J2b2-L283 (proto-illyrian)

[hrvat22]

....

J2b-M205 is connected to the old Kriči tribe. It is also connected to the old family of Ugrenović. So it most definitely arrived from SE.

In Croatia and Bosnia we have Vlach context, so Kriči tribe or the old family of Ugrenović doesn't mean much to us. We follow migration of Ydna branches. If it turned out that the Croatian and Bosnian branches of J2b-M205 coming from area where historically live Kriči tribe then it is a new fact which we have to take into account.

Peričić et al.

That's what we have officially. I don't think that new scientific papers would be much different as far as the percentage of E1b in the area of Kosovo is concerned.

 

[torzio]

Most ancient samples of J-L283 are in the balkans within or close to croatia. With most by the adriatic sea. Some found in sardinia. Long before any of those greek cities.
So J-L283 is indeed proto illyrian. Don't know about e-v13 subclades.

yes correct ...................the bulk come from the green part in map below



and I presume , northern Illyrians should also have some R1b-L2 ( also found in North-East Italy )

 

[broder]

Don’t agree there with him at all. Even Burmazi ended with with some R1a clade. So most likely Vlahs/Aromuns. They may be Aromuns from Albanian regions however.

 

[mount123]

yes correct ...................the bulk come from the green part in map below

Trojet has added the new Illyrian samples to the J2b-L283 aDNA map [url]https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=1luwBVUlmGoqbj7yzO2tyKKIJlvh7mtQX&hl=en_US&ll=48.74992772963409%2C27.633824999999966&z=5[/URL]. The East Adriatic J2b-L283 bulk is big and stretches from Slovenia to Albania.

 

[hrvat22]

Bruzmi (Maleschreiber) made Kriči into an Albanian tribe on Wikipedia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kriči

So Dema is proto-Albanian after all. And likely proto-Illyrian, Cetina is J2b..

Wikipedia is based on sources and we can't blame someone for editing Wikipedia articles according to sources. But that's why each of us can open a topic here about these tribes and explain what genetics says about it. If Kriči tribe ie peoples which are associated with that tribe have many or in a large percentage J2b-M205 branches then we can also talk about the possible Bulgarian and Vlach origin.

We must always know that genetics will determine the real truth, everything else is a consensus or opinion of individual historians which is not based on genetics and in reality this means that it is li-la fact, or to translate it may or may not be a fact.

 

[torzio]

Trojet has added the new Illyrian samples to the J2b-L283 aDNA map [url]https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=1luwBVUlmGoqbj7yzO2tyKKIJlvh7mtQX&hl=en_US&ll=48.74992772963409%2C27.633824999999966&z=5[/URL]. The East Adriatic J2b-L283 bulk is big and stretches from Slovenia to Albania.

thank you

I will update my copy

Does he still believe Z638 is the only albanian snp of J-L283 or ?

 

[Archetype0ne]

Courtesy of PLogan, found it interesting and it somehow still relates to L283 due to the various Cetina / MNE / ALB samples.

 

[blevins13]

republican Rome fought Teuta and the Illyrians of Montenegro ......imperial Rome fought a 4 year war against the illyrians of Dalmatia and Pannonia .............in between they had another 3 wars.

by 68AD the Illyrian race was either dead , enslaved or placed in other parts of the roman empire.

why would the Romans allow the Illyrians to sit around the lands their most important city in eastern Adriatic, ....Durres , a city created by Corinthian Greeks , a city which was the main hub of trade and transport to Constantinople ....it did not

Romans hated the Illyrians the most of any in the balkans , followed by the Thracians and Macedonians .....................it was only the Greeks they tolerated

Albanians are originally proto-dardanian and nothing else at the start ...............and like every other nation took in others as time goes by

So why Roman’s tolerated Dardanians?


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

 

[enter_tain]

The Albanians that are Illyrian off springs were indeed, those that aren't definitely not. There is a clear difference.

This is some of the most braindead shit I've read in forums. Wtf do you mean "those who are Illyrian offsprings and those that are definitely not"? Do you know how DNA works? All Albanians are admixed with one another.

This moron thinks the only ancestor he has is the Y-DNA carrier.

 

[Oroku Saki]

Don’t agree there with him at all. Even Burmazi ended with with some R1a clade. So most likely Vlahs/Aromuns. They may be Aromuns from Albanian regions however.

These are Burmazovic
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-A11460/

They are cousins of that Rytel/Rethel dude. Kosovo Serb YF016786 was really angry at me for mentioning Burmazovic back in the day. Burmaz/Burmadh was only in circulation in 14th/15th century among Albanians so no way they got this recently. Macedonian sample is of Brsjaci, while there is a Croatian Serb sample with surname Bursać. This clade seems to descend of Macedonian Berziti tribe, so some of them could have easily lived next to Albanians.

I'm not sure these Burmazovici are related to Burmazi from Herzegovina, they are from W.Serbia, they came from Plav area apparently 200, 300 years ago.

Recently I saw a Herzegovina 23andme Bosniak result of R-CTS9219 i.e. R-Z2705, and his surname is Kljako, among the Burmazi there was one cathun in 15th century run by certain Klakor, I saw somewhere in 15th century Albania Klaka surname once or twice so I hypothesized these may have been "real" Burmazi. If this Bosniak is not a recent Albanian migrant he could be connected to this cathun. Bosniak is from Stolac, came from Nevesinje. But in late 15th century Bosnia 90 % of early Muslims were fort guards, almost all of them from SE Serbia, Bulgaria, Northern Greece, also Albania, Anatolia or even Wallachia (Ottoman defters recorded their places of origin) so its hard to guarantee, Bosniaks surely have ancestry from these people too. Burmazi were a huge tribe, in 15th century they had like 5 or 6 cathuns. Maybe the original Albanian group was small in numbers. Originally they were surely Albanian as in 1305 Burmaz had a son named Gin.

 

[mount123]

thank you
I will update my copy
Does he still believe Z638 is the only albanian snp of J-L283 or ?

You're welcome, Torzio.

Well, Z638+ is a big old subclade with many other subclades (Z1297+, Y21045+, Y27522+,...etc.). Having said that, besides, there are many Albanians that are also under various subclades of Y15058+ etc.

J2b-L283 is Proto-Illyrian first and foremost.

 

[MOESAN]

The thread's topic is about J2b-L283 and that is what blevins meant, not a macro haplogroup designation. All of what you are writing does not relate to J2b-L283 nor the data from scientific papers.


Before writing such comments and not having a clue about what the thread's topic is nor bothering to read the nomenclature of the haplogroup being discussed it would be just great not to post such baseless theories, thank you.

Thanks you well for very kind post. Just a precision : I wrote to Blevins, not to you, about the raw affirmation that Y-J2b2 was without any doubt the proto-Illyrian marker.
It is not me who is unprecise here. J2b2 is not L283, only an « ancestor ». And was present among Etruscans too, and I think, Italics and Adriatic Veneti, and so for some subclades. Surely a strong heavy enough presence in Croatia and around, at contact zones which could already be multi-ethnic spite some archeological convergences ? So without pleading against him, I think I can consider there was a big difference in time (and place?) between first J2b2 and say later Z597 by instance. My post was asking a precision of him, no more.
I cannot obtain the complementary infos about some papers, it is why I am short sometimes concerning haplo’s. BTW I see here that the Croatian group (Cetina) of the 1700-1400’s BA had already J2b2-L283 >>Y15058>...(Y15058 present among Etruscans too, according to some people), different of the Montenegro-Albanian group of roughly the same period who had L283 >>Z638>… Sure, it could be the result of forking of a same cultural primitive group. But it could be the sign of cultural separation too (linguistically, culturally) between the North and South groups. You know perhaps that the concept of ethnical unity in the Illyrian province as determined by Romans later is in debate, some scholars think that the northern part of western Balkans were linguistically more akin to Veneti. Here arguements depends on timing and on im-/possible archeologic contnuity between North Illyria and South Illyria at the mergins of BA and IA. Here I am short.
Someones about the Balkans questions seem thinking that numerous late BA cultures there were still tightly linked to one Y-haplo subclade marker. I find this without too much basis for all these southern regions, where founder effect in small group can hide previous very more variated pannel of Y-haplo’s. BTW-2, I prefer the nuanced answers of Riverman on this matter of Y-haplo’s and cultures.
Based on my lacks, I would be very glad to have all the Y-haplo’s of the BA/IA Balkans, culture by culture (and region), to see if I’m completely wrong.
& : maybe the direct link between Illyrians and Albanians ancestors is a mistake ? Only a question to myself. I do’nt wait any answer here, too dangerous !

 

[mount123]

Thanks you well for very kind post. Just a precision : I wrote to Blevins, not to you, about the raw affirmation that Y-J2b2 was without any doubt the proto-Illyrian marker.
It is not me who is unprecise here. J2b2 is not L283, only an « ancestor ». And was present among Etruscans too, and I think, Italics and Adriatic Veneti, and so for some subclades. Surely a strong heavy enough presence in Croatia and around, at contact zones which could already be multi-ethnic spite some archeological convergences ? So without pleading against him, I think I can consider there was a big difference in time (and place?) between first J2b2 and say later Z597 by instance. My post was asking a precision of him, no more.
I cannot obtain the complementary infos about some papers, it is why I am short sometimes concerning haplo’s. BTW I see here that the Croatian group (Cetina) of the 1700-1400’s BA had already J2b2-L283 >>Y15058>...(Y15058 present among Etruscans too, according to some people), different of the Montenegro-Albanian group of roughly the same period who had L283 >>Z638>… Sure, it could be the result of forking of a same cultural primitive group. But it could be the sign of cultural separation too (linguistically, culturally) between the North and South groups. You know perhaps that the concept of ethnical unity in the Illyrian province as determined by Romans later is in debate, some scholars think that the northern part of western Balkans were linguistically more akin to Veneti. Here arguements depends on timing and on im-/possible archeologic contnuity between North Illyria and South Illyria at the mergins of BA and IA. Here I am short.
Someones about the Balkans questions seem thinking that numerous late BA cultures there were still tightly linked to one Y-haplo subclade marker. I find this without too much basis for all these southern regions, where founder effect in small group can hide previous very more variated pannel of Y-haplo’s. BTW-2, I prefer the nuanced answers of Riverman on this matter of Y-haplo’s and cultures.
Based on my lacks, I would be very glad to have all the Y-haplo’s of the BA/IA Balkans, culture by culture (and region), to see if I’m completely wrong.
& : maybe the direct link between Illyrians and Albanians ancestors is a mistake ? Only a question to myself. I do’nt wait any answer here, too dangerous !

I am sorry if my earlier comment came across as condescending, that wasn’t my intention.

The thread's topic is J2b-L283 and that is what blevins meant by saying „J2b2“, so that is what I pointed out two pages ago. Z638+ and Y15058+ are clades of the same haplogroup which is J2b-L283 and all essentially stem from Proto-Illyrian Cetina (oldest dating in one sample is from 2500 BCE most are 2000-1600 BCE,… etc.) and Dinaric Culture sites hence being related. They were found in the same archeological context and next to parental markers have the same auDNA profile too, so there is no doubt about that.

The mentioned East Adriatic EBA/MBA/IA complex expanded also into the Western Adriatic and Central Mediterranean and all trace their ultimate ancestry to the Western Balkans, that is what the Reich paper actually acknowledged. It was clearly also present in other cultures where they merged with different groups of people, a process that occurred especially in border zones, so that is a correct statement. The Balkans in totality were very diverse in the LCA/EBA whilst EBA Cetina and its successor Dinaric culture were centered in the East Adriatic, there were clearly also other cultures in the Balkans, that goes without saying. But then again these are irrelevant to the thread’s topic.

 

[Wanderer]

republican Rome fought Teuta and the Illyrians of Montenegro ......imperial Rome fought a 4 year war against the illyrians of Dalmatia and Pannonia .............in between they had another 3 wars.

by 68AD the Illyrian race was either dead , enslaved or placed in other parts of the roman empire.

why would the Romans allow the Illyrians to sit around the lands their most important city in eastern Adriatic, ....Durres , a city created by Corinthian Greeks , a city which was the main hub of trade and transport to Constantinople ....it did not

Romans hated the Illyrians the most of any in the balkans , followed by the Thracians and Macedonians .....................it was only the Greeks they tolerated

Albanians are originally proto-dardanian and nothing else at the start ...............and like every other nation took in others as time goes by

Illyrians were used int the roman military. When the illyrian revolt occurred illyrians many were enslaved and dispersed from illyria. That doesn't mean they were extinct which is rediculous. Would be like argueing jews were extinct for over a thousand years because there was no isrealie state.

But before that illyrians settled in southern rome so some were assimilated into roman Identity, forgetting their more ancient illyrian or proto illyrian roots. With that said they were suppodely illyrian roman emperors. This would happen to other J-L283 outside the balkans. Albanians are probably the only decendants who kept their pelasgic language majorily intact. Dardanians were illyrians

The Dardani (/ˈdɑːrdənaɪ/; Ancient Greek: Δαρδάνιοι, Δάρδανοι; Latin: Dardani) or Dardanians were a Paleo-Balkan people, who lived in a region that was named Dardania after their settlement there.[1][2] They were among the oldest Balkan peoples, and their society was very complex.[3] The Dardani were the most stable and conservative ethnic element among the peoples of the central Balkans, retaining for several centuries an enduring presence in the region.[4][5]

Strabo and Appian explicitly referred to them as Illyrians.[6] Strabo, in particular – also mentioning Galabri and Thunatae as Dardanian tribes – describes the Dardani as one of the three strongest Illyrian peoples, the other two being the Ardiaei and Autariatae.[7][8] Dardanians were an 'Illyrian' people[9][10] but not in the same sense of the word as those tribes/peoples dwelling in the central and southern coast of the eastern Adriatic Sea and its hinterland.[11] They shared the same origins and culture with them but they had developed their own distinct social-political formation in Dardania.[12] Dardanians were also related to the Thracians and to Asia Minor.[9] Classical ethnography linked them with the Dardanoi of Troy[13] The ethnic frontier between Dardanians and Thracians was located on the South Morava (ancient Margus) up to the Danube to the north, splitting in two parts the Dardanian region, with the eastern part significantly "thracianized" at a later date.[6] The Thracian tribe to the east of the Dardanians were the Maedi.[14]

I am not an expert on illyrian history but I understand that illyrians weren't just a single ethnicity of peoples. It was a different set of people in the balkans that greeks just labeled as illyrians. And some of them became hellanized but they werent originally greeks or hellens. Also the illyrians did inhabit the adriatic and regions where ancient J-L283 were found in the balkans or near them so its not far fetched to come to the conclusion that J-L283 is illyrian and that albanians were related or decended from them since J-L283 is unusually high in Albanian population. Or at least much more higher than other populations.

 

[mount123]

I am not an expert on illyrian history but I understand that illyrians weren't just a single ethnicity of peoples. It was a different set of people in the balkans that greeks just labeled as illyrians. And some of them became hellanized but they werent originally greeks or hellens. Also the illyrians did inhabit the adriatic and regions where ancient J-L283 were found in the balkans or near them so its not far fetched to come to the conclusion that J-L283 is illyrian and that albanians were related or decended from them since J-L283 is unusually high in Albanian population. Or at least much more higher than other populations.

Modern Albanians obviously stem from more than one or two ancient Balkan groups and that, too, as a topic is clearly more appropriate for another thread. "Pelasgians" have nothing to do with any of this, not sure how you managed to bring those up, since they have nothing to do with the East Adriatic whatsoever.

PS: Dardania as a territory is a meeting place for more than two BA/IA complexes and especially the East and many other toponyms are rather regarded as being of Thracian origin, just to name one component of that landscape.

 

[enter_tain]

Modern Albanians obviously stem from more than one or two ancient Balkan groups and that, too, as a topic is clearly more appropriate for another thread. "Pelasgians" have nothing to do with any of this, not sure how you managed to bring those up, since they have nothing to do with the East Adriatic whatsoever.

PS: Dardania as a territory is a meeting place for more than two BA/IA complexes and especially the East and many other toponyms are rather regarded as being of Thracian origin, just to name one component of that landscape.

Your lack of knowledge of archeology, genetics and linguistics is truly ******* appalling.

The Albanian language is not a "hybrid". There are consistent laws that trace it back to PIE. You insist on "hybrids" for your own agenda, when nothing indicates this so far.

We have everything pinpointing to Illyrian-Albanian continuity, including autosomal DNA now, and you and a few people are butthurt that EV13 only became big during Ottoman times. You fail to realize that Albanians numbered in the hundreds of thousands at the most up until a century ago, and patrilineal clans shift.

 

[Wanderer]

Thanks you well for very kind post. Just a precision : I wrote to Blevins, not to you, about the raw affirmation that Y-J2b2 was without any doubt the proto-Illyrian marker.
It is not me who is unprecise here. J2b2 is not L283, only an « ancestor ». And was present among Etruscans too, and I think, Italics and Adriatic Veneti, and so for some subclades. Surely a strong heavy enough presence in Croatia and around, at contact zones which could already be multi-ethnic spite some archeological convergences ? So without pleading against him, I think I can consider there was a big difference in time (and place?) between first J2b2 and say later Z597 by instance. My post was asking a precision of him, no more.
I cannot obtain the complementary infos about some papers, it is why I am short sometimes concerning haplo’s. BTW I see here that the Croatian group (Cetina) of the 1700-1400’s BA had already J2b2-L283 >>Y15058>...(Y15058 present among Etruscans too, according to some people), different of the Montenegro-Albanian group of roughly the same period who had L283 >>Z638>… Sure, it could be the result of forking of a same cultural primitive group. But it could be the sign of cultural separation too (linguistically, culturally) between the North and South groups. You know perhaps that the concept of ethnical unity in the Illyrian province as determined by Romans later is in debate, some scholars think that the northern part of western Balkans were linguistically more akin to Veneti. Here arguements depends on timing and on im-/possible archeologic contnuity between North Illyria and South Illyria at the mergins of BA and IA. Here I am short.
Someones about the Balkans questions seem thinking that numerous late BA cultures there were still tightly linked to one Y-haplo subclade marker. I find this without too much basis for all these southern regions, where founder effect in small group can hide previous very more variated pannel of Y-haplo’s. BTW-2, I prefer the nuanced answers of Riverman on this matter of Y-haplo’s and cultures.
Based on my lacks, I would be very glad to have all the Y-haplo’s of the BA/IA Balkans, culture by culture (and region), to see if I’m completely wrong.
& : maybe the direct link between Illyrians and Albanians ancestors is a mistake ? Only a question to myself. I do’nt wait any answer here, too dangerous !

It might infer that etruscans may be related to proto illyrians.
Don't know if albanian language is related to etruscan or not but the fact that J-L283 would be in both populations infers that they have common origins.

 

[enter_tain]

It might infer that etruscans may be related to proto illyrians.
Don't know if albanian language is related to etruscan or not but the fact that J-L283 would be in both populations infers that they have common origins.

It is not? Etruscan is a non-Indo-European language.

The Albanian language is related to Messapic though, which represent an early Illyrian migration into Italy, and some of them have JL283.

 

[mount123]

We have everything pinpointing to Illyrian-Albanian continuity, including autosomal DNA now, and you and a few people are butthurt that EV13 only became big during Ottoman times. You fail to realize that Albanians numbered in the hundreds of thousands at the most up until a century ago, and patrilineal clans shift.

I am going to ignore the name calling. I was actually going to ignore such posts but you seem to repeat the same non evidential stuff all the time. There is no scientific data to suggest that E1b-V13 "became big during Ottoman times", that claim is easily refutable. There is also no comment on Albanian linguistics made by me here and better so since that does not relate to the discussion of this thread.

Have a good night.

 

[enter_tain]

There is no scientific data to suggest that E1b-V13 "became big during Ottoman times"

The data that just came out that showed Greeks/Albanians/Serbs/Romanians with 0 EV13 during Medieval times or otherwise is non-scientific? Go to Rrenjet and have them explain to you how most Kosovars with high EV-13 are just expansions of northern Albanians in recent times.

Your brain still can't wrap its head around the concept of founder effects. All Y-DNAs experience founder effect, including J2B2-L283 and R1b-Z2103 or L51. You just want EV13 to have a Pan-Balkan founder effect in Antiquity when this is not the case.

L51 was nowhere to be found and then it pops up.

J2B2-L283 was nowhere to be found and then it pops up.

This is how Y-DNA works. EV13 was just a later bloom.

There is also no comment on Albanian linguistics made by me here and better so since that does not relate to the discussion of this thread.

Have a good night.

No, no, it does relate to it. Hybrid people = Hybrid Language. The Albanian language isn't a hybrid language. It has a certain of derivation rules that tie it back to PIE.