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Thread: E-V13 subclades in Greece

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    Quote Originally Posted by ΦΑΙΔΩΝ View Post
    If you don't know the Hellenic history you should learn it. And if you did , then you would know that the first Hellenic speaking tribes arived in the area of todays Albania at the end of 3rd millennium bc.
    We already had the first setelments in mainland Greece since 2200 bc. Dna studies will provide asistance to archeology and history , they will not substitude those sciences! For nations with enormous and dominant history that goes without saying. For nations with no or little history , dna studies seem very apealling. But in the end history is not gonna change. Revisionism , on the basis of ultranationalism , see Albanians , is doomed to fail.
    https://apnews.com/21b38fb90f2e4cb4bec61a91b7488e30

    Corinthians would be circa 700bc......we will await further testing from link above
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    Grandfather mtdna T1a1e
    Sons mtdna K1a4o
    Mum paternal line R1b-S8172
    Grandmum paternal side I1d1-P109
    Wife paternal line R1a-Z282

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelmendasi View Post
    Yes it can, it is clear that the Albanian population has undergone genetic bottlenecks which means that certain haplogroups have increased in frequency and others have decreased. I also did mention that G2a declined massively due to PIE invasions. You should also take into account the fact that Y-DNA haplogroups can be replaced, the paper on Iberia showed just how significant this replacement could've been. E-V13 is in fact dispersed across Europe, there are certain groups in northern Europe, such as E-L540, that have nothing to do with the Balkans going by the current data that we have. The fact still is that just because there isn't high G2a in Albanians, it doesn't mean E-V13 wasn't absorbed in SE Europe.
    No bottleneck, just tradition and racism to an extent. Albanians have always tried to keep their "genes" in the house, by that I don't mean they are inbreds (although a lot of this did happen hundreds of years ago everywhere on the planet). I mean they tend to marry exclusively with other albanians and even then they often have extensive background "check" conversations. Even in this day and age when people are moving all other the globe and it is tempting to go to another country to marry and have kids, albanians still tend to go back to get a wife/man from albania or in the country they are living in

    It seems the slavs had an impact on the albanian dna more than anyone else (since nobody wants to verify what the roman haplogroups are), I'm not sure why this would be but maybe someone here can explain. Was it via rape or mutual alliance early on since slavs also have impact from albanian dna on their side

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    Quote Originally Posted by ΦΑΙΔΩΝ View Post
    If you don't know the Hellenic history you should learn it. And if you did , then you would know that the first Hellenic speaking tribes arived in the area of todays Albania at the end of 3rd millennium bc.
    We already had the first setelments in mainland Greece since 2200 bc. Dna studies will provide asistance to archeology and history , they will not substitude those sciences! For nations with enormous and dominant history that goes without saying. For nations with no or little history , dna studies seem very apealling. But in the end history is not gonna change. Revisionism , on the basis of ultranationalism , see Albanians , is doomed to fail.
    These theories go back and forth and we still don't know for sure if Greek came from North or from Anatolia. Sure Indo-Europeans came to Greece from the North, but were they the ones that brought Greek? Maybe, maybe not. The strong links between Greek, Armenian, and Iranian need to be studied more seriously.

    Revisionism scares you? Would you like to include Zeus and his disguising acts as different animals in order to rape certain beautiful women as history too? Or that's mythology and you decide where to draw the line between the 2?

    7th century Lakonian/Doric (Spartan dialect) had words related to Albanian in it, indicating that these Dorians had contacts with these "barbarian" tribes of the North, but also can we really verify 100% that Dorians spoke Greek since the beginning while still living far North? Or they adopted it on the way to Greece? Can your history fully verify that instead of using words like 'highly likely' and 'plausible'?

    As for E-V13 that you seem to imply that it came with early Proto-Greeks and Achaeans, most of the E-V13 clades in Greece are too young and they came from further North later during the Middle Ages with a few during Iron Age from the area of Albania and Bulgaria, so don't bother with such a fanatic view of Hellenizing E-V13 too. That's an European clade that spread in all directions likely from Central Europe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nik View Post
    These theories go back and forth and we still don't know for sure if Greek came from North or from Anatolia. Sure Indo-Europeans came to Greece from the North, but were they the ones that brought Greek? Maybe, maybe not. The strong links between Greek, Armenian, and Iranian need to be studied more seriously.

    Revisionism scares you? Would you like to include Zeus and his disguising acts as different animals in order to rape certain beautiful women as history too? Or that's mythology and you decide where to draw the line between the 2?

    7th century Lakonian/Doric (Spartan dialect) had words related to Albanian in it, indicating that these Dorians had contacts with these "barbarian" tribes of the North, but also can we really verify 100% that Dorians spoke Greek since the beginning while still living far North? Or they adopted it on the way to Greece? Can your history fully verify that instead of using words like 'highly likely' and 'plausible'?

    As for E-V13 that you seem to imply that it came with early Proto-Greeks and Achaeans, most of the E-V13 clades in Greece are too young and they came from further North later during the Middle Ages with a few during Iron Age from the area of Albania and Bulgaria, so don't bother with such a fanatic view of Hellenizing E-V13 too. That's an European clade that spread in all directions likely from Central Europe.
    Almost all of e-v13 in Greece is recent Albanian or illyrian, a lot of albanians have migrated and converted to Greek throughout history and still happens today

    In my opinion balkan ottoman soldiers also had a small impact on the balkan countries genetics. Could be why we see spread of e-v13 around all of balkans even in odd areas like Bulgaria and South Greece, and Slavic i2 all over the balkans too all the way down to greece

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    Quote Originally Posted by ShpataEMadhe View Post
    Almost all of e-v13 in Greece is recent Albanian or illyrian, a lot of albanians have migrated and converted to Greek throughout history and still happens today

    In my opinion balkan ottoman soldiers also had a small impact on the balkan countries genetics. Could be why we see spread of e-v13 around all of balkans even in odd areas like Bulgaria and South Greece, and Slavic i2 all over the balkans too all the way down to greece
    Part of Greek V13 seems Arvanite, but more of known V13 lineages seem native to Greece. I do not understand why do some Albanians constantly need to patronize V13 and make up a ludicrous idea that "V13 is Albanian", as Illyrian languages were not brought or even mostly spread by V13.

    Some Greek clades show Late Bronze Age or Early Iron Age arrival to Greece, but the notion of these being "Illyrian" is beyond ridiculous. Dorians most definitely were not Illyrian.

    E-V13 originates from Western Balkan, Cetina culture who were practically enemies (one of important Cetina places became overrun by J-L283 elements as original Cetina culture waned and these had almost no contact despite being neighbors for some time) of incoming proto-Illyrians. And they migrated to Central Balkans and further East where they became part of Danubian archaeological complex which comprised the bulk of Iron Age Daco-Thracian culture, yet Cetina people spoke an Indoeuropean language of some sort, if Thracian is older language cultures like Vatina which must be associated with V13 also spoke Thracian.

    E-V13 bastion in the West were likely people like Liburni who were not Illyrians proper, and always had considered themselves as separate.

    Regarding your ludicrous comments about V13 being spread to Bulgaria in Middle Ages, mirrored by some of you, V13 in those areas is already very diverse, most importantly CTS1273 is more basally diverse than Albanian with less Bulgarians deep tested which speaks volumes.

    Yet there is archaeological and genetic diversity point in Southern Albania where some clades concentrated themselves in LBA/EIA likely pushed from the North by various Bronze Age collapse waves.

    In short in Neolithic V13 were in Illyrian areas, in PIE time they embraced violence (don't forget that E1b1b languages are spoken by the entire Middle East and not J, T, L languages though Semetic branch was spread by P58 mostly) and made their base to the East.

    One Central Balkan E-V13 group was likely one of (proto) Illyrian groups, these had migrations to modern South Albania, so I guess they comprised various tribes.

    I already spoke of some clades such as E-L241 and E-Y3183. Some evidence points to these being potentially related to Dorians. These clades might have spoken Dorian Greek originally, they are both under E-Z16659.

    You are that Kastrioti dude right?? You register on so many places under so many nicknames, but one thing always remains the same, always talking about some Ottoman leftovers among Albanians, Jevgs etc., I saw one of your older posts here few years ago talking about E3b arriving with Ottomans.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ShpataEMadhe View Post
    Almost all of e-v13 in Greece is recent Albanian or illyrian, a lot of albanians have migrated and converted to Greek throughout history and still happens today

    In my opinion balkan ottoman soldiers also had a small impact on the balkan countries genetics. Could be why we see spread of e-v13 around all of balkans even in odd areas like Bulgaria and South Greece, and Slavic i2 all over the balkans too all the way down to greece
    e v13in the Balkans is Indo-European! it came together with r and j2! as such Greeks should have their own share of it as an Indo-European group of people. e v13 appeared in Balkan mostly in Bronx age

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tutkun Arnaut View Post
    e v13in the Balkans is Indo-European! it came together with r and j2! as such Greeks should have their own share of it as an Indo-European group of people. e v13 appeared in Balkan mostly in Bronx age
    Impossible because E broke off from a different E from the Levant.

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    Quote Originally Posted by valentinavalley2 View Post
    Impossible because E broke off from a different E from the Levant.
    That means nothing, E is ~65,200 years old whilst E-V13 is only ~8,100 years old. You can't compare the two. The TMRCA of V13 (~4,800ybp) correlates well with the IE Bronze Age expansions.
    Ydna: J-ZS241

    mtDNA: T1a1l

    Maternal Ydna: E-V13>CTS5856*

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    Part of Greek V13 seems Arvanite, but more of known V13 lineages seem native to Greece. I do not understand why do some Albanians constantly need to patronize V13 and make up a ludicrous idea that "V13 is Albanian", as Illyrian languages were not brought or even mostly spread by V13.
    Some Greek clades show Late Bronze Age or Early Iron Age arrival to Greece, but the notion of these being "Illyrian" is beyond ridiculous. Dorians most definitely were not Illyrian.
    E-V13 originates from Western Balkan, Cetina culture who were practically enemies (one of important Cetina places became overrun by J-L283 elements as original Cetina culture waned and these had almost no contact despite being neighbors for some time) of incoming proto-Illyrians. And they migrated to Central Balkans and further East where they became part of Danubian archaeological complex which comprised the bulk of Iron Age Daco-Thracian culture, yet Cetina people spoke an Indoeuropean language of some sort, if Thracian is older language cultures like Vatina which must be associated with V13 also spoke Thracian.
    E-V13 bastion in the West were likely people like Liburni who were not Illyrians proper, and always had considered themselves as separate.
    Regarding your ludicrous comments about V13 being spread to Bulgaria in Middle Ages, mirrored by some of you, V13 in those areas is already very diverse, most importantly CTS1273 is more basally diverse than Albanian with less Bulgarians deep tested which speaks volumes.
    Yet there is archaeological and genetic diversity point in Southern Albania where some clades concentrated themselves in LBA/EIA likely pushed from the North by various Bronze Age collapse waves.
    In short in Neolithic V13 were in Illyrian areas, in PIE time they embraced violence (don't forget that E1b1b languages are spoken by the entire Middle East and not J, T, L languages though Semetic branch was spread by P58 mostly) and made their base to the East.
    One Central Balkan E-V13 group was likely one of (proto) Illyrian groups, these had migrations to modern South Albania, so I guess they comprised various tribes.
    I already spoke of some clades such as E-L241 and E-Y3183. Some evidence points to these being potentially related to Dorians. These clades might have spoken Dorian Greek originally, they are both under E-Z16659.
    You are that Kastrioti dude right?? You register on so many places under so many nicknames, but one thing always remains the same, always talking about some Ottoman leftovers among Albanians, Jevgs etc., I saw one of your older posts here few years ago talking about E3b arriving with Ottomans.
    It is ridiculous to think ottoman left no genetics in balkans, they did not only with the first wave of their middle eastern origin/arab soldiers but likely also later on when they took in balkan kids and raised them as ottoman soldiers which is why there are odd spreads of slavic, albanian etc genes in far reaches of ottoman empire land

    For me until there is actual proof, some of these J1, the smaller clades e1b, j2, t1a in balkans are also from early ottoman. Geg albanians seem to be the least affected group in the entire balkans by foreign output and not surprising really since they are mountain dwellers, greeks and bulgarians most affected. Do you not remember the huge population exchange between Greece and Turkey? Do you not know about the vast amount of turks in Bulgaria even today?

    Saying albanians are supposed to be "darker" skinned than most Europeans is nonsense because r1b in europe came from asia too not just v13 and l283, the sun light also has something to do with skin colour. Albanians are just as much European as any r1b. Only Northern European i1 can be considered more European than the rest.

    Ilyrians were the dominant group in the west balkans and were employed by romans, the spread of v13 in europe is surely mostly ilyrian? It doesn't make sense for v13 to be mostly found in Albania and yet be foreign when this land wasn't more prosperous than others, why would foreigners go and settle there since you believe it is not ilyrian? Greece was prosperous land, which is why a lot of v13 moved there over time. Also what makes you think l283 is more likely ilyrian than v13, why is there a lack of l283 spread in Europe? L283 could be dardani in origin

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    Quote Originally Posted by ShpataEMadhe View Post
    It is ridiculous to think ottoman left no genetics in balkans, they did not only with the first wave of their middle eastern origin/arab soldiers but likely also later on when they took in balkan kids and raised them as ottoman soldiers which is why there are odd spreads of slavic, albanian etc genes in far reaches of ottoman empire land


    For me until there is actual proof, some of these J1, the smaller clades e1b, j2, t1a in balkans are also from early ottoman. Geg albanians seem to be the least affected group in the entire balkans by foreign output and not surprising really since they are mountain dwellers, greeks and bulgarians most affected. Do you not remember the huge population exchange between Greece and Turkey? Do you not know about the vast amount of turks in Bulgaria even today?

    Well ottomans were conquerors, so it's "cool" that some Albanians would descend of them don't you think? Interestingly among Sandzak Bosniaks who are majority of Albanian roots, some exotic people are found, C-M48 with closest matches in Anatolia, R-L584 with some Anatolian matches. Even some Slavic hg's among them might descend of islamized Bulgarians who migrated westwards with the Ottomans.


    Quote Originally Posted by ShpataEMadhe View Post
    Saying albanians are supposed to be "darker" skinned than most Europeans is nonsense because r1b in europe came from asia too not just v13 and l283, the sun light also has something to do with skin colour. Albanians are just as much European as any r1b. Only Northern European i1 can be considered more European than the rest.


    Ilyrians were the dominant group in the west balkans and were employed by romans, the spread of v13 in europe is surely mostly ilyrian? It doesn't make sense for v13 to be mostly found in Albania and yet be foreign when this land wasn't more prosperous than others, why would foreigners go and settle there since you believe it is not ilyrian? Greece was prosperous land, which is why a lot of v13 moved there over time. Also what makes you think l283 is more likely ilyrian than v13, why is there a lack of l283 spread in Europe? L283 could be dardani in origin

    Well E-V13 is most common in Albanians, but as I showed elsewhere much of it is due to recent founder effect. E-V13 is very high in other places, especially when low Slavic Y-Dna influence in Albanians is adjusted for. So V13 is strong in Greeks, Bulgarians, and even in some Carpathian populations like Ruthenians or Carpathian Ukrainians. L283 is not.


    About West-Euro L283's, well in most cases they are Illyrian, for V13 in many cases they should be.

    I think original Dardani might be some V13 clades, but the original Dardanians were not Illyrian, Illyrian Dardanians came later and they were a ruling class there.

    V13 descends of Dalmatian coast in Neolithic, so if its a hg that stayed in Western Balkans all the time, then obviously it has nothing to do with spread of initial Illyrians. And if it is actually some people that migrated far to the East again they are not initial Illyrians.

    It doesn't fit with the genetic facts at all, diversity points bulk of V13 that is CTS5856 migrated Eastwards/Northeastwards. Also if V13 were some locals then wouldn't have exploded at that time. All hg's when they demographically explode they expand to other places. So R-Z93 is far more common in Indian subcontinent than in central Asia. And ofc, it is more common in Central Asia than in East Europe too from where it originally expanded.

    J-L283 is also far more common in Western Balkans than from where it expanded.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    Well ottomans were conquerors, so it's "cool" that some Albanians would descend of them don't you think? Interestingly among Sandzak Bosniaks who are majority of Albanian roots, some exotic people are found, C-M48 with closest matches in Anatolia, R-L584 with some Anatolian matches. Even some Slavic hg's among them might descend of islamized Bulgarians who migrated westwards with the Ottomans.
    Well E-V13 is most common in Albanians, but as I showed elsewhere much of it is due to recent founder effect. E-V13 is very high in other places, especially when low Slavic Y-Dna influence in Albanians is adjusted for. So V13 is strong in Greeks, Bulgarians, and even in some Carpathian populations like Ruthenians or Carpathian Ukrainians. L283 is not.
    About West-Euro L283's, well in most cases they are Illyrian, for V13 in many cases they should be.
    I think original Dardani might be some V13 clades, but the original Dardanians were not Illyrian, Illyrian Dardanians came later and they were a ruling class there.
    V13 descends of Dalmatian coast in Neolithic, so if its a hg that stayed in Western Balkans all the time, then obviously it has nothing to do with spread of initial Illyrians. And if it is actually some people that migrated far to the East again they are not initial Illyrians.
    It doesn't fit with the genetic facts at all, diversity points bulk of V13 that is CTS5856 migrated Eastwards/Northeastwards. Also if V13 were some locals then wouldn't have exploded at that time. All hg's when they demographically explode they expand to other places. So R-Z93 is far more common in Indian subcontinent than in central Asia. And ofc, it is more common in Central Asia than in East Europe too from where it originally expanded.
    J-L283 is also far more common in Western Balkans than from where it expanded.
    Ottoman were conquerers but not because they were strong because they were numerous. I am not a fan of conquerers as much as I am of defenders. So no, it isn't cool at all to descend from criminal rapists, not in my opinion, especially when they brought no good to europe, just stole peoples money, land and children. Seems only a few albanians descended from them according to gjenetika unless we are talking about potential Slavic, Greek etc ottoman jannisaries but we can't know how much of this is from earlier Slavic invasion or ottoman input

    As for v13 and l283 it wouldn't make much sense for v13 to be strong amongst all of Albania not just north and to be spread throughout europe and not be ilyrian. If we go by history they inhabited the coastal region of Western balkans, other groups like thracians, dardani etc were more Eastern. Even slavs have more v13 than l283, l283 may be ilyrian too but v13 seems more likely due to its great expansion throughout Europe
    Can you do some percentages of subclades of v13 and j2b in Albania (and bosnia/serbia if you can), I want to see which are the highest percentages
    Last edited by ShpataEMadhe; 07-11-19 at 18:35.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ShpataEMadhe View Post
    As for v13 and l283 it wouldn't make much sense for v13 to be strong amongst all of Albania not just north and to be spread throughout europe and not be ilyrian. If we go by history they inhabited the coastal region of Western balkans, other groups like thracians, dardani etc were more Eastern. Even slavs have more v13 than l283, l283 may be ilyrian too but v13 seems more likely due to its great expansion throughout Europe
    Can you do some percentages of subclades of v13 and j2b in Albania (and bosnia/serbia if you can), I want to see which are the highest percentages

    E-V13 has had to expand somewhere. Looking at aDNA evidence it doesn't seem that E-V13 is connected to Bell Bekaers, to Italics, to Celts. The main clade of V13 is CTS5856, and its diversity points at Central-Eastern Balkans/Carpathians, so Thraco-Dacian areas..


    There was a part of Vatin culture which was associated with Illyrians and some ALbanian clades might belong there. Additionally some Cetina culture leftovers like PH1246 were Illyrian.


    But it's not as some Albanians (usually R-Z2705+) would suggest that V13 expands out of Albania. That makes V13 a hg of cucks that is V13 are Neolithic pre-Illyrians who stayed in the same place and got cucked into becoming Illyrians because of E-L618 presence in Neolithic Adriatic coast. That sounds nice if you are E-V13- or if you are E-V13+ cuck... The one who strongly expands in Bronze Age is not a cuck at that time..

    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    1. Six most common E-V13 clusters in Albanians represent 60.8 % of Albanian E-V13 linegaes.
    Gjenetika.com 141/232
    E-Z38456>BY4461 35
    E-Y146086 30
    E-FGC33625 26
    E-PH2180 22
    E-Y173822 17
    E-Z27131 11


    2. Six most common E-V13 clusters in Montenegrins represent 72.0 % of Montenegrin E-V13 linegaes.
    Mirabal et al. 77/107
    E-BY165837 Kuchi 27
    E-BY14151 Vasojevici 21
    E-Y133830 Bjelopavlici 11
    E-A18833 Bjelice 7
    E-Z38456>BY4461 7
    E-PH1173 4




    3. Six most common E-V13 clusters in Bulgarians represent 17.0 % of Bulgarian E-V13 linegaes.
    24/141 (Bulgarian FTDNA project, Karachanak et al, Begona Martinez-Cruz et al)
    E-S7461(389b=29) 6
    E-A18833 5
    E-Y3183* 4
    E-S7461>BY5465 3
    E-PH1173 3
    E-Z5018* 3
    This is why I made this, to show that Albanian and Montenegrin E-V13 percentage is artificially inflated through some clans getting expansive in the past 600 years or so. So don't bother to play the percentage card when it comes to V13. In Montenegro there are I2a clans that expanded such as Ozrinici, but this is common especially among V13 (Kuchi, Vasojevici, Katunjani-Bjelice, Bjelopavlici).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    E-V13 has had to expand somewhere. Looking at aDNA evidence it doesn't seem that E-V13 is connected to Bell Bekaers, to Italics, to Celts. The main clade of V13 is CTS5856, and its diversity points at Central-Eastern Balkans/Carpathians, so Thraco-Dacian areas..


    There was a part of Vatin culture which was associated with Illyrians and some ALbanian clades might belong there. Additionally some Cetina culture leftovers like PH1246 were Illyrian.


    But it's not as some Albanians (usually R-Z2705+) would suggest that V13 expands out of Albania. That makes V13 a hg of cucks that is V13 are Neolithic pre-Illyrians who stayed in the same place and got cucked into becoming Illyrians because of E-L618 presence in Neolithic Adriatic coast. That sounds nice if you are E-V13- or if you are E-V13+ cuck... The one who strongly expands in Bronze Age is not a cuck at that time..



    This is why I made this, to show that Albanian and Montenegrin E-V13 percentage is artificially inflated through some clans getting expansive in the past 600 years or so. So don't bother to play the percentage card when it comes to V13. In Montenegro there are I2a clans that expanded such as Ozrinici, but this is common especially among V13 (Kuchi, Vasojevici, Katunjani-Bjelice, Bjelopavlici).
    Who gives a shit what expanded the last 600 years, all populations did so explain why V13 is strongest in Albania. V13 not being founded in Albania doesn't mean it is not ilyrian, it came from asia/North Africa thousands of years ago across Bulgaria (where you found some sub clades) and then into the western balkans where they became the ilyrians

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    Quote Originally Posted by ShpataEMadhe View Post
    Who gives a shit what expanded the last 600 years, all populations did so explain why V13 is strongest in Albania. V13 not being founded in Albania doesn't mean it is not ilyrian, it came from asia/North Africa thousands of years ago across Bulgaria (where you found some sub clades) and then into the western balkans where they became the ilyrians
    Not exactly, it came from the Middle East or just maybe North Africa directly more than 8000 years ago. It is a Neolithic lineage which likely was mostly confined to Dalmatian coast from around 6300 BC until 2500 BC. So almost 4000 years of being there. Then something happened, the Steppe IE waves were beginning to arrive so out of the native Neolithic element Cetina culture was created. So the local remnants of Hvar culture embraced war, social stratification and other things that came with Indoeuropeans. Cetina culture died out without inheritors but it seems most of E-V13 that is CTS1273 were part of daughter cultures of Cetina: Belotic-Bela Crkva, Bubanj Hum III and Armenochori, and then likely Danubian complex. None of these cultures can be regarded as proto-Illyrian. In fact considering the fact that Minyan Ware was recorded in Bubanj Hum III they are far more likely to have something to do with proto-Greeks.. Except the successor of Belotic-bela Crkva and Bubanj Hum III, Vatin had a Western Serbian variant which was "illyrianized" early on.

    So J-L283/Illyrians essentially took over the old E-V13 lands..

    So you see as usual the hugely expanding haplogroups usually expand into their non-native area, they overgrow the native area and have to expand to other peoples lands!! J-L283 is not native to Western Balkan but it demographically boomed there. R-Z93 is not native to India but it boomed there. R-L51 is not native to Western Europe but it boomed there. J-P58 is not native to Middle East but it boomed there. E-V13 is not native to Eastern/Central Balkan but it boomed there...

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    wrong thread
    Last edited by Dema; 16-11-19 at 15:55.

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    Hi PaschalisB While reading your message I was quite interested to see your information ,I too have a E-V13 A small few ...Slovenia- Ukraine- Hungary -Greece. - J1C was born 16,500 years ago likely Eastern Mediteranian. In my lineage I have about 18 countries with all the different percentages of my DNA throughout. Hopefully this message may find you or others with the same or similar. Thank you for any reply, from Silverbird.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    Not exactly, it came from the Middle East or just maybe North Africa directly more than 8000 years ago.
    The Albanian E-L618 are below Saudi and above Saudi is Danish sample so this branch of L618 might not be of Middle Eastern origin. E-L618 might be Mesolithic too. E-L618+ sample and C-V20+ sample were EEF mostly, but female sample from there had WHG influence, and many blue eyes mutations, I think it even lacked light skin mutation. Plus it was always known that Dalmatian Cardial Neolithic had Mesolithic element.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Interesting is that the Saudi belongs to the same branch as the Albanians (and the Sardinian sample), so very likely their history is connected to that of V13. In the other branch we only have a Latvian and a Lebanese (plus some others, mostly Italians, that are predicted to belong to this branch). So this second branch can still represent a group of L618 that 'stayed behind', which would indicate a Levant origin of L618, in line with Cardial ware origins. Offcourse we could find a sample tomorrow that show this group did not stay behind.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rafc View Post
    Interesting is that the Saudi belongs to the same branch as the Albanians (and the Sardinian sample), so very likely their history is connected to that of V13. In the other branch we only have a Latvian and a Lebanese (plus some others, mostly Italians, that are predicted to belong to this branch). So this second branch can still represent a group of L618 that 'stayed behind', which would indicate a Levant origin of L618, in line with Cardial ware origins. Offcourse we could find a sample tomorrow that show this group did not stay behind.
    Some time ago I predicted that Danish and Algerian/Saudi (I didn't know the STR's of Saudi) will be related based upon dys578=9, E-V13/E-BY6578 modal is 8. And this has been confirmed by Albanians being E-BY28614+ and also sharing dys578=9. So this STR seems very important for E-BY28614 (also one English will belong there most likely). Italian E-L618 (there is one American claiming French descent with an identical haplotype to one Italian so he should be rather of Italian origin) does not share this STR, so they are almost certainly BY28614-.

    But I've identified certain slow STR's that the Italian does not share with the Lebanese & Latvian, such as dys552, dys540 which seem their own private mutations at the E-BY6578 level. He does share the likes of dys643, dys533, dys534 which seem also distinct STR's at the E-BY6578 level (off-modal for BY28614/V13), especially first two are slow so they should be reliable.

    Point is, Italians seem like an earlier split from the Lebanese/Latvian. They are 31/111. That would make this Lebanese of likely European origin.
    -Italians E-BY6578 dys643, dys533, dys534
    ---Lebanese/Latvian dys552, dys510, dys540 etc. TMRCA 4800 ybp

    So the home of E-BY6578 might be Italy, and if YFull Sardinian is distant from the other BY28614's he might be old there too, indicating likely Cardial connection (that's how the Spanish E-L618 got there probably as well). But if indeed all L618 clades are European they might have been easily the Mesolithic Capsian+WHG (who apparently did exist in the area and did have even direct connection with the Dalmatian Cardial culture) assimilated by the C-V20/G2a2 Cardials around Dalmatia.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by rafc View Post
    Interesting is that the Saudi belongs to the same branch as the Albanians (and the Sardinian sample), so very likely their history is connected to that of V13. In the other branch we only have a Latvian and a Lebanese (plus some others, mostly Italians, that are predicted to belong to this branch). So this second branch can still represent a group of L618 that 'stayed behind', which would indicate a Levant origin of L618, in line with Cardial ware origins. Offcourse we could find a sample tomorrow that show this group did not stay behind.
    Based on their TMRCA (3500-2500ybp?) the Saudi fella most likely is with origin from the Balkans or Southern Europe. Don’t forget that the Dalmatian sample splits the current L618 node.

    Wouldn’t be surprised if he is some Albanian remnant from the Ottoman period either. We have seen few other common Albanian clusters show up among them, like R1b-BY611>Z2705, R1b-PF7563>FGC40202 etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Leka View Post
    Based on their TMRCA (3500-2500ybp?) the Saudi fella most likely is with origin from the Balkans or Southern Europe. Don’t forget that the Dalmatian sample splits the current L618 node.
    You mean that the ancient Dalmatian L618 is negative to some SNP's at the L618 level? I was looking at his Y-DNA file a little bit but wasn't checking for L618 level SNP's except few...

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    Would really love to see a real insight into the origin of this Y-DNA instead of astrology-like predictions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Progon View Post
    Would really love to see a real insight into the origin of this Y-DNA instead of astrology-like predictions.
    It's distant origin is pretty much clear and options are narrowed down. Either Cardial descendant PPNB (and of Natufians before) or pre-Neolithic late Mesolithic origin directly from North Africa.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    It's distant origin is pretty much clear and options are narrowed down. Either Cardial descendant PPNB (and of Natufians before) or pre-Neolithic late Mesolithic origin directly from North Africa.
    I don't think they crossed directly from North Africa. I think they lived North from their brethren the Natufians. South East Turkey is probably the place we are looking to. Anyway, tested bones have the last saying.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    You mean that the ancient Dalmatian L618 is negative to some SNP's at the L618 level? I was looking at his Y-DNA file a little bit but wasn't checking for L618 level SNP's except few...
    Yes, he is negative for CTS1975 and PF2252.

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