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Thread: E-V13 subclades in Greece

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    Do you have any opinions on those of us who are E-V13-BY14151/14160 who are not Greek but South Italian on the paternal side? Is it likely Greek migrations to the south of the country during the Magna Graecia days?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nik View Post
    Haha hello cousin!

    It makes sense what you're saying about the Vasojevic and obviously all those tribes in Montenegro are not related to each other as the legend says, but they all do come from Herzegovina and what's interesting is that in the case of Hoti I think they did find Vlachs when they came to their current location.

    I hope more and more Greeks test for deeper clades together with Albanians and other Balkanites as we're currently seeing many interesting results.

    The guy from Shop could be a Triballian, Moesian, Dardanian, etc. as that population gave birth to many Albanians as well but as always we'll have to wait and see if other people share the same clade.
    Hoti found Albanian-speakers there, when they moved to where they are. Their own legends confirm this.

    Some Montenegro clans may be from Herzegovina but probably not the majority, at least not from the clan-forming period 400-700 years ago. Many of these clans seem to relate to others in Montenegro or in Northern Albania.

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    Quote Originally Posted by digital_noise View Post
    Do you have any opinions on those of us who are E-V13-BY14151/14160 who are not Greek but South Italian on the paternal side? Is it likely Greek migrations to the south of the country during the Magna Graecia days?
    I think connection with Greek colonies is a possibility but I will be very cautious when it comes to E-V13-BY14151: because I still think V13 likely started its expansion within Cetina culture and I believe that can be seen best through E-Y37092.

    I've seen one South Italian PH1246 looking haplotype with possible matches on Greek islands. His kit is N23509, he has dys607=13 + dys389=14-31 (modal for PH1246):
    13 23 13 10 16-16 11 14 11 31 15 14 20 11 17 10 ?? N23509 Gizzeria Catanzaro Padovese
    460=9, 607=13
    13 23 13 10 16-17 11 14 11 31 ?? 14 ?? ?? ?? 10 ?? Sterea Ellada, Greece [Greek]
    13 23 13 10 16-17 ?? 14 11 31 ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? Chios, Greece [Greek]
    13 23 13 10 16-17 ?? 14 11 31 ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? Chios, Greece [Greek]
    13 23 13 10 16-17 ?? 14 11 31 ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? Chios, Greece [Greek]
    13 23 13 10 16-17 ?? 14 11 32 ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? Chios, Greece [Greek]
    13 23 13 10 ??-?? 11 14 11 31 15 14 20 11 16 10 22 Euboea, Greece [Greek]
    460=10, 388=12, A10=13,
    13 23 13 10 16-17 11 14 11 31 16 14 20 11 16 10 23 Albania [Albanian]

    As you can see lot of Greek samples might cluster with him (due to back mutation at dys390 (23) + additionally dys439=11 (which is also modal for Vasojevici)), in addition to one Albanian, but in this instance because the island of Chios should be firmly Greek and this Albanian being isolated it could be another ancient Greek cluster. So I hope N23509 does some SNP and deeper tests..

    However for the Italian YF16004 because he seems to have no matches in the Balkans he would fit as a Cetina people immigrant so imo likely presence there for 4000+ years. So Italian PH1246 are very useful for Cetina hypothesis about the origin of V13, because it did have outposts in Italy as well (Cetina pottery found in Altamura, Rodi Garganico, Coppa Nevigata..) like it did in Greece. CTS1273 on the other hand did not spread directly with that culture, it seems to have wandered off.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    I think connection with Greek colonies is a possibility but I will be very cautious when it comes to E-V13-BY14151: because I still think V13 likely started its expansion within Cetina culture and I believe that can be seen best through E-Y37092.
    I've seen one South Italian PH1246 looking haplotype with possible matches on Greek islands. His kit is N23509, he has dys607=13 + dys389=14-31 (modal for PH1246):
    13 23 13 10 16-16 11 14 11 31 15 14 20 11 17 10 ?? N23509 Gizzeria Catanzaro Padovese
    460=9, 607=13
    13 23 13 10 16-17 11 14 11 31 ?? 14 ?? ?? ?? 10 ?? Sterea Ellada, Greece [Greek]
    13 23 13 10 16-17 ?? 14 11 31 ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? Chios, Greece [Greek]
    13 23 13 10 16-17 ?? 14 11 31 ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? Chios, Greece [Greek]
    13 23 13 10 16-17 ?? 14 11 31 ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? Chios, Greece [Greek]
    13 23 13 10 16-17 ?? 14 11 32 ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? Chios, Greece [Greek]
    13 23 13 10 ??-?? 11 14 11 31 15 14 20 11 16 10 22 Euboea, Greece [Greek]
    460=10, 388=12, A10=13,
    13 23 13 10 16-17 11 14 11 31 16 14 20 11 16 10 23 Albania [Albanian]
    As you can see lot of Greek samples might cluster with him (due to back mutation at dys390 (23) + additionally dys439=11 (which is also modal for Vasojevici)), in addition to one Albanian, but in this instance because the island of Chios should be firmly Greek and this Albanian being isolated it could be another ancient Greek cluster. So I hope N23509 does some SNP and deeper tests..
    However for the Italian YF16004 because he seems to have no matches in the Balkans he would fit as a Cetina people immigrant so imo likely presence there for 4000+ years. So Italian PH1246 are very useful for Cetina hypothesis about the origin of V13, because it did have outposts in Italy as well (Cetina pottery found in Altamura, Rodi Garganico, Coppa Nevigata..) like it did in Greece. CTS1273 on the other hand did not spread directly with that culture, it seems to have wandered off.
    I'm starting to think that perhaps J-L283 might be a better fit for the Cetina Culture, or might've been the more common Y-haplogroup, especially since now it has also appeared in LBA Sardinia. (PS. Since J-L283 wasn't found there from an earlier period, this would be consistent with the idea that it didn't expand from Sardinia ;) but this is besides the point).

    Anyways, looking forward to the upcoming large Italian aDNA study, and see what we get there.
    Y-DNA: J-L283
    Maternal Y-DNA: E-V13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    I think connection with Greek colonies is a possibility but I will be very cautious when it comes to E-V13-BY14151: because I still think V13 likely started its expansion within Cetina culture and I believe that can be seen best through E-Y37092.

    I've seen one South Italian PH1246 looking haplotype with possible matches on Greek islands. His kit is N23509, he has dys607=13 + dys389=14-31 (modal for PH1246):
    13 23 13 10 16-16 11 14 11 31 15 14 20 11 17 10 ?? N23509 Gizzeria Catanzaro Padovese
    460=9, 607=13
    13 23 13 10 16-17 11 14 11 31 ?? 14 ?? ?? ?? 10 ?? Sterea Ellada, Greece [Greek]
    13 23 13 10 16-17 ?? 14 11 31 ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? Chios, Greece [Greek]
    13 23 13 10 16-17 ?? 14 11 31 ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? Chios, Greece [Greek]
    13 23 13 10 16-17 ?? 14 11 31 ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? Chios, Greece [Greek]
    13 23 13 10 16-17 ?? 14 11 32 ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? Chios, Greece [Greek]
    13 23 13 10 ??-?? 11 14 11 31 15 14 20 11 16 10 22 Euboea, Greece [Greek]
    460=10, 388=12, A10=13,
    13 23 13 10 16-17 11 14 11 31 16 14 20 11 16 10 23 Albania [Albanian]

    As you can see lot of Greek samples might cluster with him (due to back mutation at dys390 (23) + additionally dys439=11 (which is also modal for Vasojevici)), in addition to one Albanian, but in this instance because the island of Chios should be firmly Greek and this Albanian being isolated it could be another ancient Greek cluster. So I hope N23509 does some SNP and deeper tests..

    However for the Italian YF16004 because he seems to have no matches in the Balkans he would fit as a Cetina people immigrant so imo likely presence there for 4000+ years. So Italian PH1246 are very useful for Cetina hypothesis about the origin of V13, because it did have outposts in Italy as well (Cetina pottery found in Altamura, Rodi Garganico, Coppa Nevigata..) like it did in Greece. CTS1273 on the other hand did not spread directly with that culture, it seems to have wandered off.
    YF16004 is my kit :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    I'm starting to think that perhaps J-L283 might be a better fit for the Cetina Culture, or might've been the more common Y-haplogroup, especially since now it has also appeared in LBA Sardinia. (PS. Since J-L283 wasn't found there from an earlier period, this would be consistent with the idea that it didn't expand from Sardinia ;) but this is besides the point).

    Anyways, looking forward to the upcoming large Italian aDNA study, and see what we get there.
    Well J-L283 might have been involved too with Cetina as Rafc suggested. But there are some problems for that: 1) Dalmatian L283 is not from Cetina but Dinara/Posusje culture, according to views of archaeologists these two had different origins, although they coexisted for a period of time, they mostly had limited trade contacts. And actually both had connections with Italy.

    Going by new Sardinian samples, L283 is Nuragic there, it's one of new hg's though it's somewhat mysterious why these basal clades are so common there. I think indeed Sardinian L283 might be related to Sherden or Sea Peoples as Johane Derite suggested earlier. I guess some L283's might be found in that study too.

    E-V13 is a great fit for Cetina because of the fact that it developed in precisely the area where E-L618 was found in Early Neolithic and it had certainly this element. Also Cardial Neolithic does have connection with L618, other continental neolithic cultures could have hardly had E-V13 (also based on archaeological evidence) except possibly Trypillia where some M78 was found. The other reason is that in the Bubanj Hum III and Armenochori cultures which are partially derived from Cetina (though not being Cetina), ware similar to Minyan were found, and Minyan ware is associated with early speakers of Greek. E-V13 is common and diverse in Greece, L283 much less so, and a number of those are Vlach/Arvanite, likely more so than E-V13.

    Problem for Cetina is the fact that E-CTS1273 seems to have appeared in Eastern Balkans in BA and it wasn't there before (because there is hardly any PH1246 there and likely won't be either based on STR's), so this branch could have hardly expanded with classic Cetina culture but part might have with Bubanj Hum III etc.. There are some other reasons why at least basal V13 is likely involved with Cetina..



    Quote Originally Posted by digital_noise View Post
    YF16004 is my kit :)
    I remember you, I think you should look for these haplotypes with dys385b=21. People like Swiss 63695, English 71088 or even Russian 228894 (he has 20), or Albanian IN43874 who has 21 also. None of them are close to you but you might share an SNP with some of those based on that STR.

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    Aspurg, you have done good job on isolating clades found among Greeks. I absolutely believe that even tho i didnt double check them. But i have to say that i am a bit critic over some of thesis you have put out there.
    I know that you are fair guy and you want to find the truth going by the scientific facts. Just i am afraid that you did some non intentional technical mistakes when trying to interpret origin of some specific E-v13 clades in this case. And that is not as easy to do as it seems in beginning, we can try to label them like that but there will be a way too high chance of mistake when looking realistically at possibilities. Looking at living samples and trying to conclude their origin in that way is very risky.
    My critics go mostly first to methodology used in order to try to find time of arrival, in this case going strictly by TMRCA (you concluded LBA-EIA, i say its more likely EBA I II III, just as all other IE, so not a big difference just lower TMRCA makes you think its later arrival which is not and does not have to be a case ). Second is fact that ancient Greek clades do not represent modern Greek clades its very hard to know the origin going by TMRCA and living samples. Also i dont understand why you only included Arvanite and Vlach possibility. Arvanite can only confuse you because its only one group of Albanians while you cant label all Albanians in Greece as Arvanites. They can be Cameria Albanians, Northern or Western ones. Also we can conclude that Illyrians but Albanians also migrated to Greek since ancient times, so to label all groups Arvanite i think its wrong. What is more fair is to label Arvanite only these that are aprox 1000 years or less GD from Albanians as Arvanites or these that declare as Arvanites but to avoid all these possibilities and still stay on the track i believe that label: Albano-Illyrian origin would suffice for all Albanian related groups no matter time or arrival and origin. Second are Vlachs so, i dont see any sense in labeling some group as Vlach only except if its not actual Aromun group with TMRCA no larger then 1000 years (when Aromanian and Romanian split one from another). So when Vlach/Aromun etnos probably started to live also separate from Romanian. But still, going by major Aromun study Bosch et al, they concluded (which is clear to see) that there is in fact no "Vlach origin", they are not even connected to Italians for that matter and genetically it could not be proven. But rather, they are latinized natives (Indoeuropeans, paleo-balkan population), more specifically mix of ancient Greeks, Illyrians, Thracians and later arriving Slavs. So even tho isolated, Aromuns are still native to the Balkans and are most likely one of previously mentioned origin.

    So groups that would make more sense are: Greek, Thracian, Italic, Dacian and Albano-Illyrian. Furthermore any of them could have become a Vlach but i would label Vlach only these that are at maximum of 1000 years far from Aromuns. But more further away both Romanian and Aromanian sample could be Dacian, Thracian or Illyrian, even Hellenic in origin. Cetina label was also very speculative.
    I think that most fair label for all these groups is Paleo-Balkan IE origin which would include ancient Greeks, Illyrians, Thracians, Dacians and other groups.. Even Italic tribes.

    What really interests me is how do you interpret your own line Aspurg? like you pointed origin in these Greek lines, and giving the possibilities you offered you would have to be Arvanite or Vlach, but i think truth is something else. So i would like to hear your explanation about your line giving that you are also E-v13 from the Balkans? Do you match Lakic, you are Bosnian Serb right?

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    So yes, i believe that L618 and E-v13 are both Neolithic European haplogroups. L618 found in Neolithic Spain and Balkans, and both L618 and V13 having exclusively European distribution must have belong to Neolithic Europe and by origin and language they were Afro-Asiatic also known as Hamito Semitic, furthermore they for sure mixed with Europeans at that time groups like I1, I2, and other paleolithic remains. Furthermore possibly forming a separate language like Basques is today or continued a version of Afro Asiatic language brought by Middle East. Furthermore they would be isolated or rare European population until only one part of these Neolithic E-v13s joins Proto IEs. Specifically BY6550, Y30977, and CTS5856. TMRCA 4800 ybp. And they would become as Maciamo says probably a major elite force among IE Bronze Age expansion.

    Therefore even tho all living E-v13 today is out of IE BA expansion with most likely having their main base setup at Balkans. Their prior origin is out of N Africa, thru Middle East into the Europe probably 12 000 years ago (L618 formed date) speaking some sort of Afro-Asiatic>Semitic (Hamito Semitic) language. They are lost in bottleneck today, just like plenty of other paleolithic and neolithic groups with IE arrival. Major loss in TMRCA can be seen in haplogroup I1, but we know many other European Neolithic haplogroups reduced while IE BA haplogroups expanded.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    A very high quality post with lots to reflect on. The Dorian invasions that put an end to the Mycenean culture are being confirmed basically on the y-dna level also. Linguist Kretschmer believed the Dorian invasions and Sea Peoples to be either the same event or intertwined somehow.

    With all due respect, i dont see how this would prove anything, since both Dorians and Myceneans had E-v13. Modern display of Albanian or for this matter Greek lines is just a product of centuries of bottlenecks (dying without leaving progeny) and founder effects, rapid expansions of whats left and so on. Also mutual way of assimilation and migrations. Dorians and both Myceneans were Ancient Greeks and Indo-Europeans and for sure had E-v13, there was plenty of wars later, Alexander the Great, Persians, Illyrians and so on, you cant look at modern haplos of living people and their TMRCA and conclude that it proves something about some people 3000 years ago...


    Quote Originally Posted by Nik View Post
    Haha hello cousin!

    It makes sense what you're saying about the Vasojevic and obviously all those tribes in Montenegro are not related to each other as the legend says, but they all do come from Herzegovina

    He never said that but rather he made a question and i think this question suffices, but your answer also to be quoted into a entry post of new thread about this topic.
    I only dont understand why do not Albanian admins primarily Flor and Skerdi interact when someone writes such a disinformation's based on a weak knowledge.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    With all due respect, i dont see how this would prove anything, since both Dorians and Myceneans had E-v13. Modern display of Albanian or for this matter Greek lines is just a product of centuries of bottlenecks (dying without leaving progeny) and founder effects, rapid expansions of whats left and so on. Also mutual way of assimilation and migrations. Dorians and both Myceneans were Ancient Greeks and Indo-Europeans and for sure had E-v13, there was plenty of wars later, Alexander the Great, Persians, Illyrians and so on, you cant look at modern haplos of living people and their TMRCA and conclude that it proves something about some people 3000 years ago...


    He never said that but rather he made a question and i think this question suffices, but your answer also to be quoted into a entry post of new thread about this topic.
    I only dont understand why do not Albanian admins primarily Flor and Skerdi interact when someone writes such a disinformation's based on a weak knowledge.
    What in hell are you talking about? Just PM me in Albanian.

    I simply said that what he said about Vasojevic makes sense and that now we finally have evidence that Hoti, Krasniqi, Vasojevic, etc. were not brothers. Where's the disinformation?

    Besides, you're the guy (Dema of The Apricity) that claims that E-V13 Albanians have African or as you say "bumpy" noses and lips and only you J2 Elite Race are so handsome to look upon.

    Too hurt that you got a ME J2-M205* and turned that hatred towards E-V13 Albanians because of us being a dominant group?

    Back to TA and stop bothering Aspurg too. He's a nice guy and he'll probably take his time to answer your nonsense so I hope he reads this first.

    Aspurg didn't label all the E-V13 Arvanite but since they were found among Greeks who are very close to and share the same deep clades with Albanians, therefore they must be Arvanite clades in Greece. He didn't rename the clade.

    Second, we know that Vlachs in Greece came mostly from Eastern Balkans so no point of wasting time again.

    Third, you seem so keen to connect us "bumpy nosed and lips E-V13" with Afro-Asiatic languages. Is it because your haplogroup is originally Arab that you want all of us to be of Afro-Asiatic origin so that you don't feel lonely and alienated?

    And change your flag to Kosovo you're not from Albania.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nik View Post
    What in hell are you talking about? Just PM me in Albanian.

    I simply said that what he said about Vasojevic makes sense and that now we finally have evidence that Hoti, Krasniqi, Vasojevic, etc. were not brothers. Where's the disinformation?

    Besides, you're the guy (Dema of The Apricity) that claims that E-V13 Albanians have African or as you say "bumpy" noses and lips and only you J2 Elite Race are so handsome to look upon.

    Too hurt that you got a ME J2-M205* and turned that hatred towards E-V13 Albanians because of us being a dominant group?

    Back to TA and stop bothering Aspurg too. He's a nice guy and he'll probably take his time to answer your nonsense so I hope he reads this first.

    Aspurg didn't label all the E-V13 Arvanite but since they were found among Greeks who are very close to and share the same deep clades with Albanians, therefore they must be Arvanite clades in Greece. He didn't rename the clade.

    Second, we know that Vlachs in Greece came mostly from Eastern Balkans so no point of wasting time again.

    Third, you seem so keen to connect us "bumpy nosed and lips E-V13" with Afro-Asiatic languages. Is it because your haplogroup is originally Arab that you want all of us to be of Afro-Asiatic origin so that you don't feel lonely and alienated?

    And change your flag to Kosovo you're not from Albania.
    Disinformation is claiming that Malisor which would also include Albanian clans also have origin in Bosnia and Hercegovina. Only that. And i am opening topic about that as we speak.

    Furthermore i cant believe the amount of nonsense you written in this post. To answer to you i would totally have to go off-topic into childish level where i dont want to be.

    I was never hurt to be J2-M205, but rather investigating deeper and deeper i realized what i already knew. And that is that we come from very proud and honorable people.
    Also as we knew nothing about this group before, now we do know a great deal. Phoenicians assimilated into Ancient Greeks and Illyrians.

    No i wont get back to TA, i dont even read it, i left it with my own desire and i dont have time for such a time-wasting forum. Also i didnt agree with most of TA on majority of things.

    Aspurg didnt label all the E-v13 Arvanite but for Illyrian origin he left room only for these two groups: Arvanite, and Vlach. Even tho i have respect for Aspurg work i just wanted to give him hint into my view of situation. Besides Aromun and Arvanite are modern ethnic groups, we are here talking about ancient origin, more focused into a Bronze Age. So i dont see logic putting Aromun and Arvanite alongside Hellenic, Illyrian, Dacian etc... Its just like mixing apples and pears.

    Furthermore, im answering your questions as i read them, What about Vlachs in Greece? Read what i written about Bosch et al above, Vlachs are just Latinized Romanized Balkan natives, a bit isolated from rest tho, later also slavic influenced. They could be just as of Illyrian just as of Hellenic origin.

    No one is seem to connect E-v13 with Afro-Asiatic you idiot. My very best friends in Kosovo and Albania are E-v13 but also my both best real life Croat friends (place where i live) turned out to be E-v13.
    I have nothing but respect for this haplogroup and i never talked bad about it. What you are talking about is probably a short period when E-v13 was a bit trolled on TA and if you cant take that then you should question yourself again. Second to that i dont say that you have a bumpy nose but i have theory that Ydna is connected with physical look. But i was always claiming E-v13 is European haplogroup. What we are talking here is more ancient origin.

    L618 went thru Middle East, most likely speaking sort of Afro-Asiatic language. Semitic also goes into that group. Same with haplogroup G2 bringing Neolitic agro-culture to European hunter gatherers.
    When E-L618 made E-v13 we dont know what kind of language they adopted or continued and seems that entire part of E-v13 and L618 from ancient bones is lost in bottleneck, does not exist in modern people. I see only one survivior from Sardnia in Yfull who is L618+ and V13- https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-L618/
    Only ones who exist are 4800 years TMRCA BA clades that seem to expanded with Indo-Europeans. But E-v13 is formed 8100 ybp. So we are talking about this entire population of E-v13 from 4800 TMRCA to 8100 years TMRCA and entire L618 which was lost in bottleneck and for sure was not of IE origin. We know that it arrived to Europe thru Middle East most early possible is 12 000 years ago. But it could be later. Definitivley speaking Afro Asiatic or also known as Hamito Semitic language.

    My haplogroup is not Arab but proto-Semitic and Mediterranean for 6000 years, Latin alphabet that we are using right now and ancient Greek alphabets both have origin in ancient Phoenician Semitic alphabet. And even if i was Arab i would not care the slightest, i wont remove Albanian flag, and if i remove it i will put Palestinian one instead, its my personal choice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    L618 went thru Middle East, most likely speaking sort of Afro-Asiatic language. Semitic also goes into that group. Same with haplogroup G2 bringing Neolitic agro-culture to European hunter gatherers.
    When E-L618 made E-v13 we dont know what kind of language they adopted or continued and seems that entire part of E-v13 and L618 from ancient bones is lost in bottleneck, does not exist in modern people. I see only one survivior from Sardnia in Yfull who is L618+ and V13- https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-L618/
    Only ones who exist are 4800 years TMRCA BA clades that seem to expanded with Indo-Europeans. But E-v13 is formed 8100 ybp. So we are talking about this entire population of E-v13 from 4800 TMRCA to 8100 years TMRCA and entire L618 which was lost in bottleneck and for sure was not of IE origin. We know that it arrived to Europe thru Middle East most early possible is 12 000 years ago. But it could be later. Definitivley speaking Afro Asiatic or also known as Hamito Semitic language.
    I do believe that E-Z1919(father clade of L618) carriers likely spoke an early version of Afro-Asiatic somewhere in northern Africa, and maybe L618 also(some link it to the Capsians, possible speakers of early Afro-Asiatic). However, I don't think Neolithic farmers spoke an Afro-Asiatic language. Likely that the first Anatolian farmers spoke some language isolate native to west Asia considering that now genetics is suggesting that they were Anatolian hunter-gatherers that adopted farming. The Tyrsenian and Vasconic language families for example were likely to have stemmed from Neolithic farmers. The non-IE loanwords in Greek and other European languages also don't seem to show affinity with Afro-Asiatic. So most likely that G2 carriers didn't speak Afro-Asiatic and that E-L618 carriers adopted the language/s of these west Asian farmers.
    Ydna: J-ZS241

    mtDNA: T1a1l

    Maternal Ydna: E-V13>CTS5856*

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelmendasi View Post
    I do believe that E-Z1919(father clade of L618) carriers likely spoke an early version of Afro-Asiatic somewhere in northern Africa, and maybe L618 also(some link it to the Capsians, possible speakers of early Afro-Asiatic). However, I don't think Neolithic farmers spoke an Afro-Asiatic language. Likely that the first Anatolian farmers spoke some language isolate native to west Asia considering that now genetics is suggesting that they were Anatolian hunter-gatherers that adopted farming. The Tyrsenian and Vasconic language families for example were likely to have stemmed from Neolithic farmers. The non-IE loanwords in Greek and other European languages also don't seem to show affinity with Afro-Asiatic. So most likely that G2 carriers didn't speak Afro-Asiatic and that E-L618 carriers adopted the language/s of these west Asian farmers.

    E-L618 split from E-v22, so almost entire brother clade of L618 is Semitic. This could point out that V22 remained in MENA, while L618 went directly to Europe. Where except 3 ancient bones, out of almost 100 it was not significant part of European population until BA IE expansion where as it seems they played a major role. They for sure entered Europe as sort of Semitic population. Later probably forming their own language not connected to other neighbor ones.

    I found solid text on Wiki that goes good with this debate:

    There is no direct evidence of the languages spoken in the Neolithic. Some proponents of paleolinguistics attempt to extend the methods of historical linguistics to the Stone Age, but this has little academic support. Criticizing scenarios which envision for the Neolithic only a small number of language families spread over huge areas of Europe (as in modern times), Donald Ringe has argued on general principles of language geography (as concerns "tribal", pre-state societies), and the scant remains of (apparently indigenous) non-Indo-European languages attested in ancient inscriptions, that Neolithic Europe must have been a place of great linguistic diversity, with many language families with no recoverable linguistic links to each other, much like western North America prior to European colonization.

    Theories of "Pre-Indo-European" languages in Europe are built on scant evidence. The Basque language is the best candidate for a descendant of such a language, but since Basque is a language isolate, there is no comparative evidence to build upon.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neolithic_Europe#Language

    So as it can be seen, this Neolithic part of European history is very shady. Most solid evidence is Basque language that survived IE assimilation, and Basque is isolated language not falling in any known group.

    Therefore we can conclude that they spoken some kind of Neolithic isolated European language, but going back to their North Africa and Middle Eastern path (probably 10 000 years back), there is no doubt about their more ancient North African and Middle Eastern language. So called Hamito Semitic group of languages. So we cant conclude that they totally forgotten their old language and started right away to talk some entire new one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    E-L618 split from E-v22, so almost entire brother clade of L618 is Semitic. This could point out that V22 remained in MENA, while L618 went directly to Europe. Where except 3 ancient bones, out of almost 100 it was not significant part of European population until BA IE expansion where as it seems they played a major role. They for sure entered Europe as sort of Semitic population. Later probably forming their own language not connected to other neighbor ones.

    I found solid text on Wiki that goes good with this debate:

    There is no direct evidence of the languages spoken in the Neolithic. Some proponents of paleolinguistics attempt to extend the methods of historical linguistics to the Stone Age, but this has little academic support. Criticizing scenarios which envision for the Neolithic only a small number of language families spread over huge areas of Europe (as in modern times), Donald Ringe has argued on general principles of language geography (as concerns "tribal", pre-state societies), and the scant remains of (apparently indigenous) non-Indo-European languages attested in ancient inscriptions, that Neolithic Europe must have been a place of great linguistic diversity, with many language families with no recoverable linguistic links to each other, much like western North America prior to European colonization.

    Theories of "Pre-Indo-European" languages in Europe are built on scant evidence. The Basque language is the best candidate for a descendant of such a language, but since Basque is a language isolate, there is no comparative evidence to build upon.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neolithic_Europe#Language

    So as it can be seen, this Neolithic part of European history is very shady. Most solid evidence is Basque language that survived IE assimilation, and Basque is isolated language not falling in any known group.

    Therefore we can conclude that they spoken some kind of Neolithic isolated European language, but going back to their North Africa and Middle Eastern path (probably 10 000 years back), there is no doubt about their more ancient North African and Middle Eastern language. So called Hamito Semitic group of languages. So we cant conclude that they totally forgotten their old language and started right away to talk some entire new one.
    E-L618 split from E-Z1919, E-V22 also split from Z1919. Originally V22 certainly wasn't Semitic considering how Proto-Semitic seems to have developed sometime during the late Chalcolithic or early Bronze Age somewhere in the southern Levant, whilst V22 developed during the Mesolithic in northern Africa. Though E-V22 certainly was part of the early Afro-Asiatic population. I think that when it comes to E1b, Proto-Semitic speakers likely carried E-M34 branches.

    I do agree with the statement that Neolithic Europe was a diverse place in terms of linguistics, made up of various language families which may or may not have been related to each other. However, I do think that there is solid evidence suggesting that none of these main language families were Afro-Asiatic, based on some of the languages that we assume stem from Neolithic farmers(Aegean, Vasconic and Tyrsenian for example) as well as toponyms and loanwords. I believe that originally the E-L618 carriers spoke an early form of Afro-Asiatic that gradually got replaced by one of the EEF languages as they settled in Europe. L618 for one seems to be connected to the Cardial culture when it comes to Europe, a EEF culture that I very much doubt spoke a variant of Afro-Asiatic. Though as you said, this part of European history is kinda hazy when it comes to linguistics.

    If we assume that E-V13 originated in the Neolithic Balkans, which is the most likely theory, then the original carriers themselves weren't Afro-Asiatic speakers but rather speakers of some EEF language isolate. This would still apply even if it originated in Neolithic Anatolia. And later on the main branch, CTS5856, would get absorbed by PIE speakers somewhere in central Europe during the Bronze Age and expand with them across most of Europe and potentially Asia. Though as was established before, if you go far back enough to the origin of L618, they were originally likely Afro-Asiatic speakers.

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    Yes i agree Kelmendasi on most that you said. When L618 entered Europe it was too early for Semitic languages i ment to say Afro-Asiatic.
    But when i said V22 is almost entirely Semitic i ment in modern distribution, i know their TMRCA goes before Semitic languages.

    Also E-Z1919 is father of L618 and V22. Even tho not much older father, ony 1300 years older according to Yfull.
    L618 and V22 are absolutely two parallel brother clades, both formed 12 000 years ago.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    Aspurg,you have done good job on isolating clades found among Greeks. Iabsolutely believe that even tho i didnt double check them.
    I had this info stacked for many months so I just came forward with it. You are free to check them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    Mycritics go mostly first to methodology used in order to try to findtime of arrival, in this case going strictly by TMRCA (you concludedLBA-EIA, i say its more likely EBA I II III, just as all other IE,
    I placed most of Greek into LBA-EIA becuse that’s where they fitgoing by their age and diversity. And I explained for some of themwhy, for examples those under Y3183.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    Also i dont understand why you only included Arvanite and Vlachpossibility.
    Because it is very important to isolate haplotypes that have nothing to do with Anceint Greece. It’s a common knowledge that both Arvanites and Vlachs are numerous in Greece, in cases where modern Greek E-V13’s closely cluster with Albanians obviously they are extremely likely to have Arvanite ancestry, ditto in the case of Vlachs and Aromanians. The criteria is simple:belonging to same clade as Albanians, Aromanians, Bulgarians, having a a similar haplotype (that is sharing a late Medieval period ancestor), and also having additional hints, such as regional spread or surnames. For example the Greek E-CTS6377*who closely clusters with a Bulgarian (4/37) has surname “Vlahopoulos”,so how his surname not be an indication of his ancestry combined with his Y-DNA?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    Arvanitecan only confuse you because its only one group of Albanians whileyou cant label all Albanians in Greece as Arvanites. They can beCameria Albanians, Northern or Western ones.
    You have a point here, I primarily meant by Arvanite “of Albanian origin”, that might include non-Arvanite origin but likely majority of such cases are Arvanite.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    Alsowe can conclude that Illyrians but Albanians also migrated to Greeksince ancient times,


    ...Sogroups that would make more sense are: Greek, Thracian, Italic,Dacian and Albano-Illyrian. Furthermore any of them could have becomea Vlach but i would label Vlach only these that are at maximum of1000 years far from Aromuns. But more further away both Romanian andAromanian sample could be Dacian, Thracian or Illyrian, even Hellenicin origin.


    By labeling something “ancient Greek” I said nothing of their distant whereabouts in most cases, they could be Dorian, Ionian, Aetolian etc. Also some might be Illyrian and Thracian. But I believe these were present there in Antiquity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    Secondare Vlachs so, i dont see any sense in labeling some group as Vlachonly except if its not actual Aromun group with TMRCA no larger then1000 years (when Aromanian and Romanian split one from another).
    Well Aromanians and Romanians are generally distinct genetically but it seems several Vlach groups existed around Balkans, I refer to all of them. Some of these actually do cluster with Aromanians proper (found in 2006 study), like E-Z19851, E-Y16729*and probably this E-Y3183* clade as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    Cetinalabel was also very speculative.
    It is not, there are multiple very good reasons why Cetina should be associated with V13. Rafc wrote a text about it, but additionally I know some important facts. The only other alternative for the origin of V13 is Trypillia element (as one E-M78 was found there but was of bad quality), and that argument has also some basis.
    In the case of this Greek he has no matches anywhere, and a likely invasion of Peloponnese by Cetina people in 22nd century BC might be a good hint.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    You have a point here, I primarily meant by Arvanite “of Albanian origin”, that might include non-Arvanite origin but likely majority of such cases are Arvanite.
    He doesn't have a point and you were right to call it Arvanite. Arvanite simply means an Albanian speaker of Greece and as long as those samples you provided are not from Epirus or some villages in Thrace then they are indeed Arvanite no matter which region of Albania, Montenegro, Kosovo, Macedonia, or even Greece they came from.

    I guess you didn't take me seriously when I said don't waste your time with him. He barely understands what's written anyway and if you noticed on his previous post where he states that he would even put the flag of Palestine then we understand very well that he's like some of those people you share your country with. His J2-M205 results have definitely made his views even worse.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    Disinformationis claiming that Malisor which would also include Albanian clans also have origin in Bosnia and Hercegovina. Only that. And i am opening topic about that as we speak.


    Disinformation? There are Vasojevici writing about their tribe at poreklo, and as far as I know there are no Vasojevici among Albanians, and they are unlikely to be found either. Some info about this tribe came out and I mostly agreed with the notion they came from Herzegovina because now there is some proof for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    Noone is seem to connect E-v13 with Afro-Asiatic you idiot. My verybest friends in Kosovo and Albania are E-v13 but also my both best real life Croat friends (place where i live) turned out to be E-v13.
    You are free to connect it all you like. E-V13/E-L618 is proto-Afro-Asiatic, in fact one of the things that I’m after is to prove that E-V13’s kept plenty of elements of their original culture within the Neolithic Europe. I love Ancient Egypt and I could recite to you portions of Book of the Dead in Egyptian. I wouldn’t mind being V12 or V22 at all.

    Regarding your comments well, the most successful hg’s seem to be R1 and E1b1b as their languages came to dominate the Eurasia, so I’m content that paternally and maternally (I'm almost certainly R-U152) I descend of those. And E-V13 got alot more numerous than it was in Neolithic times, so sporting other languages it still was successful.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    Yesi agree Kelmendasi on most that you said. When L618 entered Europe itwas too early for Semitic languages i ment to say Afro-Asiatic.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    Butwhen i said V22 is almost entirely Semitic i ment in moderndistribution, i know their TMRCA goes before Semitic languages.

    Also E-Z1919 is father of L618 and V22. Even tho not much older father,ony 1300 years older according to Yfull.
    L618and V22 are absolutely two parallel brother clades, both formed 12000 years ago.
    E-V13 has nothing to do with Semites because its separation predates the Semitic ethnogenesis. Besides J1-Z2324 and J2-M205 have been found together in Ain Ghazal EBA, Sidon MBA and also in pre-Prolemaic Egypt in Abusir el-Meleq a Hyksos settlement. So J2-M205 has been found 3 times together with J1-Z2324in Semitic context indicating their crucial role in Semitic ethnogenesis. Ofc they picked up the language likely from some M34 clade.

    E-V22 has surely Egyptian clades as it has been found in Ancient Egypt as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    Whatreally interests me is how do you interpret your own line Aspurg?like you pointed origin in these Greek lines, and giving thepossibilities you offered you would have to be Arvanite or Vlach, buti think truth is something else. So i would like to hear yourexplanation about your line giving that you are also E-V13 from theBalkans? Do you match Lakic, you are Bosnian Serb right?
    I am always eager to explain. I am not Bosnian Serb, my paternal line is from Bijelo Polje,Montenegro. 1/4 Bosnian Serb from central Bosnia and 1/2 Bosniak from central Bosnia from my mothers side. I am YF18711, so you can see I have nothing to do with Lakic or anyone for that matter of these samples. My cousins are very rare among Serbs,they do not exist among Albanians thus far. But I have a very specific haplotype, even at 17 STR’s it can be easily recognized.There is my own Western Balkan group, my clan, another family fromRudnik area in Serbia, and some Bosniak from Tuzla (anonymous) that separated from the Shop (Serbian/Bulgarian border) group in late Medieval times. In the Shop area I have a family from near Leskovac, Sofiya Bulgaria, and anonymous haplotypes from almost certainly Vranje, Pirot and likely North East Macedonia. All of Balkan haplotypes share non-modal dys385b=17, and Western ones share also non-modal dys385a=17, as opposed to the one modal for more distant cousins as well as for other Z17107 and V13: 16-18.
    Now,near Bijelo Polje there is:
    -monastery of Kumanica
    - small village Kunovača
    -village Gostun where my ancestors might have lived (because our village was empty then but we had some other connection to it) with person named Dorman in 1485.
    -Rudnik area cousin (with a tradition of Pester origin) has a surname with Bulgarian/Shop area root (very weird considering the area) and stem based on it likely from Krnja Jela at Pester where also in 1571 there is bastina/land named Kuman
    -In 1571 there is a village in my area as well as one person named Yarmen which is an Ermi variant and Gostun was a regent who descended of Ermi clan, this document was lost in 9th century (rediscovered in 19th) so if anybody had some knowledge of this 500 years ago it could not have been accidental! It's not like some priest story about Nemanjici origin which was made up, which good Serb in his right might would want to descend of Oghur Bolgars? I guess those that do. Also in Rudnik in early 15th century Kumanichic family was active and for them origin from Bijelo Polje area was hypothesised. Well actually I have relatives in both areas, a distant branch of my clan in Rudnik and this other family, as well as village Yarmenovtsi in Rudnik too!

    In Shop area my cousin is from Pecenevce village near Leskovac, is per literature of “unknown origin”, and village was named after the Pechenegs.He clusters closely with Bulgarian from Sofiya, not me.

    In Karcag, Greater Cumania, Hungary kit E5882 is certainly a member of my clade, but also distant, likely late antiquity.Also a similar haplotype is found in Cluj, Romania, certainly also over 1500 years distant, they might be themselves distant those two are 4/17 or 4/19. Karcag was founded in 1506 by Cumans, and I’ve seen a member of this family claiming such descend. In fact he made lots of Cuman monuments there, so I'm sure they want to prove the same. Also I hope to get more cousins from that area soon. Although their current surname is not Cuman there is some documentary evidence to suggest they used to have a certain Cuman surname.

    Basal Z17107 clades are found nearby, other Hungarian E-Y81971 who also according to some have a Cuman surname. Ukrainian Z17107 from Lavov (alongside one in a Lvov study who is 4/17 with him), and also Russian Z17107>BY4467 who hasn’t uploaded to Yfull yet.

    Now me and Hungarian are not close but we share for V13 unmodal dys439=13 which means this value is old for our clade.

    RussianZ17107>BY4467 and another Russian who seems certainly related to him though being 21/111 also both have dys439=13

    Americans who are both Z17107+, Z38456- and are certainly members of the same clade because of DYS511=9 also both have dys439=13 and they are 15/67 so distant. So 3 Z17107* clades and all have an old value of dys439=13.

    So it seems there is going to be an SNP at least based upon dys439=13 that these Z17107* share. If this is confirmed it will mean certain ancestry of Gelonians (Cimmerians with links to Basarabi/Babadag), Massagetae, Bolgars and Cumans for my own clade. I failed to get this SNP when I manually tested 11 of Russian SNP's but still I have over 30 SNP's of highest quality and more of acceptable q., and he did BigY 5-6 years ago with far less coverage and 11 SNP's is too small for his clade. All I need is just one, and I'm very confident of getting it, maybe few more as well.

    Haplotypes that could belong to one or both of these last 2 clades are found in Georgia and Dagestan so that’s what I’m currently working on.

    Alsoa likely Z17107 is found among Tatars, kit 285844 (dys447=25,dys458=16 modal for CTS9320 , dys464cd=17-18 and GATAH4=12 both modal for Z17107>Y30991, also CDY 32-37 space of 5 at CDY is common for Z17107, also he has DYS444=13 modal for Z38456.
    He shares with the Swedish Z38456>BY4435 DYS413a=22
    Alternatively he shares the same with the Ukrainian Z17107* as well as dys481=23 so he might be Z38456-.When we remember that Hungarian E-Y81971 also has dys481=23 (especially if a distant Turkish haplotype with tradition of Caucasus origin comes out Y81971) it might mean that dys481=23 was at basal Z17107 level.

    So he actually might be Z38456+ but he would be a basal Z38456. If confirmed he would indicate at least also basal Z38456 is a Steppe SNP, and of course anything above is automatically.

    Balkan Z17107 is diverse but it has a TMRCA of 1800 ybp. I guess it probably migrated to Balkans in EIA but it most definitely does not descend from the Balkans itself, because of older clades in the Carpathian region etc.

    In any case because my Balkan relatives are founder effect (all of our Balkan cousins are closer to each other than any of them is to those North of Danube) and because they are found with Nomadic traces they very likely at least stem from the North of Danube (G.Cumania- N.Transylvania). It’s either Cimmerian or Dacian ancestry for my clade. Some Free Dacians could have been assimilated by the Nomads as well, Iazyges, Avars, Bulgars have been there.

    I myself have autosomally lots of Steppe ancestry, more than is usual for my location. In MDLP k23 Oracle my first match is Serb/Croat + Yagnobi or Hungarian + Crimean Tatar, it seems to me I got that from BP area. I got some very strong basal R, of all Bosniaks, Serbs I’ve seen I’m the closest to the likes of Mal’ta, Afontova Gora, Samara, Karelia. In fact I beat there my distant cousin from N.Hungary!

    So I interpret it that my ancestors came to Bijelo Polje in 1253 when Bulgarian-Cuman Army ransacked Bijelo Polje (because they were allies of Dubrovnik who was at conflict with Serbia over some trade rights along with one claimant from Herzegovina), and that my clan is Olas or Ulashevich (settled in Karcag area) and also Bolgar Ermi clan (my haplotypes match the spread of Yarmen traces on the Balkan and also Bashkir Yurmati R1a-Z93 S10438 is found in Macedonia and Bulgaria so I'm not making up that this tribal group was present). Make no mistake about it I take all this very seriously and that is why I wish to prove all rationally because only in such case I can work fanatically on reviving the old ways.:)
    Last edited by Aspurg; 30-03-19 at 03:13.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nik View Post
    He doesn't have a point and you were right to call it Arvanite. Arvanite simply means an Albanian speaker of Greece and as long as those samples you provided are not from Epirus or some villages in Thrace then they are indeed Arvanite no matter which region of Albania, Montenegro, Kosovo, Macedonia, or even Greece they came from.

    I guess you didn't take me seriously when I said don't waste your time with him. He barely understands what's written anyway and if you noticed on his previous post where he states that he would even put the flag of Palestine then we understand very well that he's like some of those people you share your country with. His J2-M205 results have definitely made his views even worse.

    Ignorant, look, Arvanite means Albanian speaker but Arvanites are also somewhat isolated and established ethnic group in Greece. I dont say that they are much different from Albanians or that they dont share close common ancestor but calling all Albanians that happen to be in Greece Arvanites, including Ancient Greeks with Illyrian origin is really ridiculous.

    How in the hell on earth would Kosovo Albanian for example become Arvanite only because he happens to be in Greece, are you real or what?

    Furthermore, for example, i recently meet one Albanian from Athens and i engaged conversation about origin and he specifically told me that he is Tosk. He emigrated to Greece and he is from South Albania and he considered and declared himself as Tosk, why would he say Tosk and not Arvanite?, now saying for every Albanian that steps foot into Greece, incl Illyrian lines that were before Arvanites even existed that they are Arvanites is ridiculous. Cham and Lab are not Arvanites and they dont share same history with them, as Arvanites arrived from inner Albania in recent specific period in history while Cham and Lab Albanians are native to their lands.

    look at this:




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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Aspurg, wouldn’t hurt also to mention that traditionally you guys identified as Kuç ;)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Leka View Post
    Aspurg, wouldn’t hurt also to mentions that traditionally you guys identified as Kuç ;)
    Hehe yes, in some traditions but our clan was recorded to have been in Bijelo Polje area before 1645. And before subsequent migrations post Battle of Wiena brought Kuci, Vasojevici, Drobnjaci and many others into the Lim area. Our ancestor was ktitor of Nikoljac in early 17th century that never made any sense with Kuci tradition so I vehemently denied that we descend of Kuci even before the Genetics. Some traditions existed in branches from Pester and Rudnik and those never mentioned Kuci. Yet the Kuci settled the Lim area and as DNA results show they heavily settled Komaran and Pester area where my clan was strong so in these local branches this kinship with Kuci and tradition developed. But obviously my clade has very different roads in comparison to Kuci, we peak in Shop region and have distant relatives way more to the North none of which is true for Kuci. And ofc our village Rakon was mentioned in 1485 in Pulaha's defter (as Komaran belonged to Shkodra sandzak) and it was said the land belonged to the monastery of Nikoljac which ofc cannot be an accident and indicates deeper ties with it into 15th century. Also there is evidence connecting my clan to some Voynuk communities around Komaran and Pester in 16th century, completely in line with the status of ktitor (provider of funds), only an Ottoman accomplice in heart of their territory could have such a status.

    So in short we are the old population of Komaran/Pester. But with a more distant ancestry from Shop. TBH I expected some other hg than V13 because I knew I'm not a real Kuc, soon I saw we differed in haplotype significantly. Also historian Lutovac called my clan "starinci" or the old population, obviously he didn't believe the Kuci story either. Also the only more elaborate tradition claimed descend of a clan from Drekalovici who exist only 100+ years after my clan is attested.

    There are plenty of other "Kuc" descended people in the BP area. For example there is a Konatar family who had a tradition of Kuci descend, even written down by Lutovac.
    Look at this video about Kuci made by one Konatar talking to a historian who descends from Kuci Mrnjavcici, he asked him about his family having tradition of descending from Mrnjavcici


    But Konatar is PH908. LOL

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    I am always eager to explain. I am not Bosnian Serb, my paternal line is from Bijelo Polje,Montenegro. 1/4 Bosnian Serb from central Bosnia and 1/2 Bosniak from central Bosnia from my mothers side. I am YF18711, so you can see I have nothing to do with Lakic or anyone for that matter of these samples. My cousins are very rare among Serbs,they do not exist among Albanians thus far. But I have a very specific haplotype, even at 17 STR’s it can be easily recognized.There is my own Western Balkan group, my clan, another family fromRudnik area in Serbia, and some Bosniak from Tuzla (anonymous) that separated from the Shop (Serbian/Bulgarian border) group in late Medieval times. In the Shop area I have a family from near Leskovac, Sofiya Bulgaria, and anonymous haplotypes from almost certainly Vranje, Pirot and likely North East Macedonia. All of Balkan haplotypes share non-modal dys385b=17, and Western ones share also non-modal dys385a=17, as opposed to the one modal for more distant cousins as well as for other Z17107 and V13: 16-18.
    Now,near Bijelo Polje there is:
    -monastery of Kumanica
    - small village Kunovača
    -village Gostun where my ancestors might have lived (because our village was empty then but we had some other connection to it) with person named Dorman in 1485.
    -Rudnik area cousin (with a tradition of Pester origin) has a surname with Bulgarian/Shop area root (very weird considering the area) and stem based on it likely from Krnja Jela at Pester where also in 1571 there is bastina/land named Kuman
    -In 1571 there is a village in my area as well as one person named Yarmen which is an Ermi variant and Gostun was a regent who descended of Ermi clan, this document was lost in 9th century (rediscovered in 19th) so if anybody had some knowledge of this 500 years ago it could not have been accidental! It's not like some priest story about Nemanjici origin which was made up, which good Serb in his right might would want to descend of Oghur Bolgars? I guess those that do. Also in Rudnik in early 15th century Kumanichic family was active and for them origin from Bijelo Polje area was hypothesised. Well actually I have relatives in both areas, a distant branch of my clan in Rudnik and this other family, as well as village Yarmenovtsi in Rudnik too!

    In Shop area my cousin is from Pecenevce village near Leskovac, is per literature of “unknown origin”, and village was named after the Pechenegs.He clusters closely with Bulgarian from Sofiya, not me.

    In Karcag, Greater Cumania, Hungary kit E5882 is certainly a member of my clade, but also distant, likely late antiquity.Also a similar haplotype is found in Cluj, Romania, certainly also over 1500 years distant, they might be themselves distant those two are 4/17 or 4/19. Karcag was founded in 1506 by Cumans, and I’ve seen a member of this family claiming such descend. In fact he made lots of Cuman monuments there, so I'm sure they want to prove the same. Also I hope to get more cousins from that area soon. Although their current surname is not Cuman there is some documentary evidence to suggest they used to have a certain Cuman surname.

    Basal Z17107 clades are found nearby, other Hungarian E-Y81971 who also according to some have a Cuman surname. Ukrainian Z17107 from Lavov (alongside one in a Lvov study who is 4/17 with him), and also Russian Z17107>BY4467 who hasn’t uploaded to Yfull yet.

    Now me and Hungarian are not close but we share for V13 unmodal dys439=13 which means this value is old for our clade.

    RussianZ17107>BY4467 and another Russian who seems certainly related to him though being 21/111 also both have dys439=13

    Americans who are both Z17107+, Z38456- and are certainly members of the same clade because of DYS511=9 also both have dys439=13 and they are 15/67 so distant. So 3 Z17107* clades and all have an old value of dys439=13.

    So it seems there is going to be an SNP at least based upon dys439=13 that these Z17107* share. If this is confirmed it will mean certain ancestry of Gelonians (Cimmerians with links to Basarabi/Babadag), Massagetae, Bolgars and Cumans for my own clade. I failed to get this SNP when I manually tested 11 of Russian SNP's but still I have over 30 SNP's of highest quality and more of acceptable q., and he did BigY 5-6 years ago with far less coverage and 11 SNP's is too small for his clade. All I need is just one, and I'm very confident of getting it, maybe few more as well.

    Haplotypes that could belong to one or both of these last 2 clades are found in Georgia and Dagestan so that’s what I’m currently working on.

    Alsoa likely Z17107 is found among Tatars, kit 285844 (dys447=25,dys458=16 modal for CTS9320 , dys464cd=17-18 and GATAH4=12 both modal for Z17107>Y30991, also CDY 32-37 space of 5 at CDY is common for Z17107, also he has DYS444=13 modal for Z38456.
    He shares with the Swedish Z38456>BY4435 DYS413a=22
    Alternatively he shares the same with the Ukrainian Z17107* as well as dys481=23 so he might be Z38456-.When we remember that Hungarian E-Y81971 also has dys481=23 (especially if a distant Turkish haplotype with tradition of Caucasus origin comes out Y81971) it might mean that dys481=23 was at basal Z17107 level.

    So he actually might be Z38456+ but he would be a basal Z38456. If confirmed he would indicate at least also basal Z38456 is a Steppe SNP, and of course anything above is automatically.

    Balkan Z17107 is diverse but it has a TMRCA of 1800 ybp. I guess it probably migrated to Balkans in EIA but it most definitely does not descend from the Balkans itself, because of older clades in the Carpathian region etc.

    In any case because my Balkan relatives are founder effect (all of our Balkan cousins are closer to each other than any of them is to those North of Danube) and because they are found with Nomadic traces they very likely at least stem from the North of Danube (G.Cumania- N.Transylvania). It’s either Cimmerian or Dacian ancestry for my clade. Some Free Dacians could have been assimilated by the Nomads as well, Iazyges, Avars, Bulgars have been there.

    I myself have autosomally lots of Steppe ancestry, more than is usual for my location. In MDLP k23 Oracle my first match is Serb/Croat + Yagnobi or Hungarian + Crimean Tatar, it seems to me I got that from BP area. I got some very strong basal R, of all Bosniaks, Serbs I’ve seen I’m the closest to the likes of Mal’ta, Afontova Gora, Samara, Karelia. In fact I beat there my distant cousin from N.Hungary!

    So I interpret it that my ancestors came to Bijelo Polje in 1253 when Bulgarian-Cuman Army ransacked Bijelo Polje (because they were allies of Dubrovnik who was at conflict with Serbia over some trade rights along with one claimant from Herzegovina), and that my clan is Olas or Ulashevich (settled in Karcag area) and also Bolgar Ermi clan (my haplotypes match the spread of Yarmen traces on the Balkan and also Bashkir Yurmati R1a-Z93 S10438 is found in Macedonia and Bulgaria so I'm not making up that this tribal group was present). Make no mistake about it I take all this very seriously and that is why I wish to prove all rationally because only in such case I can work fanatically on reviving the old ways.:)




    You strait away claimed that you have no relatives among Serbs and Albanians and went to Carpathian Bulgar-Cuman army and lots of nonsense like Tatars, Swedes and Russians. While the truth is something else.
    I am sorry to say but i strait away knew that you are Bosnian Serb. Reason why i knew it, it was because you put your haplogroup Z17107 into Eupedia profile and as a flag you put Bosnia.
    I was like more then 90 % sure that you are more likely Bosnian Serb then Croat or Bosnjak. Because specifically this haplogroup was recently discussed on our inner Albanian forum and i remembered the clade by accident since i have looked into it because it is one of clades for me with great interest of exploration.

    You have very specific clade, for me very easy to recognize and
    exactly know your origin. You are what Bosnjaks and Croats call Krajina Vlach, in this case Bosnian Krajina.
    But going by history and also now confirmed by genetics, specifically your line, as i cant claim that for all Krajina Serbs, is of Montenegrin Albanian Illyrian origin.

    I simply asked you about your paternal line, since we discuss Y-DNA here. How would you classify your origin just as you classified Greek ones. So in one word?
    It does not matter anymore, i see that you are tracing any possibility but the actual and truthful one, and in the end as your genetic results tell you. That you are serbicized Montenegrin Albanian.

    My haplogroup J2-M205>Y22059 has great connections with haplogroup E-v13 and great part of my subclade was assimilated in the same process of assimilation of most of that Serbian and Montenegrin E-v13, but also J2b2, R1b, and other smaller groups. Hence why i am curious about all these haplogroups and i have actually explored them very deeply with proofs in my hands.

    Your subclade E-v13>Z17107>Y30991* dominates at Albanians, were we have great deal of them. So even you are of probably Illyrian origin, you were most likely Montenegrin Albanian and because of Slavicization of your native territories and your Orthodox religion you declare as Serb. Later you emigrated to Krajina. ITs simple as that.

    Look at your clade where your sample YF18711 is also visible among other Croatian Serb samples and plenty of Albanians, it is a clear Balkan origin found among Albanians and Serbicized Albanians from Montenegro and surrounding areas.
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y30991/

    Your TMRCA goes undoubtedly into Illyrian period of timeframe 900 BC, and you share this sublcade with great variety of Albanians and few Croatian and Bosnian Serbs also known as Vlachs, in this specific case Montenegrin Albanians.

    You were recorded as Albanian Kuçi, you come from Montenegro where originally Albanian language was spoken, you share TMRCA 2900 years with plenty of various Albanians and only few serbicized Croatian and Bosnian Vlachs with Albanian origin and you have haplogroup that dominates at Albanians in various subclades with high percentage.




    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post

    Disinformation? There are Vasojevici writing about their tribe at poreklo, and as far as I know there are no Vasojevici among Albanians, and they are unlikely to be found either. Some info about this tribe came out and I mostly agreed with the notion they came from Herzegovina because now there is some proof for it.
    .

    I have long time ago analysed Vasojevici subclade or at least take a better look at it.

    They share same origin and history with you, so being Montenegrin slavicized Albanians with Orthodox religion they declare as Serbs.
    Comparing modern Y-dna picture with ancient bones shows us bottlenecks do their own. We cant look at modern Albanians and speculate that clades that we cant find among them today were not actually Albanian once. Especially if we find these clades at neighboring people that are known thru history for assimilating Albanians where these haplogroups are alien among them and very tipical among Albanians.

    Analyzing Slovenian Y-DNA and comparing it to Serbian one. Knowing that they share same language and same subclades of primary R1a and I2a haplogroups, we can see that E-v13 was very low initially at new coming Slavs. They probably had around 1-3 % of E-v13 as it is even today normal percentages for East and West slavic countries. And we even happen to find Ukrainian and Russian clades among E-v13s. But as suspected its in very low percentages while majority is actually assimilated paleo-balkan remains or more recenty Albanians like in your and Vasojevici case.

    Vasojevici with Slovens, Croats and Bosnjaks still have tribal Balkan TMRCA, typical for many haplogroups.

    Vasojevici, Zdjelar, Djukic, these are all PH1204 and they share TMRCA 1000 years so without doubt Albanians with Montenegrin origin.


    The only reason why there is partially higher percentage of E-v13 in Bosnia and Croatia is primarly because of Serbs where with some of specific haplogroups like this one we can claim that it was Albanian but because of slavicization and Orthodox religion declares as Serb.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    You strait away claimed that you have no relatives among Serbs and Albanians and went to Carpathian Bulgar-Cuman army and lots of nonsense like Tatars, Swedes and Russians. While the truth is something else.

    I have explained it all in detail. And this is the truth. I have few relatives, they occur only in places of Nomad Turkic presence on the Balkans and elsewhere. In fact where they are precisely localized they exactly correspond with it.




    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    I am sorry to say but i strait away knew that you are Bosnian Serb. Reason why i knew it, it was because you put your haplogroup Z17107 into Eupedia profile and as a flag you put Bosnia.

    I'm most definitely not a Bosnian Serb and I'm not so fond of them either, after all I lost some close relatives to them. Bosnians Serbs (and also most Croats) usually dislike Bosnia, they generally would not put the Bosnian flag. I don't. In fact my maternal ancestors descend of Medieval Bosnian nobility turf.:) That is very rare but it is the order of things.



    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    You have very specific clade, for me very easy to recognize and exactly know your origin. You are what Bosnjaks and Croats call Krajina Vlach, in this case Bosnian Krajina.
    But going by history and also now confirmed by genetics, specifically your line, as i cant claim that for all Krajina Serbs, is of Montenegrin Albanian Illyrian origin.
    Hmm, you repeat several times that I'm of Krajina. My family has zero connections to Krajina, and no genetic relatives in Krajina, Bosnian or Herzegovina Serbs. Doesn't have them and likely never will.
    You seem to have comprehension problems, as is seen by your poor English, these days most of population tends to have better skills.
    Also I myself have zero ancestry from Krajina from any side.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    I simply asked you about your paternal line, since we discuss Y-DNA here. How would you classify your origin just as you classified Greek ones. So in one word?
    It does not matter anymore, i see that you are tracing any possibility but the actual and truthful one, and in the end as your genetic results tell you. That you are serbicized Montenegrin Albanian.

    If I had been of Albanian origin I would be proud of it like those who have it should not shun it away. You should be proud of your non-Albanian origin as well.


    But I don't have Albanian origins. My specific clade is certainly native to Carpathians, because I have also members of my own clade who do share certainly a number of SNP's (that other BY4461 don't) with me in Carpathian area, and as in close proximity other basal Z17107 are found it is very clear that Z17107 is far more diverse in that region than it is in the Balkans. Albanian BY4461 will never attain diversity in the age that far back.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    My haplogroup J2-M205>Y22059 has great connections with haplogroup E-v13 and great part of

    Some Krici migrated to Krajina area en masse alongside some other hg's, such as N-P189.2, I1-P109 Drobnjaci, also Mirilovici I-Z17855, and many others. Also some E-V13 clades in Krajina Serbs like their L241 are likely native not migrants from the East. But what would you know about E-V13 clades..


    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    my subclade was assimilated in the same process of assimilation of most of that Serbian and Montenegrin E-v13, but also J2b2, R1b, and other smaller groups. Hence why i am curious about all these haplogroups and i have actually explored them very deeply with proofs in my hands.
    Krici were already Slavic speaking in 14th/15th century judging by their personal names.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    Your subclade E-v13>Z17107>Y30991* dominates at Albanians, were we have great deal of them. So even you are of probably Illyrian origin,
    Good Kric, I'm glad I have many distant relatives in Albania, something you don't and you never will. (those South Albanian M205 have nothing to do with you, they had different migratory paths).


    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    you were most likely Montenegrin Albanian and because of Slavicization of your native territories and your Orthodox religion you declare as Serb. Later you emigrated to Krajina. ITs simple as that.
    You're are such a bore. Have I not mentioned that my clan is very old in Bijelo Polje. It has nothing to do with Krajina Serbs, nothing to do with Bosnia in general, Bijelo Polje 100 %. And no evidence whatsoever of anything along Krajina lines. I never migrated to Krajina dummy. My grandfather was born in Bijelo Polje, so was his father, his father and so on.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    Look at your clade where your sample YF18711 is also visible among other Croatian Serb samples and plenty of Albanians, it is a clear Balkan origin found among Albanians and Serbicized Albanians from Montenegro and surrounding areas.
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y30991/
    And? I'm still 2900 years distant from them. They are a bottleneck that began expanding 1800 years ago. Nothing else. All older Z17107 clades are found northwards in Dacia.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    Your TMRCA goes undoubtedly into Illyrian period of timeframe 900 BC, and you share this sublcade with great variety of Albanians and few Croatian and Bosnian Serbs also known as Vlachs, in this specific case Montenegrin Albanians.
    I share only Y30991 with them and I don't share a huge number of SNP's after. Also Y30991 is going to be shared I'm afraid for you by various others, including surely Eastern ones as well.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    You were recorded as Albanian Kuçi, you come from Montenegro where originally Albanian language was spoken,
    I am not genetically Kuci, and I descend of Shop area, nothing to do with Kuci and nothing to do with anybody else from the Western Balkan area. My cousins in Shop have no tradition whatsoever about any Kuci, nor do Hungarians LMAO. The tradition about Kuci was made up in recent times, but why would I identify with Kuci LOL, I am not one of them and we have our past that is very interesting. Still i respect greatly the Kuchi.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    you share TMRCA 2900 years with plenty of various Albanians
    And my closest relatives members of my clade (not there yet at YFull but they'll show up now that I know who they are) are not Albanians, but other Serb from Pecheneg village, Bulgarian from Sofiya, Macedonian, Romanian from N.Transylvania and Hungarians from Cumania. No Albanian members of my own clade.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    and only few serbicized Croatian and Bosnian Vlachs with Albanian origin and you have haplogroup that dominates at Albanians in various subclades with high percentage.
    It does not matter that numerically Albanians have most members of this clade, what matters is that this clade is far more diverse in Carpathians. All of those Albanians are just 1 person 1800 years ago. And where are found other clades? All are found way North of Danube.


    You are also too repetitive with your "Illyrian" thing.
    CTS9320 as whole shows Carpathian-Balkan connection. There are clades that are simply native North of Danube and vast majority of those is Dacian, certainly not Illyrian. Also some Balkan clades are certainly Moesian-Triballian and others are Illyrian, and importantly CTS6377* is found in Bulgaria (And a Vlach from Greece), not Albania (and very likely won't ever be found based on STR's), indicating it's proto-Triballian, proto-Dacian origin. Some of those more western clades might have become part of Illyrian movements, but some of them are Illyrianized Triballians. Z5017 also has highest diversity in Bulgaria, as does Z5018. E-V13 is Thracian far more than it is Illyrian, make no mistake about that. Some Albanian E-V13's are not of Illyrian but Thracian origin.

    I am not Illyrian. (But I am maternally ultra Illyrian, more so than great many other Illyrian clades). As explained above my clade certainly descends from the Shop area, it is not native in Montenegro or in Bosnia 100 %. And it is very likely native in the area North of Balkans, as is the entire Z17107 ultimately. The ancestor of Z17107 lived outside of the Balkans, and there is nothing to discuss further on that topic.

    Hmm, I thought maybe my ancestors brought Krici tribe from Bulglaria to Montenegro, because there is a village Bolyare nearby, so we might have had a title of Bolyar, in Bulgaria there is Krichim so I thought maybe we brought some Byzantine soldiers of Middle Eastern origin to MNE in 1253 but that is unlikely.


    So, my suggestion is to read some of the stuff you are fond, and avoid things you haven't got any clue about, which is talking about E-V13 or any of its clades.
    I don't get it why are you upset that Albanian Z17107 invaded Balkans in Antiquity? Ah is it because you seem to dislike E-V13 so they cannot be "invaders" but only some "conquered people"? Well I'm here to bring frustration to those who dislike E-V13, so sorry to dispel your dreams. Because that is what some Serbs at poreklo are thinking too!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    Vasojevici, Zdjelar, Djukic, these are all PH1204 and they share TMRCA 1000 years so without doubt Albanians with Montenegrin origin.
    Yes Zdjelar is that dys458=13 haplotype I was mentioning. Good so after so much time you managed to grasp that. Something any elementary school child would have picked it up by now. Congratulations!! And now Zdjelar and Bobani Vlachs point to them being little older than Vasojevici, and that Vasojevici come from there (Herzegovina), so go to poreklo where you have so many Krici cousins and talk to some Vasojevici there. As Rugovac would say you are the only Albanian with so many cousins among Serbs and no ALbanian relatives. :)

    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    we can see that E-v13 was very low initially at new coming Slavs. They probably had around 1-3 % of E-v13 as it is even today normal percentages for East and West slavic countries.
    Yes very low indeed (in Slavs). But still E-V13 has some presence there (likely non-Slavic Dacian/Cimmerian, some Greek). Many are likely some Dacian tribes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    And we even happen to find Ukrainian and Russian clades among E-v13s.
    And my own E-Z17107 is one of them. Two Z17107, Z38456- clades found in Russians. In anonymous study of Lviv Ukraine we find both of these haplotypes! Their TMRCA is 2900 ybp also which is about 1000 more than the TMRCA of the Albanian BY4461. Also they are 2/154 in Lviv region has 2.5 million people so there are many Z17107 just there.
    Also E-V13 is more common in Tatars on average, it also diverse, few clades might be Greek but most not so. I suspect many are Thraco-Cimmerian.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    They share same origin and history with you, so being Montenegrin slavicized Albanians with Orthodox religion they declare as Serbs.

    They share neither the same origin nor history with me. I am Montenegrin of Cuman Bulgarian ancestry. But similar origins to my own is shared by another PH1246: E-Y84931. You see Pole, and Armenian but also belonging there are Tatars and Hungarians! So this clade is very likely Nomadic and Steppe.


    Remember, commercially tested members of my own clade are found in:
    1) Komaran area Bijelo Polje (according to renowned Romanian historian this particular area is derived from Cumans), with villages of Bolgar etymology like Yarmen, Gostun, with recorded names nearby like Okor (derived from Bolgar Okorsis) etc. monastery Kumanica. My surname having a possible Cuman root as well, and it is found in Bulgaria alongside Cuman names in the same village near Plovdiv!


    2) Pecenevce near Leskovac, next to it there is a village Cekmin, closest analogy is Cuman or Berendei khan Chekman Chagrovich, so this is no by accident.


    3) Karcag, Cumania. An old baron family. Old in Karcag (derived from a chief Qarsaq). And there is evidence of Cuman ancestry for them.

    Also of non-comercially tested/unpublished:
    4) my cousin from Pester is likely from Krnja Jela where a land called Kuman was recorded in 1571
    5) my cousin from Sofiya is from the center of Sofiya where village Kubratovo exists and it was renamed from Kumaniche, and it was per documents alco Kumaniche 400+ years ago.


    All of those places have Türkic roots. Find me a single subclade anywhere on the Balkans with such matching!! It does not exist. And if it does it's a nomadic marker. And at the very least just looking at haplotypes of my cousins a Bijelo Polje <- Shop <- Cumania migratory path is totally consistent with my haplotypes. In Shop there is a large concentration of personal names like Yarmen and there is river Erma at the Serbian Buglarian border because the Ermi clan settled it and named it. And that's where my haplotypes on the Balkan are most frequent. And R-Z93 Yurmati clade is found in Macedonia and Bulgaria (in anonymous databases), so nobody can say these people weren't there.

    It is already absolutely and logically impossible to defeat the thesis that my particular clade was picked up by Cumans/Pechenegs at the very least because all evidence suggests precisely that, but ofc I'm after far more than that..

    This is a thread about Greek V13's, you are off-topic and you initiated going off-topic. And I'll bring one Greek, American kit 196900 found in Grevena, he likely belongs to my own clade though he lacks one STR value typical for it. His closest and I'd say certain match based on some STR's is a Romanian also. Further his match is a Kalmykian haplotype which looks like a likely member of my own clade as well. What is also interesting is that very near Grevena there is another village Gostun, and third is in SW Bulgaria where nearby I have cousins too. Bulgarian authors did connect these 3 villages to Bolgars.
    Alongside that Kalmykian from the study a bunch of other Cuman hg's occur including the Bashkir Yurmati haplotype.


    So there is a window for me for a Nomadic descent, which means a superior descent. I have not said anything of any other clade including Albanian Z17107, they have their own thing going on. But there is a gap of opportunity and I'm going for it, because a Steppe Nomad is better than a non-Steppe Nomad. And even being with Cumans, Bolgars for 100 years is more valuable than having your ancestors being Serbs, Croats, Vlachs, Albanians or what have you not for centuries.. Because nomadic Türks were better.


    My cousin from Pecenevce village told me how their family are alot taller than average population of that region. I told him, its logical because what we descend from (Bolgars) as measured by their remains were giants, because again they were better...

    A connection with Ermi is a likely direct connection with Gelonians, and Gelonians were buddies of Royal Scythians, which is an accomplishment because remember according to Royal Scythians the world is divided among Royal Scythians and scum born to serve them so having a respect of Royal Saka means that you are worth something.

    Dacian or Cimmerian is my distant ancestry. And there is nothing really to discuss. Period. Now let's not go off-topic further.
    Last edited by Aspurg; 05-04-19 at 20:53.

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