Iron Age and Early Medieval Polish DNA

[MOESAN]

I can agree that some IE ethnonyms were strangely popular and occured far away from each other.

Let's see:

1. Cimmerians from south Ukraine (Krym maybe after them), Cimbrians from Jutland, Sicambri (mythological Frankish ancestors), Cymru (Wales). Maybe biblical Gomer. Gimri in modern Georgian means hero.
I have read (forgot where) about theory that Cimmerians were pushed byt invading Scythians to Central Europe and carried Iron technology into what was later Hallstat Culture. They imposed themsleves as elite over those people. Some of them were Celts, some Germans later. And nobody knows who exactly were Cimmerians (proto-Thracians, Indo-Aryans?)

2. Venedians in Poland, in what is now Latvia, in Armorica, in what is now Switzerland (Vindelics), Asia Minor (Enetoi), in NE-Italy. Vendsysell in Jutland and Vandals also are included???

3. Some say Scots and Scythians are also similar.

I recall Cymru/ "Kymbri" came from celtic *com-brog- ("same-land" or "sharing same-country", nothing else, cf 'britt- 'brog', gaël- 'mruc', germ- 'mark', perhaps lat- 'marg-'), apparently well distinct of Cimmerians and maybe from Cimbri - concerning Sicambri I don't know the syllabing of the word and maybe others don't know more than I do...
Taranis could help?
That 's not to deny some I-E tribes names could have survived later divisions.

 

[Lukas]

I agree. Rather poor quality samples. They roughly look Northern European but it is hard to say anything much precisely.

Generally those results are of course from smaller number of snps. And in such case minor regional components are usually lacking. But those which stayed show obvious trends in specific genomes. If somebody was mostly NW-Euro he has elevated to enormous level North Sea frequency for example, but I'm sure with bigger number of snps he would be still NW-Euro but more averaged.

I will made experiment with my genome I will cut every Chr to level similar to to those genomes and we will see if I will have for example 40% Central-East Euro and 35% East-Euro in K36. Or 70% Baltic in K13...

 

[LeBrok]

Generally those results are of course from smaller number of snps. And in such case minor regional components are usually lacking. But those which stayed show obvious trends in specific genomes. If somebody was mostly NW-Euro he has elevated to enormous level North Sea frequency for example, but I'm sure with bigger number of snps he would be still NW-Euro but more averaged.

With bigger number of snps we can pinpoint it regional location or ethnic group. With smaller number it is much harder and could be inconclusive.

I will made experiment with my genome I will cut every Chr to level similar to to those genomes and we will see if I will have for example 40% Central-East Euro and 35% East-Euro in K36. Or 70% Baltic in K13...

I like your experiment. From my understanding, if you cut to the similar level as these samples are, you will see the admixtures ratios screwed up.

 

[Rethel]

I recall Cymru/ "Kymbri" came from celtic *com-brog- ("same-land" or "sharing same-country", nothing else, cf 'britt- 'brog', gaël- 'mruc', germ- 'mark', perhaps lat- 'marg-'), apparently well distinct of Cimmerians and maybe from Cimbri - concerning Sicambri I don't know the syllabing of the word and maybe others don't know more than I do...
Taranis could help?
That 's not to deny some I-E tribes names could have survived later divisions.

But modern etymology can be, and mostly
is misguiding, if the word has ancient origin.

 

[Milan.M]

.............................

 

[Tomenable]

Sample Niemcza_13 from Early Medieval Poland belongs to I2a-Din:

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthr...nd-coming-soon&p=255823&viewfull=1#post255823

So far none of Iron Age Polish samples belongs to I2a-Din or R1a.

This is now one of the oldest I2a-Din samples in ancient DNA, right?:

Niemcza_13 (900-1000 AD), I2a1b2-L621+, mtDNA J1c3e1

Location of Niemcza (to the west of Krosno):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Niemcza

 

[Tomenable]

Niemcza_18, 900-1000 AD, Y-DNA: J2a1a-L26+ (exact subclade under L26 uncertain).

This SNP - L26 - links Early Medieval Pole Niemcza_18 with Bronze Age Hungarian BR2:

https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y17946*/

Both Niemcza_18 and BR2 were J2a1, M410+ and L26+.

================

And autosomal similarity of BR2 to modern populations:

 

[LeBrok]

Niemcza_18, 900-1000 AD, Y-DNA: J2a1a-L26+ (exact subclade under L26 uncertain).

This SNP - L26 - links Early Medieval Pole Niemcza_18 with Bronze Age Hungarian BR2:

https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y17946*/

Both Niemcza_18 and BR2 were J2a1, M410+ and L26+.

================

And autosomal similarity of BR2 to modern populations:

In agreement with my modeled Polish genome. First 3 columns are the sources for the 4th column, which is the product. Mine/Polish genome is in fifth to check validity of the model. Right upper corner shows ratios. Polish genome can be composed from 70% BR2 and 30%EHG.

Rise150	0		BR2, J-M67	0.7		I0124	0.3
F999948	Poland, late Unetice, 1750BC	F999933	Hungarian Bronze/Badden	M218547	EHG		My modeled
Poland, slask 3.75 kya	3.5kya		Hungary, Ludas-Varjú-dűlő,	3.3kya		Samara HG	7.6 kya		Composition		Mine
Run time	8.44		Run time	15.13		Run time	5.57		Run time			Run time	20.5
S-Indian	0		S-Indian	0		S-Indian	0		S-Indian	-		S-Indian	0.62
Baloch	14.65		Baloch	3.15		Baloch	14.33		Baloch	6.50		Baloch	7.47
Caucasian	2.73		Caucasian	14.73		Caucasian	0		Caucasian	10.31		Caucasian	10.05
NE-Euro	53.54		NE-Euro	46.18		NE-Euro	75.62		NE-Euro	55.01		NE-Euro	57.28
SE-Asian	0		SE-Asian	0.2		SE-Asian	0		SE-Asian	0.14		SE-Asian	0.54
Siberian	0		Siberian	0		Siberian	0		Siberian	-		Siberian	1.22
NE-Asian	0		NE-Asian	0		NE-Asian	0		NE-Asian	-		NE-Asian	0.35
Papuan	0.48		Papuan	0.18		Papuan	0		Papuan	0.13		Papuan	-
American	0.22		American	0		American	9.62		American	2.89		American	-
Beringian	0.49		Beringian	0		Beringian	0.15		Beringian	0.05		Beringian	0.07
Mediterranean	27.12		Mediterranean	31.73		Mediterranean	0		Mediterranean	22.21		Mediterranean	21.53
SW-Asian	0		SW-Asian	3.33		SW-Asian	0		SW-Asian	2.33		SW-Asian	0.86
San	0		San	0		San	0		San	-		San	-
E-African	0.34		E-African	0		E-African	0		E-African	-		E-African	-
Pygmy	0		Pygmy	0		Pygmy	0		Pygmy	-		Pygmy	-
W-African	0.42		W-African	0.48		W-African	0.2		W-African	0.40		W-African	-

In reality Polish genome will come from more complicated sources than I showed but the main point is that modern Polish peole have bigger roots in Hungarian Bronze than with Unetice Culture (the Bronze Culture which existed in Polish territory).

 

[Tomenable]

Modeling Poles as a mix of Late Bronze Age BR2 and Mesolithic EHG is not a good idea IMHO. Because EHG is much older than BR2, and EHG no longer existed in the Bronze Age. We should use only samples from Late Bronze Age and Iron Age - because people who lived at that time were "direct ancestors" of Early Medieval people.

Unetice Culture (the Bronze Culture which existed in Polish territory)

Unetice culture covered only one part of Polish territory - in South-Western Poland.

BTW have you tried this?: http://gen3553.pagesperso-orange.fr/ADN/ancient.htm

 

[LeBrok]

Modeling Poles as a mix of Late Bronze Age BR2 and Mesolithic EHG is not a good idea IMHO. Because EHG is much older than BR2, and EHG no longer existed in the Bronze Age. We should use only samples from Late Bronze Age and Iron Age - because people who lived at that time were "direct ancestors" of Early Medieval people.



Unetice culture covered only one part of Polish territory - in South-Western Poland.

BTW have you tried this?: http://gen3553.pagesperso-orange.fr/ADN/ancient.htm

I know, I just didn't have time to refine it. I'll try to fix it tonight. However, EHG is dominant in Yamnaya anyway, so technically lots of it will be used in the model just under different name. I'm sure RB2 will still dominate anyway, too many models and research are in agreement.

 

[Lukas]

Delete above maps with Niemcza (because there are two same towns). Officialy this is legit

link to PDF

 

[MOESAN]

But modern etymology can be, and mostly
is misguiding, if the word has ancient origin.

I'm not a two weeks old rabbit, please - 'Combrog' is based on solid ground and modern 'Cymru' (breton 'Kembre') is for the land, the other form, for the people, 'Cymro' is selfspeaking - by the way a Gaulish celtic tribe was named 'Combrog(es)' "compatriotes"-
-
serious etymology is a science, and based upon chains of attested old forms so "modern etymology" is not so modern! - reconstructions are based upon statistical evolutions and corpus of forms tending to converge as we go back in time with older ones (so sometimes unsure, spite guessed by scientists), and guesses and bets by forumers or sellers of pseudo-scientific bestsellers based upon only some hazardous ressemblances is another thing and I agree I red some beautiful pieces of this last sort in fora (here and elsewhere) -

 

[MOESAN]

I can agree that some IE ethnonyms were strangely popular and occured far away from each other.

Let's see:

1. Cimmerians from south Ukraine (Krym maybe after them), Cimbrians from Jutland, Sicambri (mythological Frankish ancestors), Cymru (Wales). Maybe biblical Gomer. Gimri in modern Georgian means hero.
I have read (forgot where) about theory that Cimmerians were pushed byt invading Scythians to Central Europe and carried Iron technology into what was later Hallstat Culture. They imposed themsleves as elite over those people. Some of them were Celts, some Germans later. And nobody knows who exactly were Cimmerians (proto-Thracians, Indo-Aryans?)

2. Venedians in Poland, in what is now Latvia, in Armorica, in what is now Switzerland (Vindelics), Asia Minor (Enetoi), in NE-Italy. Vendsysell in Jutland and Vandals also are included???

3. Some say Scots and Scythians are also similar.

Proofs of links between these old names??? (possible for some ones, surely not for all of them): we are approaching magic wild etymology and it's not without importance for History - I already answered for Cymru - Sicambri have more chances to be broken in 'sic-ambr' than 'si-cambr-' I think - and for the possible cognate words, a PIE ancient name can have produced more than one tribe name in diverse places without recent links ; caution! -

 

[LeBrok]

Modeling Poles as a mix of Late Bronze Age BR2 and Mesolithic EHG is not a good idea IMHO. Because EHG is much older than BR2, and EHG no longer existed in the Bronze Age. We should use only samples from Late Bronze Age and Iron Age - because people who lived at that time were "direct ancestors" of Early Medieval people.



Unetice culture covered only one part of Polish territory - in South-Western Poland.

BTW have you tried this?: http://gen3553.pagesperso-orange.fr/ADN/ancient.htm

Again, the Hungary Bronze Age 1,500 BC - Hungary (Vatya) - Rise479 is first with 76% (BR2 - 66%), second 3,000 BC - Sweden - Ajvide58 at 71% which is WHG/SHG with a bit of EEF, and third at 68% is Iron Age Czech 0 BC - Czech R. - Rise569. The two Unetice samples are at 54.

 

[LeBrok]

Modeling Poles as a mix of Late Bronze Age BR2 and Mesolithic EHG is not a good idea IMHO. Because EHG is much older than BR2, and EHG no longer existed in the Bronze Age. We should use only samples from Late Bronze Age and Iron Age - because people who lived at that time were "direct ancestors" of Early Medieval people.



Unetice culture covered only one part of Polish territory - in South-Western Poland.

BTW have you tried this?: http://gen3553.pagesperso-orange.fr/ADN/ancient.htm

Here I modeled modern Polish on 3 roughly contemporary to each other sources. First one is 20 % WHG, which still was lurking in not too far Latvia and maybe Belarus, 60% Hungarian Bronze, and 20% Yamnaya.

	0.2			0.6			0.2
M325047	KO1, I-L68		F999933	Hungarian Bronze/Badden	M828815	Rise552		Modeled			Modern
Hungarian, Tiszaszőlős-Domaháza	7.7 kya		Hungary, Ludas-Varjú-dűlő,	3.3kya		Ulan iV, Yamnaya	4.5 kya		Polish			Polish
Run time	9.43		Run time	15.13		Run time	9.08		Run time			Run time	20.5
S-Indian	0		S-Indian	0		S-Indian	0		S-Indian	-		S-Indian	0.62
Baloch	0		Baloch	3.15		Baloch	33.24		Baloch	8.54		Baloch	7.47
Caucasian	0		Caucasian	14.73		Caucasian	6.58		Caucasian	10.15		Caucasian	10.05
NE-Euro	80.37		NE-Euro	46.18		NE-Euro	56.02		NE-Euro	54.99		NE-Euro	57.28
SE-Asian	0		SE-Asian	0.2		SE-Asian	0		SE-Asian	0.12		SE-Asian	0.54
Siberian	0		Siberian	0		Siberian	0		Siberian	-		Siberian	1.22
NE-Asian	0		NE-Asian	0		NE-Asian	0		NE-Asian	-		NE-Asian	0.35
Papuan	0.53		Papuan	0.18		Papuan	0		Papuan	0.21		Papuan	-
American	0		American	0		American	2.46		American	0.49		American	-
Beringian	0		Beringian	0		Beringian	0.75		Beringian	0.15		Beringian	0.07
Mediterranean	18.59		Mediterranean	31.73		Mediterranean	0		Mediterranean	22.76		Mediterranean	21.53
SW-Asian	0		SW-Asian	3.33		SW-Asian	0		SW-Asian	2.00		SW-Asian	0.86
San	0		San	0		San	0		San	-		San	-
E-African	0		E-African	0		E-African	0		E-African	-		E-African	-
Pygmy	0		Pygmy	0		Pygmy	0		Pygmy	-		Pygmy	-
W-African	0.5		W-African	0.48		W-African	0.95		W-African	0.58		W-African	-

I should mention that BA Hungarian is modeled by me as 40% EEF, 50% WHG and 10% Armenia Bronze. Armenia Bronze could be substituted by 20% Anatolia Chalcolithic/BA. There is a room for a bit of Yamnaya in Hungarian BA but probably not much.

 

[Lukas]

https://www.academia.edu/33791135/2...ncing_of_enriched_<br />ancient_DNA_libraries

Here, we present the analysis of Y-chromosome obtained from seventeen, not yet reported, ancient male samples excavated from different burial sites in Poland: Kowalewko (Roman Iron Age), Maslomecz (Roman Iron Age), Legowo (early Middle Ages) and Niemcza (early Middle Ages).

We successfully assigned haplogroups to sixteen individuals. Eight belonged to haplogroup I1 (I-M253). Three of them belonged to the sub-branch I1a3a1a1a (I-L1237) and one to I1a2a (I-Z59). I1 is the most common haplogroup in present day Scandinavia, and it is found in all places invaded by ancient Germanic tribes and Vikings. Four samples belonged to haplogroup G2a (G-P15) which is spread uniformly throughout Europe. Other individuals were assigned to I2a2 (I-M436), R1a (R-M420), R1bl (R-L278), E1b1 (E-P2). The next portion of samples is under investigation. With this study we hope to shed new light into the genetic structure of populations inhabiting lands of contemporary Poland during the Roman Iron Age and the Middle Ages.

So out of 16:

8 I1 (I-M253)
- 3 I1a3a1a1a (I-L1237)
- 1 I1a2a (I-Z59)
- 4 just I-M253

4 G2a (G-P15)

1 I2a2 (I-m436)
1 R1a M420
1 R1b1 (R-L278)
1 E1b1 (E-P2)

How we can divide them between those few places? Any opinions? If one R1a m420 was from Wielbark or rather early Polish medieval?

 

[Tomenable]

Mlukas was faster.

So 50% (!) of I1-M253...

Compare with 12 samples from Görzig (Saxony-Anhalt) dated to 300-400s AD:

I1 --------------------------------------------------------- 7 (~58%)
I (likely I2 but can be some Russian clade of I1) ---- 1 (~8%)
R1b ------------------------------------------------------- 1 (~8%)
R1 (most likely R1a, or some eastern R1b) ----------- 1 (~8%)
R1 (likely R1b but can be R1a-Z284 or L664) -------- 2 (~17%)

Source (see Table 3. on page 6 out of 7):

https://www.researchgate.net/public...er_romischen_Kaiser-_und_Volkerwanderungszeit

Location of Görzig:

Check my older thread about it, link:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...d-not-much-R1b?p=478699&viewfull=1#post478699

 

[Tomenable]

Three of them belonged to the sub-branch I1a3a1a1a (I-L1237)

Subclade I-L1237 on YFull: https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-L1237/

The basal lineage of this subclade, I-L1237*, can be found here:

So Jordanes was right - the Goths had originated from Sweden?

 

[Tomenable]

But Wojewoda from ABF is "ancestral" to these Goths (he is I1 Z63+ S2078+ L1237-).

Maybe L1237 originated in Poland, south of the Baltic Sea, from Wojewoda's branch.

Wojewoda is an ethnic Polish user.

 

[I1a3_Young]

I thought all of the I1a3 (Z63) branches were relatively rare in Sweden/Norway/Finland. Z59 is also a more continental branch.