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Thread: Mediterranean Race–Problems of Classification

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    Es muy simple adaptacin al medio.

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    The Mediterranean race does not have any problem of classification since such race does not exist, according to the modern genetic science in which it consists? Are we more Neolithic than the North? a little more? What if it is clear is that Europe was born in the Mediterranean and its foundation is the Greco-Latin culture and the rest is an evolution of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ROS View Post
    If you live in the south of Europe, the adaptation to the environment consists of: if you have clear eyes the amount of sun we receive makes you always scandal, if you have an excessively clear skin you can have problems with skin cancer, so the adaptation to the Half happens to have dark eyes and brown skin, now I have neighbors with very clear skin and blue eyes that all their ancestors are from the area, south on the banks of the meditarreaneo. Therefore I believe that if a group of Iberian Meditrienne was grouped and moved to Scandinavia within 1000 years all would be blond with blue eyes and skin would clrara.
    a bit simplistic: 1000 years is a bit short too for pigmentation, even if some plague could select "good" genes more quickly. By the way all Scandinavians and Finns are not blond, the most northern are darker, and the Eskimos/Inuits are darker; some disadvantages born by genes perdure because they don't prevent reproduction. In hot climates, very light skin could disappear, more or less slowly, by sexual selection (a burned/roasted skin man could be less attractive...who knows), surely not blond hair and blues eyes, rare, so attractive. Pops of albinos are surviving in Africa, and they can reproduce themselves, they decrease seemingly more by the criminal actions of their normal brethren than by natural selection even if (I don't precisely know) their mean life time is surely very shorter than the norm. All that is theoric I think, and if we read some books, we have to read more books and to observe and reason too. As already said, even some proved letal genes at homozygotic level are preserved in pops and scientists are trying to understand why; surely because they present advantages at a heterozygotic level. And genes are linked on a chromosome even if the link can be broken at some frequence by crossing over) and there are interactions and also balance possible. All the way, selection needs mutations in some way.
    a

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    Quote Originally Posted by ROS View Post
    The Mediterranean race does not have any problem of classification since such race does not exist, according to the modern genetic science in which it consists? Are we more Neolithic than the North? a little more? What if it is clear is that Europe was born in the Mediterranean and its foundation is the Greco-Latin culture and the rest is an evolution of it.
    type' for me is not 'race' but an idealized (syntheticized) statistical representation of some phenotypical traits dominant somewhere which can be used in crossings of pops to roughly evaluate weight of every pop involved in it. It is not useless when you don't have auDNA at hand, and even when you have this auDNA, when it's correctly made (among the ancient anthropologists, a lot has been proved very inaccurate and biased, it's true).
    That said even some animals "races" have been proved to be only superficial differences when auDNA has been studied (I red it concerning some birds) but it's not too common! Animals don't cover the whole globe as Mankind does and are more "compartimented".
    '

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    Is that in the discussion, if I am not tricked by the translator, "Mediterranea race classification problems".


    I am not an expert on these issues, just an amateur, but I would like someone to explain to me from a scientific point of view, what is a meditarranea race ?, I understand that the subject requires enough seriousness for this issue not to focus from a point Political, suedocientifico or even mitlogico.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ROS View Post
    Is that in the discussion, if I am not tricked by the translator, "Mediterranea race classification problems".


    I am not an expert on these issues, just an amateur, but I would like someone to explain to me from a scientific point of view, what is a meditarranea race ?, I understand that the subject requires enough seriousness for this issue not to focus from a point Political, suedocientifico or even mit�logico.
    Essentially it has to do with 4 autosomal components, Neolithic Farmer, Natufian/Levant Neolithic like ancestry, Iran Chalcolithic/Armenian CHL/Mesopotamian and North African.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Azzurro View Post
    Essentially it has to do with 4 autosomal components, Neolithic Farmer, Natufian/Levant Neolithic like ancestry, Iran Chalcolithic/Armenian CHL/Mesopotamian and North African.
    The variety of people meditarrenaos simplify in that and also call it race, What scientific has said this? And that it is based?, I for the moment I do not believe it.


    It is necessary to take into account that mediterraneo is the south of France, practically all italy, greece, turkey, all the north of africa, peninsula iberica, etc. To this variety of towns can be included within a label, are very different, or that part of the Mediterranean we are talking and we call it Mediterranean race ?.


    If they are not geographic criteria when labeling as race, because obviously it is impossible to consider a race to all the houses bordering the Mediterranean, on what criteria is it based that they do not have the problem of being biased?


    I believe that there is an evolution of science in genetic issues very important, but there is a scientific weakness when it comes to labeling, especially in the autosomic subject.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ROS View Post
    The variety of people meditarrenaos simplify in that and also call it race, What scientific has said this? And that it is based?, I for the moment I do not believe it.


    It is necessary to take into account that mediterraneo is the south of France, practically all italy, greece, turkey, all the north of africa, peninsula iberica, etc. To this variety of towns can be included within a label, are very different, or that part of the Mediterranean we are talking and we call it Mediterranean race ?.


    If they are not geographic criteria when labeling as race, because obviously it is impossible to consider a race to all the houses bordering the Mediterranean, on what criteria is it based that they do not have the problem of being biased?


    I believe that there is an evolution of science in genetic issues very important, but there is a scientific weakness when it comes to labeling, especially in the autosomic subject.
    My personal opinion, I don't believe that their is different races, after all we are all human beings, Mediterranean race is just a label, the most accurate definition would be it is a Meta Ethnicity, it is a fusion of ethnicity and culture, the 4 autosomal components that I named can all be found in the Mediterranean region and it is part of the mix of the Mediterranean Meta Ethnicity generally all Mediterranean countries will have a mix of these 4 components.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Azzurro View Post
    My personal opinion, I don't believe that their is different races, after all we are all human beings, Mediterranean race is just a label, the most accurate definition would be it is a Meta Ethnicity, it is a fusion of ethnicity and culture, the 4 autosomal components that I named can all be found in the Mediterranean region and it is part of the mix of the Mediterranean Meta Ethnicity generally all Mediterranean countries will have a mix of these 4 components.
    Dogs, wolves and foxes are all canine beings, but that doesnt deny the different canine races and breeds.

    Races exist. Saying otherwise, you deny human biodiversity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Leandros View Post
    Dogs, wolves and foxes are all canine beings, but that doesnt deny the different canine races and breeds.

    Races exist. Saying otherwise, you deny human biodiversity.
    I don't think Azzurro and others are arguing human diversity doesn't exists. I think they're arguing human biodiversity is so complicated it can't be explained by a racial categories like white, black, and Asian. I dis agree with them because actually human genetic diversity can be explained really well by a handful of racial categories. And most of them carry racial-defining features like a certain skin color or facial feature. Anyone with eye balls can see Japanese and Eskimos look the same and that Russians and Portuguese look the same and so on.

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    In the United States many Government's Forms asks what race/ethnic group you belong to. Multiple choice questionnaires. I was surprised the first time I filled up a Form. I actually asked the Officer what multiple choice to mark, and after explaining my background told me to check Caucasian.
    I think is weird.
    For the USA Government races are very, very Real.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    I don't think Azzurro and others are arguing human diversity doesn't exists. I think they're arguing human biodiversity is so complicated it can't be explained by a racial categories like white, black, and Asian. I dis agree with them because actually human genetic diversity can be explained really well by a handful of racial categories. And most of them carry racial-defining features like a certain skin color or facial feature. Anyone with eye balls can see Japanese and Eskimos look the same and that Russians and Portuguese look the same and so on.
    Problem with science is it was always used according to the dogma of the time.
    Look at Dr. Watson, how they witch hunted him, for pointing out some OBSERVABLE facts.

    Colorblind race deniers are ultimately an enemy of observable science.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    For the USA Government races are very, very Real.
    Yes, most Americans do believe race exists. And those who don't believe in race believe race is a social category and a cultural category and even a social class. So, race is even important to them and they believe it should still be a census question.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    Yes, most Americans do believe race exists. And those who don't believe in race believe race is a social category and a cultural category and even a social class. So, race is even important to them and they believe it should still be a census question.
    Do Middle Easterners have a separate category in the census? or are they classified under "White"?



    So Germans, Irish, Lebanese, and Egyptians are White, but apparently, Spaniard isn't.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Leandros View Post
    Dogs, wolves and foxes are all canine beings, but that doesnt deny the different canine races and breeds.

    Races exist. Saying otherwise, you deny human biodiversity.
    I am not denying Human Biodiversity, it does exist, but its too simplistic to say Black, White and Asian (thanks Fire Haired). It would be easier to have meta ethnicity identities than these Old World classifications which were done with racist intentions, and sadly this seems to be focused to much.

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    Mediterranean Race–Problems of Classification

    United States ETHNICITY AND RACE IDENTIFICATION:
    https://www.opm.gov/forms/pdf_fill/sf181.pdf
    Hispanic or Latino: A person of Cuban, Mexican, Puerto Rican, South or Central American, or other Spanish culture or origin, regardless of race.
    American Indian or Alaska Native: A person having origins in any of the original peoples of North and South America (including Central America), and who maintains tribal affiliation or community attachment.
    Asian: A person having origins in any of the original peoples of the Far East, Southeast Asia, or the Indian subcontinent including, for example, Cambodia, China, India, Japan, Korea, Malaysia, Pakistan, the Philippine Islands, Thailand, and Vietnam.
    Black or African American: A person having origins in any of the black racial groups of Africa.
    Native Hawaiian or Other Pacific Islander: A person having origins in any of the original peoples of Hawaii, Guam, Samoa, or other Pacific Islands.
    White: A person having origins in any of the original peoples of Europe, the Middle East, or North Africa.

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    Quote Originally Posted by IronSide View Post
    Do Middle Easterners have a separate category in the census? or are they classified under "White"?



    So Germans, Irish, Lebanese, and Egyptians are White, but apparently, Spaniard isn't.
    Nevertheless, the U.S. government doesn't rule out the use of DNA testing, in some matters of immigration. But due to the expense, they just ask for photo IDs, and more arbitrary identification. Most likely, privacy concerns as well.

    https://travel.state.gov/content/vis...rocedures.html

    Genetic testing is a useful tool for verifying a stated biological relationship when no other form of credible evidence is available in conjunction with an immigrant visa (IV) application. Commonly tested relationships that utilize DNA testing include paternity, maternity, full-siblingship, or half-siblingship. More distant relationships cannot be proven reliably using DNA testing. DNA technology is the only non-documentary method accepted for proof of a biological relationship. However, due to the expense, complexity, and logistical delays inherent in parentage testing, genetic testing should be used only if no other credible proof (documentation, photos, etc.) of the relationship exists.
    Edit: The US government uses the Combined DNA Index System (CODIS). The Wiki said they may have phenotypic information. But I checked the source, and I don't think its sufficient.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combin...-Phenotypic-15

    The loci used in CODIS were chosen because they are in regions of noncoding DNA, sections that do not code for proteins. These sections should not be able to tell investigators any additional information about the person such as their hair or eye color, or their race.[14] However, new advancements in the understanding of genetic markers and ancestry have indicated that the CODIS loci may actually contain some phenotypic information.[15][16]

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    The census makes it clear that "The racial categories included in the census questionnaire generally reflect a social definition of race recognized in this country and not an attempt to define race biologically, anthropologically, or genetically. "

    Socially Middle Easterners aren't seen as white, so yeah I think it should not count as white.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Azzurro View Post
    It would be easier to have meta ethnicity identities than these Old World classifications which were done with racist intentions, and sadly this seems to be focused to much.
    I'll respect any opinon you have on classifying human genetic diversity. Race in the history of America however can be explained by simple categories. Between 1500 and 1800 the Americas had three races: white, Indian (Native American), and Black. No one in America created the concept of those racial categories for racist purposes, they just created words to refer to the reality in front of them. Racist views abounded in American history but racial terms weren't created for racist inteions.

    But I guess maybe racial categories in Europe, like Aryan, were created with racist intentions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    The census makes it clear that "The racial categories included in the census questionnaire generally reflect a social definition of race recognized in this country and not an attempt to define race biologically, anthropologically, or genetically. "

    Socially Middle Easterners aren't seen as white, so yeah I think it should not count as white.
    The 2020 census may feature a MENA category if the U.S. Congress passes it.

    I was confused as to why middle easterners would be considered white. But they had to argue that they were white in court in order to become citizens.

    Early Arab immigrants desperately pursued whiteness and performed it in immigration proceedings. The law officially mandated whiteness as a prerequisite for US citizenship until 1952. Key judicial decisions in 1915 and later 1944, solidified the legal designation that Arabs were white by law.
    http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2015/07/arabs-white-150716110921150.html
    Many other groups did the same thing.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defini..._United_States

    Here's a lecture video about the subject by the Library of Congress.

    Last edited by Jovialis; 24-08-17 at 14:52.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    The census makes it clear that "The racial categories included in the census questionnaire generally reflect a social definition of race recognized in this country and not an attempt to define race biologically, anthropologically, or genetically. "
    Socially Middle Easterners aren't seen as white, so yeah I think it should not count as white.
    Someone on youtube claimed Middle Eastern Christians choose to identify as white more than Muslim Middle Easterners do, I couldn't verify his claim.

    But he does raise a very interesting issue, Armenians and Georgians identify more as European than their neighboring Azeri people, who are Muslim.

    If the Middle East and North Africa were Christian, people wouldn't consider adding a MENA category in the US Census Bureau, and if the countries in the region were prosperous enough maybe even the European Union would change its borders.

    Is Islam the greatest divider of East and West?

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by IronSide View Post
    Someone on youtube claimed Middle Eastern Christians choose to identify as white more than Muslim Middle Easterners do, I couldn't verify his claim.

    But he does raise a very interesting issue, Armenians and Georgians identify more as European than their neighboring Azeri people, who are Muslim.

    If the Middle East and North Africa were Christian, people wouldn't consider adding a MENA category in the US Census Bureau, and if the countries in the region were prosperous enough maybe even the European Union would change its borders.

    Is Islam the greatest divider of East and West?
    Those census bureau classifications are all screwed up. However, if they have a category for Hispanics and even, I think, but haven't checked, "white" Hispanics, I doubt they would classify North Africans as European.

    It's color as well as religion. Armenians are white and Christian. I can see where Armenian-Americans here might classify themselves as European, particularly as they suffered so much at the hands of Muslim Middle Easterners. Why would they want to identify with them?

    The same goes for Georgians. They were part of the USSR for a long time, and again are white and Christian.

    The people from Azerbaijan are an interesting case. I think it's they who "segregate" themselves in terms of identity. I remember reading something about the Boston Bomber where it said he identified as non-white, and various commentators saying that they couldn't understand that. In a country with a large black population and visibly Amer-Indian and black Hispanics, the finer distinctions in terms of whom should be put in the "white" camp get lost.

    There was an interesting post by Razib Khan about this too, where he said Indian students were presumed to be possibly Al Qaeda types and getting harassed somewhere, but not some of the Middle Eastern students.

    Americans aren't good at either phenotype classification or geography apparently.

    The Boston Bomber:


    Plus, I don't think Armenians or Georgians or Azerbaijanis would be classified anthropologically as being part of the "Mediterranean" race anyway in classical anthropology, would they, so I don't quite understand the title of your thread.

    Nor would many North Africans: Tuareg Berbers, for example


    I just thought of an example. Danny Thomas was a beloved American comedian of Lebanese descent who was a devout Catholic. Nobody ever considered him anything other than white. I doubt anyone thought of him as being Middle Eastern, but of course he was.



    The same goes for Ralph Nader, consumer advocate.


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    Country: Portugal



    What do you think about the Atlanto-Mediterranid phenotype? Is this a misleading term?

  24. #49
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    Country: USA - New York



    Quote Originally Posted by PT Tagus View Post
    What do you think about the Atlanto-Mediterranid phenotype? Is this a misleading term?
    I think there's a problem with all those classifications, as even the 19th and early 20th century anthropologists who created them couldn't agree.

    Then there's the places like theapricity where terms and definitions are made up by them. To the best of my recollection, none of the professionals found much "Atlanto-Med" in Iberia, instead finding that most of the population is "gracile med", for example.

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    The Spaniards have put us in the Hispanic, it seems to me that it implies cultural and historical problems beyond the race and if that serves the Americans as a method of control and identification of foreigners who come to their country, it is their business.


    For me the white race is flesh-colored or also called skin color.

    Nobody thinks about white stockings when going to buy some stockings.

    There are very white stockings but it is an exception perhaps on occasion to feel different, but it is an exception, the queen of the stockings are flesh or skin color. This classification in some places call it "brown" because not sir, it is the pattern, the base model.

    You're going to buy some stockings and they're flesh-colored, sometimes girls can wear red, black or white stockings, but the lifelong stockings are flesh-colored.



    My racial classification is based on the media, it is a method devised by me and that serves both me and the US. UU He has his own method that I respect, but mine.

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