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Thread: Genetic differences in Belgium and the Netherlands

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    Genetic differences in Belgium and the Netherlands

    Mlukas made this interesting PCA:

    https://s17.postimg.org/kx4c1tf9r/pca1.jpg

    Quote Originally Posted by mlukas
    Although few Flemish are in the same area as Wallon, most of them are closer South Dutch.

    Also except one individual there is no overlap between Flemish and Central Dutch.

    Also overlap between Central and North Dutch is not very big.


    Average Eurogenes K36 results for each of 5 groups from the PCA:

    In case of some admixtures, North-South clines are clearly visible:

    https://s23.postimg.org/6ea19i1qz/averages.jpg

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    Interesting.

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    3 members found this post helpful.
    There aren't many samples, but from those listed all Wallons fit within the Flemish cluster. It's odd as my research showed a bit more genetic diversity in Wallonia, so it should be the other way round. Surely just because there are more Flemish samples. Anyway it confirms what I wrote in my genetic history of the Benelux, namely that:

    - There is very little genetic difference between Flemings and Walloons
    - Interpersonal genetic differences within Belgium are bigger than regional differences
    - Belgians cluster very closely with South Dutch
    - The north-south genetic gradient is much stronger in the Netherlands than in Belgium
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    the Moerdijk - the delta of the rivers Rhine and Meuse has been - and still is - an important barrier
    the Dutch living north of it often refer to the Dutch living south as 'faux Belges'

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    From: https://www.cbs.nl/en-gb/



    And:

    Whole-genome sequence variation, population structure and demographic history of the Dutch population
    Laurent C. Francioli e.a. Nature Genetics 46, 818–825 (2014) doi:10.1038/ng.3021
    Received 10 October 2013 Accepted 06 June 2014 Published online 29 June 2014



    This genetic division in the Netherlands divides old North Sea Germanic (Ingvaeonic) from old Wesser-Rhine Germanic (Istvaeonic) areas. North Dutch are of Anglo-Saxon + Frisian + Norse descent while South Dutch are of Frankish + Celtic descent:







    Traditional division for Southern Dutch and Northern Dutch:

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...thernDutch.png


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    Tomenable that's a clear summary! Thanks! ( I recognize some input 😉

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    it would interesting to do one on the Irish and British

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    Genetic differences in Belgium and the Netherlands

    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    There aren't many samples, but from those listed all Wallons fit within the Flemish cluster. It's odd as my research showed a bit more genetic diversity in Wallonia, so it should be the other way round. Surely just because there are more Flemish samples. Anyway it confirms what I wrote in my genetic history of the Benelux, namely that:

    - There is very little genetic difference between Flemings and Walloons
    - Interpersonal genetic differences within Belgium are bigger than regional differences
    - Belgians cluster very closely with South Dutch
    - The north-south genetic gradient is much stronger in the Netherlands than in Belgium
    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    the Moerdijk - the delta of the rivers Rhine and Meuse has been - and still is - an important barrier
    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    the Dutch living north of it often refer to the Dutch living south as 'faux Belges'
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    This genetic division in the Netherlands divides old North Sea Germanic (Ingvaeonic) from old Wesser-Rhine Germanic (Istvaeonic) areas. North Dutch are of Anglo-Saxon + Frisian + Norse descent while South Dutch are of Frankish + Celtic descent:






    In this respect I found an excellent summary:
    https://haplogroupi2b1ismine.wordpre.../#FranksSaxons

    When I exaggerate the difference between the spread of the Saxons and the Franks it's the difference between a Saxon settler movement, aimed to gain new ground for families and their farmsteads, and Frankish ruler expansion, to gain more territory.

    Does this also have had a different impact on genetics? In the new Saxon territories of the big migration Germanic genetics prevailed with probably some influence from pre or proto Germanic people in the Northern and Eastern parts of the Netherlands and Celtic/Britonic/Gaullish people in England and around the Channel.

    In the Frankish territories Southern Netherlands/Belgium/Northern France is my pre assumption that the Celtic genetic heritage staid pretty strong. Of course the Franks left their genetics footmark, but not as big as in the Saxon areas.

    We see in the K36 maps of Lukasz reflected where South Dutch, Belgium, Northern France, West Germany, German Swiss forms one cluster!

    And on micro level. When I compare my results (North Dutch, Friso-Saxon) with that of my wife (Frankish:halve around the major Frankish stronghold Tournai/Doornik, Lille, St Omer, halve Central Dutch Rhine Delta area), than she gets in the FTDNA auDNA admixture 93% Central West European and I get 0%.

    I think that also give some question marks about the (also by Maciamo) assumed North Sea origin of the Franks.....But correct me if I am wrong....
    Last edited by Northener; 31-07-17 at 20:13.

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    The strength of the Franks is that they were able to combine 2 worlds.
    They did not destroy the heritage of Roman farming production and economy and they kept recruiting soldiers and warriors from Germanic background.
    They didn't just replace the Gauls and they kept a strong army in place.

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    If it is the Celtic influence that makes southern Dutch and Belgians different than those of the North, why are they darker? Weren't Celtic people supposed to be extremely light skinned?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rico33 View Post
    If it is the Celtic influence that makes southern Dutch and Belgians different than those of the North, why are they darker? Weren't Celtic people supposed to be extremely light skinned?
    The Celts you're talking about are those from the British Isles, the ones that carry the gene for red hair and superpale skin. Britain was called 'Albion'(from Albinus).

    Those are genetically a different people from the people of the continent. In the continent there's more sunny days, as well as a land bridge with both Italy and Hispania.

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