J2b2-L283 (proto-illyrian)

There is nothing support that it should have come from Lebanon.
Most probable routes for how YP29 reached Sardinia is:
1. Caucasus->Pontic steppe->Balkans->Mainland Italy->Sardinia
2. Caucasus->Anatolia->Mediterranean by boat->Sardinia
3. Caucasus->Anatolia->Balkans->Mainland Italy->Sardinia
4. Caucasus->Black sea by boat->Balkans->Mainland Italy->Sardinia
5. Caucasus->Black sea by boat->Passing Bosphorus by boat->Mediterranean by boat->Sardinia
6. Caucasus->Pontic steppe->Balkans->Mediterranean by boat->Sardinia

Neither ancient DNA nor modern distribution of subclades point towards the levant as having any relevance at all for this haplogroup.

The TMRCA of YP29 being 2400 years doesn't mean much in regards to when it came to sardinia, because we have dozens of L283 subclades in sardinia with TMRCA's of 4-5000 years. So unless Sardinia was some kind of magnet for all kinds of J-L283 subclades in prehistory, I don't see how the TMCR of YP29 is relevant for mapping out the initial migration routes of L283 as a whole.

Forget about this guy and his imagination.

We might soon have an Albanian sample in the J-YP29 subclade ;)
 
Pripet marshes, was the best candidate for early Slavs


Despite what T-rolls say, J2-L283/E-V13/R1b-L23 were all found in bronze age balkan samples. These dominate amongst Albanians. The naysayers will try tirelessly to disprove this, but it only makes their narrative more disjointed and nonsensical. For instance, that Carlos dude on his blog basically says E-V13 especially, with J2b and R1b in Albanians was spread from around Moravia with the Slavs. They will try tirelessly to prove Albanians are not native in their lands, because they're afraid of what the future might bring when its proven with more and more data.

About Pripyat, Around, not in. Archaeological digs have found no evidence of habitation within pripyat as far as I know, only around it. They likely descend from around the zone of the Neuri and controlled/passed through pripyat. Z280 however has been found from north-east europe to the black sea from bronze to iron age. So they likely weren't restricted to that specific zone. I think its more likely I2a1b was around the pripyat and that once Z280 from Milograd and M458 from Lusatians converged around the pripyat, the Proto-Slavs were formed. Many connect Neuri to them, which corresponds to the Proto-Slavic Urheimat. We need ancient I2a1b/M458 around where they found Z280 in the urheimat to confirm that obviously. Heres where Proto-Slavic falls, covering from pripyat south down the dneister near the prut. The oldest Proto-Slavic place-names are the red dots. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a1/Balto-Slavic_lng.png
 
Look at Y full
J-YP29 is given TMRCA 2400 years Before present. Thats 400 BC
Their total range is 3800-1350ybp
So their total range is 1780 bc - 670 Ad
Thats a range of 2450 years
Half of 2450 is 1225
Also 1780 - 1225 = 555 which is 555bc
1780 ×.20 = 356
555bc +/ - 356 years
J-yp157 is not given estimate nor j-yp71 nor mine or the Istanbul sample

The TMRCA of J-YP29 is not very precise because the Sardinian samples are low coverage. I would guess it's at least 3000 ybp. The same situation with J-Z600>YP157. However, we know that J-YP157 formed ~5400 ybp (TMRCA of J-Z600), and the fact that Sardinians under J-YP157 share only 4 SNPs, indicates that their TMRCA is around the middle bronze age. So this suggests that even the J-Z600 (Z585-) lineages were not far from Sardinia during the middle bronze age (perhaps the region around the Adriatic). In any case, absolutely no evidence they were in the Levant! While you and the Istanbul sample have "no TMRCA" because you currently have no closer relatives than the J-Z600 mutation.

I'm sorry, but among other things, you seem to have issues interpreting the YFull tree.
 
The TMRCA of J-YP29 is not very precise because the Sardinian samples are low coverage. I would guess it's at least 3000 ybp. The same situation with J-Z600>YP157. However, we know that J-YP157 formed ~5400 ybp (TMRCA of J-Z600), and the fact that Sardinians under J-YP157 share only 4 SNPs, indicates that their TMRCA is around the middle bronze age. So this suggests that even the J-Z600 (Z585-) lineages were not far from Sardinia during the middle bronze age (perhaps the region around the Adriatic). In any case, absolutely no evidence they were in the Levant! While you and the Istanbul sample have "no TMRCA" because you currently have no closer relatives than the J-Z600 mutation.

I'm sorry, but among other things, you seem to have issues interpreting the YFull tree.

Me and the istanbul sample dont need a TMRCA at 1000 years. Its very possible the the split was in western asia 5400 ybp between me and his sample but his still stayed in western asia. Like how you argue its european even though the split for Z585 was 5400 years ago... and none were in europe yet.

so z585 was still in western asia / caucaus 5400 ybp because there is no evidence of z585 in the balkans 5400ybp , not in mainland europe at 5400 ybp. So z585 came into europe later at around 1600 bc. Thats because we have ancient sample of that. Theres no evidence they came priot to that croatian sample! And that clade was already a very deep subclade of Z585 / 615!But none prior to that sample in the balkans!



Z558 migrated to europe at that time

For JYP29 3000ybp is still 1000BC. Which is still close to when the Carthagenians landed in sardinia XD

Also JYP29 is not Jz600. Its a mutation after it. He has mutations after Jyp29 also.
You dont find jyp29 in mainland europe...

Also it says J-L283 formed 9600 YBP


It wasnt in europe when J-L283 formed.
It was in west asia or the caucus.

Some how you want to argue -585 is european at 5400bc because Z585 /615 migrated at 1600 bc instead of 5400bc ???

Makes no sense. It only shows these lineages split. Which is the point, because you do not find -z585 with positive Z585 in the balkans or mainland europe. And if you find z585 they arent J-Z615 which is 98.9999999999 percent of european J-z615.
And the sardinian samples are nowhere on mainland. Nor is any z858 until 1600bc. Nevermind showing


All the mainland european samples are 615. Which they split 4700ybp (2700BC) according to Y full if you wanted to even compare the sardinian z585 samples.

So from 5400 ybp to 4700ybp they were still in the caucus and west asia.


So if its not even z585 why would you argue its mainland european -z585 came in with z615? Theres no evidence for that.

5400 ybp (3400 BC) some basal -z585 split from each other. They obviously were still in georgia. Theres no evidence of them being in europe at 3400 bc.

Z585 (-615) happens they remain in west asia. We know this because these lineages dont exist in the balkans or on main land europe.

615 lineages, exist everywhere in europe. They break apart 4700ybp. So 615 lineages migrated to europe afterwords at 1600bc, not -615.

The non 615 were still in west asia and caucus.

Mines migrated from west asia because my most distant ancestor lineage is looking to be from sidonia.

We also have armenian predicted J-L283. So what does that mean? What happens if they are shown deep subclades of Z615?

The ancient Croatian sample was already a deep clade of 615. So its no way related 615 samples and definitely not -z585. That supports that subclades of z615 migrated into europe at 1600bc. Not -615 lineages.
 
Doesn’t the Istanbul sample claim to be with origin from the Balkans?
 
Doesn’t the Istanbul sample claim to be with origin from the Balkans?
No. He doesnt know. Also he has a greek surname. But that doesnt mean his origins is from greece. It just means the ethnic identity was. Greeks hellenized people from west asia and other places. Also carians the first peoples in the greek islands are from west asia in caria, modern day turkey.
 
Me and the istanbul sample dont need a TMRCA at 1000 years. Its very possible the the split was in western asia 5400 ybp between me and his sample but his still stayed in western asia. Like how you argue its european even though the split for Z585 was 5400 years ago... and none were in europe yet.
so z585 was still in western asia / caucaus 5400 ybp because there is no evidence of z585 in the balkans 5400ybp , not in mainland europe at 5400 ybp. So z585 came into europe later at around 1600 bc. Thats because we have ancient sample of that. Theres no evidence they came priot to that croatian sample! And that clade was already a very deep subclade of Z585 / 615!But none prior to that sample in the balkans!
Z558 migrated to europe at that time
For JYP29 3000ybp is still 1000BC. Which is when the Carthagenians landed in sardinia XD
Also JYP29 is not Jz600. Its a mutation after it
Also it says J-L283 formed 9600 YBP
It wasnt in europe when J-L283 formed.
It was in west asia or the caucus.
Some how you want to argue -585 is european at 5400bc because Z585 migrated at 1600 bc instead of 5400bc ???
Makes no sense. It only shows these lineages split. Which is the point, because you do not find -z585 with positive Z585 in the balkans or mainland europe. And if you find z585 they arent J-Z615 which is 98.9999999999 percent of european J-z615.
And the sardinian samples are nowhere on mainland. Nor is any z858 until 1600bc. Nevermind showing
All the mainland european samples are 615. Which they split 4700ybp (2700BC) according to Y full if you wanted to even compare the sardinian z585 samples.
So from 5400 ybp to 4700ybp they were still in the caucus and west asia.
So if its not even z585 why would you argue its mainland european -z585 came in with z615? Theres no evidence for that.
5400 ybp (3400 BC) some basal -z585 split from each other. They obviously were still in georgia. Theres no evidence of them being in europe at 3400 bc.
Z585 (-615) happens they remain in west asia. We know this because these lineages dont exist in the balkans or on main land europe.
615 lineages, exist everywhere in europe. They break apart 4700ybp. So 615 lineages migrated to europe at this time, not -615.
The non 615 were still in west asia and caucus.
Mines migrated from west asia because my most distant ancestor lineage is looking to be from sidonia.
We also have armenian predicted J-L283. So what does that mean? What happens if they are shown deep subclades of Z615?
The ancient Croatian sample was already a deep clade of 615. So its no way related -615 samples and definitely not -z585.

I was trying to help you interpret the YFull tree. Instead, it appears you're going back to writing long walls containing imaginary things.

Do you even see a single North African anywhere within L283, which would support your theory that the Carthagenians carried it into Sardnia? Besides the Istanbul sample, who literally has a Greek sounding surname, do you see a single West Asian anywhere between L283 and Z615? BTW, in case you didn't know, Istanbul is a border region between Balkans and Anatolia. We don't know where L283>Z600 expanded from 5400 ybp, but there is absolutely no evidence it did from the Levant. Ancient origin of J-L283 is most definitely in the Caucasus region, however. For your own lineage, as you rightly said, your closest match is someone with origin from Portugal and not west Asia.
 
I was trying to help you interpret the YFull tree. Instead, it appears you're going back to writing long walls containing imaginary things.

Do you even see a single North African anywhere within L283, which would support your theory that the Carthagenians carried it into Sardnia? Besides the Istanbul sample, who literally has a Greek sounding surname, do you see a single West Asian anywhere between L283 and Z615? BTW, in case you didn't know, Istanbul is a border region between Balkans and Anatolia. We don't know where L283>Z600 expanded from 5400 ybp, but there is absolutely no evidence it did from the Levant. Ancient origin of J-L283 is most definitely in the Caucasus region, however. For your own lineage, as you rightly said, your closest match is someone with origin from Portugal and not west Asia.


Wanderer is looks like some kid who enjoys in trillion of various fantasies or things that come up to his mind prior to sleeping time in bed. I would suggest not taking him too seriously or lose nerves over him. At least he is trying to understand, got to give him some credit for that.
 
Wanderer is looks like some kid who enjoys in trillion of various fantasies or things that come up to his mind prior to sleeping time in bed. I would suggest not taking him too seriously or lose nerves over him. At least he is trying to understand, got to give him some credit for that.
The fact is. The croation sample is a deep clade of 615.
615 splits from -615 at 4700 ybp
2700bc
Theres no evidence of JL283 in europe until 1600 BC for ancient samples.
So for about thousand years we have 615 lineages growing and mutating in west asia and georgia which is why they come into europe at 1600 bc as a deep clade of 615. Not -615. And not too mention its only 1 sample from a group sample. It doesnt even mean it was a large settlement of J -L283. Meaning there was no population. This is just a single case that could have been an explorer or mercenary traveling around. As the others tested weren't J-L283
 
Yes, of course, the Croatian J-L283 kid from 3600 ybp was just some isolated Wanderer who came from the Levant or West Asia right at the time he was found. You have it all figured out :LOL:

Keep it up with the imagination. Have a nice day!
 
I was trying to help you interpret the YFull tree. Instead, it appears you're going back to writing long walls containing imaginary things.

Do you even see a single North African anywhere within L283, which would support your theory that the Carthagenians carried it into Sardnia? Besides the Istanbul sample, who literally has a Greek sounding surname, do you see a single West Asian anywhere between L283 and Z615? BTW, in case you didn't know, Istanbul is a border region between Balkans and Anatolia. We don't know where L283>Z600 expanded from 5400 ybp, but there is absolutely no evidence it did from the Levant. Ancient origin of J-L283 is most definitely in the Caucasus region, however. For your own lineage, as you rightly said, your closest match is someone with origin from Portugal and not west Asia.

Original Carthagenians come from west asia but used mercernaries also. They arent native north africans.original carthagenians are from west asia.
Also carthagenians were wiped out after they lost to rome. They were genocided.

Theres not a single mainland -615 lineage. So i dont understand the arguements. The only 1 who actually has done geneology finds that his most possible candidate has origins from sidonia which is the oldest european settlement and was founded by the phonecians.
Its not because i want to be carthagenian ect. Its because thats what geneology has led me to. A place founded by carthage. His lineage extends to a person who was born around the early 1600s and is from sidonia (medina sidonia).. only about 100-120 years after spains reconquista. Also the surname is from that area actually comes from andalusian meaning rock. It has different origins than someone from like catalonia with the same name.
 
The fact is. The croation sample is a deep clade of 615.
615 splits from -615 at 4700 ybp
2700bc
Theres no evidence of JL283 in europe until 1600 BC for ancient samples.
So for about thousand years we have 615 lineages growing and mutating in west asia and georgia which is why they come into europe at 1600 bc as a deep clade of 615. Not -615. And not too mention its only 1 sample from a group sample. It doesnt even mean it was a large settlement of J -L283. Meaning there was no population. This is just a single case that could have been an explorer or mercenary traveling around. As the others tested weren't J-L283

How could he be a mercenary or explorer, when he was 7 years old at the time of his death?

Also his archaeological site was nothing out of the usual for his area.
1. Material culture corressponds with other sites.
2. He had fractures on his arms from defence wounds, and healed fractures on his skull from earlier in his life, indicating that these were people who had martial training from a very young age. Probably when they were as young as 4-5 years old. Practically everyone in the area, including this site, have defence wounds and healed skull fractures, probably done by blunt weapons like clubs.
This does not indicate that these men were the typical seafaring merchant to me, but rather warriors who died where they lived, namely the bronze age western balkans
3. He was buried in a kurgan.
 
How could he be a mercenary or explorer, when he was 7 years old at the time of his death?
Also his archaeological site was nothing out of the usual for his area.
1. Material culture corressponds with other sites.
2. He had fractures on his arms from defence wounds, and healed fractures on his skull from earlier in his life, indicating that these were people who had martial training from a very young age. Probably when they were as young as 4-5 years old. Practically everyone in the area, including this site, have defence wounds and healed skull fractures, probably done by blunt weapons like clubs.
This does not indicate that these men were the typical seafaring merchant to me, but rather warriors who died where they lived, namely the bronze age western balkans

7 years old with bone fractures. So it means he was beat and abused and got killed at 7. It doesnt mean he was a warrior at 7.

this actually tells me he was probably kidnapped and sold into slavery probably
Considering that the others tested around him were not J-l283
Its possible the used slaves in training or to even train as warriors. But no free person would have their kid die at 7 and suffer fractures constantly at ages 5 and 6.
"Healed skull fractures"
At 7. Lets say this happened at 5 years old. And was common. Yikes.
 
@wanderer
Everyone in the area have the same fractures.
Why would they burry a slave in a kurgan warrior grave? :D

Anyways, im done here. I see that you are either just a troII out to provoke, our just simply uncapable of understanding extremely simple argumentation.
Have a nice day
 
@wanderer
Everyone in the area have the same fractures.
Why would they burry a slave in a kurgan warrior grave? :D

Anyways, im done here. I see that you are either just a troII out to provoke, our just simply uncapable of understanding extremely simple argumentation.
Have a nice day

Im not a T roll. You didnt tell me he was buried in kurgan warrior burial. You told me he had skull fractures that healed in and died at 7. I would think the kid was beaten and abused. Child abuse was likely common in those days. And slavery also.

Also others around him are not J -l283. So they dont have the same paternal origins.
 
Also where is the source saying he was buried in a kurgan warrior grave?
 
Original Carthagenians come from west asia but used mercernaries also. They arent native north africans.original carthagenians are from west asia.
Also carthagenians were wiped out after they lost to rome. They were genocided.

Theres not a single mainland -615 lineage. So i dont understand the arguements. The only 1 who actually has done geneology finds that his most possible candidate has origins from sidonia which is the oldest european settlement and was founded by the phonecians.
Its not because i want to be carthagenian ect. Its because thats what geneology has led me to. A place where carthage was founded. His lineage extends to a person who was born around the early 1600s and is from sidonia.. only 100 years after spains reconquista.



No, you are wrong. Carthage was Sidon-Byblos-Tyre expansion and colony. They were Semitic speakers from territories of modern day Lebanon. Also there are two Sidonian ancient DNA tested, one is J2-M205 and another J1-P58. J2-L283 spread with Indo-Europeans and is strongly associated with both Illyrians and Albanians (Indo-European language group).


You dont need rocket scientists to realise that L-283 spread with IE only when looking on Yfull - https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-L283/
Look, its formed 9600 years ago, so prior to Phoenicians, and its TMRCA is 5400 years mostly among IE speakers, i dont see how Phoenicians could fit here.



Please dont reply with rows of senseless text, but rather try to understand. Also look at IE language tree: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-European_languages#/media/File:IndoEuropeanTree.svg
 
No, you are wrong. Carthage was Sidon-Byblos-Tyre expansion and colony. They were Semitic speakers from territories of modern day Lebanon. Also there are two Sidonian ancient DNA tested, one is J2-M205 and another J1-P58. J2-L283 spread with Indo-Europeans and is strongly associated with both Illyrians and Albanians (Indo-European language group).


You dont need rocket scientists to realise that L-283 spread with IE only when looking on Yfull - https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-L283/
Look, its formed 9600 years ago, so prior to Phoenicians, and its TMRCA is 5400 years mostly among IE speakers, i dont see how Phoenicians could fit here.



Please dont reply with rows of senseless text, but rather try to understand. Also look at IE language tree: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-European_languages#/media/File:IndoEuropeanTree.svg
Only the 615 lineages not the -615 lineages.
West asian samples of J-L283

https://j2-m172.info/2015/10/j2b2a1-l283-origins-by-diversity-and-subgroups-focus-jewish-lineages/

Morroco sample also
e3dbe3e4be8a34228056493c578e758e.jpg



b5cff853387a72cc7da22c1184186280.jpg

Also sidonia was founded by carghagenians.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medina-Sidonia

This city was most likely ancient Asido, an Iberian settlement which may have been founded by the Phoenicians, hence the later name Sidonia reflecting its foundation by Sidon. Its earliest phase is known through its coinage and its 2nd and 1st centuries BC issues bear the Latin inscription Asido but also Punic inscriptions such as 'sdn or b'b'l, with Herakles and Dolphins being notable obverse and reverse designs. The Barrington Atlas of the Greek and Roman World equates this site with modern Medina Sidonia-lying within the ancient Roman province of Turdetania some 30 km (19 mi) inland from the southern Spanish coast, this site lay upon a hill c. 35 km (22 mi) to the east of Gades (modern Cadiz), and 15 km (9 mi) to the west of the Besilus river.[2]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sidon


Sidon has been inhabited since very early in prehistory. The archaeological site of Sidon II shows a lithic assemblage dating to the Acheulean, whilst finds at Sidon III include a Heavy Neolithic assemblage suggested to date just prior to the invention of pottery.[2] It was one of the most important Phoeniciancities, and it may have been the oldest. From there and other ports a great Mediterranean commercial empire was founded. Homerpraised the skill of its craftsmen in producing glass, purple dyes, and its women's skill at the art of embroidery. It was also from here that a colonizing party went to found the city of Tyre. Tyre also grew into a great city, and in subsequent years there was competition between the two, each claiming to be the metropolis ('Mother City') of Phoenicia. Glass manufacturing, Sidon's most important enterprise in the Phoenician era, was conducted on a vast scale, and the production of purple dye was almost as important. The small shell of the Murex trunculus was broken in order to extract the pigment that was so rare it became the mark of royalty.
 
Im not a T roll. You didnt tell me he was buried in kurgan warrior burial. You told me he had skull fractures that healed in and died at 7. I would think the kid was beaten and abused. Child abuse was likely common in those days. And slavery also.
Also others around him are not J -l283. So they dont have the same paternal origins.

And what Y-DNA had these 'other' samples around him from the same time period? That's right, he was the only one with a Y-DNA haplogroup. Stop spamming this thread with made up stuff!



Only the 615 lineages not the -615 lineages.
West asian samples of J-L283
https://j2-m172.info/2015/10/j2b2a1-l283-origins-by-diversity-and-subgroups-focus-jewish-lineages/
Morroco sample also
Also sidonia was founded by carghagenians.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medina-Sidonia
This city was most likely ancient Asido, an Iberian settlement which may have been founded by the Phoenicians, hence the later name Sidonia reflecting its foundation by Sidon. Its earliest phase is known through its coinage and its 2nd and 1st centuries BC issues bear the Latin inscription Asido but also Punic inscriptions such as 'sdn or b'b'l, with Herakles and Dolphins being notable obverse and reverse designs. The Barrington Atlas of the Greek and Roman World equates this site with modern Medina Sidonia-lying within the ancient Roman province of Turdetania some 30 km (19 mi) inland from the southern Spanish coast, this site lay upon a hill c. 35 km (22 mi) to the east of Gades (modern Cadiz), and 15 km (9 mi) to the west of the Besilus river.[2]

Congrats, you finally found a single north African J-L283 out of ~700 samples :LOL:

Check again, all those Lebanese are under J-Y146400>FGC64029, with a TMRCA (founder) of only ~2000 ybp: https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-FGC64029/

IMG-20190525-154458.jpg
 
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