J2b2-L283 (proto-illyrian)

[mount123]

Enter_tain, seek some psychological help, you've been opening nearly 50 puppet accounts over the past time and derailing a bunch of threads with pseudo scientific garbage. Stop evading your ban.

This thread is not about Albanians and R1b-Z2103, it is about J2b-L283.

Also, learn about them time frames you stubborn troll: Yamnaya 3300–2600 BC

The due to be published J2b-L283 sample from Moldova is dated at 4500-3500 BCE with the median age being ~4000 BCE. It is not a Yamnaya sample and has no affiliation with that culture whatsoever.

This lunatic is posting under yet another sock and spamming a bunch of threads.

 

[torzio]

new info with narrative

https://phylogeographer.com/j2b-l283/

 

[mount123]

I see Yfull has been contacted by some people to post certain Southern Arc LBA Greece, LIA Albania etc. samples and they are in the process of being uploaded.

Perhaps some here could do the same for our multiple ancient J2b-L283 samples considering besides two all of them have not been uploaded even though in some the coverage is even better than other samples that have been uploaded.

These would be quite important especially the first one as it is Y91 and our first ancient sample in this branch:

ID I5723 HRV_IA Sv. Križ Brdovečki, Croatia ~514-391 BCE J2b-L283>Z622>YP91>YP153>FT185586

ID I16253 IA Çinamak, Albania ~658-403 BCE J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297>Z1295>Y21878>CTS11100>Y37121

Not to forget all of the inland and coastal Croatian samples of whom there too are some that should be more than okay to be uploaded.

 

[mount123]

Speaking of Southern Arc:

The Southern Arc paper had a section in which they addressed supposed „lineages of great frequency within certain regions“ they did not say anything about J2b-L283. Heck, they did not even name it as a nomenclature. They just had a vague text on the side and talked it off with micro subclades without even mentioning the significance of this lineage both in frequency and diversity for the Bronze and Iron Age Western Balkans, namely EBA Cetina and its late phase Dinaric -> Classical Illyrians.

These three low coverage samples are likely J2b-L283 as well, they are not on the aDNA map. Given the designation of two being at least M102, one M172 and the archaeogenetic context it is quite clear that they are more than highly likely J2b-L283 too:

I19031

2000-1600 BCE

HRV_Cetina_BA_outlier

Cetina Valley

Croatia

43.9672237​

16.4326708​

1240K

1​

0.015​

17477​

M

n/a (no relatives detected)

Lazaridis caller (12/6/2020) based on Yfull 8.09 running directly on the bam

J-M102

J2

J1c1

[0.976,0.993]

0.192​

0.4​

n/a (<200 SNPs)

ss.half

S19031.Y1.E2.L1

PASS

I19026

2000-1600 BCE

HRV_Cetina_BA

Cetina Valley

Croatia

43.9672237​

16.4326708​

1240K

2​

0.043​

47377​

M

n/a (no relatives detected)

Lazaridis caller (12/6/2020) based on Yfull 8.09 running directly on the bam

J-M102

J2

J1c1

[0.967,0.987]

0.11​

0.35154827​

n/a (<200 SNPs)

ss.half,ss.half

S19026.Y1.E1.L1,S19026.Y1.E2.L1

PASS

I14499

1450-1250 BCE

MNE_LBA_1d.rel_I13168

Velika Gruda

Montenegro

42.366667​

18.733333​

1240K

1​

0.01195​

13864​

M

Montenegro, Velika Gruda Family A (6 members) (I13777 and I13169 are brothers. Both are either sons of or brothers of I13776 (who is a 2nd or 3rd degree relative of I13168). Both are also 2nd or 3rd degree relatives of I13775, I13168, and I14499 (who is also a 1st degree relative of I13168))

Lazaridis caller (12/6/2020) based on Yfull 8.09 running directly on the bam

J2

J2

H3z1

[0.949,0.996]

0.147​

0.371​

n/a (<200 SNPs)

ds.half

S14499.E1.L1

PASS

In comparison there have been lineages with miniscule percentages amongst the SA samples and got an exaggeration of a „high frequency“ text in the supplementary info. Imagine having an elephant of data right in front of your eyes and not naming it. Harvard, Harvard...

 

[Archetype0ne]

Some findings from the upcoming Skourtanioti et al paper in this video:

According to the presentation it's coming to be published in the journal "Nature Ecology & Evolution" soon.

Interesting paper coming out.

Three related J2b-L283 samples from MLBA (ca. 1600-1450 BCE) Mycenaean Mygdalia in Arcadia!

 

[mount123]

Ancient DNA reveals admixture history and endogamy in the prehistoric Aegean

Skourtanioti et. al. 2022: https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/browser/view/PRJEB56216

Three MLBA J2b-L283 samples from Mygdalia, Arcadia, Greece. Just shows these Cetina guys really did not miss one IMO beautiful place
From the presentation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTqGXZksFZw


​(Edit: relevant post already shared above)

 

[mount123]

Edit: Going over this again it should be 4 J2b-L283 samples. The first guy seems to have three boys with two different women: so MYG 001 and MYG 008 both share the same MtDNA next to the Y.

 

[Wanderer]

I knew ancient J-L283 would be found in eastern medditernean emoji41]
Its all making sense.
Medditernean island and coastal connection

Sardinia, corsica, sicily, Ancient adriatic
Adriatic coast, southern italy daunian, etruscan, and now mycenean
Which would definitely have decendants on the islands as they colonized them anyways.

 

[Wanderer]

Skourtanioti et. al. 2022: https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/browser/view/PRJEB56216

Three MLBA J2b-L283 samples from Mygdalia, Arcadia, Greece. Just shows these Cetina guys really did not miss one IMO beautiful place
From the presentation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTqGXZksFZw


​(Edit: relevant post already shared above)

What subclades are they? I will have to watch the video later

This is cool news [emoji41]

 

[mount123]

What subclades are they? I will have to watch the video later

This is cool news [emoji41]

The paper hasn't been published yet. But when it is or prior to its publication the sample files are uploaded I'm sure Trojet or anyone else knowledgable in YDNA analysis will let us know.

Will be interesting to know, am rooting for >Y21045+ (I know very altruistic haha), >Y27522+ or >Z8421+. Yes, cool but also not too surprising considering EBA Cetina type ceramics have been found in the Peloponnese.

Some good insights on Early Bronze Age Cetina culture:

https://www.academia.edu/36936788/T...lennium_BC_new_data_and_research_perspectives

https://uni-tuebingen.de/en/fakulta...-bw/research/current-projects/cetina-project/

https://www.academia.edu/42625481/S...d_transitional_periods_in_Adriatic_prehistory (Cetina from page 124)


Map posted on the other forum:

Interesting is the presence also in the Ionian Islands, thinking of the modern Kefallonian J2b-L283>Z1297>Y23094>YP26 and generally "supposed" basal Y23094 and the Southern Italians (Calabria, Sicilians about whom Hunter talked in his recent video) that will be added on the Yfull tree. The pattern is really clear by now: it always and ultimately goes back to EBA Cetina.

 

[Wanderer]

The paper hasn't been published yet. But when it is or prior to its publication the sample files are uploaded I'm sure Trojet or anyone else knowledgable in YDNA analysis will let us know.

Will be interesting to know, am rooting for >Y21045+ (I know very altruistic haha), >Y27522+ or >Z8421+. Yes, cool but also not too surprising considering EBA Cetina type ceramics have been found in the Peloponnese.

Some good insights on Early Bronze Age Cetina culture:

https://www.academia.edu/36936788/T...lennium_BC_new_data_and_research_perspectives

https://uni-tuebingen.de/en/fakulta...-bw/research/current-projects/cetina-project/

https://www.academia.edu/42625481/S...d_transitional_periods_in_Adriatic_prehistory (Cetina from page 124)


Map posted on the other forum:

Interesting is the presence also in the Ionian Islands, thinking of the modern Kefallonian J2b-L283>Z1297>Y23094>YP26 and generally "supposed" basal Y23094 and the Southern Italians (Calabria, Sicilians about whom Hunter talked in his recent video) that will be added on the Yfull tree. The pattern is really clear by now: it always and ultimately goes back to EBA Cetina.

Its said that the dorians invaded the pellopenese and established themselves so does this mean dorians had some adriatic ancestors? Not all of em but some that had J-L283? Maybe they were mix of different tribes including cetina. Or maybe the Y haplo make up was different for early dorians?
Its said they migrated from north western I believe but not sure.
Or would these be pelasgian peoples before dorians?

 

[Wanderer]

Ah nevermind. These are before the dorian invasian. Says online the dorian invasian was 1100BC.

 

[TaktikatEMalet]

Its said that the dorians invaded the pellopenese and established themselves so does this mean dorians had some adriatic ancestors? Not all of em but some that had J-L283? Maybe they were mix of different tribes including cetina. Or maybe the Y haplo make up was different for early dorians?
Its said they migrated from north western I believe but not sure.
Or would these be pelasgian peoples before dorians?

Dorians and sea peoples invaded mycenaean greece after 1200bc and were probably v13, these samples are dated to 1600bc. These j2b l283 are proper fully fledged mycenaeans and may explain the indo european input as r1b so far is lacking in ancient greece

 

[torzio]

Its said that the dorians invaded the pellopenese and established themselves so does this mean dorians had some adriatic ancestors? Not all of em but some that had J-L283? Maybe they were mix of different tribes including cetina. Or maybe the Y haplo make up was different for early dorians?
Its said they migrated from north western I believe but not sure.
Or would these be pelasgian peoples before dorians?

a few decades ago the story was .......

Since Dorians, conquered the mycenaen islands ( crete , rhodes, etc, etc ) and anatolian cities as well, they had to have lived on the coast to have a fleet...............the logical scenario is that they came from modern Montenegro and northern Albania.

How else did the conquer all these islands

 

[torzio]

These are some of your posts:








From some of your posts in this thread: eupedia.com/forum/threads/42499-Ancient-balkan-states-Y-DNA?p=646487&viewfull=1#post646487


So according to this dude J2b2-L283 has nothing to do with Albanians despite it is found the highest in Albanians together with R1b-Z2103 which have been found together or in same sites across the Balkans and in Iron Age Albania, in Maros, Vucedol we have R1b-Z2103, believed to be a proto-Illyrian culture, Cetina where a bunch of J2b2-L283 was post-Vucedol culture.

Same maggot that claimed Cetina culture wasn't proto-Illyrian. Now claims all Illyrians were J2b2-L283 based on few samples from 1-2 tribes across the Adriatic yet Macedonia and Albania which was inhabited by Illyrians lots of R1b.. Nothing links E-V13 to some proto-Albanians. It's not even an IE marker. I am thinking this dude is either some minority Shqipfoles such as Serb, Bulgarian or something with an Albanian Y-DNA or just some confused moron.

We all know who you are and your agenda you little maggot. Every Albanian here except for these two little sissy boys of yours know you are trash. Keep coming here and pretend like you know every subject and accuse everyone of spreading pseudo scientific trash which is exactly what you do.

the only albanians who have "illyrian" via J-L283 are the ones that migrated south from the northern-balkans ( croatia or slovenia )

 

[torzio]

Some more of your posts in that same thread:





I am pretty sure this guy is not Albanian or even a real Albanian. Want me to believe some dude like you is Albanian and is being objective on genetic and historical matters. Just look at his posts in that thread. No arguments whatsoever , just calling people slurs and claiming they are spreading pseudo scientific garbage.


Keep playing internet warrior but even internet warriors have their end of days. Don't you worry about that. Now that we found two of the most common Albanian Y-DNA in Albania I wonder what this little maggot says now + tribal name en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanoi

he seems to be a pure Albanian from Kosovo.......

 

[torzio]

he seems to be a pure Albanian from Kosovo.......

oops...meant he was a Kosovian and not an Albanian

 

[mount123]

oops...meant he was a Kosovian and not an Albanian

The user "Okoi" is a puppet account of an already multiple times banned user. It would be great leaving out discussions about my or the personal background of other people out of this thread as it is hindering to the information flow related to the thread's topic. Also, it is not really a respectful manner IMO. Neither am I really able to understand why there was the need for you to feed a "conversation" with this individual by posting another three posts addressed at him.

But just a clarification: Kosovan(r) means someone that is of Kosovan nationality and meant as a regional Albanian demonym (alb. Kosovar) just as one would call an Albanian from Mirdita alb. Mirditor or within Kosovo for example someone from Peja alb. Pejan.

Anyways let's respect the thread's topic and focus on the interesting and exciting news about it!

Edit: if the Moderators go through this thread and ban "Okoi" which is yet another puppet account of that already banned user it would be great also deleting my or other users' posts addressed at him, this post included. Thanks in advance.

 

[mount123]

The paper hasn't been published yet. But when it is or prior to its publication the sample files are uploaded I'm sure Trojet or anyone else knowledgable in YDNA analysis will let us know.

Will be interesting to know, am rooting for >Y21045+ (I know very altruistic haha), >Y27522+ or >Z8421+. Yes, cool but also not too surprising considering EBA Cetina type ceramics have been found in the Peloponnese.

Some good insights on Early Bronze Age Cetina culture:

https://www.academia.edu/36936788/T...lennium_BC_new_data_and_research_perspectives

https://uni-tuebingen.de/en/fakulta...-bw/research/current-projects/cetina-project/

https://www.academia.edu/42625481/S...d_transitional_periods_in_Adriatic_prehistory (Cetina from page 124)


Map posted on the other forum:

Interesting is the presence also in the Ionian Islands, thinking of the modern Kefallonian J2b-L283>Z1297>Y23094>YP26 and generally "supposed" basal Y23094 and the Southern Italians (Calabria, Sicilians about whom Hunter talked in his recent video) that will be added on the Yfull tree. The pattern is really clear by now: it always and ultimately goes back to EBA Cetina.

Catanzaro, Calabria
Reggio Calabria, Calabria
Catania, Sicily
Milicia, Sicily

 

[Wanderer]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelasgus_of_Argos

These J-L283 would be pelasgians

In The Suppliants
Edit
In Aeschylus' play The Suppliants[4][5] the Danaïdes fleeing from Egypt seek asylum from King Pelasgus of Argos, who rules a broad territory bordered by the territory of the Paeonians to the north, the Strymon (river) to the east, and Dodona, the slopes of the Pindus mountains, and the sea to the west;[6], that is, a territory including or north of the Thessalian Pelasgiotis. The southern boundary is not mentioned; however, Apis is said to have come to Argos from Naupactus "on the farther shore," (on the north coast of the Gulf of Corinth) [7] implying that Pelasgus' kingdom includes all of Greece from the north of Thessaly west of the Strymon to the shores of Peloponnesian Argos where the Danaïdes landed. He claims to rule the Pelasgians and to be the "child of Palaichthon ('ancient earth') whom the earth brought forth."

The Danaïdes call the country the "Apian hills" and claim that it understands the karbana audan,[8][9] which many translate as "barbarian speech" but Karba (where live the Karbanoi) is in fact a non-Greek word. They claim to descend from ancestors in ancient Argos even though they are of a "dark race" (melanthes... genos).[10] Pelasgus admits that the land was once called Apia but compares them to the women of Libya and Egypt[11] and wants to know how they can be from Argos on which they cite descent from Io.

In a lost play by Aeschylus, Danaan Women, he defines the original homeland of the Pelasgians as the region around Mycenae.[12]

Pelasgians were the original Mycenean greeks. Not e1b greeks it seems.
Cetina J-L283 would be one of the Ancestors the real original greeks in the time of persues ( he was egyptian though also)
Pelasgians stretched all the way to Paeonians plains which would definitely include J-L283 at that time. And they also existed at the time acleus, son of amphytron and alcmene (also of egyptian decent) who took the name after The original Egyptian heracles. He existed around 1300 BC and these samples are older than that.

Maybe e1b came from ancient egypt thats why they show up more later.