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Thread: the western origin of Michelsberg farmers

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.

    the western origin of Michelsberg farmers

    http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...l.pone.0179742

    I didn't read it, just took a peek.
    Looks like based on mtDNA of a few individuals, IMO not enough to make some firm conclusions

    It seems to confirm though that the origin of Michelsberg lies in the Atlantic megalithic.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Basically what the authors argue is that the Michelsberg farmers in East France/West Germany have more hunter gatherer mtDNA(U5) and affinity to Middle Neolithic mtDNA from the Paris Basin and are therefore not native to Central Europe but from somewhere further west.

    There's no basis for their claim. I think they argued something so that their paper would be published. The only thing we can say about this Michelsberg mtDNA from eastern France is it is typical of Neolithic Europeans.

    The N1a result makes me wonder if they were partially descended from eastern groups like LBK. Middle Neolithic/Chalcolithic Iberia and Britain didn't have any N1a. They also had lots more H3 than LBK and Neolithic Hungary.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    There's no basis for their claim.
    some quotes:

    Several hypotheses concerning the origin of the Michelsberg culture have been offered, but the one prevailing today (and first
    introduced in 1959 [19]) considers an origin in the Paris Basin [20±22]. This "occidental hypothesis" was reinforced by the demonstration of an important rupture in pottery traditions between the previous Alsatian cultures and the Michelsberg, combined with the continuity of specific ceramic features with southwestern traditions (in the Paris Basin).
    Interestingly, ceramic changes observed during the Michelsberg culture development have
    been accompanied by the apparition of particular funerary practices involving inhumations
    within circular pits. The mortuary practice of burying people in circular pits appeared simultaneously
    in the Chasséen culture in the south of France and in the epi-Lengyel MuÈnchshoÈfen
    culture of Lower Bavaria
    Indeed, all descriptive analyses showed small genetic distances between the MICH and Middle Neolithic groups from France (Paris Basin, "MNF" group).
    Subsequently or simultaneously, such a [extra] H-G legacy appeared in the Paris Basin during the Middle Neolithic (5,000±4,000 cal. BC, MNF = 14.6%). .... whereas the MICH group was the only group in Central Europe to present a significant H-G maternal lineage frequency (14.8%).
    the CV group contained a strong proportion of haplogroups H (H, H1 and H3) and X, which were more common
    in southern European and Paris Basin farmers
    you might read a paper before to spew up over it...
    "What I've seen so far after my entire career chasing Indoeuropeans is that our solutions look tissue thin and our problems still look monumental" J.P.Mallory

    "The ultimate homeland of the group [PIE] that also spread Anatolian languages is less clear." D. Reich

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    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    you might read a paper before to spew up over it...
    Ha Ha, maybe I was a little too negative. But it is true that mtDNA can usually tell very little about ethnic-regional origins. I think authors of study's like this make big claims so their papers can get published. Yeah there are little indications in the mtDNA from Michelsberg culture that it originated further south but nothing really convincing.

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    Michelberg results...

    H=7 33%
    H1, H3, H(xH1, H3)=5

    K=4 19%

    U5=3 15%(two contrimed U5b)

    J1=2 10%

    T2=2 10%
    T2c1=1

    X=1 5%

    W=1 5%

    N1a=1 5%

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    I found HVR1 matches for one of the K results. All of these matches aren't legitimate matches. The same mutation can pop up in multiple lineages. Some of the matches might be legit.

    Michelberg culture K-16291t matches
    Neolithic Scotland; K1a
    Neolithic Spain; K1a
    Poland=2
    Saudi Arabia=1
    India=1
    Denmark=2(K1c1)

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    Interesting study, thanks..apparently peoples from France settled eastward during this period, a Western origin (Chassey) had been suggested even for the contemporaneous Lagozza cult.

    map

    Kapellenberg_Abb_2_800x600.jpg

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    27 individuals mt-DNA is very few, when so diverse -

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    just a detail: the Michelsberg people concerning phenotypes were considered as drifted towards ancient Mesolithic pops compared to LBK people - not to say they were "pure" mesolithic-like... I think the Meso elements sort they had was rather the SOM kind of types, associated by someones to Teviecoid types spite I doubt a little: they were very more "brutal" looking than Teviecoids of Brittany; (geogr. distribution: Eastern Parisian Bassin, Champagne, Lorraine, Eiifel region of Germany, Southern Wallonia I think) -

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    Michelberg results...

    H=7 33%
    H1, H3, H(xH1, H3)=5


    are you sure there is mtdna h3 go to table S.5
    there are some h and h1 no h3 ...

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    I'm almost sure Y-DNA would have been more HG oriented. This culture was megalithic and at the end of the megalithic cultures as at the end of other Neolithic cultures in Europe, it seems HG males (among them lot of Y-I2a2 but not only) were gaining strength... The presence among them of wellknown neolithic mt-DNA doesn't exclude a Parisian Bassin towards southern Germany move, all the other data converge towards this. the Parisian Bassin at those times were already a melting pot of LBKlike "danubian", Chassean (South Rhône) and HG people.

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