Genetic differences in Belgium and the Netherlands

Tomenable

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Mlukas made this interesting PCA:

https://s17.postimg.org/kx4c1tf9r/pca1.jpg

mlukas said:
Although few Flemish are in the same area as Wallon, most of them are closer South Dutch.

Also except one individual there is no overlap between Flemish and Central Dutch.

Also overlap between Central and North Dutch is not very big.

pca1.jpg


Average Eurogenes K36 results for each of 5 groups from the PCA:

In case of some admixtures, North-South clines are clearly visible:

https://s23.postimg.org/6ea19i1qz/averages.jpg

averages.jpg
 
There aren't many samples, but from those listed all Wallons fit within the Flemish cluster. It's odd as my research showed a bit more genetic diversity in Wallonia, so it should be the other way round. Surely just because there are more Flemish samples. Anyway it confirms what I wrote in my genetic history of the Benelux, namely that:

- There is very little genetic difference between Flemings and Walloons
- Interpersonal genetic differences within Belgium are bigger than regional differences
- Belgians cluster very closely with South Dutch
- The north-south genetic gradient is much stronger in the Netherlands than in Belgium
 
the Moerdijk - the delta of the rivers Rhine and Meuse has been - and still is - an important barrier
the Dutch living north of it often refer to the Dutch living south as 'faux Belges'
 
From: https://www.cbs.nl/en-gb/

ewvjV6a.png


And:

Whole-genome sequence variation, population structure and demographic history of the Dutch population
Laurent C. Francioli e.a. Nature Genetics 46, 818–825 (2014) doi:10.1038/ng.3021
Received 10 October 2013 Accepted 06 June 2014 Published online 29 June 2014

ngqaoy2m3jibn.jpg


This genetic division in the Netherlands divides old North Sea Germanic (Ingvaeonic) from old Wesser-Rhine Germanic (Istvaeonic) areas. North Dutch are of Anglo-Saxon + Frisian + Norse descent while South Dutch are of Frankish + Celtic descent:

j2sm9Sw.png


jenh2hstc3v3c.png


Bez-nazwy-4.jpg


Traditional division for Southern Dutch and Northern Dutch:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/cf/NorthernDutch.png

NorthernDutch.png
 
Tomenable that's a clear summary! Thanks! ( I recognize some input 😉
 
There aren't many samples, but from those listed all Wallons fit within the Flemish cluster. It's odd as my research showed a bit more genetic diversity in Wallonia, so it should be the other way round. Surely just because there are more Flemish samples. Anyway it confirms what I wrote in my genetic history of the Benelux, namely that:

- There is very little genetic difference between Flemings and Walloons
- Interpersonal genetic differences within Belgium are bigger than regional differences
- Belgians cluster very closely with South Dutch
- The north-south genetic gradient is much stronger in the Netherlands than in Belgium

the Moerdijk - the delta of the rivers Rhine and Meuse has been - and still is - an important barrier
the Dutch living north of it often refer to the Dutch living south as 'faux Belges'

This genetic division in the Netherlands divides old North Sea Germanic (Ingvaeonic) from old Wesser-Rhine Germanic (Istvaeonic) areas. North Dutch are of Anglo-Saxon + Frisian + Norse descent while South Dutch are of Frankish + Celtic descent:

j2sm9Sw.png


jenh2hstc3v3c.png


Bez-nazwy-4.jpg

In this respect I found an excellent summary:
https://haplogroupi2b1ismine.wordpr...nic-peoples-origins-and-history/#FranksSaxons

When I exaggerate the difference between the spread of the Saxons and the Franks it's the difference between a Saxon settler movement, aimed to gain new ground for families and their farmsteads, and Frankish ruler expansion, to gain more territory.

Does this also have had a different impact on genetics? In the new Saxon territories of the big migration Germanic genetics prevailed with probably some influence from pre or proto Germanic people in the Northern and Eastern parts of the Netherlands and Celtic/Britonic/Gaullish people in England and around the Channel.

In the Frankish territories Southern Netherlands/Belgium/Northern France is my pre assumption that the Celtic genetic heritage staid pretty strong. Of course the Franks left their genetics footmark, but not as big as in the Saxon areas.

We see in the K36 maps of Lukasz reflected where South Dutch, Belgium, Northern France, West Germany, German Swiss forms one cluster!

And on micro level. When I compare my results (North Dutch, Friso-Saxon) with that of my wife (Frankish:halve around the major Frankish stronghold Tournai/Doornik, Lille, St Omer, halve Central Dutch Rhine Delta area), than she gets in the FTDNA auDNA admixture 93% Central West European and I get 0%.

I think that also give some question marks about the (also by Maciamo) assumed North Sea origin of the Franks.....But correct me if I am wrong....
 
Last edited:
The strength of the Franks is that they were able to combine 2 worlds.
They did not destroy the heritage of Roman farming production and economy and they kept recruiting soldiers and warriors from Germanic background.
They didn't just replace the Gauls and they kept a strong army in place.
 
If it is the Celtic influence that makes southern Dutch and Belgians different than those of the North, why are they darker? Weren't Celtic people supposed to be extremely light skinned?
 
If it is the Celtic influence that makes southern Dutch and Belgians different than those of the North, why are they darker? Weren't Celtic people supposed to be extremely light skinned?

The Celts you're talking about are those from the British Isles, the ones that carry the gene for red hair and superpale skin. Britain was called 'Albion'(from Albinus).

Those are genetically a different people from the people of the continent. In the continent there's more sunny days, as well as a land bridge with both Italy and Hispania.
 

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