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Thread: E-V13 subclades in Greece

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    ......


    Quantity of the text does not represent quality. There is no need to get all nervous and jumpy, breathe slowly.

    I would absolutely not care even if you were Martian or of Saturn origin, frankly. I am not saying out of a blue sky that you are of Albanian origin but rather every evidence fits very well. I understand that you are Serb today, or Montenegrin, but that you are regionally, historically, and finally Y-DNA wise connected with Albanians, and that you fall in Albanian Illyrian group, its undoubtedly certain.

    You dont understand basics, and that TMRCA does not represent time of arrival but rather time when common ancestor of two or more persons lived. Some Greek groups can have higher TMRCA some can have lower, but that does mean automatically that these with lower TMRCA arrived later or that they didnt actually arrive in same time. I will not comment nonsense about M205 and other childish stuff that you were saying because obviously i hit the nerv. So lets continue with important things.

    Why are you neglecting Z17107 among Albanians when its one of primary and largest Albanian E-V13 groups.
    This subclade is represented in Mirdita Dibrri clan also in another variety all Albanian lands.
    You are holding for Hungarians and Cumans while they have lower TMRCA, way less percentage, and they are not even same subclade like you and Albanians.
    You share SNP Y30991 with Albanians and few assimilated Serbs, but not with Hungarians -
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y30991/
    Hungarians are seems like small group also of Balkan origin. You mention them but you dont mention Albanians with who you fall in same group lol.

    Furhtermore Albanians also have few brother clades to Z17107, so you are not lonely here, like Y84585 which also has Mirdita Albanians and Montenegrin inside, or group BY4590 which guess what, also has Albanian and Montenegrin inside.

    You can look at main E-M35 group at FTDNA project, there also this group is dominated with Albanians. But somehow you see every possibility of origin of this group but not Illyrian or Albanian.

    You can look here at my thread from year 2017 where i was already analyzing E-v13 among Slovenes and comparing it with Serbs, where i first brought theory that since Serbian and Slovene R1a and I2a subclades match, and they both speak same South Slavic language. Enormous lack of E-v13 in Slovens but also similar percentage of it in North and East Slavs must give a big hint that original Slavs actually had more realistically 3 % of E-v13, just as Slovenes and majority of Slavs do. 20 % or 30 % of E-v13 among Montenegrins and Serbs is not just a huge anomaly for all Slavic lands, but also for South Slavs like Slovenes, Croats, Bosnjaks, Hercegovianians and so on.
    http://www.foleja.net/index.php?topic=390.0


    Furthermore dont tell me about Vasojevici when i analysed their clade also more then one year ago, i remember clearly that Vasojevici have longest history and are established Montenegrin tribe, while only few Croats, Bosnjaks or Slovens matching them, even tho not from recent tribal time, still have Albanian Montenegrin low 1000 years TMRCA from a Montenegrin people bearing classic Albanian group speaking Albanian language.

    The only reason why you are Serb today is because of slavicization of your native Illyro Albanian lands and Orthodox religion, if you were Catholic you would be Croat. Or if you would be Muslim you would be Bosnjak.

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    0 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post

    Quantity of the text does not represent quality.
    .....
    I have laid out most that needs to be laid out. E-V13 is not Illyrian. Illyrians were assimilated and fully romanized. Illyrian language was Centum, Thracian was Satem, Albanian is Satem. A whole lot of romanized Illyrians got owned by a bunch of E-V13 and R1b heavy Bessi and had Thracian Bessian language imposed upon them. So Thracians > Illyrians I'm afraid.

    No E-V13 is ultimately of "Illyrian" ancestry and all of V13's bar few PH1246 stem from a Thracian territory 4000 ybp. The ancestor of CTS9320 also began spreading from Thracian territory 2900 years ago as part of a Thracian culture double digit IQ fake Albanian Demi boy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    I have laid out most that needs to be laid out. E-V13 is not Illyrian. Illyrians were assimilated and fully romanized. Illyrian language was Centum, Thracian was Satem, Albanian is Satem. A whole lot of romanized Illyrians got owned by a bunch of E-V13 and R1b heavy Bessi and had Thracian Bessian language imposed upon them. So Thracians > Illyrians I'm afraid.
    No E-V13 is ultimately of "Illyrian" ancestry and all of V13's bar few PH1246 stem from a Thracian territory 4000 ybp. The ancestor of CTS9320 also began spreading from Thracian territory 2900 years ago as part of a Thracian culture double digit IQ fake Albanian Demi boy.
    Dema is Albanian, a real one and not a fake. You are a slav, pick one of different identities among south slavs and be happy with it.
    Regarding the soup that you have served here, a mix of folktales, pseudo history and genetics, it's useless to waste my time.
    17 Dec.
    Paget to the Council.

    Now the Council's letters seem to imply (words quoted) that the King will keep no strangers save the Albanoys.

    Cales, 17 Dec. 1545. Signed.


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    Quote Originally Posted by LABERIA View Post
    genetics, it's useless to waste my time.
    Which is not something you know anything about as you don't even know your own haplogroup.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    Which is not something you know anything about as you don't even know your own haplogroup.
    You know even this!!! And how do you know this? lol
    In my humble opinion this thread needs some intervention from the moderators.

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    0 out of 4 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by LABERIA View Post
    You are a slav, pick one of different identities among south slavs and be happy with it.
    The blood will tell.. I'm proud of my superior genetics:

    MDLP K23b
    Using 4 populations approximation:
    ++++
    1 Crimean_Tatar_Coast_ + Hungarian_ + Pole_ + South_German_ @ 1.165675
    2 Belarusian-East_ + Belarusian_South_ + Greek_Northwest_ + Greek_Northwest_ @ 1.188049
    3 Crimean_Tatar_Coast_ + Croat_BH_ + English_ + Pole_ @ 1.204579
    4 Crimean_Tatar_Coast_ + Croat_ + North_German_ + Sorb_ @ 1.206079
    5 Austrian_ + Crimean_Tatar_Coast_ + Slovenian_ + Sorb_ @ 1.207398
    6 Crimean_Tatar_Coast_ + Croat_BH_ + English_Kent_GBR_ + Mixed_East_Slav_ @ 1.209378
    7 Belarusian_Russian_ + Crimean_Tatar_Coast_ + Croat_BH_ + English_Kent_GBR_ @ 1.214662
    8 Bulgarian_ + Greek_Northwest_ + Russian_South_ + Ukrainian_West_ @ 1.233659
    9 Crimean_Tatar_Coast_ + Croat_BH_ + North_European_ + Pole_ @ 1.233775
    10 Greek_Northwest_ + Greek_Northwest_ + Pole_ + Russian-West_ @ 1.236720
    11 Bosnian_ + Crimean_Tatar_Coast_ + North_German_ + Sorb_ @ 1.242020
    12 Crimean_Tatar_Coast_ + Croat_BH_ + North_German_ + Sorb_ @ 1.249457
    13 Crimean_Tatar_Coast_ + Pole_ + Slovenian_ + South_German_ @ 1.250867
    14 Belarusian_South_ + Greek_Northwest_ + Greek_Northwest_ + Russian_South_ @ 1.255644
    15 Austrian_ + Crimean_Tatar_Coast_ + Kashub_ + Slovenian_ @ 1.257333
    16 Austrian_ + Crimean_Tatar_Coast_ + Czech_ + Kashub_ @ 1.260701
    17 Crimean_Tatar_Coast_ + Italian_Bergamo_ + Latvian_ + Ukrainian_ @ 1.262993
    18 Austrian_ + Crimean_Tatar_Coast_ + Hungarian_ + Sorb_ @ 1.263633
    19 Crimean_Tatar_Coast_ + North_German_ + Serb_BH_ + Sorb_ @ 1.266108
    20 Bosnian_ + Crimean_Tatar_Coast_ + English_Kent_GBR_ + Mixed_East_Slav_ @ 1.269273

    4d71bd543506dafca2bdd77f9ed060c8.jpg

    I am the most Steppe/Uralic shifted South Slav you are going to encounter. People have to cluster alot more to the North of me to match my autosomal basal R results (ofc Qun people were dominately R-Z93 and R-M73). And trust me I look like a Steppe maniac as well, so not your usual S.Slav, let alone Albanian..
    Last edited by Aspurg; 31-03-19 at 19:10.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    The blood will tell.. I'm proud of my superior genetics:

    MDLP K23b
    Using 4 populations approximation:
    ++++
    1 Crimean_Tatar_Coast_ + Hungarian_ + Pole_ + South_German_ @ 1.165675
    2 Belarusian-East_ + Belarusian_South_ + Greek_Northwest_ + Greek_Northwest_ @ 1.188049
    3 Crimean_Tatar_Coast_ + Croat_BH_ + English_ + Pole_ @ 1.204579
    4 Crimean_Tatar_Coast_ + Croat_ + North_German_ + Sorb_ @ 1.206079
    5 Austrian_ + Crimean_Tatar_Coast_ + Slovenian_ + Sorb_ @ 1.207398
    6 Crimean_Tatar_Coast_ + Croat_BH_ + English_Kent_GBR_ + Mixed_East_Slav_ @ 1.209378
    7 Belarusian_Russian_ + Crimean_Tatar_Coast_ + Croat_BH_ + English_Kent_GBR_ @ 1.214662
    8 Bulgarian_ + Greek_Northwest_ + Russian_South_ + Ukrainian_West_ @ 1.233659
    9 Crimean_Tatar_Coast_ + Croat_BH_ + North_European_ + Pole_ @ 1.233775
    10 Greek_Northwest_ + Greek_Northwest_ + Pole_ + Russian-West_ @ 1.236720
    11 Bosnian_ + Crimean_Tatar_Coast_ + North_German_ + Sorb_ @ 1.242020
    12 Crimean_Tatar_Coast_ + Croat_BH_ + North_German_ + Sorb_ @ 1.249457
    13 Crimean_Tatar_Coast_ + Pole_ + Slovenian_ + South_German_ @ 1.250867
    14 Belarusian_South_ + Greek_Northwest_ + Greek_Northwest_ + Russian_South_ @ 1.255644
    15 Austrian_ + Crimean_Tatar_Coast_ + Kashub_ + Slovenian_ @ 1.257333
    16 Austrian_ + Crimean_Tatar_Coast_ + Czech_ + Kashub_ @ 1.260701
    17 Crimean_Tatar_Coast_ + Italian_Bergamo_ + Latvian_ + Ukrainian_ @ 1.262993
    18 Austrian_ + Crimean_Tatar_Coast_ + Hungarian_ + Sorb_ @ 1.263633
    19 Crimean_Tatar_Coast_ + North_German_ + Serb_BH_ + Sorb_ @ 1.266108
    20 Bosnian_ + Crimean_Tatar_Coast_ + English_Kent_GBR_ + Mixed_East_Slav_ @ 1.269273

    Attachment 10848

    I am the most Steppe/Uralic shifted South Slav you are going to encounter. People have to cluster alot more to the North of me to match my autosomal basal R results (ofc Qun people were dominately R-Z93 and R-M73). And trust me I look like a Steppe maniac as well, so not your usual S.Slav, let alone Albanian..
    Great, very sexy results.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LABERIA View Post
    Great, very sexy results.
    Agreed for once.

    Quote Originally Posted by LABERIA View Post
    You know even this!!! And how do you know this? lol
    Because I have a thing for small details and some of your Albanians mentioned it here.

    Quote Originally Posted by LABERIA View Post
    In my humble opinion this thread needs some intervention from the moderators.
    Sure, I posted my own analysis of Greek V13's the most comprehensive ever produced by anyone thus far, 100 % on topic and 100 % productive, yet Dema likely incapable of even comprehending what was said (double digit IQ etc.), got upset that I'm getting some love from Albanians (they posted my analysis on Albanian forum) he's not getting and like a spoiled child started going off topic so he could get some attention.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    I have isolated E-V13 clades that as of now occur in Greeks or can be certainly identified based on STR's, and based on diversity of clades and closeness and location of their their matches I added some of my clues about their likely ancestry.

    E-V13>Z1057>Y30977>Y37092/BY14151* an isolated clade without matches found in Kyklades, likely arrived in Greece in EBA, likely/possibly with Cetina people. Ancient Greek.

    E-V13>Z1057>Y30977>Y37092>BY14151* (very likely a parallel clade) One Greek from Argos area seems to possibly cluster with the Serbian Vasojevici clan (7/37), but hard to say without deeper tests how distant he is to them. So he could be either Ancient Greek or Vlach.

    E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>S7461>BY5022>Y150909>Y150909a - Found in Arcadia. Ancient Greek. One Asia Minor sample likely clusters with him, and might have something to do with Myceneans, though with TMRCA 3000 it boomed later. S7461 has generally highest diversity in Thrace/Bulgaria so it ultimately derives from there.

    E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>Z5017>BY4684>Z19851>Z19851a - Found in a Greek from Aetolia, and based on STR's one from Pelopenesus in a study. Also found in Aromanians from Albania and Aromanian from Cogalniceanu Romania who has an identical haplotype. Certain Vlach origin.

    E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>Z5017>BY4684* - Found in two Greeks from Thessaly and Greek Thrace who cluster together. Also closely matching to them on STR's are 4 Basarabi individuals from Romania (Basarabi study). A more distant BY4684* is found around Balkan mountain in Bulgaria. Vlach ancestry for this clade seems certain.

    E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>Z5017>Z5016>CTS6377* - A Greek with a surname suggesting Vlach origin, clusetrs closely (4/37) with a Bulgarian from Central Balkan Mountains so he must be of Vlach ancestry.

    E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>Z5017>Z5016>CTS6377>CTS9320>Z17264 - One of the most common E-V13 clades in Greece. 2 samples at YFull and also a Bulgarian sample also clusters with Greeks (dys439=9, dys448=19). Ancient Greek definitely but paternal CTS9320 has far greater diversity to the North so it likely arrived to Greece from the North in EIA. It is generally frequent in Asia Minor Greeks, Greek Macedonia, and Greek islanders. Found also on Cyprus.

    E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>Z5017>Z5016>CTS6377>CTS9320>Z171 07>Z38456>BY4461>Y97307 Found in a number of Greeks from Greece in various locations: Asia Minor, Peloponnesus (study). Also a few of Turks cluster with Asia Minor Greeks and ultimately Albanians. Arvanite ancestry.

    E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>Z5017>Z5016>CTS6377>CTS9320>Z169 88>A11837 An ethnic Greek from Southern Albania clusters closely with a Serb from Shop and a Serb from Sumadija. Likely Vlach ancestry.

    E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>Z5017>Z5016>CTS6377>CTS9320* (Z16988-, Z17107-, Z17264-, S19928-) - One Greek from Greek Thrace, might be Ancient Greek or Thracian. He is not tested to some other newer parallel branches under CTS9320.

    E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>Y35953>PF6784 - Common in Pontic Greeks, yet also have two parallel clades in Poland and Slovakia at TMRCA of 3400, indicating it too arrived from the North in MBA/LBA. Ancient Greek.

    E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>Z5018>S2979>FGC33621>A10158 - Found in a Greek from Western Crete. Clusters with an American. Ancient Greek but parallel clades are found in Northern Albania as well as in Central Bulgaria. TMRCA of 2900 ybp suggests arrival to Greece from the North in EIA.

    E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>Z5018>S2979>FGC11451>FGC11450>Y146086 Found in a Greek from Aetolia and another Greek. They closely cluster with Albanians. Arvanite ancestry.

    E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>Z5018>S2979>FGC11451>FGC11450* (DYS458=14/DYS460=10) Found in a Greek from Euboia and one Greek from Phocaea. They closely cluster with Albanians. Arvanite ancestry.

    E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>Z5018>S2979>Z16659>Y3183* - based on specific STR's found in a number of Greeks from Corinthia and Greek Macedonia. They cluster closely with a Macedonian (tested at Y37 and SNP confirmed as Y3183*), Romanian, Hungarian and a Bulgarian. Considering the diversity of Y3183 in Bulgaria they probably have Vlach ancestry, also some Aromanian samples might cluster with them, but Aromanians lack certain important STR's to assign them to this clade with certainty.

    E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>Z5018>S2979>Z16659>Y3183>S2972>Z 16661>S2978 - Found in several Greeks from Messinia, Peloponnesus. Very likely Ancient Greek but considering diversity of Z16661 north of Greece it likely arrived to greece in LBA or EIA. Some Eastern and Sardinian samples might fit into Greek colonisation.

    E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>Z5018>S2979>Z16659>Y3183>S2972>A 7135>A7136 - Found in a Greek from Laconia. Very likely Ancient Greek, yet the high diversity of BY5430 (under A7135) in Central-Eastern Balkans clearly suggests the origin from the North (Eastern Balkans) and arrival to Greece in EIA.

    E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>Z5018>S2979>Z16659>L241 - Two Greeks are L241+ but without deeper tests. One from Messinia and one from Arcadia (?). Likely Ancient Greeks had their own specific clades of L241. Additionally a significant percentage of Cypriot E-V13 from studies is certainly related to a Cypriot Greek who tested Y37 and who seems almost certainly L241. Based on some STR's they might belong to L241>Z38770 subclade. L241 has plenty of diversity in more Northern areas of the Balkan so it seems Greek L241 arrived to Greece in EIA.

    E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>Y16729* - One Greek clusters closely with a Macedonian and a number of Aromanians. Vlach ancestry.

    Edit:
    E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273* (Z16663-, S3003-, S7461-, PH1246-, Z5017-, Z5018-, Y16729-, Y19509-, BY6527-, FGC14092-) - I forgot one Cypriot who doesn't cluster with anyone, so Ancient Greek with likely older MBA presence in Greece.

    Additionally
    E-CTS1273* YF12550 is an ethnic Bulgarian from N.Greece, not a Greek.
    E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>Y19508* found in Malta might have something to do with Ancient Greeks.


    Generally it seems most of Ancient Greek V13's arrived to Greece in LBA-EIA timeframe.
    Nicely done, Aspurg!
    Y-DNA: J-L283
    Maternal Y-DNA: E-V13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    Agreed for once.



    Because I have a thing for small details and some of your Albanians mentioned it here.



    Sure, I posted my own analysis of Greek V13's the most comprehensive ever produced by anyone thus far, 100 % on topic and 100 % productive, yet Dema likely incapable of even comprehending what was said (double digit IQ etc.), got upset that I'm getting some love from Albanians (they posted my analysis on Albanian forum) he's not getting and like a spoiled child started going off topic so he could get some attention.
    Did you checked your "sources"?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    I have laid out most that needs to be laid out. E-V13 is not Illyrian. Illyrians were assimilated and fully romanized. Illyrian language was Centum, Thracian was Satem, Albanian is Satem. A whole lot of romanized Illyrians got owned by a bunch of E-V13 and R1b heavy Bessi and had Thracian Bessian language imposed upon them. So Thracians > Illyrians I'm afraid.
    No E-V13 is ultimately of "Illyrian" ancestry and all of V13's bar few PH1246 stem from a Thracian territory 4000 ybp. The ancestor of CTS9320 also began spreading from Thracian territory 2900 years ago as part of a Thracian culture double digit IQ fake Albanian Demi boy.
    We don't really know whether Illyrian was Centum or Satem, and Proto-Albanian was in all likelihood neither (splitting off before the development of those isoglosses, like the Anatolian languages).

    It is possible that archaic Albanian languages predated Thracian in the wider Balkanic region.

    If E-V13 expanded in the Bronze Age, presumably from the Balkans, what languages was this expansion associated with if not languages ancestral to Albanian?

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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by LABERIA View Post
    Did you checked your "sources"?

    No, are they wrong, or you tested recently?


    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    We don't really know whether Illyrian was Centum or Satem, and Proto-Albanian was in all likelihood neither (splitting off before the development of those isoglosses, like the Anatolian languages).


    It is possible that archaic Albanian languages predated Thracian in the wider Balkanic region.

    Well I've read some views about Albanian having more Thracian affinity from an ex-Yugo linguist, but Albanian definitely does contain Illyrian elements as well.


    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    If E-V13 expanded in the Bronze Age, presumably from the Balkans, what languages was this expansion associated with if not languages ancestral to Albanian?
    E-CTS1273 per all current evidence became very widespread in Eastern Balkans 4000 years ago, prior to that there was no V13 in Eastern Balkans (no PH1246 there), it got to there either from Western Balkans or from the Carpathian region. The latter is probably likely as there is E-L540 with no Balkan connection, Ossetian E-CTS1273*, as well as Kurdish E-CTS1273* without BigY yet (but he's confirmed negative for most clades).

    Subsequently some of clades one finds in Greece got there much later, but it is crystal clear most of Greek V13's are later migrants.

    The fact that E-V13 is very common today in Albanians does not necessarily means it must be associated with the language etc. or at least some of its clades. For example when one looks at the ratio of E-V13 and J-L283 the ratio of L283 to E-V13 in Albanians is far higher than it is in Bulgarians or Romanians.

    Already in aDNA there is one Thracian E-V13 as well as one Scythian E-V13 (likely of Daco-Getic extraction autosomally).

    Albanian V13 clades both under E-Z5017 and E-Z5018 have less diversity than Bulgarian counterparts (and more Albanians are deeper tested), not to speak of clades such as E-S7461, E-Y16729..
    Albanian E-V13's have multiple bottlenecks, (as do Serb/Montenegrin V13's) Bulgarian don't, or far less so..

    Some younger E-V13 clades are very likely involved with Illyrian movements and are Illyrian, others are downright illyrianized Triballians.

    Your compatriot Gottfried Schramm made a thesis about Bessian descent of Albanians. Today it can be said that is not true from a genetic POV for most Albanians but neither is it true for many other peoples such as Hungarians etc.


    There are clades in Albanians which likely have Medieval Eastern Balkan origin. Those are E-FGC11450>Y146086, E-Z5018* and R-PF7563* clusters, of those most important. In addition much is speculated about the R-Z2705, recent evidence points to a more Western ancestry though.


    There is clear undeniable archaeological evidence that Bessi survived and resisted Romanization well into Antiquity. Here is the evidence posted by Serbian mod (who is an archaeologist)
    https://forum.poreklo.rs/index.php?topic=1882.0


    There is also evidence for Illyrian remnants in Komani culture to have survived. And I'm sure Albanian L283 have lots to do with it (as well as various E-V13's, possibly R-Z2705's). But remember that Bessian language is also attested by the biography of Saint Theodosius the Cenobiarch as still alive in 5th century, no such evidence can be mustered for Illyrian.


    Ultimately the best way of determining the exact nature of Albanian is to have Messapian better reconstructed and to find some manuscripts in Bessian which might still exist and compare Albanian with them..


    So I will stay away from the emotional arguments that try to argue from the point of view of a necessity "to be old in an area before others"..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    No, are they wrong, or you tested recently?





    Well I've read some views about Albanian having more Thracian affinity from an ex-Yugo linguist, but Albanian definitely does contain Illyrian elements as well.




    E-CTS1273 per all current evidence became very widespread in Eastern Balkans 4000 years ago, prior to that there was no V13 in Eastern Balkans (no PH1246 there), it got to there either from Western Balkans or from the Carpathian region. The latter is probably likely as there is E-L540 with no Balkan connection, Ossetian E-CTS1273*, as well as Kurdish E-CTS1273* without BigY yet (but he's confirmed negative for most clades).

    Subsequently some of clades one finds in Greece got there much later, but it is crystal clear most of Greek V13's are later migrants.

    The fact that E-V13 is very common today in Albanians does not necessarily means it must be associated with the language etc. or at least some of its clades. For example when one looks at the ratio of E-V13 and J-L283 the ratio of L283 to E-V13 in Albanians is far higher than it is in Bulgarians or Romanians.

    Already in aDNA there is one Thracian E-V13 as well as one Scythian E-V13 (likely of Daco-Getic extraction autosomally).

    Albanian V13 clades both under E-Z5017 and E-Z5018 have less diversity than Bulgarian haplotypes (and more Albanians are deeper tested), not to speak of clades such as E-S7461, E-Y16729..
    Albanian E-V13's have multiple bottlenecks, (as do Serb/Montenegrin V13's) Bulgarian don't, or far less so..


    Your compatriot Gottfried Schramm made a thesis about Bessian descent of Albanians. Today it can be said that is not true from a genetic POV for most Albanians but neither is it true for many other peoples such as Hungarians etc.


    There are clades in Albanians which likely have Medieval Eastern Balkan origin. Those are E-FGC11450>Y146086, E-Z5018* and R-PF7563* clusters, of those most important. In addition much is speculated about the R-Z2705, recent evidence points to a more Western ancestry though.


    There is clear undeniable archaeological evidence that Bessi survived and resisted Romanization well into Antiquity. Here is the evidence posted by Serbian mod (who is an archaeologist)
    https://forum.poreklo.rs/index.php?topic=1882.0


    There is also evidence for Illyrian remnants in Komani culture to have survived. And I'm sure Albanian L283 have lots to do with it (as well as various E-V13's, possibly R-Z2705's). But remember that Bessian language is also attested by the biography of Saint Theodosius the Cenobiarch as still alive in 5th century, no such evidence can be mustered for Illyrian.


    Ultimately the best way of determining the exact nature of Albanian is to have Messapian better reconstructed and to find some manuscripts in Bessian which might still exist and compare Albanian with them..


    So I will stay away from the emotional arguments that try to argue from the point of view of a necessity "to be old in an area before others"..
    This is impossible, Thracian shows clear developments that place it with the northern IE languages, in particular B-S. The arrival of the nomadic Thracians in the regions we know them to have lived in might have been quite late. An early to middle Bronze Age diversification of E-V13 can only correspond to the expansion of a very archaic branch of Indo-European.

    The only extant language that could derive from such an archaic lndo-European layer is Albanian, and modern Albanian still shows some of the features that one would expect to find in an old IE survival.

    It's not an emotional argument for me, as I have no connections to Albania.

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    0 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    This is impossible, Thracian shows clear developments that place it with the northern IE languages, in particular B-S.
    I'm aware of such views but I can refer to you later some linguistic views. I haven't studied those areas like I have Turkic and Iranic languages..

    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    The arrival of the nomadic Thracians in the regions we know them to have lived in might have been quite late.
    What evidence you have Thracians were that "Nomadic"? Bronze Age R-Z93 sample? His cultural horizont in not well researched, genetically he was fully Steppe Iranian, Srubnaya, nothing to do with Slavs or Baltics (they lack strong Gedrosia/Caucasian component Proto-Iranics had since Andronovo culture).

    In fact one likely scenario that caused Satemization of Thracian is influence of Iranic Cimmerians.

    Genetically speaking two clades of Y5587 are found in Bulgaria with a TMRCA of 4400 vbp. Those might have developed the original Thracian language.
    Also likely BY250 is Eastern Balkans as well, but needs more testing. In Bulgaria of R-Z93's of 5 (which is still 5 more clades than zero found in Serbs or Albanians) clades 4 are Bulgar/Cuman.

    The only scenario is where some Baltic R-Z92 gets involved. Balto-Slavic invaders of Thrace? Laughable. Balto-Slavs were very un-nomadic.

    Also you are very wrong from an archaeological POV which does indicates various levels of continuity from BA to IA in Thracian areas.


    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    An early to middle Bronze Age diversification of E-V13 can only correspond to the expansion of a very archaic branch of Indo-European.
    In such a case it can only correspond to a proto-Greek, what do you think those V13's coming to Greece spoke? "Illyrian"? Mind you E-V13 almost certainly has relation to Cetina, and Bubanj Hum III and Armenochori groups are partially derived from Cetina, in those two groups the evidence of Minyan ware is found (associated with first Greek speakers). Greek authors tried to downplay these for their biased reasons (the same reason Albanians, and others are driven by, the need to prove that your own culture has an unending line until the first Amoeba) so that Minyan ware developed in Greece and that proto-Greeks never migrated to Greece.

    You are assuming Illyrian was that old. In fact if Illyrian was Centum it was likely or certainly propagated by various Central European R1b-U152 clades such as some found in Herzegovina these are fully archaeologically correspondent with strong Urnfield element which formed Illyrians. Illyrians prior to Urnfield invasion do not exist. I suspect R-U152 along the way and it is very questionable what was the "Illyrian" language. J-L283 likely spoke a different language ( remember those "Illyrians and real Illyrians"). R-U152 clades are today very rare in Albanians, L283's have little/nothing to do with Urnfield. Some younger V13 clades, ZS3128>ZS6908 might have something to do with it..

    But the point is archaeologically a late Urnfield movement was crucial in Illyrian formation. And hence Illyrians were a younger Balkan group. proto-"Illyrian" language 3200 years ago was spoken in Central Europe not in the Balkans. Unless the language of pre Urnfield L283 Delmatae etc. is the precursor of modern Albanian.

    So J-L283/pre-Urnfield Illyrians and Urnfield almost certainly did not speak the same language.

    You might not be familiar with the archaeological evidence in Illyrian areas but trust me I am very familiar.

    There is no such thing as an Illyrian continuity from EBA/MBA to Antiquity. It does not exist. It was broken by the Urnfield movement and these people were clearly very culturally different from the indigenous population.
    Last edited by Aspurg; 31-03-19 at 21:42.

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    The Thracians were so thoroughly nomadic they had a taboo on agriculture. Plutarch still refers to Spartacus as a nomad, indicating that they never became sedentary.

    If one sees the Thracians as northern invaders, the problem of the earliest ethnographic account of the region in which Homer places enigmatic Pelasgoi between the Greeks in the south and the Thracians in the north is nicely resolved as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    The Thracians were so thoroughly nomadic they had a taboo on agriculture. Plutarch still refers to Spartacus as a nomad, indicating that they never became sedentary.
    By Nomadic I mean living in tents without settlements, living on a horse, my "Nomadic" means Scythian Nomadic. They were certainly not Nomadic in that sense.

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    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    If one sees the Thracians as northern invaders, the problem of the earliest ethnographic account of the region in which Homer places enigmatic Pelasgoi between the Greeks in the south and the Thracians in the north is nicely resolved as well.
    Well that is the usual old narrative for E-V13 from 10 years ago, bunch of "black farmers who got owned.." But the problem is he mentions them in Larissa area, you've got some V13 there but it seems mostly of recent Vlach extraction.

    Are Pelasgians native to Bulgaria and then proceed to invade Greece in LBA/EIA? Does that make sense? I thought Pelasgians are native to Greece.. On Lemnos island (where real Pelasgians lived) you have a rare G2a clade found, I'm far more inclined to connect that to Pelasgians. Also Pelasgians were Tyrsenians, E-V13 ancestors in Neolithic were culturally a very different bunch in comparison to G2a Neolithic peoples I can tell you. They weren't farmers in any typical way to begin with.. And early Cetina people (likely or certainly V13) were highly Nomadic. it is the culture where L283 was found that was fond of settlements and for Cetina settlements were rare.

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    Lets not forget guys that Bulgaria is a melting pot. As a region was repopulated multiple times since the Bronze Age, hence the diversity.

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    Does anyone know if any genetic studies are coming soon from ancient Greece? They found a lot of skeletons from the archaic period, thought to be Cylon’s followers who were killed when he tried to do a coup in Athens. Hopefully they can find useable DNA from the archaic, classical or Hellenistic periods, like they did with Mycenaeans and Minoans.

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    Why haven't these 300 tumuli in Ancient Macedonia been tested:

    300 tumuli in Piera, the Makedones' home according to Hesiod, archeologically shows that Illyrians & Phrygians ruled there until at least 650 BC. Pre-historic Macedonia archaeologically shows an invasion from "northern people" around 1150BC and little Mycenean influence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ralphie Boy View Post
    Does anyone know if any genetic studies are coming soon from ancient Greece? They found a lot of skeletons from the archaic period, thought to be Cylon’s followers who were killed when he tried to do a coup in Athens. Hopefully they can find useable DNA from the archaic, classical or Hellenistic periods, like they did with Mycenaeans and Minoans.
    It has been mentioned on Anthrogenica that there is an upcoming paper on Bronze Age Greece. The paper is most likely not going to include classical age samples though and only Bronze Age ones. There is also an upcoming paper on south Italian samples iirc.
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    3 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    You are assuming Illyrian was that old. In fact if Illyrian was Centum it was likely or certainly propagated by various Central European R1b-U152 clades such as some found in Herzegovina these are fully archaeologically correspondent with strong Urnfield element which formed Illyrians. Illyrians prior to Urnfield invasion do not exist. I suspect R-U152 along the way and it is very questionable what was the "Illyrian" language. J-L283 likely spoke a different language ( remember those "Illyrians and real Illyrians"). R-U152 clades are today very rare in Albanians, L283's have little/nothing to do with Urnfield. Some younger V13 clades, J1 clade of Kelmendasi might have something to do with it..

    But the point is archaeologically a late Urnfield movement was crucial in Illyrian formation. And hence Illyrians were a younger Balkan group. proto-"Illyrian" language 3200 years ago was spoken in Central Europe not in the Balkans. Unless the language of pre Urnfield L283 Delmatae etc. is the precursor of modern Albanian.

    So J-L283/pre-Urnfield Illyrians and Urnfield almost certainly did not speak the same language.

    You might not be familiar with the archaeological evidence in Illyrian areas but trust me I am very familiar.

    There is no such thing as an Illyrian continuity from EBA/MBA to Antiquity. It does not exist. It was broken by the Urnfield movement and these people were clearly very culturally different from the indigenous population.
    While some Illyrians (perhaps northern ones) could have had R-U152, I very much doubt that this would've been among their main haplos. The modern R-U152 clades in NW Balkans could be as a result of different migrations, such as Celts, Romans, Germanics, etc. There is also a disagreement on how much the Urnfield Culture had an impact on the ethnogenesis of the Illyrians. For example, read this:

    "Rather, archaeologists from the former Yugoslavia highlighted the continuity between the Bronze and succeeding Iron Age (especially in regions such as Donja Dolina, central Bosnia-Glasinac, and northern Albania (Mat river basin)), ultimately developing the so-called "autochthonous theory" of Illyrian genesis.[14] The "autochthonous" model was most elaborated upon by Alojz Benac and B. Čović. They argued (following the "Kurgan hypothesis") that the 'proto-Illyrians' had arrived much earlier, during the Bronze Age as nomadic Indo-Europeans from the steppe. From that point, there was a gradual Illyrianization of the western Balkans leading to historic Illyrians, with no early Iron Age migration from northern Europe. He did not deny a minor cultural impact from the northern Urnfield cultures, however "these movements had neither a profound influence on the stability.. of the Balkans, nor did they affect the ethnogenesis of the Illyrian ethnos".[15]"
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrians#Origins


    Also, as pointed by markod, it is not known whether Illyrian was a Centum or a Satem language, or even if "all Illyrians" spoke the same language.

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    I would like to see some R-U152 clusters that are found only in the countries of Yugoslavia, and have no connection to Italians for 2000-3000 years. The eastern Adriatic coast had plenty of exchanges with the western one from the Romans onward, so without SNP-tested R-U152 clades exclusive to NW Balkans, it is difficult to choose between Illyrian, Celtic, Roman and Italian ancestry for these results. Let's remember that there has been a sizeable Italian speaking community in several towns from Dalmatia to Istria at least since the time of the Venetians. Only SNP testing can rule out some of these possibilities.

    As for E-V13, let's just keep in mind that clades that are present in both Albanians and Bulgarians aren't automatically Thracian as movements cannot have been one-directional. We have to look at the diversity of LBA and IE mutations. And again, only a few tests per clade are not enough. I don't see strongly Thracian or proto-/pre-/Thracian clusters in E-V13 as, for example, in R-Y5586.

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    I told you strait away that you are of Montenegrin origin, or most likely surroundings like South Serbia, Sanxhak etc.
    I mentioned Krajina only because of your Bosnian flag. Thinking that you are Bosnian Serb with Montenegrin vlacho albanian origin.
    Its impossible for me to know these things if i dont have magical crystal ball or if in fact i dont have a clue about various Balkan clades and inner complicated history.

    Montenegro, South Serbia, parts of Macedonia, are viciously known for assimilation of Albanians into Slavic mostly Serbian ethnos. Especially in the last 1000 years.
    So its not even relevant that your subclade E-v13>Z17107 is dominated within Albanians where you share TMRCA 2900 years with all of these masses of various Albanians.
    Its not even important few extraordinary Magyar or Russian or American samples samples that you managed to find somewhere.

    But how do you explain that there are also other smaller brother clades of Z17107 that are also found among Albanians and miracally assimilated Montenegrins again who happen to be neighbors from these places where Albanians assimilate into Serbo Montenegrin ethnos. Like BY4222 and Y84585.
    Do you understand that this kind of abnormal percentage of E-v13 among Montenegrins and Serbs is results of process of assimilation of Albanians in most recent time?
    Do you understand that other South Slavs like Slovenes who talk same language and have same R1a+I2a clades have only 3 % of E-v13 and all these clades are alien to them?
    Montenegrins and Serbs have them only because of recent process of assimilating Albanians and geographic proximity to them. As everyone knows. You can maybe tell stories to strangers but in Montenegro, Serbia, Kosovo and Albania everyone knows. Even wider.

    You are classic montenegricized Šiptar with classic Šiptar haplogroup lying here about your Tatar, Hunic, Avar, Russian, etc origins......


    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    I have laid out most that needs to be laid out. E-V13 is not Illyrian. Illyrians were assimilated and fully romanized. Illyrian language was Centum, Thracian was Satem, Albanian is Satem. A whole lot of romanized Illyrians got owned by a bunch of E-V13 and R1b heavy Bessi and had Thracian Bessian language imposed upon them. So Thracians > Illyrians I'm afraid.
    Albanians are best proof that Illyrians didnt get fully romanized, besides Illyrians, Thracians and Greeks for sure had good portion of E-v13 so thinking that E-v13 was Thracian but not Illyrian is very stupid to say at least.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    No E-V13 is ultimately of "Illyrian" ancestry and all of V13's bar few PH1246 stem from a Thracian territory 4000 ybp. The ancestor of CTS9320 also began spreading from Thracian territory 2900 years ago as part of a Thracian culture double digit IQ fake Albanian Demi boy.
    E-v13 is as i said connected with IE Bronze age expansion, at least major clades that seem to survive BY6550, Y30977, and CTS5856.
    Also it has great diversity and percentages here. It for sure belongs to paleo-balkan population that spread with Illyrians, Greeks, Italic tribes and others.
    Big majority of Serbian and Montenegrin but also Macedonian E-v13 is in fact recently in last 1000 years assimilated within Albanians. Your clade is here for sure included.
    I am maybe fake Albanian or maybe real one, but i let that to judge people from real life and not as it looks like internet morons like yourself. I thought that you are grown up man but seems im dealing with an half grown adult.



    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    The blood will tell.. I'm proud of my superior genetics:



    4d71bd543506dafca2bdd77f9ed060c8.jpg

    I am the most Steppe/Uralic shifted South Slav you are going to encounter. People have to cluster alot more to the North of me to match my autosomal basal R results (ofc Qun people were dominately R-Z93 and R-M73). And trust me I look like a Steppe maniac as well, so not your usual S.Slav, let alone Albanian..

    You look like.... Internet ***** and moron, if you haven't notice, spear us of all the superiority complexes.
    Besides your Huno Avar autosomal results dont have anything with your Montenegrin Šiptar Y-DNA.


    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    Sure, I posted my own analysis of Greek V13's the most comprehensive ever produced by anyone thus far, 100 % on topic and 100 % productive, yet Dema likely incapable of even comprehending what was said (double digit IQ etc.), got upset that I'm getting some love from Albanians (they posted my analysis on Albanian forum) he's not getting and like a spoiled child started going off topic so he could get some attention.
    I told you strait away good job on copy pasting clades from FTDNA projects, i was even polite. I was just critic over some name-tags and methods of knowing time of arrival and instead of explaining you started raging and behaving like abnormal person insulting my haplogroup, my look, me and everything. But i wont fall into that same level because simply i am higher than that. When you calm down maybe we can continue and then you can explain me why your theories have so many flaws in order to connect yourself to something that you are not. You are just roleplaying Avars and Mongols here because you happened to find one clade there while you ignore other much realistic facts.
    Last edited by Dema; 01-04-19 at 00:09.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    But how do you explain that there are also other smaller brother clades of Z17107 that are also found among Albanians and miracally assimilated Montenegrins again who happen to be neighbors from these places where Albanians assimilate into Serbo Montenegrin ethnos. Like BY4222 and Y84585.
    YF010339 under Y84585 is actually Albanian from Tirane. The other sample is the Selita tribe from Mirdite. It's beyond me why he places the Montenegrin flag on YFull lol. Under BY4222 is a Kelmendi fella who identifies as "Bosnian" there.

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