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    DNA of Globular Amphora

    Is there a thread about GAC DNA? I dont find any, maybe I missed something? - something interesting on Polishgenes (no Yamnaya)

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    Is there a thread about GAC DNA? I dont find any, maybe I missed something? - something interesting on Polishgenes (no Yamnaya)
    From one of the latest papers we learned that they were about 60/40 EEF/WHG and all tested I2a. IIRC.
    It was just before Bronze Age and Corded Ware expansion. No direct connection with modern Poles.


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    Here under the abstract from Polishgenes

    Tuesday, May 16, 2017


    Globular Amphora people starkly different from Yamnaya people

    The figure below is from the recent Mathieson et al. 2017 preprint; slightly edited to highlight the results of nine Globular Amphora Culture (GAC) samples from two burial sites in what are now Poland and Ukraine.


    Despite living in East Central Europe at about the same time as the nearby Yamnaya people of the Pontic-Caspian Steppe, these GAC individuals show practically zero Yamnaya-related or steppe ancestry (note the almost total absence of the orange "Yamnaya" component in the Globular_Amphora results in the ADMIXTURE bar graph). Instead, they're very similar to Chalcolithic and Middle Neolithic Central and Western Europeans, with whom they overlap in the Principal Component Analysis (PCA).

    During the tail end of the GAC period, East Central Europe was suddenly dominated by a new archaeological complex called the Corded Ware Culture (CWC). Although most CWC individuals sampled to date show minor GAC-related ancestry, they're overwhelmingly Yamnaya-like, which suggests that by and large the CWC population has its origins on the Pontic-Caspian Steppe. In fact, some of the earliest CWC examples from the Baltic States, such as Latvia_LN in the ADMIXTURE bar graph, are basically identical to Yamnaya people.

    It was suggested not long ago that the presence of Yamnaya-related ancestry in modern-day Europeans could be mostly explained by the so called Isolation-by-Distance phenomenon (see here). But as I said at the time, this was a major faux pas, and thanks to these GAC samples I now have direct evidence from ancient DNA to back me up. So forget the idea of anything resembling a gentle cline in Yamnaya-like ancestry east to west across Europe before proto-CWC and Yamnaya exploded from the steppes.

    By the way, in that critique I said that it's not possible to recapitulate ancient populations with ADMIXTURE components. I stand by that statement, although as we can see in Mathieson et al. 2017, it is possible to get close at times with enough of the right ancient samples; close enough to make some general observations anyway.

    Interestingly, on the PCA plot, the European Bronze Age cluster is more or less half way between GAC and Latvia_LN. This is also where modern-day Poles and Ukrainians cluster on such plots when they're not significantly skewed by projection bias or shrinkage. Thus, I do wonder if the Slavs of East Central Europe are essentially a 50/50 mixture of early CWC and late GAC? I'll try and test this when the Mathieson et al. 2017 dataset goes online.

    Reference...

    Mathieson et al., The Genomic History Of Southeastern Europe, bioRxiv, Posted May 9, 2017, doi: https://doi.org/10.1101/135616

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    Thank you for your expansions on Globular Amphora taking our clues from a time in place adds elements of components that introduced me to new perspectives.
    Sometimes it's easy to be overwhelmed. Stating out each morning trying to decide where my notions might fit no matter how much more research need to be done.
    All that being said i appreciate having so many people willing to share and help discern what's important.

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    in the paper: [...
    We also report the first data from the Late Neolithic Globular Amphora Complex. Globular Amphora individuals from two sites in Poland and Ukraine form a tight genetic cluster, showing genetic homogeneity over a large distance (Figure 1B,D). We findthat this population had more hunter-gatherer ancestry than Middle Neolithic groups from Central Europe (we estimate 25%[CI:27%] WHG ancestry, similar to Chalcolithic Iberia). This finding further extends our knowledge of the variable landscape of hunter-gatherer and farmer admixture proportions in Europe
    Supplementary Data Table 3 -In east-central Europe, the Globular Amphora Complex immediately precedes the Corded Ware Complex that marks the first appearance of steppe ancestry in the region.

    The Globular Amphora abutted populations with steppe-influenced material cultures for hundreds of years and yet the

    individuals in our study have no evidence of steppe ancestry, suggesting that this persistent culture frontier corresponded to a genetic barrier. ...]

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    In fact I passed over it, it was in the study about South-East Europe transition by Mathieson (Scottish clan) and Cy - the EEF-like seems a bit stronger, or the WHG/(+little EHG) weaker - Y-I? (I foud only 1 in Ancestral Journeys Jean Manco); all the way I should not be too surprised if Y-I2a was heavy, perhaps with a good taste of I2a2? These Y-I2a lineages seem having taken the strong side upon previously (and yet) autosomally EEF Neolithic pops of Central-South-East Europe at the LN times; Y-I2a2 was dominant in the MN-LN ALPc culture of East Hungary Carpathian Bassin spite EEF (anatolian) auDNA and mt-DNA still heavier - it could be that descendants of these pops took part later in the multi-origins Unetice complex? (melting pot at first?, with diverse religions and diverse types of houses at some stage) - and Y-2a2 was dominant in some parts of Ukraina among partly neolithicized pops, but then with HG's mt-DNA; I 've to put ma hand upon an abstract (metrics) about Körös-Cris and ALP and "proto-europoids" introgressions in Carpathian Bassin before the official so called Steppic intrusions there...
    But it would be good having more detailed downstream SNP's of all these Y-I2a. Because Funnel/TRB of West had also - I think so - a good taste of Y-I2a(1 & 2) with them...
    the surprise is still that BB's would have no "contact" with GAC, and CWC very very few with GAC -
    Good night, oidhche mhath, nos da i chi

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    What i find strange is that Central German Corded Ware is physically most similar to Central German GAC than Kurgan peoples (I. Schwidetzky 70s) . Maybe steppe people altered the genotype of the Central European populations but not the phenotype (??)


    schwidetzky-infl-table4.jpg

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    We cannot rely on ONE aspect of skulls to decide who is closer or farther than another. And what we can see here is that there was a variation for this unique trait within GAC sites pops with a kind of slope between Germany and Romania - ATW the GAC in the paper are from E-POland/Ukraina and they cannot be taken as the "bible" for other GAC sites: surely a common element diffused the culture but they mingled with elements of other pops, at least at a small scale.
    and the phenotype is depending on A PART of the total genotype; that said I believe phenotype can say us more upon shirt evolution than do auDNA admixture which is very "generalistic" when taken as a whole, and not segment by segment.

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    GAC finally majority of Y-I2a2 (in other threads) and about 30% WHG.

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    Do we have phenotype informations (pigmentation) for this people ?

    Did the eef/whg genes in Corded Ware and later cultures of Central Europe came from GAC or from another source?

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    NO based answer to date. Sorry

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    Ok, thanks

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    According to https://genetiker.wordpress.com/

    5/6 were blond-blue eyed

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    And 75% EEF like. The hunter-gatherers around there seem, what, dark haired, dark eyed, some medium skin color, some fair?

    On the other hand, didn't he supposedly find "white" people in Peru?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    And 75% EEF like. The hunter-gatherers around there seem, what, dark haired, dark eyed, some medium skin color, some fair?

    On the other hand, didn't he supposedly find "white" people in Peru?
    White Gods

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    Quote Originally Posted by holderlin View Post
    White Gods
    Well then, nothing more needs to be said. :)

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    Seriously though I'm blown away by all his Neolithic Britain samples that show blonde, Blue Eyes, and light skin. Why is no one freaking out about this? Isn't this against everything we've learned about pigmentation in Europe over the past 50K years?

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    Quote Originally Posted by holderlin View Post
    Seriously though I'm blown away by all his Neolithic Britain samples that show blonde, Blue Eyes, and light skin. Why is no one freaking out about this? Isn't this against everything we've learned about pigmentation in Europe over the past 50K years?
    Speaking only for myself, I don't follow his blog, so I'm just repeating what people are saying here. I didn't know he was predicting that for the British Neolithic as well as Globular Amphora.

    I'll just say that the predictions I've heard about by him for more ancient samples like the hunter-gatherers are sometimes, if not often, at variance with the predictions of the academic papers, with him saying they would have been fairer skinned.

    So, I don't know how seriously to take his predictions.

    Does he claim the early Neolithic farmers in Spain, for example, were fair? That's certainly not what the academics say. If they weren't, how could the British Neolithic people be blonde, blue-eyed, and fair skinned? Much of the ancestry for these British Neolithic farmers would have arrived, would it not, by way of the coastlines around from Spain? Or at least perhaps Cardial people who first went up the Rhone?

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    Quote Originally Posted by holderlin View Post
    Seriously though I'm blown away by all his Neolithic Britain samples that show blonde, Blue Eyes, and light skin. Why is no one freaking out about this? Isn't this against everything we've learned about pigmentation in Europe over the past 50K years?
    Neolithic farmers having light skin was the norm, I thought that was well-established, if anything these Brits were a little darker than average. Blue eye variant was already at substantial frequency among the Anatolian farmers, these farmers are Middle Neolithic with an extra 30% or so of WHG admixture. Out of 38 British Neolithic samples with hair colour predictions 4 are blond, most are black. Maybe that is more than usual but it doesn't seem like something to flip out about.

    PS maybe a difference in what is meant by light skin. I don't think this means light on a European scale but on a global scale.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Megalophias View Post
    Neolithic farmers having light skin was the norm, I thought that was well-established, if anything these Brits were a little darker than average. Blue eye variant was already at substantial frequency among the Anatolian farmers, these farmers are Middle Neolithic with an extra 30% or so of WHG admixture. Out of 38 British Neolithic samples with hair colour predictions 4 are blond, most are black. Maybe that is more than usual but it doesn't seem like something to flip out about.

    PS maybe a difference in what is meant by light skin. I don't think this means light on a European scale but on a global scale.

    Well Anatolian farmers looked about like modern day Middle Easterners, so they were depigmented to be sure but nothing like modern North Euros, and for awhile it looked like you didn't see anything resembling modern North Europeans until the LMBA in Europe and across the steppe, aside from maybe one or two EHG samples. The Baltic hunter gatherers certainly showed that people with mostly WHG can be light skinned and light haired, so I guess it's not earth shattering, but I still would not expect to see light skinned, light haired, light eyed, people in Neolithic Britain.

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    That certainly makes more sense. It sounded like Genetiker was predicting that the British Neolithic farmers were all blonde, blue-eyed, modern European fair skinned people.

    As I pointed out in two threads just yesterday, we already had relatively fair skinned, blue-eyed farmers in early Neolithic Hungary as per Gamba et al. There were some similar farmers in Anatolia. One of the farmers in Neolithic Hungary even was proposed to have blonde hair.

    So, British Neolithic farmers might indeed have had people among them who were dark haired, blue eyed, and "relatively" fair skinned. Some might even have had blonde hair, although as I said, I don't know what forensic algorithm he is using, and which snps are included, nor the probability.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    That certainly makes more sense. It sounded like Genetiker was predicting that the British Neolithic farmers were all blonde, blue-eyed, modern European fair skinned people.

    As I pointed out in two threads just yesterday, we already had relatively fair skinned, blue-eyed farmers in early Neolithic Hungary as per Gamba et al. There were some similar farmers in Anatolia. One of the farmers in Neolithic Hungary even was proposed to have blonde hair.

    So, British Neolithic farmers might indeed have had people among them who were dark haired, blue eyed, and "relatively" fair skinned. Some might even have had blonde hair, although as I said, I don't know what forensic algorithm he is using, and which snps are included, nor the probability.
    what about the central Anatolian samples - Boncuklu and Tepecik Ciftlik - anything known about their pigmentation?

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    what about the central Anatolian samples - Boncuklu and Tepecik Ciftlik - anything known about their pigmentation?
    Sorry, Bicicleur, I'll see if I can get to this tonight. I want to post the actual data, not go by memory. I just haven't had time today. Maybe in the meantime if anyone has it at their fingertips they'll post it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    what about the central Anatolian samples - Boncuklu and Tepecik Ciftlik - anything known about their pigmentation?
    In Kilinc et al: "The Demographic Development of the First Farmers in Anatolia", which presented the Tepecek and Boncuklu samples, I couldn’t find any phenotypic data.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5069350/

    I looked in genetiker for Tepecik and Boncuklu, and couldn't find anything but snp calls*. If you're so interested in pigmentation you'd think he'd look at all the Anatolian Neolithic samples as well.

    Hofmanova did give some pigmentation information:

    "Sequences in and around genes underlying the phenotypes hypothesized to have undergone positive selection in Europeans indicate that the Neolithic Aegeans were unlikely to have been lactase persistent but carried derived SLC24A5 rs1426654 and SLC45A2 rs16891982 alleles associated with reduced skin pigmentation. Because our Aegean samples predate the period when the rs4988235 T-allele associated with lactase persistence in Eurasia reached an appreciable frequency in Europe, around 4 kya (1214), and because this allele remains at relatively low frequencies (<0.15) in modern Greek, Turkish, and Sardinian populations (15), this observation is unsurprising. However, despite their relatively low latitude, four of the Aegean individuals are homozygous for the derived rs1426654 T-allele in the SLC24A5 gene, and four carry at least one copy of the derived rs16891982 G-allele in the SLC45A2 gene. This suggests that these reduced-pigmentation–associated alleles were at appreciable frequency in Neolithic Aegeans and that skin depigmentation was not solely a high-latitude phenomenon (SI Appendix, SI12. Functional Markers). The derived rs12913832 G-allele in the HERC2 domain of the OCA2 gene was heterozygous in one individual (Klei10), but all other Aegeans for whom the allelic state at this locus could be determined were homozygous for the ancestral allele, indicating a lack of iris depigmentation in these individuals.
    http://www.pnas.org/content/113/25/6886

    From the Supplement:
    Rev5, Klei10, Bar8, and Bar 31 were all observed to carry homozygous derived alleles at SLC24A5 rs1426654 (A111T)

    "Derived alleles of the SLC45A2 rs16891982 L374F mutation, also associated with skin depigmentation and identified as under selection in modern and ancient Europeans [157, 159], were observed in the Klei10, Pal7, Bar31, and Bar8 individuals"

    These people were fair skinned if modern European pigmentation is any guide.

    "The Klei10 individual appears to have been heterozygous for the derived allele at HERC2 rs12913832, a mutation associated with iris depigmentation and having evidence for differential selection at different points in prehistory [130, 159].Qualified support for the presence of a derived allele in the Klei10 individual comes from the observation of a derived allele at rs1129038 which is almost completely linked with the causal rs12913832 SNP in modern populations [162]. However, conclusive haplotype determinations for the 13-SNP OCA2-HERC2 profile found in almost all modern blue-eyed individuals could not be made for the ancient Aegean individuals [163] (see Table S31)"
    http://www.pnas.org/content/pnas/sup...51113.sapp.pdf

    Ed.*Genetiker did snp calls only for y Dna for these samples. Makes no sense not to look at pigmentation for Near Eastern farmer samples if you're going to do it for European ones.
    Last edited by Angela; 27-02-18 at 14:11.

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    Country: Italy



    What about intermediate "green" eyes? Are they included in the brown or blue category in these predictions?

    [Edit]...Nevermind, i've found it, apparently were common among BB

    utilizzando Tapatalk
    Last edited by Cato; 26-02-18 at 20:49.

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