J2b2-L283 (proto-illyrian)

Wanderer said:
Not really. It just means he inherited more steppe than his mother. Doesnt mean that his father was like 80 percent steppe.
Most samples have similar ratios excect grave 211 i believe which has much more agean. None of the samples have more steppe than aegean. If it was a bunch of yanmaya men then they should have more yanmaya and low agean as was the case in spain when bell beakers invaded and displaced the neolithic farmers.
Yanmaya men would have also bought their yanmaya women which would further steppe ancestry more. This isnt like the new world where they had huge physical barriers like a huge body of water and extreme distance so they hardly bought women over. Unless you believe they sailed to adriatic
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Not at all. That’s why I pointed out in my “Mokrin Beast” post that 2 of the male samples with lower steppe and higher “Aegean” ancestry belonged to R Z2103, a dominant Yamnaya line.

By 2000 BC, there were no more samples there in the Balkans that arrived from the steppe that were rich in only CHG/EHG ancestry. All were EEF heavy via mixing with locals.
 
Polska said:
It’s going to be pretty hard to top the kidnapped Kura-Araxes kid, but then again, nothing surprises me anymore.
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Thats funny but I moved on from that since we do have more samples.
But we don't have any in the whole of Central , south and north eastern europe

I just dont believe J-L283 went through central europe and north eastern europe.

None of the ancient pre roman samples are outside of southern europe. The closest thing to being away from southern europe is the Mok 15 sample but its still in southern europe (geographically, not like ethnically by todays standards)
 
Polska said:
I’m hesitant to even refer to these people as “Aegean” because I think this is probably the same thing as EEF, or Early European Farmer, ancestry. This was the dominant ancestry component there throughout the Balkans prior to the arrival of Yamnaya rich populations.

https://www.yfull.com/mtree/U4a2/

What’s also interesting, and also highlights why I’m really hesitant to latch on to autosomal percentages when looking at a sample, is that the mother of Mokrin15 belongs to U4a2. This is an interesting looking lineage that does not look to be Aegean in origin. In fact, it looks to possibly have some sort of connection to Eastern Europe or possibly even the steppe. But obviously her maternal ancestors had been there in Serbia/Hungary area of Europe for quite a while.
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Polska said:
I’m hesitant to even refer to these people as “Aegean” because I think this is probably the same thing as EEF, or Early European Farmer, ancestry. This was the dominant ancestry component there throughout the Balkans prior to the arrival of Yamnaya rich populations.

https://www.yfull.com/mtree/U4a2/

What’s also interesting, and also highlights why I’m really hesitant to latch on to autosomal percentages when looking at a sample, is that the mother of Mokrin15 belongs to U4a2. This is an interesting looking lineage that does not look to be Aegean in origin. In fact, it looks to possibly have some sort of connection to Eastern Europe or possibly even the steppe. But obviously her maternal ancestors had been there in Serbia/Hungary area of Europe for quite a while.
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Later i have to look more in depth at the male samples when I get on my desktop
But id:SSG_M26CHN is about as old as as
MOK15SRB and its in xinjiang china [emoji2962] whut the hell.

id:I7278CZE [CZ-ST]
Is even older in central europe.
Czechia stredocesky krak

Perhaps he is maternally steppe. Thats why he has steppe. Not paternally steppe necessarily.

https://www.yfull.com/mtree/U4a2c2*/

Is in great britain 1000 BC

More chinese?
https://www.yfull.com/mtree/U4a2l/

This is obviously a maternal yanmaya clade because its spread to far from central europe to china amd Kazakhstan

See this is maternal steppe. Its all over. Wide geographical distance. Unlike J-L283 which is confined to southern europe and the medditernean
 
Polska said:
View attachment 13604

https://imgur.com/a/uYLCEpr

I just realized something interesting regarding Mokrin 15, thanks to Wanderer’s rambling. Mokrin15 is grave 163. But they also discovered Mokrin15’s mother in the same burial complex. She is grave 181. Well have a look at their ancestry components. Grave 181 (his mom ) has a higher Aegean Farmer component and a lower Steppe component. This can only mean that Mokrin15 inherited his higher than average steppe component from his father. So his J2b L283 Z615 father must have been high steppe. So in the case of his parents, his steppe ancestry was more paternally derived, while his Aegean farmer ancestry was more maternally derived.
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Polska said:
It’s a bit of a head scratcher because that Henry Shephard, who was one of the authors from the Southern Arc study, explicitly mentions that bone samples were sent from Purcari, Moldova and Giurgiulesti, Moldova to Harvard’s Reich Lab for sequencing to be included in that study. These are very high profile burials. Purcari is a Usatovo burial dating back to 3500 BC. Skeleton was about 2.15 meters tall. Giurgiulesti is thought to be Suvorovo Novodanilovka. Family of 5, kurgan, high status burial, with possible sacrifice of the wife/mother. Dates to about 4100/4200 BC. These skeletons were more gracile in appearance, so possibly admixed with Old Europe groups.
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Thanks for the insights in regards to Mokrin and those Copper Age samples from Eastern Europe.
 
Get these samples examined ( the skeletons for dna testing and haplogroup)

 
I came across this image
Does anyone know if the stele of Iapygians actually were like the ones in this cropped photo?
I cant find a source talking about it. Not the body, the head portions
They look like the giant sardianian statues. If this is true then sardinians and coastal and mainland llyrians are one and the same
One of the items even has the horned helmets like in the sardinian small figures
7e595af7741de155d4f984725731127d.jpg
 
Wanderer said:
I came across this image
Does anyone know if the stele of Iapygians actually were like the ones in this cropped photo?
I cant find a source talking about it. Not the body, the head portions
They look like the giant sardianian statues. If this is true then sardinians and coastal and mainland llyrians are one and the same
One of the items even has the horned helmets like in the sardinian small figures
7e595af7741de155d4f984725731127d.jpg
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Firstly ......Iapygian was the Greek name only used for the Messapians ........the Daunians and Peucetii where still referred to as the Iapodes ( same as north croatian tribe )
in your pictures ....only the woman, the head of the man next to her and the item ( bottom row , third from the right ) are Messapic .............majority of the other pictures are Daunian
Recent work by Croatian archaeologists who have documented sanctuaries on the‘island bridge’ spanning from the Dalmatian coast to the Gargano peninsula in Daunia, in use fromat least the Neolithic period, also adds considerable weight to the argument.
8
The traffic was, however,no doubt two-way. The prevailing winds in the upper Adriatic and a clock-wise current, in concertwith the ‘island bridge’, gave rise to strong maritime trade route that took in the Daunians (further signposted by sea-faring craft incised on their stelae
9) and Picinians on the west coast, and the Japodians, Histrians, Liburnians and Dalmatians (all ‘Illyrian tribes’) on the north and east.10
It was likely mediated by the Liburnians, whose thalassocracy it is alleged by Appian was propped up by piracy(App.Ill
. 1.3). Was the cultural affinity between Daunia and Illyria that appears to exist in the Iron Age, nicelyillustrated by the spread of Daunian matt-painted pottery into the Balkans and of amber out, truly dueto a shared ancestry or simply the result of continued trading relations and contact? The Daunianstelae suggest the former: that the ethnogenesis of the northern-most Iapygians really did includeDNA from the indigenous populations of the eastern shores of the Adriatic.
The Daunian Stelae
The Daunian stelae are a precious resource for the study of the pre- and proto-historic Adriatic.They are anthropomorphic, each showing the dress and adornment of a human figure (Fig. 1). A significant proportion also carry secondary figurative imagery upon their robes, detailing episodes of daily life, ritual and what is arguably local legend. With otherwise very little figured art or written sources for this society, the stelae offer unparalleled information regarding Daunian practices, traditions and belief systems.
 
If J-L283 came from yamnaya this maybe explains why J-L283 is so confined to the balkans. Corded ware killed yamnaya later on. But i think it may have came through maykop or kura axes and through the southern pontic into thrace.

 
Wanderer said:
If J-L283 came from yamnaya this maybe explains why J-L283 is so confined to the balkans. Corded ware killed yamnaya later on. But i think it may have came through maykop or kura axes and through the southern pontic into thrace.

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Corded Ware descends from Yamnaya. That's like saying Italians killed Romans.

And these localisations are nothing new. R1b-L51 was never found in the steppe.
 
enter_tain said:
Corded Ware descends from Yamnaya. That's like saying Italians killed Romans.

And these localisations are nothing new. R1b-L51 was never found in the steppe.
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No. Its like saying the visigoths killed the ostrogoths (hypothetically) or the spanish killed the portuguese. Or the english killed the irish. Or the athenians killed the thebans or boatians
 
Galaxy Overlord said:
When is the Moldova sample study getting published?
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Same question here, the postponing of such studies is just annoying. Also other CA samples from Eastern Europe that will be of interest to us.
 
mount123 said:
Same question here, the postponing of such studies is just annoying. Also other CA samples from Eastern Europe that will be of interest to us.
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I don’t know the reason why these samples from the NWBSR are delayed, but my hunch is they are probably meticulously checking all of the samples for “reservoir effect” and trying to ensure the samples are properly dated. Moldova/Ukraine samples anywhere near the Black Sea or large rivers that date back to the eneolithic tend to belong to groups that consumed large quantities of fish and other types of meat and not a lot of plant based food. This can offset the dating of the samples. So some of these samples, as a result, may actually be older than previously thought. Nailing down the precise age of samples throughout that region will be critical to understanding which groups they belonged to. So I think they’re looking for very accurate dating of the samples along with ancient DNA to make the best assessment as to which cultural complexes these various samples came from.
 
Did the kalash people had Y dna studies done on them before?
They are said fo be macadonian decendants
 
Wanderer said:
Did the kalash people had Y dna studies done on them before?
They are said fo be macadonian decendants
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Wanderer, I am aware that due to your racial/ethnical background MENA populations are of interest to you but I think all here can agree with me on the fact that posts as such absolutely don't relate to the thread's topic at all.
 
mount123 said:
Wanderer, I am aware that due to your racial/ethnical background MENA populations are of interest to you but I think all here can agree with me on the fact that posts as such absolutely don't relate to the thread's topic at all.
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Uh, im not south asian.
And south asians dont have sub saharan ancestry. And levant people weren't ssa nor had iberian admixture or french ancestry.
And neither had native American ancestry.
 
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