Iron Age and Early Medieval Polish DNA

Milan.M said:
So it will appear that this Goths,Suebi,Vandals were I1a3 only, where is the typical R1b Germanic clade among them,or the original Germanic speakers in Poland were I1a3 and G2a by majority?
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Remember these Polish samples had a Z58>Z59 and also one R1b and one R1a.

In these areas of Europe it appears the R1b and R1a expansion was mostly at the expense of G2a and I2. The I1 flourished alongside the R's (and were just about the only hg to do so) but were rare before DF29 genesis.
 
I1a3_Young said:
Remember these Polish samples had a Z58>Z59 and also one R1b and one R1a.

In these areas of Europe it appears the R1b and R1a expansion was mostly at the expense of G2a and I2. The I1 flourished alongside the R's (and were just about the only hg to do so) but were rare before DF29 genesis.
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I am speaking about Iron age and presumably Goths,Vandals,not later dates or present day.Thanks on your information's anyway.They were overwhelmed in that area later on or emigrated but are still to be found.
 
Milan.M said:
where is the typical R1b Germanic clade among them
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Wielbark sample from Drozdowo is said to be R1b-U106 but it has not been published yet.
 
Tomenable said:
This I1a3 from Iron Age Poland (Wielbark) does not confirm Scandinavian origin of Goths:

KO_55, Poland, Wielbark culture, Kowalewko (100-300 AD), I1a3a1a1-Y6626

See below:
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Interesting, so either Goths were from Pomerania no Scandinavia, or this I1a3 was from local East Germanics who, I guess, expanded as far as Bug River? Of course one sample is enough to draw exact conclusions about everything. Goths easily could have picked this one up on their way through East Germanic lands. Many East Germanics could have easily joined Goths, who spoke almost same language and probably believed in same gods.
 
Tomenable said:
East Germanic tribes from Poland migrated all the way to Benelux and France in the 400s:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crossing_of_the_Rhine



Later their descendants migrated from Benelux and France to Britain, as Anglo-Saxons and Normans. They became part of the so called Anglo-Saxons (in fact those were very mixed Germanic-speaking groups - and the most numerous part were Frisians, not Saxons) and migrated to Britain during the 400s-600s. Alternatively, they could become part of the Normans and move to Britain after 1066 AD.

Only finding I1a3 in older aDNA from outside of Poland can prove that I1a3 is not East Germanic.

So far all of the oldest samples of I1a3 are from Iron Age Poland.

And it is not impossble that I1a3 migrated to Britain from Poland, because it could be carried for example by the Vandals, who came from Poland, and who invaded Northern France after 31.12.406 AD. It is estimated that 150,000 people crossed the Rhine and moved into Northern France on that day.
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That is very interesting. So it could be that the Z63 movement into England with the Anglo-Saxons was not within the Anglo-Saxons but accompanying Eastern tribes that took a roundabout route.

The Normans had an estimated 1% genetic impact on the UK and the Saxons had 20-30% so it's more likely to have come in with the latter.

Thanks for posting the individual details. This batch of Polish samples is very interesting indeed!
 
Tomenable said:
This I1a3 from Iron Age Poland (Wielbark) does not confirm Scandinavian origin of Goths:

KO_55, Poland, Wielbark culture, Kowalewko (100-300 AD), I1a3a1a1-Y6626

See below:

goth1.png


From Eupedia:

"(...) It corresponds to the Z63+ subclade. I1a3-Z63+ subclade is virtually absent from Nordic countries. It is most common in Central Germany, the Benelux, England, Lowland Scotland, as well as Poland. It has also been found in Russia, Ukraine, the Balkans, Italy, Spain and Portugal. Y2245.2+ makes up a big part of the Z63 in Russia, Ukraine, Poland, the Balkans, Italy and Iberia. It could have been spread by the Goths. BY351+ is a subclade found in Portugal, Spain, Italy (including Sardinia). It was probably spread by the Visigoths and Ostrogoths. (...)"
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Finland also has many clades above and below DF29, not to mention the linquistic and archeological proof.
Claiming a non Nordic origin of Germanic I1 is a fantasy.
 
Non-DF29 I1 can be found in many places. There was a large spread of pre-DF29 I1 as evidenced by the LBKT BAB5 sample in Hungary and the Stora Forvar 11 in Gotland at approximately the same time. That is a large geographic area and those samples are very different ethnically. BAB5 was 90% EEF and SF11 was 8% EEF.

Non-DF29 known locations:

Russia
Finland
Netherlands
England
Poland
Germany-Sachsen
France
Denmark
 
I1a3_Young said:
Non-DF29 I1 can be found in many places. There was a large spread of pre-DF29 I1 as evidenced by the LBKT BAB5 sample in Hungary and the Stora Forvar 11 in Gotland at approximately the same time. That is a large geographic area and those samples are very different ethnically. BAB5 was 90% EEF and SF11 was 8% EEF.

Non-DF29 known locations:

Russia
Finland
Netherlands
England
Poland
Germany-Sachsen
France
Denmark
Click to expand...

Same continues below DF29


https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-DF29/
 
LeBrok said:
Wielbark Culture was always suspected to belong to Goths, on their way to Black Sea.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wielbark_culture

However it was said by archeologists that Wielbark contained two separate ethnicities living side by side.  It makes sense as Goths didn't have time to mix with local population on their fast pace to the Black Sea.  IIRC, they marched from Baltic to Black Sea in about 150 years.  I wonder who was the second ethnicity of Wielbark Culture.  Germanic, Baltic or Slavic?
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The cremations would most likely have N1c included in them, Siberian tribes?
 
Ukko said:
Finland also has many clades above and below DF29, not to mention the linquistic and archeological proof.
Claiming a non Nordic origin of Germanic I1 is a fantasy.
Click to expand...
If I1-Z63 formation is going back to 4600 ybp (2650 BC),what makes it Germanic in that particular period,you want to say that in those times there was Germanics?
Please elaborate where was this clade and how it become Germanic then.
And if this clade is absent from Scandinavia,what makes it Nordic in origin?
Plus the oldest finding of I1 haplogroup is Hungary,along side farmers.
 
Milan.M said:
If I1-Z63 formation is going back to 4600 ybp (2650 BC),what makes it Germanic in that particular period,you want to say that in those times there was Germanics?
Please elaborate where was this clade and how it become Germanic then.
And if this clade is absent from Scandinavia,what makes it Nordic in origin?
Plus the oldest finding of I1 haplogroup is Hungary,along side farmers.
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Good point. At it's conception it wasn't a germanic haplogroup. Secondly, I1 or certain subclades of it could have gotten to Scandinavia with farmers from Central Europe or Balkans. It is still a possibility.
 
ME_7, Markowice (1000-1200 AD), I1a2a2a5-Y5384

He is one of these peasant skeletons shown here:

http://strzelno3.bloog.pl/id,342547...w-Markowicach,index.html?smoybbtticaid=6197b0

Leżące na najżyźniejszych glebach naszej gminy Markowice, zdają się swymi korzeniami sięgać bardzo odległych wieków. Bliskość Niemojewka i związane z tą miejscowością znaleziska, upewniają nas, że u zarania państwowości polskiej Markowice stanowić mogły wykształconą już osadę. Dotychczasowe znalezisko zdaje się utwierdzić moje domysły zawarte w tejże książce, że początki Markowic, jako wykształconej wsi i to dużej wsi sięgają początków chrześcijaństwa na tym terenie. Jednakże dopiero końcowe wyniki badań pozwolą na pełniejszy wgląd w pozostałości po pradziejowym osadnictwie na tym obszarze.
Click to expand...

DSC_0543_VH_big.jpg


An Early Medieval I2a-Din peasant (?) was also found:

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthr...nd-coming-soon&p=257687&viewfull=1#post257687

NA_13, Niemcza, (900-1000 AD), I2a1b2-L621

=======================

Markowice are Group NE (rural settlements), as for Niemcza I'm not sure if they are NE or E:

Piast_realm.png


I've heard rumours / leaks about 2 samples from Group E (Elites) who are R1a.

Including one R1a-M458>L260 and one undetermined branch of R1a.

Meanwhile, Markowice I1-M253 is Non-Elites for sure, and Niemcza probably too.

The Piasts are confirmed R1b.

So far we have R1b Royalty > R1a Elites > other haplogroups in rural settlements.

One R1a is from a high-ranking aristocrat associated with the Komes of Wrocław:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Komes

This R1a is not from the Komes himself, but from one of his high-ranking nobiles.

As for the Komes himself, I don't know what was his Y-DNA but he was also tested.
 
Tomenable said:
ME_7, Markowice (1000-1200 AD), I1a2a2a5-Y5384
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This one is weird. It has West Germanic haplogroup, according to Maciamo's chart. In Harappa run it shows some Siberian admixture and higher Baloch and Med. It is closer to what Unetice and Northern Corded Ware represented than Slavic. Perhaps it was a leftover from Germanic tribes from this area, or beginning of medieval germanic migration to Poland?


The Piasts are confirmed R1b.

So far we have R1b Royalty > R1a Elites > other haplogroups in rural settlements.
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I wouldn't have it any other way. ;)
Seriously, I never gave a squat myself, but it is going to hurt the anti R1b crowd, lol.
 
Great stuff Tomenable. This yet another example of the fluidity of Europeans. If there is a thousand year gap, we could be missing big changes such as this.

Did the Gothic tribes leave due to weather/famine/curiosity or were they pushed by the R1 people? We know they moved all around Europe so it could have created a vacuum for the later medieval inhabitants to fill once conditions improved (if that is why the Gothic tribes left).

So the Z58 was a peasant with a more western brand of I1. Maybe he was a Gothic remnant or maybe he moved into the area after they left?
 
I1a3_Young said:
Great stuff Tomenable. This yet another example of the fluidity of Europeans. If there is a thousand year gap, we could be missing big changes such as this.

Did the Gothic tribes leave due to weather/famine/curiosity or were they pushed by the R1 people? We know they moved all around Europe so it could have created a vacuum for the later medieval inhabitants to fill once conditions improved (if that is why the Gothic tribes left).

So the Z58 was a peasant with a more western brand of I1. Maybe he was a Gothic remnant or maybe he moved into the area after they left?
Click to expand...
Goths were in the way of Central Asiatic/Hunic migration to Europe. They could stop few I guess, but eventually they were too many to stop. Roman Empire was fairly weak to stop big invasions, so it couldn't stop Goths, being pushed West.
Mid first millennium climate sucked big time. It was cold and crops kept failing. This helped East Germanic and Slavic tribes to make their minds to migrate South and West. After couple of centuries of Hunic invasions, failed corps, plagues (Justinian), famin, Roman Empire was too depopulated, poor and weak to keep any status quo in Europe.
It got even worse in next couple of centuries when Europe tumbled into Dark Ages.

PS.
And it all happened 100 years after Christianity became official religion of Empire. This early form of Christianity could have changed Roman's culture and mindset, which maybe wasn't in agreement with running an empire, helping its demise. So we can blame Christianity too. ;)
 
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Ukko said:
The cremations would most likely have N1c included in them, Siberian tribes?
Click to expand...

What evidence is there that they would be N1c? Also I highly doubt they were Siberian. As far as I'm aware Siberians have never reached anywhere near Poland.
 
About Vandals who stayed in Poland (probably the same applied to Goths):

From Procopius, History of the Wars, III, xxii, 13-16:

"(...) Now as for those Vandals who remained in their native land, neither remembrance nor any name of them has been preserved to my time. (...) they were either overpowered by the neighbouring barbarians or they were mingled with them [Slavs] not at all unwillingly and their name gave way to that of their conquerors. Indeed, when the Vandals were conquered at that time by Belisarius, no thought occurred to them to go from there to their ancestral homes. For they were not able to convey themselves suddenly from Libya to Europe, especially as they had no ships at hand, but paid the penalty [2] there for all the wrongs they had done the Romans and especially the Zacynthians. (...)"

[2] In Arcana, 18, 5 ff., Procopius estimates the number of the Vandals in Africa, at the time of Belisarius, at 80,000 males, and intimates that practically all perished.
 
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