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Thread: does R1b-V88 originate from the Iron Gate ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    I didn't say HG were better of than farmers, I said it only for the Iron Gate.
    They didn't live in tents and had plenty of food.
    And I'm not sure their lifestyle didn't lead to nowhere in terms of cultural evolution.
    It looks like there was.
    But indeed finaly they got absorbed.
    It looks like the place got overcrowded.
    By hungry, smaller, weak, sick, malnourished farmers? Something doesn't make sense.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    So, any idea why h-gs and their culture vanished, and farmers survived, multiplied and farming continued since, till today in this particular area? Shouldn't it been in reverse if hunters where healthier, bigger and stronger and had more food to feed their offspring?
    I had been wondering about this apparent contradiction for a while and it seems my faulty understanding of the agricultural revolution led me to all kinds of wrong conclusions. Evidence is accumulating that Flannerty's broad spectrum revolution hypothesis accurately predicted that an increase of dietary breadth due to the culling of large game populations preceded the neolithic. Levantine hunter-gatherers began to exploit various wild cereal sources as well as unlikely animal sources like rodents, frogs, shellfish that were extremely difficult to hunt. As the population increased, the adoption of agriculture became a matter of life or death.

    European Mesolithic societies did not yet face such dire circumstances and likely did not anticipate the future developmental potentional of primitive agriculture. In summary, European hunters were well-fed but stagnant while agriculturists were malnourished and dynamic. Hence West Asia became a population-pump and Europe did not. That's also why it makes little sense to look for an European origin of those Neolithic haplogroups.
    Last edited by MarkoZ; 11-06-17 at 12:29.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkoZ View Post
    I had been wondering about this apparent contradiction for a while and it seems my faulty understanding of the agricultural revolution led me to all kinds of wrong conclusions. Evidence is accumulating that Flannerty's broad spectrum revolution hypothesis accurately predicted that an increase of dietary breadth due to the culling of large game populations preceded the neolithic. Levantine hunter-gatherers began to exploit various wild cereal sources as well as unlikely animal sources like rodents, frogs, shellfish that were extremely difficult to hunt. As the population increased, the adoption of agriculture became a matter of life or death.

    European Mesolithic societies did not yet face such dire circumstances and likely did not anticipate the future developmental potentional of primitive agriculture. In summary, European hunters were well-fed but stagnant while agriculturists were malnourished and dynamic. Hence West Asia became a population-pump and Europe did not. That's also why it makes little sense to look for an European origin of those Neolithic haplogroups.
    We can give words interesting meaning but till we can explain it in numbers we won't get to the bottom of it. I see this issue as a function of offspring survival. Let's say that h-gs and farmers were promiscuous on same level. Meaning that they had sex about same amount of times and same amount of kids were being born. Also, it is safe to assume that no group used any population control methods, like birth control pills. ;) So far, things being equal.
    The only difference had to be in survival of kids. Was it safety of the village, better hygiene or food production, higher GDP? One thing is certain. Farming societies had more kids surviving into adulthood, therefore faster population growth.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    We can give words interesting meaning but till we can explain it in numbers we won't get to the bottom of it. I see this issue as a function of offspring survival. Let's say that h-gs and farmers were promiscuous on same level. Meaning that they had sex about same amount of times and same amount of kids were being born. Also, it is safe to assume that no group used any population control methods, like birth control pills. ;) So far, things being equal.
    The only difference had to be in survival of kids. Was it safety of the village, better hygiene or food production, higher GDP? One thing is certain. Farming societies had more kids surviving into adulthood, therefore faster population growth.
    Hunter-Gatherer population density cannot be anything but small. The argument about the bad physical shape of early peasants is about the unhealthiness of their diets. They had the benefit of an entirely novel mode of subsistence which supports far more people per km^2 so of course they'd outnumber Mesolithic people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkoZ View Post
    Hunter-Gatherer population density cannot be anything but small. The argument about the bad physical shape of early peasants is about the unhealthiness of their diets. They had the benefit of an entirely novel mode of subsistence which supports far more people per km^2 so of course they'd outnumber Mesolithic people.
    indeed, it is not because the farmers could survive in bigger numbers that they had a better life, and certainly not a more interesting one
    their life was as monotonous as their diet

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    indeed, it is not because the farmers could survive in bigger numbers that they had a better life, and certainly not a more interesting one
    their life was as monotonous as their diet
    Again you assume that people don't like monotonous lifestyle. I don't, you don't, and many don't, but I know more people who love their scheduled, same, organized, monotonous jobs, and stable lives, and being happy in their predictable and repetitive world, than not. I know more people being afraid of unknown and adventures, than people who crave these. The unknown and unpredictable scares most people. Especially farmers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Again you assume that people don't like monotonous lifestyle. I don't, you don't, and many don't, but I know more people who love their scheduled, same, organized, monotonous jobs, and stable lives, and being happy in their predictable and repetitive world, than not. I know more people being afraid of unknown and adventures, than people who crave these. The unknown and unpredictable scares most people. Especially farmers.
    what's your point?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkoZ View Post
    I had been wondering about this apparent contradiction for a while and it seems my faulty understanding of the agricultural revolution led me to all kinds of wrong conclusions. Evidence is accumulating that Flannerty's broad spectrum revolution hypothesis accurately predicted that an increase of dietary breadth due to the culling of large game populations preceded the neolithic. Levantine hunter-gatherers began to exploit various wild cereal sources as well as unlikely animal sources like rodents, frogs, shellfish that were extremely difficult to hunt. As the population increased, the adoption of agriculture became a matter of life or death.

    European Mesolithic societies did not yet face such dire circumstances and likely did not anticipate the future developmental potentional of primitive agriculture. In summary, European hunters were well-fed but stagnant while agriculturists were malnourished and dynamic. Hence West Asia became a population-pump and Europe did not. That's also why it makes little sense to look for an European origin of those Neolithic haplogroups.
    I agree with much of this, but I also think it very much depends on which farmers you're discussing. It very much depends on the area and the time period. Of course, if the rains fail, if there's a flood, if there's an infestation of locusts, if they've just worn out the soil because they don't yet understand how to replenish it, the farmers are going to suffer from malnutrition. When things are going well, they're not, particularly the groups who also incorporated some fishing and hunting, as some did. The farmers whom the steppe people encountered had just gone through a period of climate change and failing crops. Of course they were malnourished. Does anyone think the people of the advanced Chalcolithic civilizations of the Balkans, creating these large towns, elaborate houses, magnificent pottery and copper ornaments were falling over from malnutrition for most of their history?

    Then, just look at this logically. If hunter-gathering was so optimal and they were so well fed, and farming was not and they were not, why did farming cultures produce so many more offspring who survived to reproduce than did the hunter-gatherers? It's obviously because there were fewer resources. Now, whether the children died of starvation, or they were deliberately killed to keep numbers low, I don't know, but as LeBrok mentioned, they did not have birth control.

    I also don't get this they weren't adventurous stuff. They spread all over Europe, North Africa, the Near East, India, and down into deepest Africa. That seems pretty adventurous to me. Of course, needs must.

    Also, by the time the Neolithic farmers arrived, the Mesolithic people of Europe were sedentary, don't forget. We're not talking about Mammoth hunters. Again, there's all this conflation of time periods. Those Iron Gates people were tied to that fishing area. The hg people of the far northeast were tied to the Baltic shore lines. The hunter gatherers of western North Africa were tied to a particular area because that's where all the hazel nut trees were located.

    There is no question the population of Mesolithic people of Europe was small. You just need too much territory to support such a lifestyle for it to be any different.

    I've posted this before, but it bears repeating:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQtzwoOYrkE


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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    what's your point?
    You base your hypothesis on assumptions and personal feelings. This will lead you astray.

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    by 15 ka when climate became optimal and forests were growing, HG became sedentary all over the world
    population had regrown after LGM and every rich hunting and fishing ground became ocupied
    the only posibility to expand the population further was diversification
    it happened in Europe were they burned forest land to attract deer and to increase the growth of hazel for their nuts and where they produced fish traps on an almost industrial scale
    it happened south of the Yangzi river where they started to collect rice
    it even happened in Sundaland where for the first time HG started to explore the dense forests to suplement their seafood diet
    it happened in the Zagros Mts where sheep, goat and pigs were domesticated
    why was it so succesfull in the Levant? nature was very favourable, for sure, maybe they also had the correct social structure

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    You base your hypothesis on assumptions and personal feelings. This will lead you astray.
    what personal feelings?
    also earlier in this thread you told me my comment was based on personal feelings and I explained what my comment was based on
    you think you know me and know how I think, based on sentiment and prejudice
    I'm sorry if I judge some situations different than you do, I think it is my right

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    by 15 ka when climate became optimal and forests were growing, HG became sedentary all over the world
    population had regrown after LGM and every rich hunting and fishing ground became ocupied
    the only posibility to expand the population further was diversification
    it happened in Europe were they burned forest land to attract deer and to increase the growth of hazel for their nuts and where they produced fish traps on an almost industrial scale
    it happened south of the Yangzi river where they started to collect rice
    it even happened in Sundaland where for the first time HG started to explore the dense forests to suplement their seafood diet
    it happened in the Zagros Mts where sheep, goat and pigs were domesticated
    why was it so succesfull in the Levant? nature was very favourable, for sure, maybe they also had the correct social structure
    That's a different issue LeBrok. I do think, as John Hawks points out, that the people in the Levant were blessed with a wealth of different resources. That may be part of the answer. I don't know the whole answer.

    I just remembered something I read in a paper about the early Neolithic versus the Mesolithic. I'll be darned if I can find the paper, however. It mentioned that weaning children might have been much easier in a farming setting, as well as in more southerly locations, which are coincidentally where early farming flourished more than in very cold settings. It's easy to make a mash of pounded grains or grains and fruit with some milk to give to children until their teeth are sufficiently grown to eat a lot of meat. If your milk dries up, as it can often do even when you're eating reasonably well, the children might suffer. On the other hand, I guess you could pound up some fish I guess, right? I've wondered too if it might have something to do with the fact that women from more "southern" locales seem to start menstruating and thus being capable of childbirth at a younger age than girls in more "northern" locales. The same is true for males from what I remember reading. It's not all that uncommon for girls with more "southern" ancestry to start menstruating as young as ten years old. I think it used to be much older in more northern areas, before all this ingestion of hormone laden milk and meat, that is.

    We just don't know enough.

    After the very earliest Neolithic, the farmers did spread out from the loess soils, and some did in fact locate near watercourses, and eat a lot of aquatic creatures.

    This paper I did find in my files. I saved it, I think, because the settlements are near the Koros sites from which we got those Neolithic samples along with the one Mesolithic one. (genetically, of course)

    See: https://www.academia.edu/6771528/Res..._in_prehistory

    It's extremely wordy. Just scroll down to the important stuff.

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    my name is bicicleur, Angela, it is not Lebrok

    the paper deals with the Starcevo-Köros culture, not LBK, is it?
    I recall these people were not looking for löss, they were living near the floodplains and worked the fertile soils in the floodplains.
    They also engaged in hunting and in fact were exploiting all possible resources nature offered them, contrary to the LBK folks.
    I got this and many more things from 'Europe between the Oceans' by Barry Cunliffe which I found very informative for an amateur like me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    my name is bicicleur, Angela, it is not Lebrok

    the paper deals with the Starcevo-Köros culture, not LBK, is it?
    I recall these people were not looking for löss, they were living near the floodplains and worked the fertile soils in the floodplains.
    They also engaged in hunting and in fact were exploiting all possible resources nature offered them, contrary to the LBK folks.
    I got this and many more things from 'Europe between the Oceans' by Barry Cunliffe which I found very informative for an amateur like me.
    Oh gosh, Bicicleur, I'm so sorry. Of course I know who you are...You're one of my absolute favorite posters. I've told you often enough how much I value your input.

    Yes, you're absolutely right about the area. I was particularly interested because it was near Koros, as I said.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    Khvalynsk 7.2-6 ka R1b1-L278, possibly pré-V88
    The Y-SNP calls for the Khvalynsk sample I0122 are here. He was R1b-V88 or pre-R1b-V88. Note that the positive call for the V88-equivalent SNP S5025 is reliable, while the three positive calls for P297-equivalent SNPs are not.

    The Y-SNP calls for the Mesolithic sample SC1 from the Iron Gates region are here. He was R1b-V88 or pre-R1b-V88. With a date of 7125–6603 BC, this is now the oldest such sample.

    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    So, is it possible that one man, R1b-V88 or pré-R1b-V88 got from the Iron Gates into Anatolia and there became the founding father of R1b-V88?
    There's no need to posit a special migration to Anatolia for the "founding father of R1b-V88". It's sufficient to simply say that the man in whom V88 originated very likely lived in Europe, and that his descendants would later spread to places outside of Europe, including Africa and the Middle East.

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    Thanks Geneticker. One of the Neolithic Ukraine HGs also had R1b V88.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Genetiker View Post
    The Y-SNP calls for the Khvalynsk sample I0122 are here. He was R1b-V88 or pre-R1b-V88. Note that the positive call for the V88-equivalent SNP S5025 is reliable, while the three positive calls for P297-equivalent SNPs are not.

    The Y-SNP calls for the Mesolithic sample SC1 from the Iron Gates region are here. He was R1b-V88 or pre-R1b-V88. With a date of 7125–6603 BC, this is now the oldest such sample.



    There's no need to posit a special migration to Anatolia for the "founding father of R1b-V88". It's sufficient to simply say that the man in whom V88 originated very likely lived in Europe, and that his descendants would later spread to places outside of Europe, including Africa and the Middle East.
    Till we find even older pre R1b V88 somewhere else. We should also make a point that we don't have true R1b-88 confirmed yet. One thing is certain R1b haplogoup was very movable and transferable through paleolithic and mesolithic. Khvalynsk is EHG, Iron Gate is WHG.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Genetiker View Post
    The Y-SNP calls for the Khvalynsk sample I0122 are here. He was R1b-V88 or pre-R1b-V88. Note that the positive call for the V88-equivalent SNP S5025 is reliable, while the three positive calls for P297-equivalent SNPs are not.

    The Y-SNP calls for the Mesolithic sample SC1 from the Iron Gates region are here. He was R1b-V88 or pre-R1b-V88. With a date of 7125–6603 BC, this is now the oldest such sample.



    There's no need to posit a special migration to Anatolia for the "founding father of R1b-V88". It's sufficient to simply say that the man in whom V88 originated very likely lived in Europe, and that his descendants would later spread to places outside of Europe, including Africa and the Middle East.
    Thank you Genetiker.
    Both were pre-V88 but not the founding father of V88, because both samples are negativ for some V88 SNP's and both are younger than the TMRCA of R1b-V88 which is estimated 11.7 ka.
    But they were related to the founding father of V88 who could have lived in the same neighbourhood.

    Or maybe not. We also have the pre-I1 in Stora Farvor and the (pre-)I1 in Hungarian LBK, quite a distance apart.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Genetiker View Post
    It's sufficient to simply say that the man in whom V88 originated very likely lived in Europe, and that his descendants would later spread to places outside of Europe, including Africa and the Middle East.
    A white god.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    Thanks Geneticker. One of the Neolithic Ukraine HGs also had R1b V88.
    The authors corrected it and the sample is no more R-V88 in the supplemental materials.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Genetiker View Post
    The Y-SNP calls for the Khvalynsk sample I0122 are here. He was R1b-V88 or pre-R1b-V88. Note that the positive call for the V88-equivalent SNP S5025 is reliable, while the three positive calls for P297-equivalent SNPs are not.

    The Y-SNP calls for the Mesolithic sample SC1 from the Iron Gates region are here. He was R1b-V88 or pre-R1b-V88. With a date of 7125–6603 BC, this is now the oldest such sample.



    There's no need to posit a special migration to Anatolia for the "founding father of R1b-V88". It's sufficient to simply say that the man in whom V88 originated very likely lived in Europe, and that his descendants would later spread to places outside of Europe, including Africa and the Middle East.
    Many thanks... Is there another sample that is R among those from Romania?

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    We should also make a point that we don't have true R1b-88 confirmed yet.
    The early Neolithic Spanish sample I0410 is definitely V88. It's on the Y7777 branch of V88 that's ancestral to the Middle Eastern and African Y7771 branch, among others.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brennos View Post
    The authors corrected it and the sample is no more R-V88 in the supplemental materials.
    You both must be thinking of I1734, which is Mesolithic, not Neolithic. Yes, it was originally labeled R1b1a2, and now it's just labeled R1b1a(xR1b1a1a). So it's possibly V88 or pre-V88, and possibly not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Genetiker View Post
    The early Neolithic Spanish sample I0410 is definitely V88. It's on the Y7777 branch of V88 that's ancestral to the Middle Eastern and African Y7771 branch, among others.
    In this case it can give us a possibility that V88 migrated to Africa with Neolithic Iberian Farmer.
    May I ask, where is the biggest diversity of V88 today?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brennos View Post
    Many thanks... Is there another sample that is R among those from Romania?
    SC2 and OC1 are reported to be R1 and R1b. The data for those samples is unaligned. I could align it, but it takes a very long time, so I'm probably not going to. It's not worth the effort. They're probably V88 or pre-V88, like SC1.

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