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Thread: does R1b-V88 originate from the Iron Gate ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    May I ask, where is the biggest diversity of V88 today?
    Sardinia currently appears to have the most diversity, although that may be due to the extensive sampling that's been done there.

    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    In this case it can give us a possibility that V88 migrated to Africa with Neolithic Iberian Farmer.
    Yes, and the spread of the Megalithic culture from Iberia into Northwest Africa is the obvious pontential archeological correlate of the spread of R1b-V88, along with the spread of I2a1a1-M26.

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    The megalithism in North Africa is from the Bronze Age, maybe related to the BB expansion there also. By then the Sahara would be insurmountable by then for the R1b-V88 cow herders (the cows are European otherwise?). Instead, by the time that the 5000 BC sample found in the Pyrenees (by sure a herder by the altitude and region where he was buried) we have in the Sahara petroglyphs about herders abd cows, it was the Green Sahara, and both Pyrenees and North Africa received a Cardial demic diffusion...
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    there is also the Almagra pottery culture which predates the Cardial Ware neolithic in Andalusia but about which very little is known
    however, as the Els Trocs are rich in EEF with some WHG, I put my 2 cents on Cardial Ware or some related folks
    the farmers/herders in Northern Africa were more related to the Levant neolithics

    TMRCA of Y7777 is way before Cardial ware or any neolithic expansion from SW Asia

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    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    The megalithism in North Africa is from the Bronze Age, maybe related to the BB expansion there also. By then the Sahara would be insurmountable by then for the R1b-V88 cow herders (the cows are European otherwise?). Instead, by the time that the 5000 BC sample found in the Pyrenees (by sure a herder by the altitude and region where he was buried) we have in the Sahara petroglyphs about herders abd cows, it was the Green Sahara, and both Pyrenees and North Africa received a Cardial demic diffusion...
    There is also a possibility that V88 was also a hunter gatherer in North Africa and could have been "picked up" by expending Levant Farmers around 7-5k BC. In this case V88 had easy enough time to get to SS Africa as farmer/herder, just before Sahara dried up.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    The megalithism in North Africa is from the Bronze Age, maybe related to the BB expansion there also. By then the Sahara would be insurmountable by then for the R1b-V88 cow herders (the cows are European otherwise?). Instead, by the time that the 5000 BC sample found in the Pyrenees (by sure a herder by the altitude and region where he was buried) we have in the Sahara petroglyphs about herders abd cows, it was the Green Sahara, and both Pyrenees and North Africa received a Cardial demic diffusion...
    Interesting, thanks.

    I thought that the megaliths in NW Africa might be from the Bronze Age, but I wasn't sure. Do you know of any online sources that discuss their dates? I assume that Bronze Age here means around 2000 BC.

    This makes me wonder how much R1b-M269 there is in NW Africa.

    Your scenario fits the estimates well. Y7771 is estimated to have formed around 5000 BC, which is right in the middle of the most recent Green Sahara period. And its TMRCA estimate of 3400 BC is around the time that the Sahara dried up.

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    @bicicleur, the African V88 subclades have a TMRCA of around 5000 BC, date that coincides with the apparision of herding in the Sahara. You know, as more cars in a city more car crashes, as more people in a place more mutations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Genetiker View Post
    Interesting, thanks.

    I thought that the megaliths in NW Africa might be from the Bronze Age, but I wasn't sure. Do you know of any online sources that discuss their dates? I assume that Bronze Age here means around 2000 BC.

    This makes me wonder how much R1b-M269 there is in NW Africa.

    Your scenario fits the estimates well. Y7771 is estimated to have formed around 5000 BC, which is right in the middle of the most recent Green Sahara period. And its TMRCA estimate of 3400 BC is around the time that the Sahara dried up.
    the Green Sahara started about 9-10 ka and it lasted till 5.9 ka, but it was interrupted for a few centuries by the 8.2 ka climate event
    before the 8.2 ka climate event the Green Sahara was full of HG, after the 8.2 ka climate it was full of herders
    after 5.9 ka the Nile valley was a refuge which became overcrowded and eventualy ended up in warring tribes and the 5 ka foundation of Egypt when the 1st farao came out as victor of these wars

    that is why I believe R1b-V88 entered Africa between 8 and 5.5 ka

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    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    @bicicleur, the African V88 subclades have a TMRCA of around 5000 BC, date that coincides with the apparision of herding in the Sahara. You know, as more cars in a city more car crashes, as more people in a place more mutations.
    I was talking about Y7777 with TMRCA 9.6 ka, which is the branch of the El Trocs sample, we don't know which further subclade
    Y7771 has TMRCA 5.4 ka, but apart from the African branch, also some Saudi and Kuwaiti are on this branch, which suggests an even later migration into Africa
    maybe Y7771 split up from the Nile valley

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkoZ View Post
    A white god.


    I love it when you do this

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    Quote Originally Posted by Genetiker View Post
    The Y-SNP calls for the Khvalynsk sample I0122 are here. He was R1b-V88 or pre-R1b-V88. Note that the positive call for the V88-equivalent SNP S5025 is reliable, while the three positive calls for P297-equivalent SNPs are not.

    The Y-SNP calls for the Mesolithic sample SC1 from the Iron Gates region are here. He was R1b-V88 or pre-R1b-V88. With a date of 7125–6603 BC, this is now the oldest such sample.



    There's no need to posit a special migration to Anatolia for the "founding father of R1b-V88". It's sufficient to simply say that the man in whom V88 originated very likely lived in Europe, and that his descendants would later spread to places outside of Europe, including Africa and the Middle East.
    I never looked at the SNP details, but I saw someone showing V-88 in Ukraine, then I saw this thread.

    And I would agree that V-88 looks to have come from the same place as much of the other R1b lines that dispersed during bronze age. I've always wondered why people needed some special place for the origin of V-88, apart from the glut of mesolithic R1b in Europe and the steppe.

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    Both R1a and R1b have basal subclades in the Near east, and only from a single point on their respective trees do we see European subclades that would later spread with IE migrations.

    If complexity of basal subclades means anything to you, then this means that R1b-P297 and R1a-M17 were the only ones that migrated to Europe during the Mesolithic, posiibly from Anatolia to the Balkans and then to the steppes.

    The oldest R1a is from Ukraine 8825-8561 calBCE, and the oldest R1b is from Epigravettian Italy 12230-11830 calBCE (12140±70 BP).

    R1b-V88 was left behind in the Middle east, same as R1b-L388*, R1b-PH155, R1b-M335, R1a-YP1272, R1a-YP4141.

    We can even say that the entire R2 was left in the Near east, migrating later to India with the Neolithic, this would of course mean that the R* we found in Mal*ta, Siberia for some reason materializes as R in the Near east.

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    Quote Originally Posted by IronSide View Post
    Both R1a and R1b have basal subclades in the Near east, and only from a single point on their respective trees do we see European subclades that would later spread with IE migrations.

    If complexity of basal subclades means anything to you, then this means that R1b-P297 and R1a-M17 were the only ones that migrated to Europe during the Mesolithic, posiibly from Anatolia to the Balkans and then to the steppes.

    The oldest R1a is from Ukraine 8825-8561 calBCE, and the oldest R1b is from Epigravettian Italy 12230-11830 calBCE (12140±70 BP).

    R1b-V88 was left behind in the Middle east, same as R1b-L388*, R1b-PH155, R1b-M335, R1a-YP1272, R1a-YP4141.

    We can even say that the entire R2 was left in the Near east, migrating later to India with the Neolithic, this would of course mean that the R* we found in Mal*ta, Siberia for some reason materializes as R in the Near east.
    as for R1a, R1a1 migrated to Europe but R1a2 might have migrated to SW Asia
    all subclades of R1a1 seem European
    R1a1b are the combed ware folks
    R1a1a1 seems Indo-Europeanised, founding father of both CW and Sintashta

    R1b is more complicated, it split up earlier and some of the early clades seem to have arrived in SW Asia, while others arrived in Europe

    R2, as you say is pretty straightforward, they arrived in the Zagros Mountains, became herders and spread east and south from there

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    Quote Originally Posted by Genetiker View Post
    I thought that the megaliths in NW Africa might be from the Bronze Age, but I wasn't sure. Do you know of any online sources that discuss their dates? I assume that Bronze Age here means around 2000 BC.
    To answer my own question, the NW African megaliths appear to be from the Neolithic, not the Bronze Age. This page on the Mzora stone circle in Morocco, which is the largest stone ellipse in the world, states:

    The site itself is a Neolithic ellipse of 168 surviving stones of the 175 originally believed to have existed. The tallest of these stones is over 5m in height. The ellipse has a major axis of 59.29 metres and a minor axis of 56.18 metres. At the centre of the ring, and quite probably a much later addition, is a large tumulus (the tomb of Antaeus?).
    As hinted at by Geoffrey of Monmouth above, Mzora, incredibly, appears to have been constructed either by the same culture that erected the megalithic sites in France, Britain and Ireland or by one that was intimately connected with them. The ellipse is constructed using a Pythagorean right angled triangle of the ratio 12, 35, 37. This same technique was used in the construction of British stone ellipses of which 30 good examples survive including the Sands of Forvie and Daviot rings.
    And this page says that the dolmens at Eles, Tunisia, are thought to be from around 2500 BC, which is during the Neolithic, not the Bronze Age.

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    Quote Originally Posted by IronSide View Post
    Both R1a and R1b have basal subclades in the Near east, and only from a single point on their respective trees do we see European subclades that would later spread with IE migrations.

    If complexity of basal subclades means anything to you, then this means that R1b-P297 and R1a-M17 were the only ones that migrated to Europe during the Mesolithic, posiibly from Anatolia to the Balkans and then to the steppes.
    Your comments indicate that you didn't read the thread. The ancient DNA evidence is showing that both R1b-V88 and R1b-P297 arose from R1b-L754 in Europe during the Paleolithic, around 17,000 years ago, somewhere in the area from Italy to Ukraine that was occupied by the Epigravettian culture. There's also no reason to think that R1a originated anywhere but Europe.

    Quote Originally Posted by IronSide View Post
    The oldest R1a is from Ukraine 8825-8561 calBCE, and the oldest R1b is from Epigravettian Italy 12230-11830 calBCE (12140±70 BP).
    That R1a sample, I1819, is labeled only R1a, and not something more derived, which supports a European origin for R1a.

    Villabruna is most likely R1b-L754*, which supports a European origin for V88 and P297.

    Quote Originally Posted by IronSide View Post
    R1b-V88 was left behind in the Middle east, same as R1b-L388*, R1b-PH155, R1b-M335, R1a-YP1272, R1a-YP4141.
    R1b-V88 wasn't "left behind in the Middle east". The Iron Gates sample SC1 and the Spanish sample I0410 are showing that V88 originated in European hunter-gatherers, and that its M18 and Y7777 branches later entered the early European farmer population. Some of those European farmers belonging to the Y7777 branch then migrated to Africa or the Middle East around 5000 BC, where the Y7771 branch originated.

    The other R1b and R1a branches that you mention are found in both Europe and the Middle East, so there are no grounds for assuming that they originated in the Middle East.

    This page shows R1b-L389(xP297) in samples of European origin from various places, including Belarus, Puerto Rico, Greece, and Italy.

    The same page also shows R1b-PH155 and R1b-PH155-M335 in European samples, from Russia, Germany, and Italy.

    This page shows R1a-YP1272 in samples from Belarus, the Czech Republic, Italy, and Russia.

    The same page also shows R1a-YP4141 in samples with origins in England, Ireland, Scotland, and Italy.

    Quote Originally Posted by IronSide View Post
    We can even say that the entire R2 was left in the Near east, migrating later to India with the Neolithic, this would of course mean that the R* we found in Mal*ta, Siberia for some reason materializes as R in the Near east.
    There's no doubt that R2 has early origins in the Middle East, because my analyses showed that it was present Neolithic samples from Iran. Those same analyses showed that, except for one R1b-L389(xP297) sample from Bronze Age Armenia, R1 was absent in the ancient Middle East. That fact combined with the abundance of R1 in Paleolithic and Mesolithic European samples strongly points to a European origin of most if not all branches of R1.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Genetiker View Post
    Your comments indicate that you didn't read the thread. The ancient DNA evidence is showing that both R1b-V88 and R1b-P297 arose from R1b-L754 in Europe during the Paleolithic, around 17,000 years ago, somewhere in the area from Italy to Ukraine that was occupied by the Epigravettian culture. There's also no reason to think that R1a originated anywhere but Europe.



    That R1a sample, I1819, is labeled only R1a, and not something more derived, which supports a European origin for R1a.

    Villabruna is most likely R1b-L754*, which supports a European origin for V88 and P297.



    R1b-V88 wasn't "left behind in the Middle east". The Iron Gates sample SC1 and the Spanish sample I0410 are showing that V88 originated in European hunter-gatherers, and that its M18 and Y7777 branches later entered the early European farmer population. Some of those European farmers belonging to the Y7777 branch then migrated to Africa or the Middle East around 5000 BC, where the Y7771 branch originated.

    The other R1b and R1a branches that you mention are found in both Europe and the Middle East, so there are no grounds for assuming that they originated in the Middle East.

    This page shows R1b-L389(xP297) in samples of European origin from various places, including Belarus, Puerto Rico, Greece, and Italy.

    The same page also shows R1b-PH155 and R1b-PH155-M335 in European samples, from Russia, Germany, and Italy.

    This page shows R1a-YP1272 in samples from Belarus, the Czech Republic, Italy, and Russia.

    The same page also shows R1a-YP4141 in samples with origins in England, Ireland, Scotland, and Italy.



    There's no doubt that R2 has early origins in the Middle East, because my analyses showed that it was present Neolithic samples from Iran. Those same analyses showed that, except for one R1b-L389(xP297) sample from Bronze Age Armenia, R1 was absent in the ancient Middle East. That fact combined with the abundance of R1 in Paleolithic and Mesolithic European samples strongly points to a European origin of most if not all branches of R1.
    Just a thought with the aim to make order: is it possible this view about origins, i.e. V88 in the Balkans, P297 north-east from it, M269 between Poland and Ukraine, M73 Ukraine?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brennos View Post
    Just a thought with the aim to make order: is it possible this view about origins, i.e. V88 in the Balkans, P297 north-east from it, M269 between Poland and Ukraine, M73 Ukraine?
    Yes, V88 probably originated in the Balkans.

    P297, M269, and M73 had to have originated east of the Balkans, or they would appear in early farmer samples.

    The absence of P297 in the Mesolithic and Neolithic Ukrainian samples, the M73 in the Samara and Latvian hunter-gatherers, and the M269 in the Russian Pit Grave samples all point to a Russian origin of P297, M269, and M73.

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    P297 and M73 - M269 probably too - seem to have originated in the Baltic area and pushed south by the incoming R1a1b comb ceramic tribes

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    For the West Asian and West African subclades I've always said the Iberian Penninsula is the effective V-88 homeland.

    And right now it looks like most if not all of modern day R1b lineages originated in Europe and began to disperse during thae Eneolithic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Genetiker View Post
    Your comments indicate that you didn't read the thread. The ancient DNA evidence is showing that both R1b-V88 and R1b-P297 arose from R1b-L754 in Europe during the Paleolithic, around 17,000 years ago, somewhere in the area from Italy to Ukraine that was occupied by the Epigravettian culture. There's also no reason to think that R1a originated anywhere but Europe.
    That R1a sample, I1819, is labeled only R1a, and not something more derived, which supports a European origin for R1a.
    Villabruna is most likely R1b-L754*, which supports a European origin for V88 and P297.
    R1b-V88 wasn't "left behind in the Middle east". The Iron Gates sample SC1 and the Spanish sample I0410 are showing that V88 originated in European hunter-gatherers, and that its M18 and Y7777 branches later entered the early European farmer population. Some of those European farmers belonging to the Y7777 branch then migrated to Africa or the Middle East around 5000 BC, where the Y7771 branch originated.
    The other R1b and R1a branches that you mention are found in both Europe and the Middle East, so there are no grounds for assuming that they originated in the Middle East.
    This page shows R1b-L389(xP297) in samples of European origin from various places, including Belarus, Puerto Rico, Greece, and Italy.
    The same page also shows R1b-PH155 and R1b-PH155-M335 in European samples, from Russia, Germany, and Italy.
    This page shows R1a-YP1272 in samples from Belarus, the Czech Republic, Italy, and Russia.
    The same page also shows R1a-YP4141 in samples with origins in England, Ireland, Scotland, and Italy.
    There's no doubt that R2 has early origins in the Middle East, because my analyses showed that it was present Neolithic samples from Iran. Those same analyses showed that, except for one R1b-L389(xP297) sample from Bronze Age Armenia, R1 was absent in the ancient Middle East. That fact combined with the abundance of R1 in Paleolithic and Mesolithic European samples strongly points to a European origin of most if not all branches of R1.
    What you do not understand on the behalf of R1b-L389(xP297) is that most basal of this clade is found in the Near East. I myself belong to this clade. All the European (Puerto Rico, Italy) belong to the same subclade of V1636 (V1274). The BA Armenian clade of L389 is non existent anymore (or not found at least). Undoubtfully, this is a Paleolithic Near Eastern haplogroup.

    HG00640 R-V1636* A
    YF10512 R-Y106006 G
    YF12189 R-Y106006 G
    V1274: hg 19 7613234 (G>A) is positive not only for Italian Mangino and the Jewish cluster, but also for the Iberian cluster, but not for the NE cluster, thus the Near Eastern cluster separated before from these ones. (from forum molgen)

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    Quote Originally Posted by raspberry View Post
    What you do not understand on the behalf of R1b-L389(xP297) is that most basal of this clade is found in the Near East. I myself belong to this clade. All the European (Puerto Rico, Italy) belong to the same subclade of V1636 (V1274). The BA Armenian clade of L389 is non existent anymore (or not found at least). Undoubtfully, this is a Paleolithic Near Eastern haplogroup.

    HG00640 R-V1636* A
    YF10512 R-Y106006 G
    YF12189 R-Y106006 G
    V1274: hg 19 7613234 (G>A) is positive not only for Italian Mangino and the Jewish cluster, but also for the Iberian cluster, but not for the NE cluster, thus the Near Eastern cluster separated before from these ones. (from forum molgen)
    These are modern samples though and there is little correlation, especially in the West in comparison pre-bronze age samples

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