Updated FamilyTree "My Origins" - Results Make No Sense?

[JFWR]

Hello everybody,

Recently Family Tree DNA has updated their autosomal DNA testing results. As such, I now have a brand new set of results! This upsets me, as I would've liked to have had access to the previous results as well, and now I don't, but no matter. What's more unnerving is the fact that I have had myself, my father, and my mother all tested...and the results seem impossible?

Myself:


European 91% composed of: West and Central Europe 35% | Scandinavia - 18% | British Isles - 16% | Southeast Europe - 14% | Finland - 8%
Jewish Diaspora 7% (Ashkenazi).
Trace: East Middle East <2% | Southeast Asia <1%


Mother:


European 76%: West and Central European 43% | Finland - 15% | British isles 11% | East Europe 4% | SE Europe 3%
Jewish Diaspora 21% (Ashkenazi).
Trace: East Central Africa <1% | Scandinavia <2% | Siberia <2%


Father:


European 97%: British Isles - 92% | Southeast Europe - 5%
Trace: Asia Minor <2% | West Middle East <2%



According to the matches, my mother and father remain definitively, genetically, my parents (which is unsurprising as this is not controversial) but what possibly can account for this discrepancy?

My dad is 92% British, my mom 11%, and...I'm 16%?
My mom doesn't have Scandinavian apparently after all, except for <2% trace, and I...have 18%?
My mom and dad together would have SE at 8%, and I'm at 14%

So, precisely how does any of this work? Is this all guess work/heuristics?

 

[mwauthy]

With these tests northwestern genes can pop up as British Isles, Scandinavian, or Western and Central Europe. So if you add up all three of those categories for yourself and your parents it makes sense. Your dad has 92% northwestern, your mom 56% northwestern, and you being a mix are in between at 69% northwestern.

 

[JFWR]

With these tests northwestern genes can pop up as British Isles, Scandinavian, or Western and Central Europe. So if you add up all three of those categories for yourself and your parents it makes sense. Your dad has 92% northwestern, your mom 56% northwestern, and you being a mix are in between at 69% northwestern.

So, what's the basis for describing DNA in these tests as any one of these things? Like what is the justificiation for claiming it "British" over "Western-Central European"?

 

[mwauthy]

I'm not a scientist so I'm not sure what their methods are for assigning one of these 3 areas. All I can do is analyze from personal experience. My friend and I have each taken 7 DNA tests. I'm am around 85% northwestern Europe. My ancestry is Belgian and Northern France. Half of the tests I take assign me high amounts of British Isles because of the proximity between northern France/ Belgium and because both are primarily celtic/Germanic. Both my parents speak a language d'oil so I have slightly higher Roman percentage (whatever that means cause it's not reflected in modern populations).
My friend is 90% northwestern European and his heritage is British Isles. On these tests he interchangeably gets British Isles, Scandinavian, or Western Europe. I believe Scandinavian is more prominent in British Isles than Western Europe. So your dad being 92% British Isles means you can get anyone of those 3 categories. Remember Angles, Jutes, English Vikings were all from Denmark. Norman Vikings settlement in northern France was less prominent than British Isles so I get anywhere from 0% to 13% Scandinavian on these tests

 

[mwauthy]

I would say the same thing applies to southern or Mediterranean results. My non northwestern or Roman genes on these tests some times pop up as all Iberian, or all Greece/Italy, or sometimes a bit of Iberian, Sardinian, Italian, Greek, Asia Minor, and Jewish.

 

[Pratt]

So, what's the basis for describing DNA in these tests as any one of these things? Like what is the justificiation for claiming it "British" over "Western-Central European"?

Hard to say because every company uses different reference samples.

 

[New Englander]

I dont see how you have 14% SE Europe.....

 

[JFWR]

I'm not a scientist so I'm not sure what their methods are for assigning one of these 3 areas. All I can do is analyze from personal experience. My friend and I have each taken 7 DNA tests. I'm am around 85% northwestern Europe. My ancestry is Belgian and Northern France. Half of the tests I take assign me high amounts of British Isles because of the proximity between northern France/ Belgium and because both are primarily celtic/Germanic. Both my parents speak a language d'oil so I have slightly higher Roman percentage (whatever that means cause it's not reflected in modern populations).
My friend is 90% northwestern European and his heritage is British Isles. On these tests he interchangeably gets British Isles, Scandinavian, or Western Europe. I believe Scandinavian is more prominent in British Isles than Western Europe. So your dad being 92% British Isles means you can get anyone of those 3 categories. Remember Angles, Jutes, English Vikings were all from Denmark. Norman Vikings settlement in northern France was less prominent than British Isles so I get anywhere from 0% to 13% Scandinavian on these tests

That's very interesting. Thank you for your response.

So basically, they make....intelligent guess work based on populations having some connection to past migrations? And as indicated in your other post, make certain assumptions re: the source of population genetics?

Hm! Interesting.

But what I find strange is: Why would they change the name for the DNA from father to son and mother to son? Like, if my dad's DNA was labelled "British", why would mine come out "Central European" if it is the same gene data?

 

[New Englander]

Use GedMatch Eurogenes K13

 

[JFWR]

I dont see how you have 14% SE Europe.....

Yeah, neither do I, considering I have no known SE European ancestry. lol. Though it's just as likely as the Jewish DNA, which I think is a mischaracterization.

 

[JFWR]

Hard to say because every company uses different reference samples.

Thanks also for your help. Appreciate it!

 

[JFWR]

Use GedMatch Eurogenes K13

Gedmatch K13 -


Mom


Population
North_Atlantic 36.07
Baltic 27.08
West_Med 12.34
West_Asian 2.94
East_Med 13.78
Red_Sea 2.77
South_Asian -
East_Asian 0.39
Siberian 3.57
Amerindian -
Oceanian -
Northeast_African 1.05
Sub-Saharan -






Dad


North_Atlantic 51.44
Baltic 19.92
West_Med 13.60
West_Asian 5.21
East_Med 5.03
Red_Sea 1.34
South_Asian 1.58
East_Asian -
Siberian 0.44
Amerindian 0.56
Oceanian 0.11
Northeast_African -
Sub-Saharan 0.78






Me


North_Atlantic 42.60
Baltic 23.49
West_Med 12.98
West_Asian 3.92
East_Med 10.94
Red_Sea 2.31
South_Asian 1.10
East_Asian 0.91
Siberian 1.33
Amerindian -
Oceanian -
Northeast_African 0.08
Sub-Saharan 0.32



----

From the above, it seems I am right in the middle between my mom and dad (which it should be, given that they are my parents).

Basically, uh, might it be because I'm too much of a white mutt for me to get a meaningful match with ethnic groups anymore? My dad is relatively purely British (which makes sense given his ancestry seems exclusively linked to the British isles for the last 500 some years), but my mom is fairly mixed over European ethnicities. Woe betides the eclectic white man of America?

What I want to know is: Why the hell does the same DNA come out as one thing for one person, another thing for the other? Presumably, the same chromosomal markers my dad has are giving him British, and me central European, for instance. Why the heck would you have two different distinctions for the same thing?

 

[mwauthy]

These DNA admixture tests like I said previously are okay at assigning major regions such as northwest, Eastern or Mediterranean. So if you have no idea about your paper trail and have been in a melting pot like the United States for a few centuries these DNA tests could be helpful. However, you could probably figure out the same info by looking in the mirror and by having a basic understanding of history. For example, I could figure out I'm mostly Celtic/Germanic mixed with Roman by looking in the mirror and by knowing where my parents were from. I have fair skin, brown hair, hazel eyes, and an aquiline nose. My parents are Belgian and French Canadian.
It doesn't take a rocket scientist or a genetics company to tell me I'm a Celtic/Germanic/Roman mixture. Or if you are looking farther back in time a hunter gather, Neolithic farmer, or Bronze Age "invader" lol. Or farther back in time a mammal. All humans are related and have multiple mixtures over multiple millennia so I don't like it when these companies say I can tell you where your ancestors are from. I like the recent Eurogenes K36 algorithm that shows which people you are most closely genetically similar to today and how that varies over different regions.

 

[mwauthy]

Gedmatch K13 -


Mom


Population
North_Atlantic 36.07
Baltic 27.08
West_Med 12.34
West_Asian 2.94
East_Med 13.78
Red_Sea 2.77
South_Asian -
East_Asian 0.39
Siberian 3.57
Amerindian -
Oceanian -
Northeast_African 1.05
Sub-Saharan -






Dad


North_Atlantic 51.44
Baltic 19.92
West_Med 13.60
West_Asian 5.21
East_Med 5.03
Red_Sea 1.34
South_Asian 1.58
East_Asian -
Siberian 0.44
Amerindian 0.56
Oceanian 0.11
Northeast_African -
Sub-Saharan 0.78






Me


North_Atlantic 42.60
Baltic 23.49
West_Med 12.98
West_Asian 3.92
East_Med 10.94
Red_Sea 2.31
South_Asian 1.10
East_Asian 0.91
Siberian 1.33
Amerindian -
Oceanian -
Northeast_African 0.08
Sub-Saharan 0.32



----

From the above, it seems I am right in the middle between my mom and dad (which it should be, given that they are my parents).

Basically, uh, might it be because I'm too much of a white mutt for me to get a meaningful match with ethnic groups anymore? My dad is relatively purely British (which makes sense given his ancestry seems exclusively linked to the British isles for the last 500 some years), but my mom is fairly mixed over European ethnicities. Woe betides the eclectic white man of America?

What I want to know is: Why the hell does the same DNA come out as one thing for one person, another thing for the other? Presumably, the same chromosomal markers my dad has are giving him British, and me central European, for instance. Why the heck would you have two different distinctions for the same thing?

I think the answer is twofold. First, they did not purposefully analyze your results and your parents results together. Each is independently run through their algorithms. Second I don't think there is a "British" gene so they are not making a mistake giving you less British and more Scandinavian. Each set of results is an interpretation of a mixture. I can interpret that maroon is close to burgundy and looks more different that navy blue, but what does that even scientifically mean?

 

[JFWR]

These DNA admixture tests like I said previously are okay at assigning major regions such as northwest, Eastern or Mediterranean. So if you have no idea about your paper trail and have been in a melting pot like the United States for a few centuries these DNA tests could be helpful. However, you could probably figure out the same info by looking in the mirror and by having a basic understanding of history. For example, I could figure out I'm mostly Celtic/Germanic mixed with Roman by looking in the mirror and by knowing where my parents were from. I have fair skin, brown hair, hazel eyes, and an aquiline nose. My parents are Belgian and French Canadian.
It doesn't take a rocket scientist or a genetics company to tell me I'm a Celtic/Germanic/Roman mixture. Or if you are looking farther back in time a hunter gather, Neolithic farmer, or Bronze Age "invader" lol. Or farther back in time a mammal. All humans are related and have multiple mixtures over multiple millennia so I don't like it when these companies say I can tell you where your ancestors are from. I like the recent Eurogenes K36 algorithm that shows which people you are most closely genetically similar to today and how that varies over different regions.

You're very right: A mirror and paper trail seem as useful as a genetic test.

I've amber eyes, dark brown hair, and fair skin with a Greek nose. I found a "long lost cousin" in Margaret Vaughan, from county Down, wife of the man who built Kylemore Abbey (originally from London) in co. Galway, when I recently visited Ireland. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4a/Margaret_Henry_nee_Vaughan@Kylemore_Abbey_01.jpg. She looks substantially like my great grandmother, who looks substantially like myself.

So yes, I can be fairly sure of my Celto-Germanic heritage, too. Still, it's just a puzzling thing in respect to autosomal testing.

 

[JFWR]

I think the answer is twofold. First, they did not purposefully analyze your results and your parents results together. Each is independently run through their algorithms. Second I don't think there is a "British" gene so they are not making a mistake giving you less British and more Scandinavian. Each set of results is an interpretation of a mixture. I can interpret that maroon is close to burgundy and looks more different that navy blue, but what does that even scientifically mean?

I grasp you. I find it just somewhat misleading to describe something as X which the same data will give you as Y for someone else. The "false accuracy" is troubling. Especially when the results now differ substantially from before!

 

[mwauthy]

An example of some of the hyperbolic discrepancies based on their interpretations. I received 40% British Isles on Ftdna 1.0 and 0% on ftdna 2.0. My friend received 66% English on Ancestry DNA and 0% on Myheritage. Did we lose half our genes overnight lol? Or are they choosing to call the blended mixture Maroon instead of Burgundy. It's not that we received Chinese instead but rather more Western Europe or Scandinavian.

 

[mwauthy]

23andMe is the most honest but also the least useful. They say at 90% confidence we are pretty sure you are European. Thanks lol! I could figure that out with a mirror and save $99. At 50% confidence we are not positive about 50% of your genes so we will assign "broadly" categories. For the other 50% we will take an educated guess and possibly be wrong. For example assigning me 23.4% British Isles even though all the last names in my paper trail for previous 350 years are French in origin. That's why I prefer following the puzzle of my Y chromosome. Even though it only accounts for 2% of my DNA, at least it is an exact science whose puzzle will hopefully be solved one day.