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    Quote Originally Posted by LABERIA View Post
    I think you are wrong.

    2002
    Miranda Vickers:
    The Cham Issue: Albanian National and Property Claims in Greece

    Introduction

    The Chams are the ethnic Albanian, and predominantly Muslim, population from the area of north western Greece known to Greeks as Threspotia and to Albanians as Chameria. The region, which is centred around the Tsamis river, extends from Butrint and the mouth of the Acheron River to Lake Prespa in the north, eastward to the Pindus mountains and south as far as Preveza and the Gulf of Arta. Nineteenth century British travellers such as Lord Byron and his companion John Hobhouse noted the preponderance of Albanian-speakers in these regions.


    Historical Background

    The name 'Chameria' comes from the ancient Illyrian name for the Tsamis River, which traversed the territory of the ancient Illyrian tribe of Thesprotes. Chameria was part of the Roman Empire before being conquered by the Byzantines, and in the thirteenth century it became part of the Epirus despotate. In the second half of the fourteenth century it was included in the Albanian despotate of Arta. After the Ottoman invasion in the 15th century it was firstly in the sanjak (municipality) of Delvina, then in that of Janina. In the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries, the mostly Albanian population of northern Chameria - from Konispol to the Gliqi river - was forcibly converted to Islam, whilst those living south of the Gliqi down to Preveza Bay remained Orthodox Christians.
    After the defeat of the Ottoman forces during the Balkan Wars (1912-1913), the future of Albanian-inhabited areas was discussed at the hastily convened Conference of Ambassadors held in London in December 1912-January 1913, where it was agreed in principle to support the establishment of Albania as a new political entity.
    Greece had emerged from the Balkan Wars with a heightened sense of achievement, and a determination to try to secure southern Albania for Greece. The emphasis was not on territory that was ethnically strictly Greek, but rather on lands in which Hellenic civilisation was believed to be predominant. (8) In October 1913 the Epirote insurrection broke out, as Greek volunteers raided southern Albania, terrorising its inhabitants by burning their villages. The Greek objective was to set up an autonomous Vorio Epirus (Northern Epirus), in an attempt to sabotage the international discussions then being held in Florence on the future status of the region. Finally in December 1913, the Powers agreed on the terms of the Protocol of Florence, whereby, in return for Serbia's retreat from Albanian territory, Austria reluctantly agreed that the Albanian districts in what is now Kosovo and Macedonia should be formerly ceded to Serbia, whilst Greece received the large southern region of Chameria. The Albanian state was thus reduced to the central regions together with the town of Shkodër and its surrounding territory.
    Following the establishment of the Florence Line, some Greek troops began to withdraw from Chameria. Greek terrorist bands, however, remained as active as ever. As the majority of Chams were Muslim, they were treated with the same contempt as ethnic Turks living in Greece. On 23 February 1913, 72 people were killed in the village of Proi i Selanit near Paramithia. This marked the beginning of attacks on Albanian Muslim civilian targets, which were designed to instil fear into the population and thus prompt them to leave their homes. Throughout the next decade, the property of Albanian Muslims was systematically looted and many young men were deported to internal exile on the Aegean islands. Thousands of hectares of Cham-owned land were expropriated without compensation, their harvests were requisitioned, and they were prohibited from sowing their corn, or from selling or letting their property to forestall its expropriation. It was thus rendered impossible for many families to remain in Greece - forcing them to flee northwards to Albanian in search of land. (9) In an effort to settle the Cham issue, the Athens government had tried to gain Ankara's approval for encouraging some Chams to migrate to Turkey, in the hope that the rest would follow. Initially Ankara had been unwilling to allow the settlement of Albanian Muslims on Turkish soil, but following intense diplomatic efforts by Athens, the Turkish government agreed to allow the settlement of some 5,000 Chams.
    Meanwhile, in 1923, the position regarding the 20,000 or so Muslim Albanians still remaining in northern Greece was being hotly debated at a special session of the Council of the League of Nations. The convention that made possible the exchange of Greek and Turkish populations had been signed at the Lausanne Conference on 30 January 1923. The Albanian government had then insisted, via telegrams and delegations to the League, that the Greek authorities were forcing the Chams to leave their homes and move to Turkey, and that their lands were being settled by Greek immigrants from Asia Minor. The Greeks countered these accusations by arguing that the term 'Albanian' could only be applied to those who were born in Albania, thereby excluding from consideration the Greek-born Albanian Muslims, who were equated with Turks. The League responded to the Albanian allegations by establishing a Mixed Commission to examine the question in detail.
    In March 1924, the Commission decided that Greek subjects who were Muslims and of Albanian origin, and more specifically those residing in Epirus, had to be excluded from the compulsory exchange of populations between Greece and Turkey. (10) For the Albanian Chams, however, the issue centred around their claims to belong to the Albanian nation. The Council of the League discussed this matter during its thirtieth session (29 August-3 October): the Albanian position maintained that the Greek authorities were encouraging the 'Albanians of Epirus' to consider mass migration by calling them 'Greeks of Turkish origin' and convincing them to adopt the second identity in their public pronouncements. The Council finally decided to appoint neutral members of the Mixed Commission as its 'mandatories' charged with the responsibility of protecting the 'Muslim minority of Albanian origin' residing in Greece. (11) Meanwhile, the Athens government settled Greek immigrants from Asia Minor in Chameria in order to populate it with Orthodox Christians, and to put further pressure on the remaining Albanian Muslims to emigrate. Throughout the 1920s entire villages, such as Petrovica and Shëndellinja were emptied of their Albanian inhabitants. Whole families left for Albania, Turkey and America.
    In March 1926, the Greek government declared that the process of population exchange was over and that the Chams would henceforth have the same rights as those enjoyed by other Greek citizens, However, these "rights" remained highly selective. No Albanian-language schools were permitted and the speaking of Albanian was discouraged outside the home. The signing of the Italian-Albanian pact in November 1926 caused some anxiety in Athens and focused Greek attention on the still unresolved question of the Chams, which was leading to increased tensions between Greece and Albania. The Greek Ministry of Foreign Affairs had serious reservations about the pact because it was feared that the interests of the Albanians for their "brothers" in Epirus now had the backing of an important power, whose territorial ambitions in the Balkans could benefit from the existence of the Cham minority which favoured Italy and was hostile to the Greek state. Italy could also use the Chams as a counterweight to Greek ambitions in southern Albania.
    Albanian charges directed against Greece concerning the Muslims of Chameria gradually increased and reached their climax during the first half of 1928. In March, the Albanian Foreign Ministry delivered a memorandum to the Greek chargé d'affaires in Tirana, which highlighted Tirana's concern over the 'austere measures' exercised by the local authorities against the Chams, and expressed a formal protest that the Greek government did not recognise them as a 'national minority'.
    The Greek side argued that 'the Albanian government had no right to get involved in the domestic affairs of another country: the Chams were Greek citizens and the projection of Albania as a protector state constituted disregard of the basic elements of Greek sovereign rights.' (12) With the coming to power of the Ioannis Metaxas fascist government in 1936, the situation of the Albanian population of Chameria became even more difficult. The colonisation of the area by Greeks intensified, confiscation of Cham property was stepped up and the names of places inhabited by Albanians were replaced by Greek place names. (13) In the meantime, the League of Nations continued to note the Albanian protests over the treatment of the Chams, but by then more important issues were now emerging concerning other minorities in Europe.
    Source:
    [reprint of: Miranda Vickers: The Cham Issue: Albanian National and Property Claims in Greece. ISBN 1-903584-76-0 (Conflict Studies Research Centre, Royal Military Academy Sandhurst, Surrey 2002), reprint in: Südosteuropa, Zeitschrift für Gegenwartsforschung, Munich, 2002, 51, 4-6, p. 228-249. For an update on the Cham issue, cf. Miranda Vickers: The Cham Issue, Where to Now?, January 2007, at: http://www.da.mod.uk/colleges/csrc/d...ings/balkan/ ]


    As you can see, an Albanian territory, inhabited since antiquity by Albanians, was given as a gift to Greece by the Great Powers. The region was invaded by Greece during the Balkan Wars. And from this moment Greece start a genocide against the authocthonous population of this region the Albanians. The intention is evident, ethnic cleaning. For 30 years the muslim Albanians were killed and expelled. At their place, Greece settled Christian Turks arrived from Asia Minor during the exchange of population between Turkey and Greece. The christian Albanians are not recognised as a minority. Do you know any Albanian school for this people in the region of Çamëria or South Epir today under Greek occupation? If you know, tell us please.
    About the conversion of the Albanians in Muslims, i don't think that you are the right person to discuss this.
    I asked in another thread to another greek member to show me a single battle of the greeks against the Ottomans during the invasion of Greece, roughly XIV-XV century. He didn't show me a single battle. The resistance of the Albanians against Ottomans and their role in saving Europe from the Ottoman invasion is well documented and recognized.
    But i want to be honest with you. When i asked your friend to show me a battle of greeks against the Ottomans, my intention was not to beat the chest, no. The point is there were greeks back in XIV-XV century? Because two centuries without a peep are too much. Sounds like the electrocardiograma of a dead person.
    Don't bother stating facts. They wont even listen to their own greek professors. Why should they listen to you?
    It will just exhaust you for no reward.

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I'm not quite sure I'm following the logic here. Is this just code for proposing a change of borders in accordance with hotly contested versions of medieval history?

    Honestly, from an outsider, I think your time would be better spent figuring out how to increase prosperity and quality of life for people no matter where they are.
    There are part of posts here in greek and not in English. Can you give a solution to this situation, please? Thank you.
    17 Dec.
    Paget to the Council.
    Now the Council's letters seem to imply (words quoted) that the King will keep no strangers save the Albanoys.
    Cales, 17 Dec. 1545. Signed.
    O me zhabat në moçale, o me zhgabat lart në male!
    -Petro Nini Luarasi-

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by LABERIA View Post
    Various stuff
    The Albanians came to Epirus in late medieval times, the Greeks of Epirus were just as 'autochthonous' and a minority of Albanians existed in the Greek part of Epirus along the coast much like a Greek minority existed in the Albanian part, in the Southwest at the time of the Balkan Wars. So there was no 'gifting' and there were respective 'occupations'. In that area, both states ended up incorporating territory that was mostly inhabited by their own people respectively with some minorities inevitably left out. I won't get into the more contentious issues. (Unless of course you're referring only to the specific part of Greek Epirus that was inhabited by Albanians, i.e. much of the Western part, in which case some of my comments can be safely ignored but based on past interactions you think that the whole of Epirus was inhabited only by Albanians and we're basically retreading the same ground here again and again, but apparently that's how it is)

    A text full of inaccuracies is apparently 'stating facts'.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LATGAL View Post
    The Albanians came to Epirus in late medieval times, the Greeks of Epirus were just as 'autochthonous' and a minority of Albanians existed in the Greek part of Epirus along the coast much like a Greek minority existed in the Albanian part, in the Southwest at the time of the Balkan Wars. So there was no 'gifting' and there were respective 'occupations'. In that area, both states ended up incorporating territory that was mostly inhabited by their own people respectively with some minorities inevitably left out. I won't get into the more contentious issues. (Unless of course you're referring only to the specific part of Greek Epirus that was inhabited by Albanians, i.e. much of the Western part, in which case some of my comments can be safely ignored but based on past interactions you think that the whole of Epirus was inhabited only by Albanians and we're basically retreading the same ground here again and again, but apparently that's how it is)

    A text full of inaccuracies is apparently 'stating facts'.
    Yes, all are inaccurate, leftist, marxists, jewish, etc. I can make a long answer to your post, but i am interested if you can elaborate your theory about this migration of the Albanians in Epir in late middle age.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LABERIA View Post
    Yes, all are inaccurate, leftist, marxists, jewish, etc. I can make a long answer to your post, but i am interested if you can elaborate your theory about this migration of the Albanians in Epir in late middle age.
    EDIT.
    About the discussion of the % of the Albanians in Greece. According to Paparrigopoulos, who was supposed to be the best prototype of a neogreek, among different others, was the mixture between greek and Albanians, something like this. Maybe you can help finding the correct quote from Paparrigopoulos.
    Last edited by LABERIA; 13-06-17 at 08:43.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LABERIA View Post
    EDIT.
    About the discussion of the % of the Albanians in Greece. According to Paparrigopoulos, the best neogreek was the mixture between greek and Albanians, something like this. Maybe you can help finding the correct quote from Paparrigopoulos.

    According Kolokotronis memoirs we see something else
    Beside yesterday was the Battle of Lalla
    Laberia plz tell us what Kolokotronis says at his Memories?

    I also suggest to read Λαμπρου-Muller work,


    it gives 10 000 the Albanians at Thessaly.
    ΟΘΕΝ ΑΙΔΩΣ OY EINAI
    ΑΤΗ ΛΑΜΒΑΝΕΙΝ ΑΥΤΟΙΣ
    ΥΒΡΙΣ ΓΕΝΝΑΤΑΙ
    ΝΕΜΕΣΙΣ ΚΑΙ ΤΙΣΗ ΑΚΟΛΟΥΘΟΥΣΙ ΔΕ

    When there is no shame
    Divine blindness conquers them
    Hybris (abuse, opprombium) is born
    Nemesis and punishment follows.

    Εχε υπομονη Ηρωα
    Η τιμωρια δεν αργει.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LABERIA View Post
    Yes, all are inaccurate, leftist, marxists, jewish, etc. I can make a long answer to your post, but i am interested if you can elaborate your theory about this migration of the Albanians in Epir in late middle age.
    I was referring to your summary below. The addition about "leftists, Marxists and Jews" is your own fantasy and you added that for very transparent reasons.

    The quoted text had its problems too but when we can't agree on some more basic things, which is fair enough and has become clear abundantly after plenty of conversations, there's little use to get into the details.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LATGAL View Post
    I was referring to your summary below. The addition about "leftists, Marxists and Jews" is your own fantasy and you added that for very transparent reasons.

    The quoted text had its problems too but when we can't agree on some more basic things, which is fair enough and has become clear abundantly after plenty of conversations, there's little use to get into the details.
    Ok, thank you, i understand your point. So you will continue to say that Albanians arrived in Epir in the late middle age but you will not elaborate this your theory.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LABERIA View Post
    I asked in another thread to another greek member to show me a single battle of the greeks against the Ottomans during the invasion of Greece, roughly XIV-XV century. He didn't show me a single battle.
    There were multiple events of battles against the Turks. That person did not know, it is simple.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diomedes View Post
    There were multiple events of battles against the Turks. That person did not know, it is simple.
    It's a good thing that you know. I am very curious.

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    @ Laberia

    I like your signature,

    what are you? Greek Epirotis, or Celtic Illyrian?

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Maybe I have a bit of my Roman ancestors in me. I suggest taking all the hot under the collar, border, ethnicity obsessed Balkanites and setting aside a good chunk of land for them. Then let them fight it out. It would be like a modern version of Gladiator games, only no one gets out, not even the victors. Maybe that way the rest of the people of the Balkans can try to get on with their lives.

    For the Asperger types, it's obviously not a serious suggestion.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Diomedes View Post
    Upon reading the news regarding the referendum of independence in Catalonia--which, as it seems, will not be acknowledged by Spain,--I was wondering if there will be other parts of Europe that might ask for something similar. Our society nowadays in not that oppressive as it used to be and, frankly speaking, not all boarders are drawn as they should have been. Ergo, I was wondering whether European boarders will be the same in the future.
    In the first instance for Europe (EU) are more important external borders. This does mean that should be paranoid and completely prohibit foreign migration but process must be under control and border troops are necessary.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Maybe I have a bit of my Roman ancestors in me. I suggest taking all the hot under the collar, border, ethnicity obsessed Balkanites and setting aside a good chunk of land for them. Then let them fight it out. It would be like a modern version of Gladiator games, only no one gets out, not even the victors. Maybe that way the rest of the people of the Balkans can try to get on with their lives.

    For the Asperger types, it's obviously not a serious suggestion.

    hahahaha

    if you do not bring new religion and build Scythopolis,
    you can exterminate Greeks and especially the Makedonians

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    @ Laberia

    I like your signature,

    what are you? Greek Epirotis, or Celtic Illyrian?
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FwsMG59EALg

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    Quote Originally Posted by LABERIA View Post
    What is the meaning of this you tube video, and what relevance does it have to the topic?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    What is the meaning of this you tube video, and what relevance does it have to the topic?

    nothing,
    he has no answer for his signature so he had to post something,

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    nothing,
    he has no answer for his signature so he had to post something,
    I don't answer to your question because is of topic and also is a provocative question. Your intention is to start again a new flame war. Unfortunately only our moderator with the spear don't understand this. But when you cross the red line, then i am forced to intervene.
    Usually i avoid to engage an discussion with you, because first there is nothing that can be discussed with you and second, since your posts are totally inaccurate i prefer to avoid calling an old man like you a liar. Consider this as a sign of respect for your age and not for your contribution in this forum.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LABERIA View Post
    I don't answer to your question because is of topic and also is a provocative question. Your intention is to start again a new flame war. Unfortunately only our moderator with the spear don't understand this. But when you cross the red line, then i am forced to intervene.
    Usually i avoid to engage an discussion with you, because first there is nothing that can be discussed with you and second, since your posts are totally inaccurate i prefer to avoid calling an old man like you a liar. Consider this as a sign of respect for your age and not for your contribution in this forum.
    I really do wonder,
    Who your ancestors are?
    Greek Apeirotan? or Celto-Illyrians?

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    Yetos, cut it out. Stop needling him.

    Laberia, you're a fine one to talk about going off-topic. Either explain how that video is relevant, or I'll have to assume that it was some attempt at ********.

    One more peep out of either of you and you'll both get infractions.

    Take it to the Balkan Disagreements thread so you don't bother other people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by angela View Post
    maybe i have a bit of my roman ancestors in me. I suggest taking all the hot under the collar, border, ethnicity obsessed balkanites and setting aside a good chunk of land for them. Then let them fight it out. It would be like a modern version of gladiator games, only no one gets out, not even the victors. Maybe that way the rest of the people of the balkans can try to get on with their lives.

    For the asperger types, it's obviously not a serious suggestion.
    balkan thunderdome

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    Catalania
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    Donbass

    After Brexit
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    Scotland


    Is there any movement in Kosovo about unification with Albania?

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Boreas View Post
    Catalania
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    After Brexit
    Unification of Ireland
    Scotland


    Is there any movement in Kosovo about unification with Albania?
    Yes but it is slow. Balkan politics are very complicated.
    But imo, right now it seems like they are slowly preparing Fyrom for partitioning between Albania and bulgaria.
    In the beginning there may be some cold air or some verbal wars between the Fyrom bulgars and bulgaria bulgars, but at that time the Fyrom rulling class will be so weakened, that the bulgarian government and media will be able to make a takeover on the eastern part of fyrom relatively peacefully.(the bulgars gotta convince the "macedonians" that they are actually still bulgars, while the serbs will protest as usual)
    The Fyrom albanians on the other hand will be glad to join Albania.

    I believe that only after this happens, the plan of uniting kosova , Albania and western Fyrom will happen

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    Although its not certain that eastern Fyrom will reunite with bulgaria. Maybe it will just be a small country by itself, Although i doubt it


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    Quote Originally Posted by Balkanite View Post
    Yes but it is slow. Balkan politics are very complicated.
    But imo, right now it seems like they are slowly preparing Fyrom for partitioning between Albania and bulgaria.
    In the beginning there may be some cold air or some verbal wars between the Fyrom bulgars and bulgaria bulgars, but at that time the Fyrom rulling class will be so weakened, that the bulgarian government and media will be able to make a takeover on the eastern part of fyrom relatively peacefully.(the bulgars gotta convince the "macedonians" that they are actually still bulgars, while the serbs will protest as usual)
    The Fyrom albanians on the other hand will be glad to join Albania.

    I believe that only after this happens, the plan of uniting kosova , Albania and western Fyrom will happen
    That is Amber Fox 2 plan
    split of Fyrom and Kossovo
    Tettovo unites with Kossovo and Petz ,Mitrovitsa with Serbia
    creating homogenous countries and not minorities

    there is also the case of Bosnia split as also Montenegro if expand Amber Fox 2
    that full plan (amber Fox 2) is making Big Albania 2 parts, Big Serbia, Big Croatia, small Bosnia, and eliminates MonteNegro and Fyrom.
    but monteNegro is already at NATO, which makes things more complicated.


    there is also the chance to stop Amber Fox 2,
    Fyrom's new president suggested the name of the country as Bardaria
    and negotiations are in NATO.
    if the Fyrom constitution change the name in their constitution charta,
    then enters NATO and Amber Fox 2 plan is abandoned,
    Skopjie becomes then the biggest NATO base, in Europe.
    new airport.
    and the road Avlona (Vlore) Skopjie becomes a highway for troops

    it is up to Zaev's and the Albanian's of tettovo if that country will remain or not.

    Remember if Fyrom Splits then Greece can raise the lost properties subject from the times of Makedonian struggle till WW2.
    that subject is making Greeks (citizenship) automatically more than 300 000 citizen of Fyrom (125 000 are greeks) (the kids of Communistic paidomazoma gain the Greek citizenship)
    and restores properties from N Greece Epirus Thrace and Monesterion Stomnitsa Perlepe Eygeleia etc
    a mutual difference that Both Greece and Skopjie keep in silence, from WW2
    As also Serbia can raise demands on Kumanovo from WW1 and balkan wars times,
    Fyrom has the old Yugoslavian borders, but this borders have a History before creation of Yugoslavia

    previous was








    I hope what ever big powers decide.
    be with no 'smart' waepons, and not a single death by bullet.
    we had enough in Balkans from foreigns

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