J2b2-L283 (proto-illyrian)

Also regarding Etruscan J2b-L283, there is no doubt that Etruscan J2b-L283 is Dalmatian expansion since they are exactly same branch, therefore most likely arrived with same source, and it had exactly 1000 years to expand from Dalmatia to Italy which is btw very close one to another. Maybe this sample does not reflect real Etruscan origin, or Etruscans where already mixed with Indo-Europeans in that time of period. Or maybe Etruscans will also prove to be Indo-European expansion. Need more Etruscan samples to be sure of their origin, we cant judge by one sample. But what is clear is that Dalmatia J2b-L283 which most likely arrived with Bronze Age Indo-Europeans later also expanded in entire Italy which more samples can testify and not only this 700 BCE Etruscan one, which is btw very young sample and has no priority when looking at origin. Its clearly Dalmatian Bronze Age or later Balkan expansion into Italian Peninsula.
 
Does anyone have any deeper information on the dardani? Where did they come from, what year and did they have a successful reign in their region or were they wiped out/fully assimilated?
 
Does anyone have any deeper information on the dardani? Where did they come from, what year and did they have a successful reign in their region or were they wiped out/fully assimilated?

This thread is not about ancient Dardani tribe, this is third thread where i am reporting you, this time for spam. :)
 
This thread is not about ancient Dardani tribe, this is third thread where i am reporting you, this time for spam. :)

L283 could be dardani but only if it was a relevant tribe, their stronghold was mostly in the North East albania and kosova region. If dardani were trojans or related maybe it would explain j2b l283
 
L283 could be dardani but only if it was a relevant tribe, their stronghold was mostly in the North East albania and kosova region. If dardani were trojans or related maybe it would explain j2b l283


You do understand how stupid this sounds?
 
Today I noticed an interesting new BigY result for J-L283 research. Someone who seems to be with origin from Alsace (France/Germany border region), splits the J-YP29 clade, which is one of the rare J-L283 branches, parallel to the more popular J-Z600. He is only positive for one SNP, with the remaining showing negative. This would suggest that J-L283 expanded en masse westwards soon after its TMRCA lived, my best guess would be from around NW shores of the Black Sea.

Also, recently an Armenian with an interesting J2b haplotype ordered a BigY. Let's see where he fits but I think he is likely some rare/basal J-L283.

And we have the BigY result for this Armenian. A very interesting result: He is J-L283* and also negative for around 7 L283 SNPs, maybe a few more. So he splits the J-L283 node, probably around 6000 ybp or not far from its current TMRCA. This means the European branches J-Z600 and J-BY55372>YP29 will fall downstream, more specifically below J-L283>Z577,Z622.
 
J-L283 was more than likely still in the caucus or middle east somewhere. The earliest samples of J-L283 is in the caucus. The earliest sample of of one in europe is about 1200 bc croatia. Its very unlikely it was in europe that early.
But we know that J-L283 split with a lineage that settled in Afghanistan in its basal state. Some of those ended up in india, pakistan ect.

J2b2 in India and in Afghanistan is a remain of the Macedonian invasion. Macedonians were southern Illyrians whom got heavily influenced by the Hellenic civilization. Not mentioning that some Illyrian proper were part of the Macedonian army at the Asian conquest
 
J2b2 in India and in Afghanistan is a remain of the Macedonian invasion. Macedonians were southern Illyrians whom got heavily influenced by the Hellenic civilization. Not mentioning that some Illyrian proper were part of the Macedonian army at the Asian conquest

Do we also assume that Paeonians who lived between Macedonians and Dardanians are also "illyrians "?
 
J2b2 in India and in Afghanistan is a remain of the Macedonian invasion. Macedonians were southern Illyrians whom got heavily influenced by the Hellenic civilization. Not mentioning that some Illyrian proper were part of the Macedonian army at the Asian conquest
Not really. The vast majority of Indian and Asian J2b2 is Z2432+ and not L283+ like European J2b2. Z2432 likely expanded into the Indian subcontinent and surrounding areas during the Neolithic (maybe later) from around Iran. The J2b-L283 in Asia however, is certainly of more recent European origin.

Some Z2432+ aDNA:
1) I11480, from the Jiroft Culture (Eastern Iran), dated ~4,800ybp - J2b-Z2432>Y22893
2) I4157, from Bustan, BMAC Culture, dated ~3,400ybp - J2b-Z2432
3) I12458, from Loebanr, dated ~2,800ybp - J2b-Z2432>Y950
4) I12982, from Loebanr, dated ~2,800ybp - J2b-Z2432>Y950>Y2155
 
J2b2 in India and in Afghanistan is a remain of the Macedonian invasion. Macedonians were southern Illyrians whom got heavily influenced by the Hellenic civilization. Not mentioning that some Illyrian proper were part of the Macedonian army at the Asian conquest
In that area there is an agglomeration of J's, and J2b2 was discovered in Iran, dating from Mesolithic ~ 9000 BC. In Pakistan was J2b 1000 BC, before Macedonian invasion.
In India and Afghanistan, there is a lack of discoveries of human remains, and I think there were J2b2 long before Macedonian invasion.
 
Not really. The vast majority of Indian and Asian J2b2 is Z2432+ and not L283+ like European J2b2. Z2432 likely expanded into the Indian subcontinent and surrounding areas during the Neolithic (maybe later) from around Iran. The J2b-L283 in Asia however, is certainly of more recent European origin.

Some Z2432+ aDNA:
1) I11480, from the Jiroft Culture (Eastern Iran), dated ~4,800ybp - J2b-Z2432>Y22893
2) I4157, from Bustan, BMAC Culture, dated ~3,400ybp - J2b-Z2432
3) I12458, from Loebanr, dated ~2,800ybp - J2b-Z2432>Y950
4) I12982, from Loebanr, dated ~2,800ybp - J2b-Z2432>Y950>Y2155

A question, how much ev13 and r1b is found in the same regions of India where j2b is found?
 
A question, how much ev13 and r1b is found in the same regions of India where j2b is found?
J2b is primarily found around Northern India, in this region E and R1b are found in frequencies below 1%. There are some tribes that may have up to 5% R1b however. E-V13 is practically non-existent in South Asia.
 
J2b is primarily found around Northern India, in this region E and R1b are found in frequencies below 1%. There are some tribes that may have up to 5% R1b however. E-V13 is practically non-existent in South Asia.

That is odd. How much j2b percentage is found in that region of India?
 
That is odd. How much j2b percentage is found in that region of India?
In India, J2b is most commonly found in the Shia Muslims whom have it at a percentage of 4.4%.
 
In India, J2b is most commonly found in the Shia Muslims whom have it at a percentage of 4.4%.

That is a lot for a short conquest, although the greeks did rule that region again later on "Greek rule (180 BC-10 AD)". I have questions

1. Was J2b a MUCH bigger percentage in South albanians/macedonians/greeks who may have been part of Alexander the Greats army and also after him? This is the only way it would have so much more impact than ev13 or r1b in India

2. What would explain the drastic change in j2b l283 numbers in South albania/macedonia/Greece? Why did they diminish so much?

Who were these j2b l283 people? Did ev13 and R1b come over and expand later on? Could it be that ev13 came along with the romans and wiped out most j2b in these regions? I doubt balkan ev13 is roman but it is the only theory I can use which explains these j2b l283 numbers. Someone needs to explain j2b l283
 
That is a lot for a short conquest, although the greeks did rule that region again later on "Greek rule (180 BC-10 AD)". I have questions
1. Was J2b a MUCH bigger percentage in South albanians/macedonians/greeks who may have been part of Alexander the Greats army and also after him? This is the only way it would have so much more impact than ev13 or r1b in India

2. What would explain the drastic change in j2b l283 numbers in South albania/macedonia/Greece? Why did they diminish so much?

Who were these j2b l283 people? Did ev13 and R1b come over and expand later on? Could it be that ev13 came along with the romans and wiped out most j2b in these regions? I doubt balkan ev13 is roman but it is the only theory I can use which explains these j2b l283 numbers. Someone needs to explain j2b l283
The J2b in South Asia isn't from any kind of Greek or European conquest, they belong to J2b-Z2432 and not J2b-L283. L283 and Z2432 shared a common ancestor ~9,600 years ago. J2b-Z2432 has been present in the region since at least the Early Bronze Age and arrived from around Iran, this has been proven by aDNA.

Haplogroup frequencies can change significantly due to many reasons. The vast majority of Balkan haplogroups have TMRCAs of around 2,000-1,500ybp due to bottlenecks which were likely caused by the drastic changes which were happening in the region during this time frame. Albanian J2b-L283 clades were also affected by this for the most part, with most clades seemingly having expanded from the north of Albania.

Placing importance on frequency is illogical. aDNA, diversity and basal clade diversity are most important.
 
The J2b in South Asia isn't from any kind of Greek or European conquest, they belong to J2b-Z2432 and not J2b-L283. L283 and Z2432 shared a common ancestor ~9,600 years ago. J2b-Z2432 has been present in the region since at least the Early Bronze Age and arrived from around Iran, this has been proven by aDNA.
Haplogroup frequencies can change significantly due to many reasons. The vast majority of Balkan haplogroups have TMRCAs of around 2,000-1,500ybp due to bottlenecks which were likely caused by the drastic changes which were happening in the region during this time frame. Albanian J2b-L283 clades were also affected by this for the most part, with most clades seemingly having expanded from the north of Albania.
Placing importance on frequency is illogical. aDNA, diversity and basal clade diversity are most important.

How was this 9600 years ago worked out exactly? I mean the years they give to fossils and everything else I do not believe either, it all seems like a bit of a stretch. So 9600 years ago middle eastern men/families (could have been white from the beginning) moved over to the balkans and over time formed a big tribe? Or is it the other way round?

As for 2,000-1,500ybp, were the romans the cause of this? Thousands of years ago, actually even hundreds of years ago inbreeding was common due to trust issues so each race was actually less mixed than they are today, does this factor into bottlenecks?

I would like to know which tribe/group lived in Iran and ended up moving to northern albania (mostly north east/kosova according to modern numbers) and North India because so far the only 2 links I am aware of between albania and Iran/North India can be these:

1. Alexander the greats army
2. Osman conquest
3. Roma gypsies

You have ruled out the first 2 with tmrca 9600ybp and as far as I'm aware balkan roma gypsies do not often carry j2b l283 so if someone with better history knowledge than me on this subject can step in that'd be great
 
Are some of you homeless bkz you've been kicked off all the other sites?

Fair warning: keep up with the t-roll posts and you'll be out of here in short order, whether it's a bunch of you sickos, or just one sick, twisted jerk with multiple personality disorder. No one is interested in playing your juvenile games.
 
How was this 9600 years ago worked out exactly? I mean the years they give to fossils and everything else I do not believe either, it all seems like a bit of a stretch. So 9600 years ago middle eastern men/families (could have been white from the beginning) moved over to the balkans and over time formed a big tribe? Or is it the other way round?
As for 2,000-1,500ybp, were the romans the cause of this? Thousands of years ago, actually even hundreds of years ago inbreeding was common due to trust issues so each race was actually less mixed than they are today, does this factor into bottlenecks?
I would like to know which tribe/group lived in Iran and ended up moving to northern albania (mostly north east/kosova according to modern numbers) and North India because so far the only 2 links I am aware of between albania and Iran/North India can be these:
1. Alexander the greats army
2. Osman conquest
3. Roma gypsies
You have ruled out the first 2 with tmrca 9600ybp and as far as I'm aware balkan roma gypsies do not often carry j2b l283 so if someone with better history knowledge than me on this subject can step in that'd be great
J2b L283 is a Caucasian haplogroup that most likely moved north through the Caucasus Mountains to what is today southern Russia/Steppe and was integrated into the westward Indo European expansions from there into Europe, probably Central Europe and into the Balkans with the Illyrians and closely related tribes. There is a mounting body of evidence using current samples and ancient samples (Russia, Croatia) that supports this migration path.
https://phylogeographer.com/j-l283-...he-black-sea-migration-from-w-asia-to-europe/
 
J2b L283 is a Caucasian haplogroup that most likely moved north through the Caucasus Mountains to what is today southern Russia/Steppe and was integrated into the westward Indo European expansions from there into Europe, probably Central Europe and into the Balkans with the Illyrians and closely related tribes. There is a mounting body of evidence using current samples and ancient samples (Russia, Croatia) that supports this migration path.
https://phylogeographer.com/j-l283-...he-black-sea-migration-from-w-asia-to-europe/


I agree with this and i want to say,

Its simmilar to what i said few pages back: "However, as we know oldest IE cultures were pretty much homogenous R1a or R1b, also by looking at all other evidences as earlier splits when going upward the genetic tree, by my theory J2b-L283 was some kind of North Caucasus population originally. Probably offshot from Zagros to Caucasus, giving that oldest J2b-M12* was found in Zagros mountains."


By all so far given proofs M241 is probably Zagros Paleolithic, same as J2-M205. M241 clade is most likely Zagros expansion to Caucasus.


Oldest J2b-M12* ancient DNA are from Zagros and earlier splits are all on both sides on Zagros while almost none existent in Caucasus.
 

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