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Thread: E-V13 subclades in Greece

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by hrvat22 View Post
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrians
    https://postimg.org/image/4qxnhdqsb/
    Subclade CTS5856 4700 years old, north Albania.
    All mutations behind CTS5856 exist in Albania and Albanians.
    Obviously all Albanian mutations are in the area of Albania and wider old around 4000 to 100 years.
    27,5% Albanians and 47% Albanians from Kosovo with E1b CTS5856, live in south Balkan 4700 to 100 years (their ancestors).
    Are they part of Ilirians or not..??
    When we see how old are types of R1b and J2a in Albanias and Albania then we will tell how much of today's Albanians are Illyrian origin.
    Albanian J2 is actually overwhelmingly J2b2-L283 (J-L283). On average it makes up 20-25% of Albanian Y-DNA. The same haplogroup was found in Bronze Age Dalmatia ca. 1550 BC.
    Haplogroup R1b makes up 20-25% of Albanian Y-DNA as well. R1b-Z2103 was found in the Vucedol Culture ca. 2725 BC.


    Source: The Genomic History of Southeastern Europe (samples: I4331, I3499, I3948)

    So all three major Albanian Y-DNA haplogroups in ancient DNA have been found in Western Balkans (Illyrian territory).
    Last edited by Trojet; 04-10-17 at 04:11.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Garrick View Post
    You didn't give ancient samples, obviously you have no genetic evidence from ancient epoches, you did nothing.
    No Illyrian. You are in mistake. But I will explain you detailed, enjoy, nice time in Croatia.
    Since Illyrians came from the east-austrian and slovenian lands in the bronze-age and we know that the dalmatians where from East-austria ( Noricum )
    .

    .
    One needs to investigate if the western Balkans before the arrival of Illyrians from the north was what ancient Greeks state, that is, there where thracians there..........Herodous did say the thracians are the most populous people in the world after the Indians.
    i am referring to late bronze age and early iron -age
    Last edited by Sile; 04-10-17 at 18:31.
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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shetop View Post
    Could you specify all the mutations behind CTS5856?

    https://postimg.org/image/4qxnhdqsb/

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    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    Hrvat22 waste no time with Garrick....he is a lost case.... first he sad Albanians are from Caucas and came with Turks.... now some other Crap......


    Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum
    This is also case in the topic on Croatian origin. After hundred and fifty years of myth that all in the Balkans are Serb origin, when it needs to prove with genetics, now it's a panic.

    They talk that Albanians come from Caucas 500 years ago, but main haplotype in the Albanians is 4,000 years old in the same place. They do not understand that this is myth.
    Last edited by hrvat22; 04-10-17 at 09:53.

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    2 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    Albanian J2 is actually overwhelmingly J2b2-L283 (J-L283). On average it makes up 20-25% of Albanian Y-DNA. The same haplogroup was found in Bronze Age Dalmatia ca. 1550 BC.
    Haplogroup R1b makes up 20-25% of Albanian Y-DNA as well. R1b-Z2103 was found in the Vucedol Culture ca. 2725 BC.


    Source: The Genomic History of Southeastern Europe (samples: I4331, I3499, I3948)

    So all three major Albanian Y-DNA haplogroups in ancient DNA have been found in Western Balkans (Illyrian territory).
    That's what I thought. In the end genes will say everything, there is no hiding.
    Some will cry afterwards but we have respect genetic truth.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hrvat22 View Post
    There is no other way to say it - you don't have a clue what you are talking about.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shetop View Post
    There is no other way to say it - you don't have a clue what you are talking about.
    The first serbian tree (with some albanian last names in it) is from the serbian DNA project data. EV13 is the second largest haplogroup for
    serbs according to the serbian dna project.



    This is the EV13 tree from the albanian bloodlines project:



    It is a very basic concept. If EV13 was found in the balkans that is 7400 years old, this means it is indigenous and predates ANY SLAV migration/invasion into the balkans.

    It is 100% clear that it is not a slav haplogroup, thats for sure at least.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    It is a very basic concept.
    I understand the concept.
    hrvat22 wrote, I quote "All mutations behind CTS5856 exist in Albania and Albanians" . This is simply not true. There are 9 known CTS5856 subbranches and unknown number of unknown branches. So far, only 2 of those 9 are found in Albanians Z5017 and Z5018.

    These are the direct CTS5856 subbranches which are not found among Albanians yet: A9723, Y19509, Z38899, Y16729, S7461, Z16663, S3003.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shetop View Post
    I understand the concept.
    hrvat22 wrote, I quote "All mutations behind CTS5856 exist in Albania and Albanians" . This is simply not true. There are 9 known CTS5856 subbranches and unknown number of unknown branches. So far, only 2 of those 9 are found in Albanians Z5017 and Z5018.

    These are the direct CTS5856 subbranches which are not found among Albanians yet: A9723, Y19509, Z38899, Y16729, S7461, Z16663, S3003.
    I didn't see that quote of his in particular, nonetheless its clear he means those that are share by serbs are clearly the same as those of the albanians, meaning the
    same paternal ancestor.


    Can you produce me a link to these because some of them aren't showing up on YFULL for me:

    "These are the direct CTS5856 subbranches which are not found among Albanians yet: A9723, Y19509, Z38899, Y16729, S7461, Z16663, S3003"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shetop View Post
    I understand the concept.
    hrvat22 wrote, I quote "All mutations behind CTS5856 exist in Albania and Albanians" . This is simply not true. There are 9 known CTS5856 subbranches and unknown number of unknown branches. So far, only 2 of those 9 are found in Albanians Z5017 and Z5018.
    These are the direct CTS5856 subbranches which are not found among Albanians yet: A9723, Y19509, Z38899, Y16729, S7461, Z16663, S3003.


    BY20093 Albanian
    Z38456 Albanian
    Z16988 Albanian
    FGC33625 Albanian
    FGC11450 Albanian
    L241 Albanian
    Z16661 Albanian

    All have an ancestor mutation CTS5856.

    Subbranches which are not found among Albanians yet: A9723, Y19509, Z38899, Y16729, S7461, Z16663, S3003 they are possible left Balkans 4, 3 thousand years ago and today have nothing to do with Albanians except that they come from common ancestors from Albania (subclade CTS5856).

    Do Serbs have these mutations?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    The first serbian tree (with some albanian last names in it) is from the serbian DNA project data. EV13 is the second largest haplogroup for
    serbs according to the serbian dna project.





    This is the EV13 tree from the albanian bloodlines project:



    It is a very basic concept. If EV13 was found in the balkans that is 7400 years old, this means it is indigenous and predates ANY SLAV migration/invasion into the balkans.

    It is 100% clear that it is not a slav haplogroup, thats for sure at least.
    Possibly only subclade PH1246 for now has nothing to do with Albanias.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    Nonetheless its clear he means those that are share by serbs are clearly the same as those of the albanians, meaning the
    same paternal ancestor.
    That's right. Brothers on the male line.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    Can you produce me a link to these because some of them aren't showing up on YFULL for me:

    "These are the direct CTS5856 subbranches which are not found among Albanians yet: A9723, Y19509, Z38899, Y16729, S7461, Z16663, S3003"
    L618-V13 NGS Project E-V13 Draft Tree

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    Quote Originally Posted by hrvat22 View Post
    Subbranches which are not found among Albanians yet: A9723, Y19509, Z38899, Y16729, S7461, Z16663, S3003

    Do Serbs have these mutations?
    No, so far they don't.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by hrvat22 View Post
    This is also case in the topic on Croatian origin. After hundred and fifty years of myth that all in the Balkans are Serb origin, when it needs to prove with genetics, now it's a panic.

    They talk that Albanians come from Caucas 500 years ago, but main haplotype in the Albanians is 4,000 years old in the same place. They do not understand that this is myth.
    No myth here..... this is a lie created in the last 200 years to support expansion agendas.....


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    No place for such Albanian and Croatian propaganda here, it is all about truth and Genetics
    Last edited by Yaan; 05-10-17 at 07:17.

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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    You have genetics and refute us and propaganda.

    All we are saying for now is true and if genetics say otherwise we will respect that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shetop View Post
    I understand the concept.
    hrvat22 wrote, I quote "All mutations behind CTS5856 exist in Albania and Albanians" . This is simply not true. There are 9 known CTS5856 subbranches and unknown number of unknown branches. So far, only 2 of those 9 are found in Albanians Z5017 and Z5018.

    These are the direct CTS5856 subbranches which are not found among Albanians yet: A9723, Y19509, Z38899, Y16729, S7461, Z16663, S3003.
    This one is found.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yaan View Post


    No place for such Albanian and Croatian propaganda here, it is all about truth and Genetics
    So what is your truth than....


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    4 out of 4 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    So what is your truth than....


    Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

    Thanks for asking :)

    1. Albanian is not Ilyrian
    2. Croatian is not Ilyrian
    3. E-V13 is 100 % not Albanian, haplogroups are not held by modern nationalities
    4. I2a Din Souht is 100% not Croatian, haplogroups are not held by modern nationalities
    5. E-V13 is ancient and uber European
    6. I2a Din ( especially North) is really connected with Slavic people
    7. Looks have nothing to do with Y Haplogroup, Male line just says where the father of the father of the father of the father etc. maybe kind ,sort of lived
    8. Croats and Albanians are not the fathers of Serbs and Bulgarians and Greeks and Vlachs

    I could wirte a lot, a lot, a lot, a lot more

    :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yaan View Post
    Thanks for asking :)

    1. Albanian is not Ilyrian
    2. Croatian is not Ilyrian
    3. E-V13 is 100 % not Albanian, haplogroups are not held by modern nationalities
    4. I2a Din Souht is 100% not Croatian, haplogroups are not held by modern nationalities
    5. E-V13 is ancient and uber European
    6. I2a Din ( especially North) is really connected with Slavic people
    7. Looks have nothing to do with Y Haplogroup, Male line just says where the father of the father of the father of the father etc. maybe kind ,sort of lived
    8. Croats and Albanians are not the fathers of Serbs and Bulgarians and Greeks and Vlachs

    I could wirte a lot, a lot, a lot, a lot more

    :)
    except No 7, let me disagree due to endogamous through millenias
    where other genes, than Y or mt, are made as primary of sexual selection, make a special characteristic of the Hg (Y or mt) through time

    The rest are part of truth.
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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Yaan View Post
    Thanks for asking :)

    1. Albanian is not Ilyrian
    2. Croatian is not Ilyrian
    3. E-V13 is 100 % not Albanian, haplogroups are not held by modern nationalities
    4. I2a Din Souht is 100% not Croatian, haplogroups are not held by modern nationalities
    5. E-V13 is ancient and uber European
    6. I2a Din ( especially North) is really connected with Slavic people
    7. Looks have nothing to do with Y Haplogroup, Male line just says where the father of the father of the father of the father etc. maybe kind ,sort of lived
    8. Croats and Albanians are not the fathers of Serbs and Bulgarians and Greeks and Vlachs

    I could wirte a lot, a lot, a lot, a lot more

    :)
    Whether Albanian is or is not Illyrian has not even reached a verdict given the lack of evidence for or against. So, your hastiness to declare a lack of a connection is on equally weak legs as those who claim we do. Lets wait for evidence to surface before we make any bold claims, shall we?

    Additionally, while haplogroups are of course not tied specifically to any nationalities, there are specific clades of haplogroups that are only found amongst certain nationalities. Whilst all people of a haplogroup are related in the ancient past, certain mutations only found in certain ethnic groups are clearly examples/evidence of coalescence of said lineage among said ethnic group. Otherwise you would not find mutations unique to different ethnic groups if they had not developed among them.

    Everyone knows that nationality is a social construct. That does not change the fact that haplogroups develop mutations differently depending on the ethnic group they are present.

    Also, E-V13 predates the first classical civilizations in the Balkans to begin with. E-V13 most certainly participated in many Balkan civilizations. I do not see why unique mutations found among ethnic groups are not evidence of that already.

    Regardless of whether or not Albanians have anything to do with Illyrians, Albanians possess a branch of J2b2 descended of the line they found in Croatia any ways.

    The science is not going to prove any unitary support for any Balkan peoples wet dreams of grandeur.

    The truth of the matter is every nation is a mixed back patrilineally speaking.

    There are clades of E-V13 that only Albanians belong to. There are clades of E-V13 that slavs belong to. etc. So there clearly are branches of lineages that can be assigned to nationalities given the current data.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dibran View Post
    Whether Albanian is or is not Illyrian has not even reached a verdict given the lack of evidence for or against. So, your hastiness to declare a lack of a connection is on equally weak legs as those who claim we do. Lets wait for evidence to surface before we make any bold claims, shall we?

    Additionally, while haplogroups are of course not tied specifically to any nationalities, there are specific clades of haplogroups that are only found amongst certain nationalities. Whilst all people of a haplogroup are related in the ancient past, certain mutations only found in certain ethnic groups are clearly examples/evidence of coalescence of said lineage among said ethnic group. Otherwise you would not find mutations unique to different ethnic groups if they had not developed among them.

    Everyone knows that nationality is a social construct. That does not change the fact that haplogroups develop mutations differently depending on the ethnic group they are present.

    Also, E-V13 predates the first classical civilizations in the Balkans to begin with. E-V13 most certainly participated in many Balkan civilizations. I do not see why unique mutations found among ethnic groups are not evidence of that already.

    Regardless of whether or not Albanians have anything to do with Illyrians, Albanians possess a branch of J2b2 descended of the line they found in Croatia any ways.

    The science is not going to prove any unitary support for any Balkan peoples wet dreams of grandeur.

    The truth of the matter is every nation is a mixed back patrilineally speaking.

    There are clades of E-V13 that only Albanians belong to. There are clades of E-V13 that slavs belong to. etc. So there clearly are branches of lineages that can be assigned to nationalities given the current data.
    Now, now respect to you unlike the Albanian who claims to be Croat you actually have logic and common sense!

    Ofc E-V13 is linked to Ancient Balkan Civilisations you are 100% right, but by no means Albanians are the only descendents of them ;)

    Ofc Albanians have a lot to do with iliriyans, but Albanians just like Croats or Serbs or Bulgarians or Irish or Chinese are a mixture of a lot of things.

    I do things J2b2 have more to do with Ilirians then E-V13, but both are connected ofc so is R1b-L23 etc.etc :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    except No 7, let me disagree due to endogamous through millenias
    where other genes, than Y or mt, are made as primary of sexual selection, make a special characteristic of the Hg (Y or mt) through time

    The rest are part of truth.
    Yes ofc :) But I still believe Y haplogroup have nothing to do with looks, I know J2a and E-V13 guys who look Nordic or Slavic and R1a Z280 and I1 guys who look well quite dark and Med to say the least :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yaan View Post
    Now, now respect to you unlike the Albanian who claims to be Croat you actually have logic and common sense!
    Ofc E-V13 is linked to Ancient Balkan Civilisations you are 100% right, but by no means Albanians are the only descendents of them ;)
    Ofc Albanians have a lot to do with iliriyans, but Albanians just like Croats or Serbs or Bulgarians or Irish or Chinese are a mixture of a lot of things.
    I do things J2b2 have more to do with Ilirians then E-V13, but both are connected ofc so is R1b-L23 etc.etc :)
    Thank you. However, logic/common sense and ethnicities do not go hand in hand. This or that person is not illogical because they are Albanian or Greek or Slavic. They are illogical because as all humans tend, they let their desire drive their mental processes.
    I never thought it was exclusively Albanian. However it is most dominant in Albanians. Even if the common ancestor of all of them lived 1500 years ago. The lineage dominates them today. I agree though. Saying E-V13 is exclusively Albanian is like saying R1a is exclusively Slavic. There are so many factors that go into it. We have to understand however, most people are laymen. Because of this things are labeled with broad strokes.
    Albanians like other ethnic groups are a mix of different things. I don't think anyone with a brain would actually think any ethnic group is pure and unitary in origin.
    I actually believe l Albanians(as in Proto-Albanians) are a lot older than(but not unlike)Illyrians. Yet more like the Vlachs; leaving less of an impact in antiquity, with the Middle Ages being our point of expansion. It's actually a standing theory among albanologists in Austria. my belief is R1b-L23 was the chief lineage of Proto Albanians, who upon assimilation and expansion, absorbed Illyrians, Greeks, Romans and Slavs, becoming modern Albanians. I think the founder effect of E-V13 and J2b2 are not necessarily indicative of Proto Albanians, but rather Illyrians, Greeks, Romans and in part Thracians, absorbed by Proto Albanians. As I understand it all E-V13 Albanian men have one common ancestor who lived 1500 years ago. This could indicate the lineage was far less prominent at one point in time. R1b still has a even distribution region to region.
    While we know we can't assign tribes to one lineage(as I am sure they had many) I would agree J2b2 would have probably been Illyrian, but given geographic expansion and distribution, Im sure the lineage was shared by many tribes.
    As for E-V13 many claim it descends in large part from Slaves of classical civilizations. I cannot confirm or deny this. However, there is a common story among Albanians(at least my father tells me) that wearing the Albanian skull cap is part of a tradition whereby it marks a symbol of our oppression, that it is removed when we are "free". I cannot confirm or deny this. Perhaps some fellow Albanians can chime in.
    I find the connection interesting if it's true. Given E-V13 is so dominant. Surely the slaves outnumbered their masters upon collapse of their kingdoms. Culture is fluid. Like everything it's in constant evolution and flux.
    I think all the Balkans inherited DNA from classical groups. Some more of one tribe over the other.
    Old nations have past. No one is directly related to any of them. We are all merely evolving ethnic groups making ourselves anew generation to generation, due to many different circumstances. Some within our control some outside our control.

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