J2b2-L283 (proto-illyrian)

Your closest STR match is someone with a Spanish sounding surname. Forget about fantasizing of Phoenicians, Carthagenians, etc. There is practically zero L283 in those regions. The only L283 cluster in Lebanon has Balkan/European origin, as has been demonstrated to you here countless of times. You are either not bright enough to get it, or you refuse to accept it. There can be 5000 Lebanese who are J-FGC64029, the fact of the matter is they all share a very recent ancestor who lived ~1900 ybp, the Phoenicians had basically disappeared by then. And these guys are not even in your clade.

And WTH is this talk about "Georgians"? The two ancient samples were not even from modern day Georgia. The MBA sample was from southernmost Russia, the other was from LBA Armenia. Regardless, neither of them are in the J-Z600 branch, where you are, as both of them are negative for Z627 as you can see here: https://j2-m172.info/links/scientific-papers/#ancient

So your closest matches remain all those who are under J-Z600. All four parallel J-Z600 lines are European. One of them is formed by your sample. The Istanbul sample is technically a border region between Balkans and Anatolia (nevermind he has a Greek surname). The third parallel line, J-YP157, should have a TMRCA going well into the bronze age as the Sardinians samples share only 4 SNPs amongst themselves. Finally, the fourth parallel line, J-Z585, has a TMRCA of ~5400 ybp with all European basal samples as well. So your ancestors were most likely in Europe before the Phoenicians were even mentioned. So I agree with Dema here, you should be looking at some Roman legions from Balkans or Italy as your ancestors who colonized Iberria. (Mainland Italy, like the Balkans, is highly under tested).
My closest STR is someone from spain from 5400 ybp. Sure .... when I am Jz627 minus every other single mutation after jz600. And z586

The Lebanese J-L283 likely has less snp differences than the spaniard one.
What is his subclade? And kit number? Because I Have 0 Str matches except
for the other new world hispanic.

The closest STR matches I have after that are only at a Y 12 level and they only test 12 str markers. Even at 24 generations I dont get 100 percent match. How can I be a match at j z627 within a thousand years with some thats for example

Z585 J-Z585 >J-Z615 >J-Z2507 > J-Z597 > J-Z638 >J-Z1296>J-Z1297>J-Z8421 > J-Z1295> J-Z8421> J-Z631 >J-Z1043> J-Y26712>J-Z8424> J-Z8429> J-Z39653J > CTS11760 >J-Y81358

You know what the why str match maker gives me at y 12?
91 percent match even at 24 generations average thats 600 years ago. We dont have a common ancestor for 600 years. Com on dude. Its 5400 years ybp back in georgia times.
The sardinians were dropped off there at sardinia after 5400 which is why they have

J-Y15058 at 2400bc. It was kura axes culture that was absorbed by phonecians near the end of its collapse at 2000BC. If not it was carians or leleges

Theres no basal jz600 mainland samples. Its all sardinian and a turk.
Except georgians and armenians.

Honestly theres a better chance its straight from georgian or armenian from recently within 1000 years ago than mainland european clade
 


J2-L283 in most part extended to Sardinia probably thru Italy and Balkans in Illyrian/Italic-Roman time, and your clade colonised Caribbean Sea with Spanish colonies in 16 and 17 century.

There is almost no chance there was J2-L283 in Caribbean Sea prior to Spanish colonies...
 
Just want to remind or inform everyone that the fast majority of Levanites/Arabs in South America have adopted Spanish lastnames. From my experience the majority are Lebanese/Syrians/Egyptians.

So that L283 is most likely one of them and not a Spaniard.

Mind you that many of what we call Latina beauties are actually Lebanese girls with Euro and local admix.
 
Just want to remind or inform everyone that the fast majority of Levanites/Arabs in South America have adopted Spanish lastnames. From my experience the majority are Lebanese/Syrians/Egyptians.

So that L283 is most likely one of them and not a Spaniard.

Mind you that many of what we call Latina beauties are actually Lebanese girls with Euro and local admix.


Even if this is true i don't see what J2-L283 has to do with Levantines or Arabs as its spread with Indo-Europeans, particularly in Bronze Age.
It has TMRCA 5400 ybp and its dispersed among all European countries, even if you find it in Levant, it is for sure European expansion, often neglectable in MENA countries in sense of diversity or distribution percentage.

L283 has best and probably only chance to reach Caribbean Sea with Spanish European colonists of probably Balkan Italian or Spanish origin.


It peaks at Albanians and it has high diversity there. At least 4 or 5 branches with TMRCA 4400 ybp.


So you are obviously wrong.
 
Even if this is true i don't see what J2-L283 has to do with Levantines or Arabs as its spread with Indo-Europeans, particularly in Bronze Age.
It has TMRCA 5400 ybp and its dispersed among all European countries, even if you find it in Levant, it is for sure European expansion, often neglectable in MENA countries in sense of diversity or distribution percentage.

L283 has best and probably only chance to reach Caribbean Sea with Spanish European colonists of probably Balkan Italian or Spanish origin.


It peaks at Albanians and it has high diversity there. At least 4 or 5 branches with TMRCA 4400 ybp.


So you are obviously wrong.
So you obviously didn't understand anything I said.

The history of L283 was completely unnecessary. Nobody asked you. I'm aware of L283 being an Early IE and your M205 being a newcomer with nostalgia of your ancestral lands.

But...again, before someone else gets confused by your comment, there's MANY of those Latinos who are actually of Lebanese origin but with Spanish lastnames. Period!

If Wanderer is more related to them than to Spaniards or Albanians, then his ancestors were some of those Arabs.
 
So you obviously didn't understand anything I said.

I understood that you are completely wrong, and as usually talking nonsense.

The history of L283 was completely unnecessary.

It was necessary because you obviously didn't understand and everything you said was wrong.


Nobody asked you.

You should ask and learn, rather then be arrogant and prepotent as usual, while your knowledge genetic and history wise is on low level.

I'm aware of L283 being an Early IE and your M205 being a newcomer with nostalgia of your ancestral lands.

M205 is for sure not "newcomer". But rather ancient Mediterranean one. I dont see where are you going with this newcomer thing?


But...again, before someone else gets confused by your comment, there's MANY of those Latinos who are actually of Lebanese origin but with Spanish lastnames. Period!

This is totally irrelevant for anything we talked about here. You just jumped in with this stupid comment like it has anything with what was debated about here or with L283 in fact.



If Wanderer is more related to them than to Spaniards or Albanians, then his ancestors were some of those Arabs.

No he does not and he is not more related to them, where did you get this from? You are lying again. He has no matches at Middle Easterners. If you read better you would not spit these stupidities as usual.




I know that you were claiming ultimate stupidities before only to counter me or say against whatever i say, so its stupid to pretend like you know anything about J2, L283, M205 or this what are we debating here.

You dont know even about E-v13..

Im not letting your personal issues and problems infect this thread, so from now on you are ignored.
 
Just want to remind or inform everyone that the fast majority of Levanites/Arabs in South America have adopted Spanish lastnames. From my experience the majority are Lebanese/Syrians/Egyptians.

So that L283 is most likely one of them and not a Spaniard.

Mind you that many of what we call Latina beauties are actually Lebanese girls with Euro and local admix.

Not true. I'm from Brazil, the country with the largest number of descendants of Lebanese and Syrian immigrants in the Americas. There are countless Arab surnames in Brazil sometimes adapted to Portuguese phonology: Sarquis, Otoch, Kerbage, Jereissati, Haddad, Abdala, Sadi, Kamel, Mansur, Temer, Alckmin, Maluf, Jatene, Hoauiss, Chacra, Damous, Amin, Kassab, Damous, tc. What happens is simply that the Lebanese/Syrian descendants did not remain in closed, endogamous communities, and instead mixed extensively with the local population who had mostly Iberian surnames, so many of the descendants of Arabs also have Iberian surnames (or even only non-Arab surnames given the succession of generations,and that not all surnames are passed on to the next one) because they are in fact not just descendants of Arabs.
 
Not true. I'm from Brazil, the country with the largest number of descendants of Lebanese and Syrian immigrants in the Americas. There are countless Arab surnames in Brazil sometimes adapted to Portuguese phonology: Sarquis, Otoch, Kerbage, Jereissati, Haddad, Abdala, Sadi, Kamel, Mansur, Temer, Alckmin, Maluf, Jatene, Hoauiss, Chacra, Damous, Amin, Kassab, Damous, tc. What happens is simply that the Lebanese/Syrian descendants did not remain in closed, endogamous communities, and instead mixed extensively with the local population who had mostly Iberian surnames, so many of the descendants of Arabs also have Iberian surnames (or even only non-Arab surnames given the succession of generations,and that not all surnames are passed on to the next one) because they are in fact not just descendants of Arabs.

Maybe in brazil. They did this with french surnames sometimes. To make them sound more spanish. But with people like lebanese names I would imagine they are more likey to change the surname. They might change the name to blend in a bit better.

Especially if its early in spanish history because of the spanish reconquista ect, they probably didnt like muslims ect.
But sometimes they may not take their fathers surnames and take their mothers instead.

I have an ancestor that dropped his fathers name and kept his mothers name. His mothers name was also passed down to his children instead.
 
Not true. I'm from Brazil, the country with the largest number of descendants of Lebanese and Syrian immigrants in the Americas. There are countless Arab surnames in Brazil sometimes adapted to Portuguese phonology: Sarquis, Otoch, Kerbage, Jereissati, Haddad, Abdala, Sadi, Kamel, Mansur, Temer, Alckmin, Maluf, Jatene, Hoauiss, Chacra, Damous, Amin, Kassab, Damous, tc. What happens is simply that the Lebanese/Syrian descendants did not remain in closed, endogamous communities, and instead mixed extensively with the local population who had mostly Iberian surnames, so many of the descendants of Arabs also have Iberian surnames (or even only non-Arab surnames given the succession of generations,and that not all surnames are passed on to the next one) because they are in fact not just descendants of Arabs.
Do some research then. There's plenty of Latinos with Arab origins (obviously mixed) who have Spanish lastnames.
 
In Brazil the descendants of Syrian-Lebanese Arabs, mixed or not, with Iberians, have names and surnames phonetically adapted to Portuguese. In Brazil there is the largest Syrian-Lebanese diaspora in the Americas. The mayor of my hometown, Belo Horizonte, is a Syrian-Lebanese descendant named Elias Kalil.
 
Do some research then. There's plenty of Latinos with Arab origins (obviously mixed) who have Spanish lastnames.

Distant "Arab" (Levantine/North African) ancestry mainly brought in small amounts by Iberians does not count. Actual ethnic Arab migration to Latin America happened mostly after the 1880s and especially in the 1910s and 1920s. It's a "recent" genetic inflow in most of Latin America, the surnames are still there (do you know Menem, former president of Argentina? Menem is a Lebanese surname. Carlos Slim, the Mexican billionaire? Lebanese surname).

Also, it is just self-evident that many mixed people of Arab origins may have Spanish last names for the obvious reason that they are mixed and, therefore, they also owe much of their family history to non-Arab people, isn't it? Or would you think they would retain only their Arab surname ? It is certain that some families of Arab origin changed their surname, but it wasn't the usual practice in most places.

By the way, it seems some of you ignore the history of Arab immigration to Latin America: in fact the vast majority of them up to the 1960s were Arab Christians, not Muslims. They are among the most successful diasporas in Latin America and blended in extremely well, and that's why most of them are now mixed, so obviously many of them have non-Arab surnames (with or without their original Arab surnames, since usually only men's surnames were passed on).
 
In Brazil the descendants of Syrian-Lebanese Arabs, mixed or not, with Iberians, have names and surnames phonetically adapted to Portuguese. In Brazil there is the largest Syrian-Lebanese diaspora in the Americas. The mayor of my hometown, Belo Horizonte, is a Syrian-Lebanese descendant named Elias Kalil.

Exactly, Duarte. Maybe some Latin American nation had a different history with its Syrian/Lebanese diaspora, but at least in Brazil, Mexico and Argentina things were really different, and Syrian/Lebanese surnames are not only preserved, but sometimes even proudly showed off, since the population of (today mostly very mixed) Arab descent is among the wealthiest and most politically influential in many places. The famous names that aren't just are so numerous that I can't even remember them all. Just now I was reminded of Salma Hayek (Mexico) and Shakira Mebarak (Colombia).
 
I would advice to ignore user Nik as obviously kid is trøll and sadly represents minority of Albanian members with very vulgar behavior.
 
Formed 9600 ybp, TMRCA 5400 ybp.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-L283/




oFe4Pjg.jpg







Just to compare with J2-M205, since one group was spread with IE languages and another one with Semitic and they are both J2b-M102+, but separation time 16 000 ybp.

Formed 15800 ybp, TMRCA 5700 ybp.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-M205/


HxGBk2H.jpg
 
Do some research then. There's plenty of Latinos with Arab origins (obviously mixed) who have Spanish lastnames.
I take back the vast majority part since there's no way to prove it (although you might be right about most of them) but I stick to "plenty of Arabs with Spanish lastnames".

Carlos Roberto Flores Facussé
José Antonio Meade Kuribreña
Gaspar Henaine Pérez
Jaime Sabines Gutiérrez
Mário Jorge Lobo Zagallo
Antonio Saca
Paulina Vega
Carlos Slim Helú
Eduardo Falú
Basilio Lami Dozo
Carlos Balá
Elias Bazzi
Jorge Antonio
Alfredo Avelín
Juliana Paes
João Bosco
Rafael Leitão
Fernando Gabeira
Miguel Littin
Nicolás Massú
Jeff Becerra

How can one possibly know that these people here are of Arab descent?

Trojet simply said there was someone with a Spanish sounding lastname, so he could be anything.

To have a better idea of Wanderer's ancestor we need:
1- The full name (all 4 or 5 of them) of his closest match
2- His second and third matches

Trojet or any of us could be easily fooled by Javier Gutierrez but if we get a Javier Khalil Gutierrez Hayek then we'd know for sure.

Formed 9600 ybp, TMRCA 5400 ybp.


https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-L283/


Just to compare with J2-M205, since one group was spread with IE languages and another one with Semitic and they are both J2b-M102+, but separation time 16 000 ybp.

Formed 15800 ybp, TMRCA 5700 ybp.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-M205/


Sure, we'll compare. Ok now, dismissed!
 
I take back the vast majority part since there's no way to prove it

At least you are starting to realise the nonsense you said, that is what we call progress : )





Trojet simply said there was someone with a Spanish sounding lastname, so he could be anything.


Yes he could technically be some arabicised European but that is something else, and then as such spread to Carrebean Sea. But this is hypothesis is without any proofs or bases. Then why Levantine? You could in the same way say he could of been Chinese or Sub-Saharan African prior to expanding to Carrebean Sea, well yea, technically he could be anything, , but his more further European origin is undoubtful with its peaks in Balkan among Albanians.
But also well represented in Italy, Spain, Portugal.




To have a better idea of Wanderer's ancestor we need:
1- The full name (all 4 or 5 of them) of his closest match
2- His second and third matches

Whatever his matches are today, there is no doubt they were Europeans before, probably Balkan-Italy-Spain relation.





Sure, we'll compare. Ok now, dismissed!


Listen kid, start be respectful or i will pull your unrespectful ears so much that you will cry.


And yes, compare and learn, ancient DNA map is probably best proof of some haplogroup origin. Especially when TMRCA is about similar time with its ancient DNA finds, like its case in both J2-M205 and J2-L283.
 
Listen kid, start be respectful or i will pull your unrespectful ears so much that you will cry.
Yes, please. I'm only interested in this part. I invited you before to exchange info and phone numbers and meet.

Perhaps it seems too peaceful and childish here but I'll do my best to insult you in the worst possible way and get you really fired up to meet me and pull my ears.

You can't see from a forum profile what's inside my mind and what we want to do to Osmanlis
 
Yes, please. I'm only interested in this part. I invited you before to exchange info and phone numbers and meet.

Perhaps it seems too peaceful and childish here but I'll do my best to insult you in the worst possible way and get you really fired up to meet me and pull my ears.

You can't see from a forum profile what's inside my mind and what we want to do to Osmanlis



This is typical Ashkali behaviour, its pretty clear where you come from.

The only one who should be insulted by your vulgar behavior is your parents, because as obviously they made you and failed in any further education or manner teaching their child.
Worst of all is they even have to pay your internet bill :D

Don't bother me with low iq ideas anymore, i dont have time for North Albanian underaged Gabel that is trying to be tough on internet.


BTW do whatever you want to Osmanlis lol, 80 % of Albanians are Muslims, and almost every second Ottoman prime minister was Albanian starting with Bayezid Pasha in 1413 :D

You are 500 years Ottoman yourself, with identity crisis :D And confusion that you can thank to extreme communist regime.
 
At least you are starting to realise the nonsense you said, that is what we call progress : )








Yes he could technically be some arabicised European but that is something else, and then as such spread to Carrebean Sea. But this is hypothesis is without any proofs or bases. Then why Levantine? You could in the same way say he could of been Chinese or Sub-Saharan African prior to expanding to Carrebean Sea, well yea, technically he could be anything, , but his more further European origin is undoubtful with its peaks in Balkan among Albanians.
But also well represented in Italy, Spain, Portugal.






Whatever his matches are today, there is no doubt they were Europeans before, probably Balkan-Italy-Spain relation.








Listen kid, start be respectful or i will pull your unrespectful ears so much that you will cry.


And yes, compare and learn, ancient DNA map is probably best proof of some haplogroup origin. Especially when TMRCA is about similar time with its ancient DNA finds, like its case in both J2-M205 and J2-L283.

It wouldn't be ssa or chinese because JL283 is caucus origin from Georgia armenia region. We already know this. But we have levantine origin of a spefic basal J-L283 branch and kura axes culture is a culture that inhibited the areas of J L283.
 

This thread has been viewed 489853 times.

Back
Top