J2b2-L283 (proto-illyrian)

I agree with your edit. Please understand that I usually write from work when I have some time to spare, and I often have to hurry to write replies on the forum. I cannot always word things in the best possible way.



Of course I agree with all this. I don't know why you mention the possibility that Albanians descend from a medieval Ottoman expansion. That never crossed my mind once. Albanians have hardly any Turkic/Mongoloid admixture, and their main Y-DNA lineages (E-V13, J2b1, J2b2) are rare in most of Turkey. Likewise typical Turkish lineages (G2a-M406, R1a-Z93, Q1a, N1c, E-M84, J1, many subclades of J2a1) are virtually absent from Albania.




It's hard to consider a point a view that never crossed your mind because there is no data to support it. So I didn't think it was necessary to disprove that the Albanians aren't Turks. It's just so obvious.





I admit that I don't really understand why there is so much disagreement and conflicts between Balkanic countries. Genetics show that, autosomally at least, you are all pretty close to one another. The division is more cultural and linguistic. Of course Macedonians and Serbs have more Slavic DNA, but it's still a minority of their genome compared to the local Balkanic admxiture. Just look at the Greeks. You don't see North Greeks arguing or fighting with Cretans/Aegeans or vice versa because the former have Slavic and Germanic DNA that the latter lack. Same in France. An ethnically German Alsatians can live perfectly well in peace with a ethnically Basque Gascon, an ethnically Welsh Breton or an ethnically Ligurian Niçois. Why can't you do the same in the Balkans?

Yes i know it is absurd to bring up theories of Ottoman origin for the Albanians. But in the common impression among non-albanian balkanites(those who doesn't know about genetics of course), is that Albanians are land-grabbing intruders who have nothing to do with Illyrians. And the sad part is that some of those propaganda spreaders actually use genetics superficially to support their theories.

They were even close to convincing me at one point. It was maybe 2-3 years ago, before the I2-Din clade was very known of.
I saw people everywhere posting maps of Y-DNA I2 distribution, and i even saw Albanians claiming that the Illyrians were I2(because of modern distribution), and because of that, they all believed that bosniaks and croats actually were the real Illyrians(slavizised), while E-v13 and J2b2 Albanians came from Turkey and from Egypt in modern times. Because at that time we didn't know that I2-Din had actually spread pretty recently from a common forefather 1500-2000 years ago.

And yea i agree with you in that is is not optimal that people in the balkans fight each other all the time and on every occasion.
If it was up to me we should just hold some kind of grand poll, where every village from Pelepponese to Istria to the carpathians would vote on which of the neighboring countries they want to belong to. But that is highly unrealistic in todays politics.
I also believe that the reason that the greeks don't fight each other, is that they have built a strong national identity during the last 200 years. I am a classical archeologist myself, so i practically read about greeks and romans several hours a day. And i have seen how much positive literature have been written by Germans, Englishmen, Italians, French etc. about the greek culture. And trust me, so much positive literature and glorification of one people is enough to make it so honorable to belong to that ethnicity/culture, that is is hard to convince a member of that culture to become something else. Slavs and albanians do not have that kind of strong national identity approved by all the great powers, so our leaders know that we are prone to assimilation. So that is what they do, our political leaders, they set us up against each other so they can grab land from neighboring countries, and eventually pour more money and resources into their own aristocratic class. And in the end neither the albanians nor the serbians have a say in what will happen, Russia and America fund and control these things. So what we see in the balkans is basically the "front" between russia and america(like ukrainealso is). But of course they won't use their own soldiers. And that is natural of course, the front go to be somewhere. But sometimes i just feel like the Albanians are not supported enough.
There is a great example which happened around 1650 or something. Where Venetians and Spaniards(and all other westerners of course) wanted to push the ottomans out of the balkans. But they lacked information regarding how many armies and how large a fleet the ottomans had around the balkans, and where they had them. An albanian, Antonio Bruni(or Bruti) had scouted all of the Ottoman territories in modern Albania, and he had actually figured out precisely how many ships, men, guns and ammunition would be needed to push them out. And he also had gathered large numbers of Albanians who were ready to fight off the Ottomans. But In the end, after several months of waiting for an answer, his request was denied by the other westerners. That resulted in several defeats, and expansion of the ottoman empire into Europe, and that the ottomans would stay in europe for another 300 years. That is a classic example how we albanians are always kept on front line, but never supported enough from behind.
Basically the same situation today, except that the wars are brought out on paper more than on the battlefield. The whole western world knows how albanians used to occupy the whole of western balkans, and that we still have huge numbers of albanians in the neighboring countries, but nobody does anything to stop the eastern advance towards the adriatic.
 
@Maciamo
Because we are empire killers and when there's no empire to kill we kill each other. This why the EU will never accept the core of the Balkans into the union. Shortly after accepting Croatia it has already started falling apart with the Brexit. Now that may sound ridiculous but just throwing it out there as a potential warning :rolleyes:
 
Of course I agree with all this. I don't know why you mention the possibility that Albanians descend from a medieval Ottoman expansion. That never crossed my mind once. Albanians have hardly any Turkic/Mongoloid admixture, and their main Y-DNA lineages (E-V13, J2b1, J2b2) are rare in most of Turkey. Likewise typical Turkish lineages (G2a-M406, R1a-Z93, Q1a, N1c, E-M84, J1, many subclades of J2a1) are virtually absent from Albania.

Good post.

Btw, I assume you meant R1b-L23, as J2b1 is virtually non-existant in Albanians, particularly Ghegs. So far I have observed EV13, J2b2 & R1b-L23 to be the three main lineages among Ghegs. The more you move into northern tribal Gheg territory, the less I2a1b-Din and R1a you will find. Tosks have additional I2a1b and R1a which makes them partly more similar to Vlachs(Aromanians) paternally, except that Vlachs are higher in J2b2 just like Ghegs.

When comparing these groups aDNA in let's say Eurogenes V2K15 let alone any other Gedmatch calculator, Ghegs are always noticeably more Northwestern shifted compared to Tosks who shift Southeast(again similar to Aromanians of Albania by aDNA). Tosks unsurprisingly have a higher/equal Baltic admixture combined with their more southern/eastern components while Ghegs score more North Atlantic and other North-Western components.
Ghegs seem to score slightly less West Asian compared to Tosks aswell in general though some exceptions do exist, of course.

Keep in mind an area in Montenegro called: Old Montenegro has reduced I2a1b-"Din" while the "native" Balkan(particularily EV13, then R1b-L23 & J2b2) components are elevated.
 
@Maciamo
Because we are empire killers and when there's no empire to kill we kill each other. This why the EU will never accept the core of the Balkans into the union. Shortly after accepting Croatia it has already started falling apart with the Brexit. Now that may sound ridiculous but just throwing it out there as a potential warning :rolleyes:

There is nothing to do with Empire killers. It's because this was the decision of the guy in the signature of Maciamo and many people like him. They decided the borders in the regions, but not only here, in all the world. What answer can i give to the generalizing question of Maciamo:
Why can't you do the same in the Balkans?
Maciamo, do you know that my country borders with Albanian territories inhabited since antiquity from Albanians? Who decided this? The Great Powers. Why? Because was in their interest. And they continue to do this.
And we read here in this forum, "scientific" discussions about the Berber origin of the Albanians. And when you quote an important scholar like Fallmerayer, immediately arrive the "Easter eggs", or when you quote the father of history, Herodotus, there is a glitch in the forum. Andiamo bene.
 
Good post.

Btw, J2b1 is virtually non-existant in Albanians, particularly Ghegs. So far I have observed EV13, J2b2 & R1b-L23 to be the three main lineages among Ghegs. The more you move into northern tribal Gheg territory, the less I2a1b-Din and R1a you will find. Tosks have additional I2a1b and R1a which makes them partly more similar to Vlachs(Aromanians) paternally, except that Vlachs are higher in J2b2 just like Ghegs.

When comparing these groups aDNA in let's say Eurogenes V2K15 let alone any other Gedmatch calculator, Ghegs are always noticeably more Northwestern shifted compared to Tosks who shift Southeast(again similar to Aromanians of Albania by aDNA). Tosks unsurprisingly have a higher/equal Baltic admixture combined with their more southern/eastern components while Ghegs score more North Atlantic and other North-Western components.
Ghegs seem to score slightly less West Asian compared to Tosks aswell in general though some exceptions do exist, of course.
I think he meant R1b lol
 
I think he meant R1b not J2b1
 
I am going to give everyone until 6PM Eastern Standard Time (U.S.) to delete and if they choose, copy/paste all the off-topic posts somewhere else. Then I will remove them all.
 
deleted....
 
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thanks for all the info over the last year.
 
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The Albanians are the most fascinating posters in this forum, bar none.
 
Sometimes I don't know what you're talking about I guess I don't have the quantum mind like you, but fascinating nonetheless.
 
Sometimes I don't know what you're talking about I guess I don't have the quantum mind like you, but fascinating nonetheless.

What I mean is that we are discussing samples taken by others in other countries. We are talking a lot but none is digging to find 'precious' bones home. And imagine to dna test them ....
So, we make a lot of noise, but that is it.

If it was not for some italians and croatians that went to test, Ev13 and J2b2 could have waited another century for albanias to discover them... it is so frustrating.
 
Now we've gone off the topic of the off topic from the original topic.

You're making Angelas brain sweat. Here comes the "hammer"
 
I dont understand how these posts are off topic? We are discussing if a lot of slavs are slavisized albanians?
Whether or not that is true has a huge impact on how we should interpret all that J2b2-L283 among non-albanian balkanites.
And how we interpret that has a huge impact on the arguments one can use to support the claim that J2b2-L283 is indeed Illyrian.
So as far as i see, nothing off topic here.
 
Oh yeah? Posts about Venetian Albania are on topic are they? Your logic is faulty.

@Absurdistan,

LeBrok uses the hammer. I use Athena's spear. :)

I really appreciate people with a sense of humor. You're starting to grow on me, if you understand that idiom. :) Just don't use your humor to ***** other ethnicites.
 
Great. Where is the reich video you talked about then?
 
Oh yeah? Posts about Venetian Albania are on topic are they? Your logic is faulty.

@Absurdistan,

LeBrok uses the hammer. I use Athena's spear. :)

I really appreciate people with a sense of humor. You're starting to grow on me, if you understand that idiom. :) Just don't use your humor to ***** other ethnicites.

You have to delete also this post, because here started the discussion about Albania Veneta:

16th and 17th century venetian archives stated this about montenegro ( you do know montenegro is a venetian word ) , coastal montenegro which venice ruled was ethnic dalmatians, who once spoke dalmatian, inner montenegro was controlled by 2 different ethnic family, the croatians and serbians, they had the titles of Hum and Zeta..........no mention of Bosnians, albanians or turks

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalmatian_language
 
You have to delete also this post, because here started the discussion about Albania Veneta:
Yeah. The guy came out of nowhere with offtopic discussions when it's about haplogroups.

If people are so good at dishing it out from nowhere, they better be able to take the response too.
 

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