Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Page 15 of 17 FirstFirst ... 51314151617 LastLast
Results 351 to 375 of 412

Thread: E-V13 subclades in Greece

  1. #351
    King Achievements:
    Three Friends10000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Maleth's Avatar
    Join Date
    22-03-14
    Location
    Malta
    Posts
    1,920
    Points
    18,601
    Level
    41
    Points: 18,601, Level: 41
    Level completed: 62%, Points required for next Level: 349
    Overall activity: 2.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    EV13 A7136 y18675G+
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H

    Country: Malta



    This is not very logical in my opinion. How can it be physically possible for someone to travel from North Africa to Romania in that day and age? What would be the reason and why this path? Not credible in my opinion.....or maybe im missing something

    Last edited by Maleth; 03-04-19 at 18:00.

  2. #352
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience PointsThree Friends
    Nik's Avatar
    Join Date
    21-11-10
    Posts
    456
    Points
    5,528
    Level
    21
    Points: 5,528, Level: 21
    Level completed: 96%, Points required for next Level: 22
    Overall activity: 16.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-V13>CTS9320>Z38456

    Ethnic group
    Albanian
    Country: Switzerland



    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    If I didn't have a cousin in Karcag, Cumania, or in Pecenjevce near Leskovac (named after Pechenegs), or if there wasn't monastery of Kumanica in my own native area and some other traces, I wouldn't think of connecting my clade to Cumans.. Plus Bulgarians did invade my native area in 13th century.. Also my clan has two separate traditions about "having lots of horses" and that was weird to me always..
    When Hoti came first to its current location they found people who were very fond of horses and were even eating their meat (just like Sicilians, Sardinians, etc.). Also, the Albanian Stradioti of Venice were famous for almost living on horses eating very little themselves but taking better care of their horses and that they eventually rented them or sold them to rich Italian Condottieri due to their superior physical characteristics.

    I'm not opposing your Cuman origin because you brought many instances of Cuman related origin but just to add my 2 cents I would like to also remind you that many of the Steppe tribes absorbed other ethnicities like Goths, Dacians, Carpi, Sarmatians, Thracians, Illyrians, etc. so as you said yourself your line could be one of the those Free Dacians due to your Balkan connection from 900 BCE.

    Your supposed tribe would have absorbed so much Albanian-like admixture in Shop and even stronger one later in Montenegro, so are you sure your supposed Steppe looks come from your father and not your Bosniak mother. It is evident there's Turkish/Turkic admixture in some Albanian and Bosnian Ottoman families that could be spotted even nowadays and they're usually very old fashioned which makes it even more obvious. The Cherkez and Tatars of the Balkans are 1 example.

  3. #353
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Recommendation Second ClassThree FriendsVeteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    17-01-15
    Posts
    323
    Points
    5,749
    Level
    22
    Points: 5,749, Level: 22
    Level completed: 40%, Points required for next Level: 301
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J-L283

    Country: Albania



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    Why is Trojet so bent on proving L283 Steppe hypothesis, because it is considered "more prestigious" and why is Eurogenes so aggressive in opposing it? i think he always gets upset when some non-R gets involved there..
    I think you might have misunderstood me on this one. I never tried to "prove" or push for the theory that J-L283 came from the "Steppe", just that it's one of the likelihoods based on the archeogenetic finds. In fact, if you read the J-M241 thread on that other forum, you can see that initially I was in favor of the Neolithic entrance of J-L283 into Balkans/Europe. However, unlike some of you, when we got the J-L283* from LBA Armenia (Allentoft et al 2015), I quickly realized that in all likelihood it came during the Bronze Age considering its TMRCA.
    I think the jury is still out whether it came through a northern Black Sea route (Steppe) or a southern one (Caucasus > Anatolia/Mediterranean). What I took an issue with Mr. Eurogenes was his disinformation, where he was using the ancient J-M205 samples as an 'evidence' that J-L283 came from the Middle East/Levant, for which there is absolutely no evidence, and I'm glad I straightened him out :)
    Y-DNA: J-L283
    Maternal Y-DNA: E-V13

  4. #354
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Tagger Second Class1000 Experience Points1 year registeredThree Friends
    Dema's Avatar
    Join Date
    20-10-17
    Posts
    390
    Points
    3,435
    Level
    16
    Points: 3,435, Level: 16
    Level completed: 97%, Points required for next Level: 15
    Overall activity: 27.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J2-M205*

    Ethnic group
    Albanian
    Country: Albania



    This is true that Trojet was pushing Neolithic theory for long time of both E-v13 and J2-L283. Only after ancient Dalmatia J2-L283 analysis he changed his views and agreed with Steppe theory.
    Also wrote this article - https://j2-m172.info/2018/02/y-snp-a...on-et-al-2018/

    Which is frankly very realistic and with all the evidences within this ancient sample with other ones also its hard to conclude something else.

    Also its true that some people were for long time connecting migration paths and generally J2-L283 and J2-M205, including Maciamo.
    But i hope they realized that these two must have had completely different migration paths.

    However, as J2-M205 has Sidonian 1700 BCE ancient DNA and J2-L283 has 1600 BCE Dalmatian ancient DNA, they for sure had contact on Mediterranean sea long ago.
    However, at that time J2-M205 being of probably Proto-Canaanite, Phoenician origin while J2-L283 with Illyrian, Greek and Thracian one spread with Proto-IE.

    Furthermore Maciamo still makes mistake connecting J2-M205 with Iranians since its obvious that this group was spreading within Proto-Semitic>Canaanite groups.

    I mean i cant blame him to be honest, group is very small and not many people know about it. But by now its clear to everyone that there is not one single Iranian on Yfull, and to be honest i never seen J2-M205 Iranian in my life, even tho i dont say that there are no J2-M205 Iranians, but even if they are there, they are of Semitic and not of Iranian ancestry and this group is for sure almost none existent and irrelevant among Iranians.

  5. #355
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points
    Piro Ilir's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-04-15
    Posts
    1,136
    Points
    5,937
    Level
    22
    Points: 5,937, Level: 22
    Level completed: 78%, Points required for next Level: 113
    Overall activity: 0%






    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    I certainty agree, Greeks were for long time trying to assimilate Illyrians, and only these that would assimilate would stop being called barbarians.
    I will check into Stipcevic book later, he mentions few Greek tribes that are probably of Illyrian origin but i forgot since i read a book long ago.
    Unfortunately for most of the time it was the other way around. Were the Illyrians whom worked hard to be Hellenic. Mycenaean bronze age and later iron age Athenian civilization were really prestigious ones. Just look at the founding myth of the Dorians with the so called the return of Heracleidaes, and whether with the later founding myth of the Royal house of Macedon. Hence, all this Ev13 stuff it's too complicated. I still suggest for a bronze age spread with the Illyrians from northern Caspian along with J2b2 and Z2103.
    Ev13 in Balkans is extremely higher today compared with G2a. During Old Europe farmer civilization G2a was clearly dominant.
    The reason why we may find in iron age Tracian tombs the Ev13, it would be explained with the advance of Illyrian tribes. Tribali and Scordisci were originally Tracian and Celtic. Likewise the Dardani were probably of Tracian origin, later assimilated into Illyrian.
    These are my assumptions from what I did read from archeology, DNA and history.

  6. #356
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points
    Piro Ilir's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-04-15
    Posts
    1,136
    Points
    5,937
    Level
    22
    Points: 5,937, Level: 22
    Level completed: 78%, Points required for next Level: 113
    Overall activity: 0%






    Quote Originally Posted by Tutkun Arnaut View Post
    the Greeks had success with their assimilation techniques like theaters, sculpting and building with Macedonians and partially with Thracians. When the tried the same technique with Illyrians it did not work, since Illyrians functioned as tribes, they did not trust the foreigner, and started to harass the colonies of Greek cities making their life impossible. If Rome did not rise on time most of Italy would be Greece today.
    Well, the social structure of Spartans Epirots and Macedonians was a lot more tribalian rather than was the one in other Greeks.

  7. #357
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points
    Piro Ilir's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-04-15
    Posts
    1,136
    Points
    5,937
    Level
    22
    Points: 5,937, Level: 22
    Level completed: 78%, Points required for next Level: 113
    Overall activity: 0%






    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    You guys dont understand that this ancient Balkan E-L618 is from Neolithic, only one portion of his sons, where only one portion of E-v13 is included - 4800 years TMRCA one. They later joined with Proto-IE and spread in Bronze Age, practically wiping out most Neolithic groups, including his forefather L618 and partially none IE E-v13s. This was all talked about few pages back.

    Hence why L618* v13- does not exist anymore in living population except one survivor in Sardinia, also why E-v13 TMRCA was reduced from formed date 8100 years to 4800 years. Meaning they all died in Bronze Age expansion where this specific portion of E-v13 was also taking place. https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-L618/

    Hence why Paleolithic and Neolithic haplogorup I1 was reduced to exactly same TMRCA. Only these that survived BA expansion managed to survive and then expand again.

    Piro Ilir join foleja.net Albanian forum if you have more questions like that and have respect to Flor since he is doing large volunteer job running Albanian project and everything so your beginner questions are last things he should worry about but im sure they will all be answered or at least together analysed. I dont see what haplogroup G has anything with this discussion and why are you mentioning it.
    Haplogroup G2a was the dominant haplogroup in Vinca culture and surrounding cultures. Albanians have a lot of Ev13 , meanwhile have maximum 1% of G2a. Albanians or Illyrians brought the Ev13 with them from the Caspian steppe. They didn't absorbed it here in southeast Europe. If it was the case, then they would have a lot more G2a haplo

  8. #358
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Tagger Second Class1000 Experience Points1 year registeredThree Friends
    Dema's Avatar
    Join Date
    20-10-17
    Posts
    390
    Points
    3,435
    Level
    16
    Points: 3,435, Level: 16
    Level completed: 97%, Points required for next Level: 15
    Overall activity: 27.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J2-M205*

    Ethnic group
    Albanian
    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by Piro Ilir View Post
    Unfortunately for most of the time it was the other way around. Were the Illyrians whom worked hard to be Hellenic. Mycenaean bronze age and later iron age Athenian civilization were really prestigious ones. Just look at the founding myth of the Dorians with the so called the return of Heracleidaes, and whether with the later founding myth of the Royal house of Macedon.

    This is nonsense, even tho i dont want to undervalue Ancient Greek civilization, it was Greeks for centuries trying to assimilate Illyrians.
    Greeks have started with colonizing Illyrian territories pretty early on in history, around 630 BCE with founding Epidamnos that Romans later later renamed into Dyrrhachium.
    Then later around 580 BCE they also establish their Apollonia colony, which remains you can see from Pojanë manastir in South Albania.
    In 3th centrury BCE these colonies have lost their Hellenic cultural spirit. In fourth century BCE also they start with severe colonization of Illyrian lands, like isles Issu today Vis, and Pharos today Hvar in Croatia and so on.
    Greeks and Illyrians share history of plenty of wars and hatred in between them, until they both dont get finally fully conquered by Romans.

    But of course, in between all these wars, violence, colonization and so on, there is always trading and social interactions. Even friendship.

  9. #359
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points
    Piro Ilir's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-04-15
    Posts
    1,136
    Points
    5,937
    Level
    22
    Points: 5,937, Level: 22
    Level completed: 78%, Points required for next Level: 113
    Overall activity: 0%






    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Leka View Post
    V13 has nothing to do with Steppe nomads. They obviously picked it up once they entered Europe, specifically the Balkans. That much is evident going by aDNA.
    If I'm not wrong, I remember that Ev13 was found in iron age Scythians in Caspian steppe. Ev13 might have crossed Caucasus along with J2b2 from the middle east during Neolithic, as cattle or goat herders. E1b1 north African tribes are recorded as nomadic goat herders

  10. #360
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    09-01-17
    Posts
    180
    Points
    2,746
    Level
    14
    Points: 2,746, Level: 14
    Level completed: 99%, Points required for next Level: 4
    Overall activity: 4.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J1-P58
    MtDNA haplogroup
    T1a1l

    Ethnic group
    Gheg Albanian-Kelmendi clan(Joined) but with supposed origin from Montenegro
    Country: United Kingdom



    Quote Originally Posted by Piro Ilir View Post
    If I'm not wrong, I remember that Ev13 was found in iron age Scythians in Caspian steppe. Ev13 might have crossed Caucasus along with J2b2 from the middle east during Neolithic, as cattle or goat herders. E1b1 north African tribes are recorded as nomadic goat herders
    That Scythian sample was from Glinoe, Moldova. Autosomally it was very similar to Albanians and Greeks and not other western Scythian samples. This tells us that he was likely not an Iranic-speaking Scythian but rather just a native who lived in Moldova, possibly Dacian. I think it's unlikely that E-V13 crossed through the Caucasus. The most likely scenario is that certain clades, such as CTS5856, got absorbed by PIE speakers somewhere in central or eastern Europe and then dispersed with them.
    Ydna: J-ZS241

    mtDNA: T1a1l

    Maternal Ydna: E-V13>CTS5856*

  11. #361
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    09-01-17
    Posts
    180
    Points
    2,746
    Level
    14
    Points: 2,746, Level: 14
    Level completed: 99%, Points required for next Level: 4
    Overall activity: 4.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J1-P58
    MtDNA haplogroup
    T1a1l

    Ethnic group
    Gheg Albanian-Kelmendi clan(Joined) but with supposed origin from Montenegro
    Country: United Kingdom



    Quote Originally Posted by Piro Ilir View Post
    Haplogroup G2a was the dominant haplogroup in Vinca culture and surrounding cultures. Albanians have a lot of Ev13 , meanwhile have maximum 1% of G2a. Albanians or Illyrians brought the Ev13 with them from the Caspian steppe. They didn't absorbed it here in southeast Europe. If it was the case, then they would have a lot more G2a haplo
    Unlikely that Illyric speakers or Proto-Albanian speakers are the reason for the spread of E-V13 into the Balkans. Only a few groups of V13 can be linked to PIE expansion, CTS5856 is the main one. However, CTS5856 seems to have an origin in SE Europe or somewhere nearby going by current data. So we can assume that it didn't necessarily expand from the Pontic-Caspian steppe but rather that it got absorbed somewhere close by and then dispersed. Many V13 groups in the Balkans certainly pre-date the Illyric formation and are the result of earlier migration. V13 itself though expanded from the Balkans originally.

    It is also very likely that the Illyrians themselves just developed from local Balkan IE cultures that migrated during the Bronze Age, and so they weren't a separate group that migrated directly from the steppe. Same goes for Albanians, who likely stem from an Illyric speaking population.

    The part about if E-V13 got absorbed in the Balkans then G2a would be higher is incorrect. Y-DNA frequencies can fluctuate pretty easily, this can be due to the lack of male offspring as well as war and disease. This is especially the case when it comes to the Bronze Age, which saw the expansion of a pretty war-like people that studies show carried diseases that local farmers weren't immune to. G2a declined all-over Europe after the Neolithic. And so a certain haplogroup can replace another pretty easily.

  12. #362
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Tagger Second Class1000 Experience Points1 year registeredThree Friends
    Dema's Avatar
    Join Date
    20-10-17
    Posts
    390
    Points
    3,435
    Level
    16
    Points: 3,435, Level: 16
    Level completed: 97%, Points required for next Level: 15
    Overall activity: 27.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J2-M205*

    Ethnic group
    Albanian
    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by Piro Ilir View Post
    . Albanians or Illyrians brought the Ev13 with them from the Caspian steppe. They didn't absorbed it here in southeast Europe. If it was the case, then they would have a lot more G2a haplo

    Listen, stop spamming and quoting me. It was not Albanians neither Illyrians spread with proto-IE cultures but Indo-Europeans themselves.
    Illyrians, Celts, Greeks, Dacians, Thracians are just groups that developed later out of these Indo-Europeans.
    Indo-European Bronze Age invasion must have been from 2500 to 1500 BCE, later they must have started to form into these Paleo-European but also Paleo-Balkan populations you are mentioning.
    G2a is Neolithic Caucasus migrant that probably picked up agriculture somewhere in Levant and spread it to Anatolia and rest of Neolithic Europe.

  13. #363
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points
    Piro Ilir's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-04-15
    Posts
    1,136
    Points
    5,937
    Level
    22
    Points: 5,937, Level: 22
    Level completed: 78%, Points required for next Level: 113
    Overall activity: 0%






    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    Yes, Avars and Cumans in imagination, while you are still closer to Macedonian Albanians, Kosovo Albanian, Greeks, Italians and plenty of Albania Albanians while none of these exotic people are not connected to you.
    So not only your clade A24048 is completley Balkan but also its brother clade is completely Albanian. and your entire main clade Z17107 has multiple Balkan Iron Age splits. Puro Illyrian, or if you rather wish Montenegrin Šiptar line.

    You can insult me, i cant be mad at my fellow Albanian

    But still, if you manage to prove your fairy-tales ill pay you one portion of Avar meat and beer!! I think that is fair offer!
    This guy remembers me the defensive attorneys at the court room, trying to spread nebulosity when they see that their cause is lost.
    He mentioned earlier that Albanians descent from Bessi tribe, and soon after he claims Albanians descent from Carpi of Dacia.
    Just to pinpoint; Romanians are mainly in origin , romanized Illyrians. They strongly reject this due to political reasons. We should admits this. It's their right after all.
    A big amount of Illyrian population was settled along Danubian basin and in some towns of Dacia during the Roman empire, mostly after the edict of Caracalla, 212 ad. This was the beginning of Romanian language.

  14. #364
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Tagger Second Class1000 Experience Points1 year registeredThree Friends
    Dema's Avatar
    Join Date
    20-10-17
    Posts
    390
    Points
    3,435
    Level
    16
    Points: 3,435, Level: 16
    Level completed: 97%, Points required for next Level: 15
    Overall activity: 27.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J2-M205*

    Ethnic group
    Albanian
    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by Piro Ilir View Post
    This guy remembers me the defensive attorneys at the court room, trying to spread nebulosity when they see that their cause is lost.
    He mentioned earlier that Albanians descent from Bessi tribe, and soon after he claims Albanians descent from Carpi of Dacia.
    Just to pinpoint; Romanians are mainly in origin , romanized Illyrians. They strongly reject this due to political reasons. We should admits this. It's their right after all.
    A big amount of Illyrian population was settled along Danubian basin and in some towns of Dacia during the Roman empire, mostly after the edict of Caracalla, 212 ad. This was the beginning of Romanian language.
    Why are you continuing to quote me and post nonsense here? I would say nothing if your posts would be reasonable but you are way behind in knowledge and i suggest reading rather then posting is a good option.

    But since you said it.. By linguists, Aromun/Vlach language split from Romanian in 10 century CE, they still can very well understand each other. Therefore we can assume that modern Romanian is from 10 century CE. Albanian is also heavy Latinized but resisted total Latinization when its core in fact remained of Paleo-Balkan Illyrian origin together with lots of words. But even in modern Albanian there is plenty of words with Latin, Slavic, Tukic, Germanic and so on origins.

    Furthermore regarding genetics, Romanians are mix of mostly Paleo-Balkan populations but also with huge amount of direct Slavic lines. I believe that they viciously resisted Slavicization even in recent history.
    But when observing their genetics, one great portion of their direct paternal lines is in fact Slavic in origin. So they are like mix of Balkan post Roman Latinized remains including Illyrians Thracians Dacians and Greeks with nice amount of later arriving Slavic Y-DNA lines. And of course plenty of smaller one.

  15. #365
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    04-03-18
    Posts
    265
    Points
    2,696
    Level
    14
    Points: 2,696, Level: 14
    Level completed: 82%, Points required for next Level: 54
    Overall activity: 23.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-Z17107>A24048
    MtDNA haplogroup
    I1a1a

    Ethnic group
    Qun, Ermi
    Country: Bosnia & Herzegovina



    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    There is almost no mathematical chance that your subclade was brought here in 13 century by Bulgarians because you have Greek, Bulgarian, Italian, also Albanian relatives
    April 3rd, 2019

    The court of the Count of Vrhbosna, fortress Hodidid.
    Until the restoration of the fortress Hodidid (sometimes erroneously called Hodidjed), the court is convened at another location.

    The court is in session.

    Case 1

    Subject: Denial of genetic link between E5882, YF18711 and all other haplotypes posted under the E-24048 tree in the message #322 in the theme "E-V13 subclades in Greece" on the forum eupedia.


    accuser: Aspurg, maternally paternal descendant of commanders of the fortress Hodidid, claimant of direct paternal descent from Greater Cumania, autonomous entity of the Kingdom of Hungary, modern day Hungary.


    defendant: Dema and others


    Hearing


    Court expert Zor is to present the evidence before the court


    Cousins under Z38456>BY4461 irrelevant as they are 2900 years away and they had their own separate migratory paths, independent of A24048.

    YFiler STR's of the accuser and a Bulgarian
    13 24 13 10 17-17 13 13 11 29 16 14 20 11 17 11 22
    13 24 13 10 16-17 13 13 11 29 16 14 20 12 17 11 22


    Comments:
    15/17 GD,
    sharing dys439=13 modal for V13 dys439=12. Commonality of dys439=13 in E-V13 98/625 15.68 %
    sharing dys389b=16 modal for V13 dys389b=17. Commonality of dys389b=16 in E-V13 23/625 3.62 %
    sharing dys438=11 (modal for V13 dys438=10. Commonality of dys438=11 in E-V13: 11/618 1.77 %
    sharing dys385b=17 (shared by all Balkan similar haplotypes -> indication bottleneck effect)
    not sharing GATAH4=12 (GATAH4=12 modal for Z17107>Y30991 indicating Bulgarian is certainly Y30991+, Bulgarian SNP confirmed V13+)




    Cluj Ru281
    14 24 13 10 16-18 13 13 11 29 18 14 20 12 18 11 22 , SNP confirmed V13+


    Karcag E5882 at YFiler STR's
    13 24 13 10 16-19 13 13 11 29 16 14 20 12 18 11 21


    Additionally sharing with E5882 dys587=19 (E-V13 modal dys587=18), Commonality of dys587=19 in E-V13: 9/203 4.4 %


    Determining chances of these haplotypes sharing these crucial 4 mutations randomly:
    15.68 % x 3.62 % x 1.77 % x 4.43 % = 0.000445 %


    Determining chances of said 4 mutations not being random: 99.999555 %.

    Evident by their sharing dys385b=17, and determination that Northern hapotypes have the usual V13 value of 16-18 (one has an additional private mutation at dys385b) and their general closeness Balkan haplotypes form a bottleneck effect. Arrival to the Shop from the North is indicated.

    Hearing completed.

    Verdict:
    It is thereby confirmed that the E5882, YF18711 and all other haplotypes posted in the message #322 in the theme "E-V13 subclades in Greece" are certainly related and form a clade sharing various SNP's at the E-24048 level.
    The Balkan haplotypes also form a bottleneck, they arrived to the Shop from the North, Kunsag-Cluj area..


    The court has determined that the defendant(s) are guilty as charged, and orders the defendant(s) to immediately accept the said Genetic Y-DNA relation that has been determined. It also orders them to accept that the migratory path for EA24048 is as follows: Bijelo Polje <- Shop area <- Karcag/Cluj.. The denial of this genetic link is thereby forbidden.


    Effect: immediate


    Right of Appeal:
    none

    Case 1 closed.


  16. #366
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    04-03-18
    Posts
    265
    Points
    2,696
    Level
    14
    Points: 2,696, Level: 14
    Level completed: 82%, Points required for next Level: 54
    Overall activity: 23.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-Z17107>A24048
    MtDNA haplogroup
    I1a1a

    Ethnic group
    Qun, Ermi
    Country: Bosnia & Herzegovina



    Quote Originally Posted by Leka View Post
    Not really, you were predicting them to be a lot further upstream. Hence also why you were pushing the eastern origin for the whole group. The Bessi theory is still popular over there among some of your buddies


    The Greek fella along with those samples (including more than few Albanians sharing those mutations) are just Z2705* (x Y32147, Y33199), so nothing special. We actually got another one of those samples from Vlore today, Laberia region. We have more than dozen of 393=13 & 392=13 haplos that are in similar position, from across Albania (SNP confirmed).

    Yes i excepted that but it turned out not to be true. I could aactually see that because as I collected 27 STR's from several studies for this haplotype it looked similar to the others so I said to the Serb dys392=12 guy, you separation was likely 1400 ybp..


    But wait, hasn't Trojet identified an SNP which marks the transition into dys393=13? Greek has 12, so he still must be one step above..




    Quote Originally Posted by Leka View Post
    Takes generations and even centuries for such an expansion to occur. So late Bronze Age and Iron age me thinks is when they started wondering around... I am also lately, in light of all the new evidence, thinking that it was probably Rome that really helped on the distribution we see today (by displacing Thracian, Illyrian, Macedonian and even perhaps Greek tribes).

    I agree that Romans played a part, including their Legions etc. So generally I would attribute largely Western V13 to that, Eastern though are something else (no Rome there), part was Greek colonies but the other part also Thraco-Cimmerians.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ernekar View Post
    Eurogenes is another matter. His motive is to create a narrative where only R1a men were responsible for PIE.
    In his dreams, R1a corded ware IEanized the central european R1b-rich groups. Those IEanized R1b groups would then spread italo-celtic. The R1b's who got to Iberia before they were IEanized by R1a were speaking their original languages like basque and iberian.
    So in this regard you are right, for eurogenes it is a competition where he at all cost must keep the genepool of proto-indo-europeans as R1a-dominated as possible, and as J2-free as possible. Now even R1b is being pushed out from his dreamy PIE-land, as he is arguing that basques also came from the steppe with IEans. Hmm, i wonder if its R1a or R1b steppe groups he will place proto-basque in? ;)

    I had no idea he denies the IE-ness of R1b.:) Interesting..


    Quote Originally Posted by Ernekar View Post
    And he will also manipulate to get people to share his views. For example look how he tried to create confusion regarding J2b-L283 in his blog. It is a sign of desperation. Because he knows that the truth about steppe-mediated J2b-L283 is very likely soon to become fact, and it would destroy what he has been advocating for years; that the steppe languages could not have been influenced from the south, because there is no Y-dna coming into the steppe from the south. J2b-L283, some specific lineages of J2a, and even some E-V13(europe-->steppe) are the lineages which are going to prove that the steppe was indeed penetrated from both entrances, several times. It was not an impenetrable barrier as he thinks.


    You should not follow the example of such a deceitful person as Eurogenes. Besides, anyone who has to much free time to create fake data and advocate lies on IE matters, is either working in a trol-factory for an intelligence company, or is a obsessed conspiracy nut living on wellfare checks.

    Well I am opposed to emotional "haplogroupist" arguments. Him connecting L283 with M205 was totally inappropriate.
    Still he's knowledgeable in these matters, and has contributed in many ways.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ernekar View Post
    And in the end, there i no need for any of us to "protect" E-V13, everyone knows it is one of the most succesful and strong haplogroups alive today. The balkans has been a target for migrations, invasion, plagues and expanding empires through all history and prehistory, so every lineage that has been strong enough to get a foothold and high frequency there is special. So kudos to R1b-Z2103, R1b-PF7563, E1b-V13, J2b-L283, J2b-M205, J2a-M410 and I2a-Din for being able to get where they are today.
    I agree.

  17. #367
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points
    Piro Ilir's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-04-15
    Posts
    1,136
    Points
    5,937
    Level
    22
    Points: 5,937, Level: 22
    Level completed: 78%, Points required for next Level: 113
    Overall activity: 0%






    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    This is nonsense, even tho i dont want to undervalue Ancient Greek civilization, it was Greeks for centuries trying to assimilate Illyrians.
    Greeks have started with colonizing Illyrian territories pretty early on in history, around 630 BCE with founding Epidamnos that Romans later later renamed into Dyrrhachium.
    Then later around 580 BCE they also establish their Apollonia colony, which remains you can see from Pojanë manastir in South Albania.
    In 3th centrury BCE these colonies have lost their Hellenic cultural spirit. In fourth century BCE also they start with severe colonization of Illyrian lands, like isles Issu today Vis, and Pharos today Hvar in Croatia and so on.
    Greeks and Illyrians share history of plenty of wars and hatred in between them, until they both dont get finally fully conquered by Romans.

    But of course, in between all these wars, violence, colonization and so on, there is always trading and social interactions. Even friendship.
    I don't want to go deeper with this because it's a bit off topic. Anyway, it's worth mentioning that Illyrians never did and never even tried to have their own writing , neither some distinct culture. Their coins were written in Hellenic. They adopted in their fortified settlements the Hellenic way of construction. The administration of kingdoms was akin to their Hellenic contemporaries.
    This is what Albanians are even today. Seems that time has stopped for them.

  18. #368
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    04-03-18
    Posts
    265
    Points
    2,696
    Level
    14
    Points: 2,696, Level: 14
    Level completed: 82%, Points required for next Level: 54
    Overall activity: 23.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-Z17107>A24048
    MtDNA haplogroup
    I1a1a

    Ethnic group
    Qun, Ermi
    Country: Bosnia & Herzegovina



    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    I think you might have misunderstood me on this one. I never tried to "prove" or push for the theory that J-L283 came from the "Steppe", just that it's one of the likelihoods based on the archeogenetic finds. In fact, if you read the J-M241 thread on that other forum, you can see that initially I was in favor of the Neolithic entrance of J-L283 into Balkans/Europe. However, unlike some of you, when we got the J-L283* from LBA Armenia (Allentoft et al 2015), I quickly realized that in all likelihood it came during the Bronze Age considering its TMRCA.
    I think the jury is still out whether it came through a northern Black Sea route (Steppe) or a southern one (Caucasus > Anatolia/Mediterranean). What I took an issue with Mr. Eurogenes was his disinformation, where he was using the ancient J-M205 samples as an 'evidence' that J-L283 came from the Middle East/Levant, for which there is absolutely no evidence, and I'm glad I straightened him out :)

    Yes it was very inappropriate of him to bring the J-M205 into this. About the Armenian, I paid no attention to him a year ago, when someone asked me about Armenian at poreklo, I thought he was refering to Georgian J-L283 of Armenian descend that I know of.


    I think ofc Steppe expansion is fully at the table and functional atm, unless someone can prove some Kura-Araxes expansion to Sardinia first. But there is no J-L283 in pre-Nuragic Sardinia, however considering that is is one of few new hg's found in Nuragic Sardinia Sardinian J-L283 must be considered as quite likely proto-Nuragic (whatever that may mean, and I'm not sure atm) that is they were in significant way responsible for the advent of Nuragic culture.


    About your earlier comment about R-U152 and Urnfield, that is debatable and yes likely this impact was not as great. Some of those exist in Albania, and that one found seems Illyrian indeed:
    U152>L2>FGC13617 of Serb admin, but also found in one Ghegh and Tosk in Arberesh study (also a Greek from Kerkyra). A completely isolated clade, must be Urnfield Illyrian.The Greek could be Souliote.


    U152>L2>Y4353 clade found in a Vlach Ugarak clan of East Herzegovina. My maternal family by tradition and documentary facts, descends of Hodidjed commanders from 15th century. There is a documentary link between them and chief local nobility of Vrhbosna which was Bogčin Ugarčić so it's very likely I'm (maternally) of that clade. Around 1391 this family was given the land in Vrhbosna by the King, and most authors say they came from Travunia. Also by family tradition there is Herzegovina variant of origin (as is Bosnian). Also likely these are separate from the Vlach clan because there were some non-Vlach Ugarčić mentioned, but everywhere where Ugar/Ugarak traces were found thus far it's always this clade, so I have little doubt that I can have it confirmed.
    This family of Ugarčić were first known muslims from Bosnia, because the Ottomans captured Sarajevo area in 1448, 15 years before they ended the Bosnian Kingdom.

    This clade should be Illyrian, possibly Ardieian, it can only be connected with Urnfield Illyrians. Yet distant haplotypes of Y4353 exist also in Bulgaria, Romania but also in Greece! In fact when they found the higher % of R1b in Crete, by the STR's I saw it was this clade! And some connected this to Dorians. Also it exist in Greeks from Asia minor or Cyprus.


    Few connected Ugarak with Hungary/Transylvania (Ugar can be viewed Hungarian too) but these in Bulgaria and Romania look distant to Herzegovina.. So i'm not 100 % sure but this clade could be also the real Illyrian-Dorian connection (the only other is Celtic). Btw one other Vlach clan of this clade is "Zotovic" and all connected their "Zot" to Albanian word, albeit this clade does not exist in Albanians so it's very weird.. Was "Zot" an Illyrian word? That's very hard to prove.

  19. #369
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience PointsThree Friends
    Nik's Avatar
    Join Date
    21-11-10
    Posts
    456
    Points
    5,528
    Level
    21
    Points: 5,528, Level: 21
    Level completed: 96%, Points required for next Level: 22
    Overall activity: 16.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-V13>CTS9320>Z38456

    Ethnic group
    Albanian
    Country: Switzerland



    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    Btw one other Vlach clan of this clade is "Zotovic" and all connected their "Zot" to Albanian word, albeit this clade does not exist in Albanians so it's very weird.. Was "Zot" an Illyrian word? That's very hard to prove.
    Very likely to be Illyrian. Note the Greek and Latin versions of Zeus, Deus, Dias, Dios, as well as the fact that in the word Zot the 'o' is a long one, and very often what's written as 'o' is actually pronounced as a nasal 'eu' or 'ue'.

    A funny example of this is a viral video where a Gheg cameraman says "mos prek me dor" but obviously everyone hears "mos prek me deeeurr" meaning "don't touch me" (dora means hand).

    Another one is the dialectal version of the name Anton/Andon being transformed into 'Ndue/Nue/Nua/Noi/Noja.

  20. #370
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    15-12-17
    Posts
    121
    Points
    1,455
    Level
    10
    Points: 1,455, Level: 10
    Level completed: 53%, Points required for next Level: 95
    Overall activity: 29.0%


    Country: Germany - Bayern



    edt........
    Last edited by Ernekar; 04-04-19 at 02:28.

  21. #371
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Tagger Second Class1000 Experience Points1 year registeredThree Friends
    Dema's Avatar
    Join Date
    20-10-17
    Posts
    390
    Points
    3,435
    Level
    16
    Points: 3,435, Level: 16
    Level completed: 97%, Points required for next Level: 15
    Overall activity: 27.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J2-M205*

    Ethnic group
    Albanian
    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    April 3rd, 2019

    The court of the Count of Vrhbosna, fortress Hodidid.
    Until the restoration of the fortress Hodidid (sometimes erroneously called Hodidjed), the court is convened at another location.

    The court is in session.

    Case 1

    Subject: Denial of genetic link between E5882, YF18711 and all other haplotypes posted under the E-24048 tree in the message #322 in the theme "E-V13 subclades in Greece" on the forum eupedia.


    accuser: Aspurg, maternally paternal descendant of commanders of the fortress Hodidid, claimant of direct paternal descent from Greater Cumania, autonomous entity of the Kingdom of Hungary, modern day Hungary.


    defendant: Dema and others


    Hearing


    Court expert Zor is to present the evidence before the court


    Cousins under Z38456>BY4461 irrelevant as they are 2900 years away and they had their own separate migratory paths, independent of A24048.

    YFiler STR's of the accuser and a Bulgarian
    13 24 13 10 17-17 13 13 11 29 16 14 20 11 17 11 22
    13 24 13 10 16-17 13 13 11 29 16 14 20 12 17 11 22


    Comments:
    15/17 GD,
    sharing dys439=13 modal for V13 dys439=12. Commonality of dys439=13 in E-V13 98/625 15.68 %
    sharing dys389b=16 modal for V13 dys389b=17. Commonality of dys389b=16 in E-V13 23/625 3.62 %
    sharing dys438=11 (modal for V13 dys438=10. Commonality of dys438=11 in E-V13: 11/618 1.77 %
    sharing dys385b=17 (shared by all Balkan similar haplotypes -> indication bottleneck effect)
    not sharing GATAH4=12 (GATAH4=12 modal for Z17107>Y30991 indicating Bulgarian is certainly Y30991+, Bulgarian SNP confirmed V13+)




    Cluj Ru281
    14 24 13 10 16-18 13 13 11 29 18 14 20 12 18 11 22 , SNP confirmed V13+


    Karcag E5882 at YFiler STR's
    13 24 13 10 16-19 13 13 11 29 16 14 20 12 18 11 21


    Additionally sharing with E5882 dys587=19 (E-V13 modal dys587=18), Commonality of dys587=19 in E-V13: 9/203 4.4 %


    Determining chances of these haplotypes sharing these crucial 4 mutations randomly:
    15.68 % x 3.62 % x 1.77 % x 4.43 % = 0.000445 %


    Determining chances of said 4 mutations not being random: 99.999555 %.

    Evident by their sharing dys385b=17, and determination that Northern hapotypes have the usual V13 value of 16-18 (one has an additional private mutation at dys385b) and their general closeness Balkan haplotypes form a bottleneck effect. Arrival to the Shop from the North is indicated.

    Hearing completed.

    Verdict:
    It is thereby confirmed that the E5882, YF18711 and all other haplotypes posted in the message #322 in the theme "E-V13 subclades in Greece" are certainly related and form a clade sharing various SNP's at the E-24048 level.
    The Balkan haplotypes also form a bottleneck, they arrived to the Shop from the North, Kunsag-Cluj area..


    The court has determined that the defendant(s) are guilty as charged, and orders the defendant(s) to immediately accept the said Genetic Y-DNA relation that has been determined. It also orders them to accept that the migratory path for EA24048 is as follows: Bijelo Polje <- Shop area <- Karcag/Cluj.. The denial of this genetic link is thereby forbidden.


    Effect: immediate


    Right of Appeal:
    none

    Case 1 closed.


    You are still holding for some 17 STRs hypothetical matches... Its funny to me you are holding for hypothetical 17 STRs matches even after doing bigY-700 test + Yfull upload.

    Bulgarian match proves nothing since you have no idea when you split from him and second to that they are Balkan nation so nothing out of ordinary.

    Cluj and Karcag matches are ridiculous to even take into consideration. I mean you can tomorrow find in China similar 17 STRs haplotype, will you then claim they originate in China?

    These matches are highly speculative and i see that even they in between them have some multicopy STR differences therefore all assumptions are just meaningless speculations on 17 markers that we generally know in haplogroups like E-v13 should be avoided.

    You have still 0 proof that you are closer to Cluj or Karcag samples then any of your Serb, Montenegrin, Albanian, Italian, Sweedish, Greek, and so on samples.

  22. #372
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Recommendation Second ClassThree FriendsVeteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    17-01-15
    Posts
    323
    Points
    5,749
    Level
    22
    Points: 5,749, Level: 22
    Level completed: 40%, Points required for next Level: 301
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J-L283

    Country: Albania



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    April 3rd, 2019
    The court of the Count of Vrhbosna, fortress Hodidid.
    Until the restoration of the fortress Hodidid (sometimes erroneously called Hodidjed), the court is convened at another location.
    The court is in session.
    Case 1
    Subject: Denial of genetic link between E5882, YF18711 and all other haplotypes posted under the E-24048 tree in the message #322 in the theme "E-V13 subclades in Greece" on the forum eupedia.
    accuser: Aspurg, maternally paternal descendant of commanders of the fortress Hodidid, claimant of direct paternal descent from Greater Cumania, autonomous entity of the Kingdom of Hungary, modern day Hungary.
    defendant: Dema and others
    Hearing
    Court expert Zor is to present the evidence before the court

    Cousins under Z38456>BY4461 irrelevant as they are 2900 years away and they had their own separate migratory paths, independent of A24048.
    YFiler STR's of the accuser and a Bulgarian
    13 24 13 10 17-17 13 13 11 29 16 14 20 11 17 11 22
    13 24 13 10 16-17 13 13 11 29 16 14 20 12 17 11 22
    Comments:
    15/17 GD,
    sharing dys439=13 modal for V13 dys439=12. Commonality of dys439=13 in E-V13 98/625 15.68 %
    sharing dys389b=16 modal for V13 dys389b=17. Commonality of dys389b=16 in E-V13 23/625 3.62 %
    sharing dys438=11 (modal for V13 dys438=10. Commonality of dys438=11 in E-V13: 11/618 1.77 %
    sharing dys385b=17 (shared by all Balkan similar haplotypes -> indication bottleneck effect)
    not sharing GATAH4=12 (GATAH4=12 modal for Z17107>Y30991 indicating Bulgarian is certainly Y30991+, Bulgarian SNP confirmed V13+)
    Cluj Ru281
    14 24 13 10 16-18 13 13 11 29 18 14 20 12 18 11 22 , SNP confirmed V13+
    Karcag E5882 at YFiler STR's
    13 24 13 10 16-19 13 13 11 29 16 14 20 12 18 11 21
    Additionally sharing with E5882 dys587=19 (E-V13 modal dys587=18), Commonality of dys587=19 in E-V13: 9/203 4.4 %
    Determining chances of these haplotypes sharing these crucial 4 mutations randomly:
    15.68 % x 3.62 % x 1.77 % x 4.43 % = 0.000445 %
    Determining chances of said 4 mutations not being random: 99.999555 %.
    Evident by their sharing dys385b=17, and determination that Northern hapotypes have the usual V13 value of 16-18 (one has an additional private mutation at dys385b) and their general closeness Balkan haplotypes form a bottleneck effect. Arrival to the Shop from the North is indicated.
    Hearing completed.
    Verdict:
    It is thereby confirmed that the E5882, YF18711 and all other haplotypes posted in the message #322 in the theme "E-V13 subclades in Greece" are certainly related and form a clade sharing various SNP's at the E-24048 level.
    The Balkan haplotypes also form a bottleneck, they arrived to the Shop from the North, Kunsag-Cluj area..
    The court has determined that the defendant(s) are guilty as charged, and orders the defendant(s) to immediately accept the said Genetic Y-DNA relation that has been determined. It also orders them to accept that the migratory path for EA24048 is as follows: Bijelo Polje <- Shop area <- Karcag/Cluj.. The denial of this genetic link is thereby forbidden.
    Effect: immediate
    Right of Appeal:
    none
    Case 1 closed.
    We just got our very first Albanian from southern Albania with some of those off modals ;), including DYS389II=29, DYS458=16, DYS447=25, GATAH4=12. This haplotype is consistent with E-CTS9320. As you know, the GATAH4=12 is a good predictor for Z17107+, and since he doesn't have the DYS458=17 or greater, odds are he is some Z17107+ and BY4461- ;)

  23. #373
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    04-03-18
    Posts
    265
    Points
    2,696
    Level
    14
    Points: 2,696, Level: 14
    Level completed: 82%, Points required for next Level: 54
    Overall activity: 23.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-Z17107>A24048
    MtDNA haplogroup
    I1a1a

    Ethnic group
    Qun, Ermi
    Country: Bosnia & Herzegovina



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    We just got our very first Albanian from southern Albania with many of the same off modals ;), including DYS389II=29, DYS447=25, GATAH4=12. As you know, this last one is a very good predictor for Z17107+, and since he doesn't have the DYS458=17 or greater, odds are he is Z17107+ and BY4461-
    Interesting, any specific area? 447=25 is modal for CTS9320, I've noticed some haplotypes with dys390=25, dys389II=29 but they had GATAH4=11 mostly. Still regarding GATAH4=12, there is proof that for my clade it has gone up and down few times, because a likely related haplotype that is little more distant has 11 there. Still for my clade anybody who doesn't have dys438=11 + etc. cannot be close to me. Karcag guy is certainly related to me and 1800 ybp with him might be easily optimistic..

    In any case you are now becoming "very" tested, which is a good thing. But let's see what happens with more Romanian or Bulgarian deeper tests.. Because it can not be tolerated that Daco-Thracians are pronounced as "Illyrians" as some might try to do.. Those were not same and it's not right to make any mistakes there just for some necessity to have all people descending of "Illyrians"..

    @ Dema seriously are you mentally impaired? For how many times do I have to say
    Karcag E5882 = 111 STR's. not 17, and most have 23.

  24. #374
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Recommendation Second ClassThree FriendsVeteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    17-01-15
    Posts
    323
    Points
    5,749
    Level
    22
    Points: 5,749, Level: 22
    Level completed: 40%, Points required for next Level: 301
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J-L283

    Country: Albania



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    Interesting, any specific area? 447=25 is modal for CTS9320, I've noticed some haplotypes with dys390=25, dys389II=29 but they had GATAH4=11 mostly. Still regarding GATAH4=12, there is proof that for my clade it has gone up and down few times, because a likely related haplotype that is little more distant has 11 there. Still for my clade anybody who doesn't have dys438=11 + etc. cannot be close to me. Karcag guy is certainly related to me and 1800 ybp with him might be easily optimistic..
    In any case you are now becoming "very" tested, which is a good thing. But let's see what happens with more Romanian or Bulgarian deeper tests.. Because it can not be tolerated that Daco-Thracians are pronounced as "Illyrians" as some might try to do.. Those were not same and it's not right to make any mistakes there just for some necessity to have all people descending of "Illyrians"..
    @ Dema seriously are you mentally impaired? For how many times do I have to say
    Karcag E5882 = 111 STR's. not 17, and most have 23.
    He doesn't have the DYS438=11 or DYS439=13. Otherwise, the rest of his STRs are fairly modal. Anyways, we hope to confirm his positioning with SNP testing, as he could be any other E-CTS9320 that has mutated from GATAH4=11 to 12.

    And I agree with you that we're probably becoming the most deeply tested nation in the Balkans ;)

  25. #375
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Tagger Second Class1000 Experience Points1 year registeredThree Friends
    Dema's Avatar
    Join Date
    20-10-17
    Posts
    390
    Points
    3,435
    Level
    16
    Points: 3,435, Level: 16
    Level completed: 97%, Points required for next Level: 15
    Overall activity: 27.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J2-M205*

    Ethnic group
    Albanian
    Country: Albania



    Aspurg what is your ID number, are you tested in FTDNA for markers? Do you get matches at 37 and 67 markers?

    Yes i didnt know about this specific e5882 sample being tested at 111 but its not even important, he is just one Hungarian, i dont see big deal. Hungarians share some genetics and Y-lines with Balkans.

Page 15 of 17 FirstFirst ... 51314151617 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •