does R1b-V88 originate from the Iron Gate ?

[bicicleur]

Mathieson 2107 :

Appendix A: The Iron Gates region has a more-or-less continuous record of Stone Age settlement from c.12700–5500 cal BCE , and over 400 Mesolithic and Early Neolithic burials have beenrecorded from 15 sites.

The mesolithic Iron Gate Y-DNA found are I2a1, I2a2a(1b2) and R1b1a-L754xL388.
Autosomal they were 87 % WHG and 13 % EHG, no signs of Anatolian EEF or Transcaucasian CHG.

R1b1a-L754xL388 leaves open 3 options for the descendants of these Iron Gate HG : https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-L754/

- R1b-L754*
- R1b-V88
- all gone extinct

TMRCA of R1b-V88 is 11.7 ka, 3000 years after arrival of first mesolithic HG in the Iron Gates

The oldest anciant R1b-V88 DNA we have :

- Khvalynsk 7.2-6 ka R1b1-L278, possibly pré-V88
He was mainly EHG, but possesed also some substantial CHG and a little WHG.
He very likely came from south of the Caucasus.

- Els Trocs herders, 7.1 ka, R1b-V88.
Mainly EEF with some WHG, so he probably got there with the Cardial Ware people.



early neolithic Iberia
with dating table I here :
https://www.academia.edu/673004/Earl...rian_peninsula
There are several subclades of R1b-V88 in Sardegna, some of them likely got there with Cardial Ware.

Furthermore the Chadic R1b-V88 herders are supposed to have entered Africa through the Levant betwwen 8 ka and 5.5 ka.


Mathieson 2017 notes that the Iron Gates hunter-gatherers268 carry mitochondrial haplogroups K1 (8/36) as well as other subclades of haplogroup U269 (27/36) and haplogroup H (1/36). This contrasts with WHG, EHG and Scandinavian hunter-270 gatherers who almost all carry haplogroup U5 or U2. Therefore the Iron Gates hunter-271 gatherers have ancestry that is not present in WHG or EHG. This suggests either genetic272 contact between the ancestors of the Iron Gates population and hunter-gatherers from273 Anatolia, or that the Iron Gates population is related to the source population from which the274 WHG split off during a post-LGM re-expansion into Europe.

So, is it possible that one man, R1b-V88 or pré-R1b-V88 got from the Iron Gates into Anatolia and there became the founding father of R1b-V88?
What alternative origins for R1b-V88 could there be?

[Sile]

Mathieson 2107 :

Appendix A: The Iron Gates region has a more-or-less continuous record of Stone Age settlement from c.12700–5500 cal BCE , and over 400 Mesolithic and Early Neolithic burials have beenrecorded from 15 sites.

The mesolithic Iron Gate Y-DNA found are I2a1, I2a2a(1b2) and R1b1a-L754xL388.
Autosomal they were 87 % WHG and 13 % EHG, no signs of Anatolian EEF or Transcaucasian CHG.

R1b1a-L754xL388 leaves open 3 options for the descendants of these Iron Gate HG : https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-L754/

- R1b-L754*
- R1b-V88
- all gone extinct

TMRCA of R1b-V88 is 11.7 ka, 3000 years after arrival of first mesolithic HG in the Iron Gates

The oldest anciant R1b-V88 DNA we have :

- Khvalynsk 7.2-6 ka R1b1-L278, possibly pré-V88
He was mainly EHG, but possesed also some substantial CHG and a little WHG.
He very likely came from south of the Caucasus.

- Els Trocs herders, 7.1 ka, R1b-V88.
Mainly EEF with some WHG, so he probably got there with the Cardial Ware people.



early neolithic Iberia
with dating table I here :
https://www.academia.edu/673004/Earl...rian_peninsula
There are several subclades of R1b-V88 in Sardegna, some of them likely got there with Cardial Ware.

Furthermore the Chadic R1b-V88 herders are supposed to have entered Africa through the Levant betwwen 8 ka and 5.5 ka.


Mathieson 2017 notes that the Iron Gates hunter-gatherers268 carry mitochondrial haplogroups K1 (8/36) as well as other subclades of haplogroup U269 (27/36) and haplogroup H (1/36). This contrasts with WHG, EHG and Scandinavian hunter-270 gatherers who almost all carry haplogroup U5 or U2. Therefore the Iron Gates hunter-271 gatherers have ancestry that is not present in WHG or EHG. This suggests either genetic272 contact between the ancestors of the Iron Gates population and hunter-gatherers from273 Anatolia, or that the Iron Gates population is related to the source population from which the274 WHG split off during a post-LGM re-expansion into Europe.

So, is it possible that one man, R1b-V88 or pré-R1b-V88 got from the Iron Gates into Anatolia and there became the founding father of R1b-V88?
What alternative origins for R1b-V88 could there be?

R1b-V88 is recorded as entering the northern levant 9000 years ago and reaching egypt 7000 years ago .............is the marker pontic or western black sea ?

[Cip]

Intresting that mt haplogroup U6 also originated in the same region. Oldest U6 sample was from ''Pestera Muierilor'' Romania

[Garrick]

Mathieson 2107 :

Appendix A: The Iron Gates region has a more-or-less continuous record of Stone Age settlement from c.12700–5500 cal BCE , and over 400 Mesolithic and Early Neolithic burials have beenrecorded from 15 sites.

The mesolithic Iron Gate Y-DNA found are I2a1, I2a2a(1b2) and R1b1a-L754xL388.
Autosomal they were 87 % WHG and 13 % EHG, no signs of Anatolian EEF or Transcaucasian CHG.

R1b1a-L754xL388 leaves open 3 options for the descendants of these Iron Gate HG : https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-L754/

- R1b-L754*
- R1b-V88
- all gone extinct

TMRCA of R1b-V88 is 11.7 ka, 3000 years after arrival of first mesolithic HG in the Iron Gates

The oldest anciant R1b-V88 DNA we have :

- Khvalynsk 7.2-6 ka R1b1-L278, possibly pré-V88
He was mainly EHG, but possesed also some substantial CHG and a little WHG.
He very likely came from south of the Caucasus.

- Els Trocs herders, 7.1 ka, R1b-V88.
Mainly EEF with some WHG, so he probably got there with the Cardial Ware people.



early neolithic Iberia
with dating table I here :
https://www.academia.edu/673004/Earl...rian_peninsula
There are several subclades of R1b-V88 in Sardegna, some of them likely got there with Cardial Ware.

Furthermore the Chadic R1b-V88 herders are supposed to have entered Africa through the Levant betwwen 8 ka and 5.5 ka.


Mathieson 2017 notes that the Iron Gates hunter-gatherers268 carry mitochondrial haplogroups K1 (8/36) as well as other subclades of haplogroup U269 (27/36) and haplogroup H (1/36). This contrasts with WHG, EHG and Scandinavian hunter-270 gatherers who almost all carry haplogroup U5 or U2. Therefore the Iron Gates hunter-271 gatherers have ancestry that is not present in WHG or EHG. This suggests either genetic272 contact between the ancestors of the Iron Gates population and hunter-gatherers from273 Anatolia, or that the Iron Gates population is related to the source population from which the274 WHG split off during a post-LGM re-expansion into Europe.

So, is it possible that one man, R1b-V88 or pré-R1b-V88 got from the Iron Gates into Anatolia and there became the founding father of R1b-V88?
What alternative origins for R1b-V88 could there be?

In Serbia in culture of Lepen Whirl, R1b1a-L754 is found at the more locations and epochs. The oldest one is found at Padina: 9221-8548 BC, and the youngest at Padina too: 6061-5841 BC.

I suppose that samples R1b1a-L754 in Serbia (in period about 3000 years) are all V88.

It is very interesting this population was for a long time in these areas.

[bicicleur]

they had a very intriguing culture and lifestyle

[Fatherland]

Migration from the northeast. R1b and R1a in general are young haplogroups, so they diversified rather recently.

[MarkoZ]

It would be difficult to imagine that a Mesolithic population in the Balkans learnt agriculture and migrated to Africa in time. The culturally developed Mesolithic groups in Europe did not readily adopt agriculture until the terminal Neolithic.


A more interesting possibilty would be a common source of Lepenski Vir and those Africans closer to the fertile crescent.

[bicicleur]

it is not about a whole population, it is about 1 single man, the founding fater of R1b-V88

furthermore the genetic evidence demonstrates more and more that the HG could maintain themselves very well in the settled farming societies
maybe they even had an advantage over the farmers, they were more mobile and more versatile than the farmers
upto the chalcolithic the weight of WHG kept growing

	Estimated propotion
Pop	WHG	AN
Peloponnese_Neolithic	0,5%	99,5%
Balkans_Neolithic	1,9%	98,1%
LBK_EN	4,9%	95,1%
Balkans_Combined	5,1%	94,9%
LBK_Austria	6,3%	93,7%
Balkans_Chalcolithic	6,8%	93,2%
Iberia_EN	8,1%	91,9%
Central_Combined	11,0%	89,0%
Varna	11,6%	88,4%
Trypillia	13,4%	86,6%
Malak_Preslavets	15,7%	84,3%
Central_MN	18,0%	82,0%
Iberia_Combined	19,9%	80,1%
Iberia_MN	22,5%	77,5%
Globular_Amphora	24,7%	75,3%
Iberia_Chalcolithic	26,4%	73,6%

during the chalcolithic maybe they were better in finding ores and organizing transport and trade than the settled farmers who had become immobalised in their settlements

also in the Iron Gate itself, they created a unique culture, trading goods with the Aegean, they certainly weren't overwhelmed by the farmers
I think many farmers envied their lifestyle

as for the low WHG % in the Balkans, keep in mind that the Balkans were depopulated during the mesolithic, the farmers there settled in empty land

as for the LBK, keep in mind that most of the LBK farmers just farmed, they didn't hunt or fish themselves and they occupied only a very small proportion of the land, only the most fertile and ligth land to work on, they were not able to farm other lands, which left much hunting and fishing grounds open for the original HG

this is a map of soils in Saxony, Germany :

Lange_diercke_sachsen_freistaat_sachsen_hauptbodenarten.jpg

only the brown parts are löss grounds, that are the only parts the LBK people could work on
all the other land remained HG land

[LeBrok]

It would be difficult to imagine that a Mesolithic population in the Balkans learnt agriculture and migrated to Africa in time. The culturally developed Mesolithic groups in Europe did not readily adopt agriculture until the terminal Neolithic.


A more interesting possibilty would be a common source of Lepenski Vir and those Africans closer to the fertile crescent.

Good point. Let's keep in mind that explosion and migration of R1a and R1b happened in Neolithic when they have mixed with farmers and became farmers themselves. In case of V88, it needed to be in farmers/herders communities by Neolithic in Europe, in order to expand in numbers and migrate to Africa. Through all the other ethnic groups and civilizations on their way to Africa. So far we didn't find V88 in European Neolithic.

[Sile]

as for the LBK, keep in mind that most the LBK farmers just farmed, they didn't hunt or fish and they occupied only a very small proportion of the land, only the most fertile and ligth land to work on, they were not able to farm other lands, which left much hunting and fishing grounds open for the original HG

very strange theory .............so proto-farmers did nothing? ...........wrong

so LBK farmers where EEF only and where nothing before this? ...........wrong

So LBK where not potters, I think all farmers still hunted , herded and potted .............one would have to be naive if one thought otherwise

[bicicleur]

very strange theory .............so proto-farmers did nothing? ...........wrong

so LBK farmers where EEF only and where nothing before this? ...........wrong

So LBK where not potters, I think all farmers still hunted , herded and potted .............one would have to be naive if one thought otherwise

it is what archeology showed
in many areas the LBK farmers didn't consume game or fish, just their own vegetables, dairy products and meat of domesticates

[Angela]

It's not like you to engage in so much conjecture and speculation, Bicicleur.

How the heck can you possibly know the following:
"during the chalcolithic maybe they were better in finding ores and organizing transport and trade than the settled farmers who had become immobalised in their settlements"

As for the amount of WHG, it took 2,000 years for the EEF to decide to mate with them. We don't really know why some primarily I2a2 men were adopted into their cultures at some point. As Jean Manco pointed out a few years ago, it's quite possible that as the climate worsened in the north there was a gradual movement south into farmer lands.

As for there being few EEF people, everything we've learned about population growth absolutely contradicts that, including the areas which they settled.

This is LBK alone:


The only places where there were remaining large groups of hunter gatherers were near big waterways and near the Sea, as in the far northeast. It's not a coincidence that the modern people with the highest percentages of WHG are from that area. There was also a reservoir of them, I believe to the east, partially mixed with EHG, because the farmers never penetrated there. Where the farmers did penetrate, they were either absorbed or marginalized, as was the case in the New World. The Iron Gates community totally disappeared relatively quickly.

Those are also vast generalizations about LBK. Some communities, and more as time went by did indeed practice hunting and fishing to supplement resources.

[bicicleur]

Good point. Let's keep in mind that explosion and migration of R1a and R1b happened in Neolithic when they have mixed with farmers and became farmers themselves. In case of V88, it needed to be in farmers/herders communities by Neolithic in Europe, in order to expand in numbers and migrate to Africa. Through all the other ethnic groups and civilizations on their way to Africa. So far we didn't find V88 in European Neolithic.

again, I am not talking about a whole population, I am talking about 1 single man, the founding father of R1b-V88, dated 11.7 ka
he could have sneaked into Anatolia by then, from the Iron gates
11.7 ka Anatolia was still HG territory

[Angela]

again, I am not talking about a whole population, I am talking about 1 single man, the founding father of R1b-V88, dated 11.7 ka
he could have sneaked into Anatolia by then, from the Iron gates
11.7 ka Anatolia was still HG territory

Or R1b-V88 was in Anatolia and in different periods moved into Europe.

[bicicleur]

It's not like you to engage in so much conjecture and speculation, Bicicleur.

How the heck can you possibly know the following:
"during the chalcolithic maybe they were better in finding ores and organizing transport and trade than the settled farmers who had become immobalised in their settlements"

As for the amount of WHG, it took 2,000 years for the EEF to decide to mate with them. We don't really know why some primarily I2a2 men were adopted into their cultures at some point. As Jean Manco pointed out a few years ago, it's quite possible that as the climate worsened in the north there was a gradual movement south into farmer lands.

As for there being few EEF people, everything we've learned about population growth absolutely contradicts that, including the areas which they settled.

This is LBK alone:


The only places where there were remaining large groups of hunter gatherers were near big waterways and near the Sea, as in the far northeast. It's not a coincidence that the modern people with the highest percentages of WHG are from that area. There was also a reservoir of them, I believe to the east, partially mixed with EHG, because the farmers never penetrated there. Where the farmers did penetrate, they were either absorbed or assimilated. The Iron Gates community totally disappeared relatively quickly.

Those are also vast generalizations about LBK. Some communities, and more as time went by did indeed practice hunting and fishing to supplement resources.

this is a map of soils in Saxony, Germany :



only the brown and some of the pink parts are löss grounds, that are the only parts the LBK people could work on
all the other land remained HG land

the situation has been studied in Blätterhöhle and Ostorf

why, after a few centuries some of the LBK tribes were fighting each other, even when there was still plenty of space in between?
maybe they ran out of good soils they could cultivate

as for your theory of climate change and HG coming in from the north, I don't think it can explain the growing weight of HG in Iberia

how do you explain the neolithic in the British Isles without G2a2, only I2 ?

another map of Löss soils in Europe

LBK Loess soil map geklasseerde info.jpg
the area with Löss soil is bounded to the north by the places that were covered with glaciars and polar desert (permafrost) during LGM, but even within the Löss soil area, there was more space without Löss deposit than soil with

[LeBrok]

I think many farmers envied their lifestyle

Seems like you are extrapolating your personal feelings on Neolithic Farmers. I'd say, on occasions farmers behaved like hunter-gatherer. Sometimes they did a bit of hunting and fishing, and sometimes they picked berries and mushrooms.

[bicicleur]

Seems like you are extrapolating your personal feelings on Neolithic Farmers. I'd say, on occasions farmers behaved like hunter-gatherer. Sometimes they did a bit of hunting and fishing, and sometimes they picked berries and mushrooms.

the Iron Gate is a particular case with a special ecological niche
it was so rich in fish, it was heaven for fishers and hunters
their life was much easier than the farmers life

google and check 'Lepenski Vir'

[LeBrok]

the Iron Gate is a particular case with a special ecological niche
it was so rich in fish, it was heaven for fishers and hunters
their life was much easier than the farmers life

Live in a tent through winter, surrounded by wild animal, and eat only fish from the river, and say it again next year. I would rather stay in the safety of the village, dressed in linen clothes, eating bread, pork, eggs and drinking milk (as kid), attend dances and listen to music.

[bicicleur]

Live in a tent through winter, surrounded by wild animal, and eat only fish from the river, and say it again next year. I would rather stay in the safety of the village, dressed in linen clothes, eating bread, pork, eggs and drinking milk (as kid), attend dances and listen to music.

they didn't live in tents, they had huts with plastered floors and a hearth
furthermore they got shells from the Aegean by trade
if they wanted cereals, the certainly could get this from trade as well
and the forests were rich in berries and nuts

again, check 'Lepenski Vir' before you comment on this

oh, and watch this :

Muse_Trento_6.jpg

do you think her life was fun?

[bicicleur]

again, we're getting drawn away here
I intended this thread about 1 single man, 11.7 ka the founding father of R1b-V88
that was way before farming in Europe, even before farming in Anatolia

[bicicleur]

Or R1b-V88 was in Anatolia and in different periods moved into Europe.

yes, maybe, but the Iron Gate population was not substantially admixed with EEF or CHG

R1b-V88 may have originated elsewhere alltogether, but no other DNA has been sampled uptill now that is likely to be ancestral to R1b-V88

I just started this thread to discuss the possibility that R1b-V88 may have originated in another place than was anticipated by almost everyone uptill now, when this Iron Gate DNA has been published

[Angela]

The farmers envied hunter-gatherers? Where do we ever see that in those areas of the world where people from those two subsistence groups live in close contact?

Now we have crystal balls to look into the hearts and minds of ancient peoples? If we're going to impose our own feelings on ancient people I'm with LeBrok. I've been camping. It's fun for a week or so and then that's enough. Not even all men want to live in the wild. I could never get my husband to go on a single camping trip. Heck, he wouldn't even go on a beach vacation if the hotel or "bagno" didn't have a bar or at least bar service on the beach. He used to say it was uncivilized. :)

Maybe it is women, though, who pushed so hard for farming. :) I've read quite a bit about hunter-gatherers. The men do indeed seem to be lazy buggers. They do the hunting and fishing yes, not very dangerous when you're hunting deer and fishing with nets, they also throw those spears around at men from other groups if they try to poach either the women or the wildlife, and the rest of the time they seem to lie around telling stories. The women are always working because that work is endless: in addition to childbirth and rearing, and cleaning up, and cooking, they do the gathering, the making of the clothes, and probably the drying of the fish and the maintaining of the shelters, and later on the making of ceramics. Not, of course, that farmer women didn't also work very hard, but at least the men had to work too.

Then there's the fact that hunter-gathering as a lifestyle leads no where in terms of cultural evolution.

The Iron Gate people disappeared. They were either absorbed or they left.

I know about loess soils, Bicicleur, but you're conflating the very early periods with the continued expansion over 2,000 years. The conflict also is probably tied to climate change. If the farmers were hurting so would any hg people left who wanted to trade with them. In Iberia, they had probably hidden out in the mountains, as invaded peoples always do.

[bicicleur]

I didn't say HG were better of than farmers, I said it only for the Iron Gate.
They didn't live in tents and had plenty of food.
And I'm not sure their lifestyle didn't lead to nowhere in terms of cultural evolution.
It looks like there was.
But indeed finaly they got absorbed.
It looks like the place got overcrowded.

The LBK farmers were confined to Löss soils, not later farmers.
But that may be the reason the HG were not overwhelmed.
It gave some of them the time to adapt somehow, but without having to copy the lifestyle of the LBK farmers.
I'm sure those HG who didn't adapt in some way or another didn't survive in the end, but that goes for the LBK farmers too.
Both had to find improved ways to survive in the long run.
But the sucessful HG did it from another stance than the succesful farmers.
And we see the weight of HG increase all the time.

As for Iberia, I don't think all HG were hidden in the mountains.
As I mentioned in another thread, the megaliths in Evora allready existed before Carded Ware and it looks like the megalithic farmers in Iberia were very rich in WHG DNA (both Y and mt).

Maybe you're right about the women.
Being HG looks more fun than being farmer for a man, but not for a woman.

[Cip]

There was a study on the bones of the Iron Gates older hunters and newer farmers. The hunter-gatherers were much better fed than farmers. From the teeth analysis was discovered that the period of breastfeeding was longer so the general health was better. They had good teeth, unlike farmers who had a lot of dental caries.
Is a very rich area not only in fish, but also in many other resources. They lived in pretty sophisticated communities, they also had a form of religion, a lot of free time, a pretty good life.

[LeBrok]

There was a study on the bones of the Iron Gates older hunters and newer farmers. The hunter-gatherers were much better fed than farmers. From the teeth analysis was discovered that the period of breastfeeding was longer so the general health was better. They had good teeth, unlike farmers who had a lot of dental caries.
Is a very rich area not only in fish, but also in many other resources. They lived in pretty sophisticated communities, they also had a form of religion, a lot of free time, a pretty good life.

So, any idea why h-gs and their culture vanished, and farmers survived, multiplied and farming continued since, till today in this particular area? Shouldn't it been in reverse if hunters where healthier, bigger and stronger and had more food to feed their offspring?