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Thread: E-V13 subclades in Greece

  1. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    Hrvat22 waste no time with Garrick....he is a lost case.... first he sad Albanians are from Caucas and came with Turks.... now some other Crap......


    Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum
    You are in illusion if you think so but you can think what want, who cares.

    Because Caucasus or any other region is mentioned in particular context for very old Proto populations, where any haplogroup could have origin and it is not wrong with that.

    I never said that Albanians came with Turks and you can read all my posts you will never find this.

    It is not correct but again who cares, but you will be surprised if I say to you that any Albanians give me support, and appreciate my efforts.

    If you want be serious, and really want to know it is better to read next.

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-V13>CTS9320>Z38456

    Ethnic group
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    @Dibran

    Albanians are just a mix of people residing in the Balkans that after the Slavs were pushed from all sides and were roughly concentrated where you find today Albanian speakers. Nothing older about it.

    All in all, E-V13 and J2b2 could be called "more Illyrian" in the stricter sense as they're mostly found among mountain clans, while in the same time those mountain clans are "more typically Albanian" than the more evenly spread R1b. Obviously this is all crap and I don't believe in it so don't quote me on that.

    I'd be interested to know the highland/lowland distribution of E-V13 in Albania and Greece specifically, but also Bulgaria, Macedonia, Serbia, etc. as we more or less have some info on Montenegro.

    As for the hat and slaves story, sorry but that is crap even as an option to simply consider. Remember there's Albanians like myself that come from Montenegro and Herzegovina and brought a separate Albanian dialect (and mostly replaced the previous ones), so there's no chance we came as E-V13 or J2b2 Illyrians and got Albanised by a bunch of local shepherds. If anything what constitutes today of Albania was full of Vlachs/Romanised locals before.

    I hope to see more Greeks and Albanians testing for deeper subclades and solve part of the puzzle concerning this haplogroup as the tables are turning and it's becoming more likely to have been a Northern intruder rather than Southern (Thessaly, Peloponnesus, u name it).

    It even makes sense to me that if true, at least the Dorians were an ethnos created North of Greece, therefore culturally and genetically similar to the "barbaric" Illyro-Thracians and got civilized rather than created a Hellenic civilization (Mycenaeans included) in Greece.

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    hrvat22 (or Albanian from Croatia but it doesn't matter)

    Now first context. Without context someone know nothing. For example somoene who would study haplogroups todays inhabitants of todays Hungary or Turkey and don’t know context, he or she would be mislead and have drawn entirely wrong conclusions. Without a context someone would be in his fantasies, which is not even amateurish or childish.

    Based on the contemporary scientific papers (no Serbian, I very rarely use Serbian sources); only facts

    Albanians (Shqiptarët) speakers of Albanian language (Gjuha Shqipe) came to the areas of present day Albania in 6-8 century.

    Contemporary science solved almost all enigmas of Albanian (Shqiptarët) homeland, there are only two regions (areas) from which the Albanians (Shqiptarët) could came to the areas of present day Albania in 6th-8th century.

    It means Albanians (Shqiptarët) when arrived to Albania are not descendants of Illyrians.

    When arrived to areas of present-day Albania in 6-8 century Albanians (Shqiptarët) could found local inhabitants:

    Greeks

    Romanized Illyrians

    Descedents of Romans and other people (from the areas of present day Italy)

    It is possible some Aromanians, Slavs, if they arrived in that time, some little ethnic groups etc.

    It means that Albanians (Shqiptarët) assimilated local Romanized Iliryans.

    As is Serbs, Croats, Slovenes, Bosnians assimilated Romanized Illirians.

    Answer for you, Croats have no Albanian blood, Illyrians which Croats assimilated (for example in Dalmatia) have nothing with Albanians (Shqiptarët) who came to Albania in 6th-8th century.

    Every nation assimilated Romanized Illyrians how many of them found when this nation came.

    Why Romanized? Because Illyrans adopted Latin language till 3rd century, they ceased to exist as political entity.
    ...

    In genetic terms contemporary Albanians have genetics of

    Shqiptarët who came in the areas of present day Albania in 6-8 century and

    all of above mentioned local people who they found and assimilated.

    It is same for every nation who arrive and settle any territory and assimilate locals.

    The dilemma of science has remained which area is right homeland of Shqiptarët of these two above mentioned areas. How we are interested in genetics everything will be more precisely known when genetic studies will be made for period 2-6 century in only two possible regions which Albanians (Shqiptarët) settled then and from which they left and after that came to areas of present day Albania.

    ...
    Now when we know context we will understand much easier what genetic genealogy says, about possible movement of haplogroup CTS5856 or any other (too much to insert now).

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    @Garrick

    Are you a bot?

    I said earlier that my family just like many came from Herzegovina and brought a distinct Albanian dialect with them. How did those mysterious Albanians of yours manage to assimilate us so far up North while we're sorrounded by Vlachs and Slavs?

    Balkan population movements happened mostly from North to South in that era, so we pushed each other South from Bosnia and Herzegovina down to Peloponnesus, as you can see in the mutations of many many Greeks belonging to V13 or even J2b2 for that matter. Not to mention that Albanian has a layer of Latin words since BC while you're stuck with 8th century AD and Free Carpi/Bastarnae or whatever you came up with recently.

    Im surprised Sile hasn't showed up yet. And of course dear Angela to delete my posts and issue some infractions for derailing the topic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post

    It is a very basic concept. If EV13 was found in the balkans that is 7400 years old, this means it is indigenous and predates ANY SLAV migration/invasion into the balkans.

    It is 100% clear that it is not a slav haplogroup, thats for sure at least.
    Derite
    But what this E-V13 (which subclade) has with what you write.

    For example Proto-Illyrians came to the Balkans 2000 BC via Bosphorus, they didn't have this haplogroup in their homeland (it is possible western Iran, eastern Anatolia or surrounding).

    E-V13 had completely different movements than people assumed until recently.

    If you want such logic I2a is much older in Balkans than E-V13.

  6. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nik View Post
    @Garrick

    Are you a bot?

    I said earlier that my family just like many came from Herzegovina and brought a distinct Albanian dialect with them. How did those mysterious Albanians of yours manage to assimilate us so far up North while we're sorrounded by Vlachs and Slavs?

    Balkan population movements happened mostly from North to South in that era, so we pushed each other South from Bosnia and Herzegovina down to Peloponnesus, as you can see in the mutations of many many Greeks belonging to V13 or even J2b2 for that matter. Not to mention that Albanian has a layer of Latin words since BC while you're stuck with 8th century AD and Free Carpi/Bastarnae or whatever you came up with recently.

    Im surprised Sile hasn't showed up yet. And of course dear Angela to delete my posts and issue some infractions for derailing the topic.
    No, and of course, for all can be found explanation.

    Your discussion is very interesting and different from any nationalistic crap which we can see here.

    And all is very important for topic because context, who reads all of these posts he or she will have much better picture.

    I agree with you that movement of E-V13 was from north.

    Actually until recently people thought very mistaken about E-V13 what means how many this matter is unknown and how matter is fast changing.

  7. #132
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nik View Post
    @Dibran
    Albanians are just a mix of people residing in the Balkans that after the Slavs were pushed from all sides and were roughly concentrated where you find today Albanian speakers. Nothing older about it.
    All in all, E-V13 and J2b2 could be called "more Illyrian" in the stricter sense as they're mostly found among mountain clans, while in the same time those mountain clans are "more typically Albanian" than the more evenly spread R1b. Obviously this is all crap and I don't believe in it so don't quote me on that.
    I'd be interested to know the highland/lowland distribution of E-V13 in Albania and Greece specifically, but also Bulgaria, Macedonia, Serbia, etc. as we more or less have some info on Montenegro.
    As for the hat and slaves story, sorry but that is crap even as an option to simply consider. Remember there's Albanians like myself that come from Montenegro and Herzegovina and brought a separate Albanian dialect (and mostly replaced the previous ones), so there's no chance we came as E-V13 or J2b2 Illyrians and got Albanised by a bunch of local shepherds. If anything what constitutes today of Albania was full of Vlachs/Romanised locals before.
    I hope to see more Greeks and Albanians testing for deeper subclades and solve part of the puzzle concerning this haplogroup as the tables are turning and it's becoming more likely to have been a Northern intruder rather than Southern (Thessaly, Peloponnesus, u name it).
    It even makes sense to me that if true, at least the Dorians were an ethnos created North of Greece, therefore culturally and genetically similar to the "barbaric" Illyro-Thracians and got civilized rather than created a Hellenic civilization (Mycenaeans included) in Greece.
    Perhaps. I don't know much account Albanian clans from Bosnia. I did recently buy tribes of Albania which I haven't had a chance to read yet. Never knew Albanians were as far as Herzegovina honestly lol. I am American born and my father came here at 10. So we know more or less about history concerning our clan in Diber.
    I have no doubt that culturally we are descendants of local tribes. My theory stems from that of Austrian Albanilogists that suggests Albanians were a small nomadic paleobalkan tribe that took part in many Balkan civilizations. Even predating Illyrians. And that they were located somewhere around the district of Mat.
    All theories at this point. No concrete evidence from a linguistic and historical perspective. However DNA is largely showing that Albanians are overwhelmingly natives.
    I have even heard wild theories suggesting Albanians and Vlachs branches off from Dacians.
    Time will tell I suppose.

    I am doing FGC Yelite myself. I tested Z283 and negative downstream all major branches at LivingDNA. doing Y67 to to see if I have matches in the meantime. Though there is a likely chance if LivingDNA is right, I could be a rare clade under Z283.

    Some people from Mirdita claim the clan my father claims we descend were hired Condottieri from Italy by Skanderbeg. I imagine if there is any weight to this claim, my Ydna should have matches in Italy on y37 level?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dibran View Post
    Perhaps. I don't know much account Albanian clans from Bosnia. I did recently buy tribes of Albania which I haven't had a chance to read yet. Never knew Albanians were as far as Herzegovina honestly lol. I am American born and my father came here at 10. So we know more or less about history concerning our clan in Diber.

    I have no doubt that culturally we are descendants of local tribes. My theory stems from that of Austrian Albanilogists that suggests Albanians were a small nomadic paleobalkan tribe that took part in many Balkan civilizations. Even predating Illyrians. And that they were located somewhere around the district of Mat.

    All theories at this point. No concrete evidence from a linguistic and historical perspective. However DNA is largely showing that Albanians are overwhelmingly natives.

    I have even heard wild theories suggesting Albanians and Vlachs branches off from Dacians.

    Time will tell I suppose.
    I appreciate your posts. When I have time I will explain detailed.

  9. #134
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Garrick View Post

    Based on the contemporary scientific papers (no Serbian, I very rarely use Serbian sources); only facts

    Albanians (Shqiptarët) speakers of Albanian language (Gjuha Shqipe) came to the areas of present day Albania in 6-8 century.

    Contemporary science solved almost all enigmas of Albanian (Shqiptarët) homeland, there are only two regions (areas) from which the Albanians (Shqiptarët) could came to the areas of present day Albania in 6th-8th century.
    This is an outright fiction. Its pure propaganda created out of thin air that conveniently places albanians in the balkans later than the very well documented time of slav arrival.

    you claim your very scientific non serbian sources for facts but fail to produce them, lets see them shall we?

    its extremely well established that albanian has to be in the balkans before the first millenium BC because of many linguistic cognates and dialect shifts that match perfectly with well documemted ones that happened in Latin. im on phone atm i will post the actual sources for this so you cant spread absurd claims about albanians coming to albanian homeland after slavs.
    the gheg and tosk dialects have been proven to have been formed at least 2000 years ago because of features that gheg shares with latin and tosk shares with greek.

    for all those non serbs lurking or witnessing this thread i must inform you that the serbian state for at least a hundred years has terrorised the albanian population with outright fictions like this. it claimed albanians spoke a non indo european lamguage and came from caucauses during ottoman empire. the serbian state could not foresee that albanian would be proven to be an indo european language and humiliatingly exposing this regime parroted lie. DNA and increasingly better technology will only continue to dismantle fictions such as the one you pushed here. The fact that you intentionally omit where this non albanian homeland is after hinting at only two possibilities shows how dishonest your intentions are.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    This is an outright fiction. Its pure propaganda created out of thin air that conveniently places albanians in the balkans later than the very well documented time of slav arrival.

    you claim your very scientific non serbian sources for facts but fail to produce them, lets see them shall we?

    its extremely well established that albanian has to be in the balkans before the first millenium BC because of many linguistic cognates and dialect shifts that match perfectly with well documemted ones that happened in Latin. im on phone atm i will post the actual sources for this so you cant spread absurd claims about albanians coming to albanian homeland after slavs.
    the gheg and tosk dialects have been proven to have been formed at least 2000 years ago because of features that gheg shares with latin and tosk shares with greek.

    for all those non serbs lurking or witnessing this thread i must inform you that the serbian state for at least a hundred years has terrorised the albanian population with outright fictions like this. it claimed albanians spoke a non indo european lamguage and came from caucauses during ottoman empire. the serbian state could not foresee that albanian would be proven to be an indo european language and humiliatingly exposing this regime parroted lie. DNA and increasingly better technology will only continue to dismantle fictions such as the one you pushed here. The fact that you intentionally omit where this non albanian homeland is after hinting at only two possibilities shows how dishonest your intentions are.
    Albanians who know me longer know that I don't use Serbian sources, it is true.

    Of course I will gave scientific papers where it is written, but it is not for this thread, in any other more appropriate thread, here I only wanted to talk about context because, you can agree, if someone don't know context and discuss about haplogroups his conclusions will be completely wrong, what I will show in first next.

    What I have with nationalism, if you want know I was Tito fan, appreciated his courage against Stalin, appreciated brotherhood and unity of all people of ex Yugoslavia, I loved federal state, now I love idea of federal Europe, but for this it is doesn't matter, everyone can be whatever he or she wants.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yaan View Post
    Thanks for asking :)

    1. Albanian is not Ilyrian
    2. Croatian is not Ilyrian
    3. E-V13 is 100 % not Albanian, haplogroups are not held by modern nationalities
    4. I2a Din Souht is 100% not Croatian, haplogroups are not held by modern nationalities
    5. E-V13 is ancient and uber European
    6. I2a Din ( especially North) is really connected with Slavic people
    7. Looks have nothing to do with Y Haplogroup, Male line just says where the father of the father of the father of the father etc. maybe kind ,sort of lived
    8. Croats and Albanians are not the fathers of Serbs and Bulgarians and Greeks and Vlachs

    I could wirte a lot, a lot, a lot, a lot more

    :)

    Now all you said proof with historical records and genetics.

    You can not, it mean that you are in myth and everything you say is a lie.

    I wait your evidence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yaan View Post
    Now, now respect to you unlike the Albanian who claims to be Croat you actually have logic and common sense!

    Ofc E-V13 is linked to Ancient Balkan Civilisations you are 100% right, but by no means Albanians are the only descendents of them ;)

    Ofc Albanians have a lot to do with iliriyans, but Albanians just like Croats or Serbs or Bulgarians or Irish or Chinese are a mixture of a lot of things.

    I do things J2b2 have more to do with Ilirians then E-V13, but both are connected ofc so is R1b-L23 etc.etc :)
    Refute me with genetic and historical records when I do not speak logically.

    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...ats-to-Croatia

    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...335#post520335


    I'm waiting for you..hahahahhaah

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    Quote Originally Posted by Garrick View Post
    You are in illusion if you think so but you can think what want, who cares.

    Because Caucasus or any other region is mentioned in particular context for very old Proto populations, where any haplogroup could have origin and it is not wrong with that.

    I never said that Albanians came with Turks and you can read all my posts you will never find this.

    It is not correct but again who cares, but you will be surprised if I say to you that any Albanians give me support, and appreciate my efforts.

    If you want be serious, and really want to know it is better to read next.
    Much of the Serbs are of Albanian origin, this is undeniable.

    You have genetics and historical records and refute that.

    You just love to talk.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Garrick View Post
    hrvat22 (or Albanian from Croatia but it doesn't matter)

    Now first context. Without context someone know nothing. For example somoene who would study haplogroups todays inhabitants of todays Hungary or Turkey and don’t know context, he or she would be mislead and have drawn entirely wrong conclusions. Without a context someone would be in his fantasies, which is not even amateurish or childish.

    Based on the contemporary scientific papers (no Serbian, I very rarely use Serbian sources); only facts

    Albanians (Shqiptarët) speakers of Albanian language (Gjuha Shqipe) came to the areas of present day Albania in 6-8 century.

    Contemporary science solved almost all enigmas of Albanian (Shqiptarët) homeland, there are only two regions (areas) from which the Albanians (Shqiptarët) could came to the areas of present day Albania in 6th-8th century.

    It means Albanians (Shqiptarët) when arrived to Albania are not descendants of Illyrians.

    When arrived to areas of present-day Albania in 6-8 century Albanians (Shqiptarët) could found local inhabitants:

    Greeks

    Romanized Illyrians

    Descedents of Romans and other people (from the areas of present day Italy)

    It is possible some Aromanians, Slavs, if they arrived in that time, some little ethnic groups etc.

    It means that Albanians (Shqiptarët) assimilated local Romanized Iliryans.

    As is Serbs, Croats, Slovenes, Bosnians assimilated Romanized Illirians.

    Answer for you, Croats have no Albanian blood, Illyrians which Croats assimilated (for example in Dalmatia) have nothing with Albanians (Shqiptarët) who came to Albania in 6th-8th century.

    Every nation assimilated Romanized Illyrians how many of them found when this nation came.

    Why Romanized? Because Illyrans adopted Latin language till 3rd century, they ceased to exist as political entity.
    ...

    In genetic terms contemporary Albanians have genetics of

    Shqiptarët who came in the areas of present day Albania in 6-8 century and

    all of above mentioned local people who they found and assimilated.

    It is same for every nation who arrive and settle any territory and assimilate locals.

    The dilemma of science has remained which area is right homeland of Shqiptarët of these two above mentioned areas. How we are interested in genetics everything will be more precisely known when genetic studies will be made for period 2-6 century in only two possible regions which Albanians (Shqiptarët) settled then and from which they left and after that came to areas of present day Albania.

    ...
    Now when we know context we will understand much easier what genetic genealogy says, about possible movement of haplogroup CTS5856 or any other (too much to insert now).
    You anything concrete refute, you just talk.

    There exist genetic and historical records, use it as evidence and refute me.

    Or go on these topics and refute me.

    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...ats-to-Croatia

    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...335#post520335

    There is no one there to refute me.

    It says that I'm right and I'm telling the truth.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Garrick View Post
    Albanians who know me longer know that I don't use Serbian sources, it is true.

    Of course I will gave scientific papers where it is written, but it is not for this thread, in any other more appropriate thread, here I only wanted to talk about context because, you can agree, if someone don't know context and discuss about haplogroups his conclusions will be completely wrong, what I will show in first next.

    What I have with nationalism, if you want know I was Tito fan, appreciated his courage against Stalin, appreciated brotherhood and unity of all people of ex Yugoslavia, I loved federal state, now I love idea of federal Europe, but for this it is doesn't matter, everyone can be whatever he or she wants.
    Talk talk, talk, take a genetics and historical records and begin refute as.

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    Yaan, you pretend truth, when here most of us are throwing hypotheses based on Genetics know so far. Here you have many truth related to many discussions but not to this one.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Diomedes View Post
    Balkan people and their fights in electronic fora. Is humanity crying and losing hope?
    Take genetics and historical records and refute my claims, this is not Serbian, Bulgarian and Greek forum.

    All I said for now is based on something (genetics, historical records, people who deal with certain haplogroups) your arguments are talk,talk,talk.

    What are you specifically refute and with which argument.

    Nor do I see genetics, historical records, etc. just what I see is talk, talk, talk and then is
    Balkan people and their fights

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    This is an outright fiction. Its pure propaganda created out of thin air that conveniently places albanians in the balkans later than the very well documented time of slav arrival.

    you claim your very scientific non serbian sources for facts but fail to produce them, lets see them shall we?

    its extremely well established that albanian has to be in the balkans before the first millenium BC because of many linguistic cognates and dialect shifts that match perfectly with well documemted ones that happened in Latin. im on phone atm i will post the actual sources for this so you cant spread absurd claims about albanians coming to albanian homeland after slavs.
    the gheg and tosk dialects have been proven to have been formed at least 2000 years ago because of features that gheg shares with latin and tosk shares with greek.

    for all those non serbs lurking or witnessing this thread i must inform you that the serbian state for at least a hundred years has terrorised the albanian population with outright fictions like this. it claimed albanians spoke a non indo european lamguage and came from caucauses during ottoman empire. the serbian state could not foresee that albanian would be proven to be an indo european language and humiliatingly exposing this regime parroted lie. DNA and increasingly better technology will only continue to dismantle fictions such as the one you pushed here. The fact that you intentionally omit where this non albanian homeland is after hinting at only two possibilities shows how dishonest your intentions are.
    No serious historians or linguists support the Serbian wet dream of the Caucasus theory. I wouldn't worry too much. Those who have common sense regarding the matter don't entertain the idea of that theory. Those that do usually have an agenda or don't care to do serious research.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diomedes View Post
    Balkan people and their fights in electronic fora. Is humanity crying and losing hope?
    Whether Greeks consider themselves Balkan or not, they're right there with the rest of us when it comes to ignorance and pushing an agenda. Realistically the truth will not conform to either peoples delusions of grandeur. The truth will prove what DNA has been proving from the getgo; we are all a mixed bag. It is like baking a cake with different proportions of ingredients. There is no denying attempts of some to create unsupported unverifiable claims regarding the origins of Albanians. Regardless of how one feels about Albanians. I may not like Serbs as a collective political entity, but I do not let this determine how I conduct myself respectfully or treat individual Serbs who conduct themselves respectfully as well. Every man and woman is responsible for themselves.

    Genetics have already proved we are all intertwined. Despite our religious, linguistic, and cultural associations, we are made of the same building blocks of antiquitous tribes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dibran View Post
    Whether Greeks consider themselves Balkan or not, they're right there with the rest of us when it comes to ignorance and pushing an agenda. Realistically the truth will not conform to either peoples delusions of grandeur. The truth will prove what DNA has been proving from the getgo; we are all a mixed bag. It is like baking a cake with different proportions of ingredients. There is no denying attempts of some to create unsupported unverifiable claims regarding the origins of Albanians. Regardless of how one feels about Albanians. I may not like Serbs as a collective political entity, but I do not let this determine how I conduct myself respectfully or treat individual Serbs who conduct themselves respectfully as well. Every man and woman is responsible for themselves.

    Genetics have already proved we are all intertwined. Despite our religious, linguistic, and cultural associations, we are made of the same building blocks of antiquitous tribes.
    What kind of connection has a mutation I2a I-S17250 with Bulgarians.?
    Yes, the same exists in Bulgarians, but Croats does not come from White Bulgaria in 7 century.

    E1b CTS5856, source of CTS5856 is in Albanian hills, its descendants live there for 4700 years and today they call themselves Albanias.

    What E1b's have to do with Croats. Croats coming to the Balkans in the 7th century.

    https://postimg.org/image/4qxnhdqsb/

    Croats with E1b CTS5856 more accurately with subclades Z16988, Z38456, FGC11450, S2972, Z16661, L241, FGC33625 are of Albanian origin by the male line.

    Unlike Bugars, Greeks and Serbs we in Croatia have dozens of records about coming of the Vlach from east and southe Balkan (we do not hide it).

    Vlahs brought Albanian (E1b) genetics to Croatia, very likely and J2a and R1b types.

    It is interesting that Vlachs bring and I2a with White Croatian subclade I-S17250 and other R1a types, which means that migration of Croats went to Greece and after a thousand years they moving to Croatia with Vlach name and mix genetic( E1b,J2a,I2a,R1a,R1b)
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aroman...enetic_studies

    And another interesting thing is that we in Croatia do not have Vlach, we have Serbians.

    As far I know, there are one or two records about arrival of Serbs to Croatia and for Vlach 20 times more.

    Where are Croatian Vlach disappeared??, they just change their name but genetics remained same becouse genetic does not change name.

    And about the Croats who have gone to Orthodoxy we will not talk, let genetics speak, hahaha.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dibran View Post
    Thank you. However, logic/common sense and ethnicities do not go hand in hand. This or that person is not illogical because they are Albanian or Greek or Slavic. They are illogical because as all humans tend, they let their desire drive their mental processes.
    I never thought it was exclusively Albanian. However it is most dominant in Albanians. Even if the common ancestor of all of them lived 1500 years ago. The lineage dominates them today. I agree though. Saying E-V13 is exclusively Albanian is like saying R1a is exclusively Slavic. There are so many factors that go into it. We have to understand however, most people are laymen. Because of this things are labeled with broad strokes.
    Albanians like other ethnic groups are a mix of different things. I don't think anyone with a brain would actually think any ethnic group is pure and unitary in origin.
    I actually believe l Albanians(as in Proto-Albanians) are a lot older than(but not unlike)Illyrians. Yet more like the Vlachs; leaving less of an impact in antiquity, with the Middle Ages being our point of expansion. It's actually a standing theory among albanologists in Austria. my belief is R1b-L23 was the chief lineage of Proto Albanians, who upon assimilation and expansion, absorbed Illyrians, Greeks, Romans and Slavs, becoming modern Albanians. I think the founder effect of E-V13 and J2b2 are not necessarily indicative of Proto Albanians, but rather Illyrians, Greeks, Romans and in part Thracians, absorbed by Proto Albanians. As I understand it all E-V13 Albanian men have one common ancestor who lived 1500 years ago. This could indicate the lineage was far less prominent at one point in time. R1b still has a even distribution region to region.
    While we know we can't assign tribes to one lineage(as I am sure they had many) I would agree J2b2 would have probably been Illyrian, but given geographic expansion and distribution, Im sure the lineage was shared by many tribes.
    As for E-V13 many claim it descends in large part from Slaves of classical civilizations. I cannot confirm or deny this. However, there is a common story among Albanians(at least my father tells me) that wearing the Albanian skull cap is part of a tradition whereby it marks a symbol of our oppression, that it is removed when we are "free". I cannot confirm or deny this. Perhaps some fellow Albanians can chime in.
    I find the connection interesting if it's true. Given E-V13 is so dominant. Surely the slaves outnumbered their masters upon collapse of their kingdoms. Culture is fluid. Like everything it's in constant evolution and flux.
    I think all the Balkans inherited DNA from classical groups. Some more of one tribe over the other.
    Old nations have past. No one is directly related to any of them. We are all merely evolving ethnic groups making ourselves anew generation to generation, due to many different circumstances. Some within our control some outside our control.

    Thank you for your intelligent and well written resume. really well said, I do not agree that E-V13 is from slaves( I agree with everything else), but as you said we could not be sure, maybe it is, who knows :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by hrvat22 View Post
    What kind of connection has a mutation I2a I-S17250 with Bulgarians.?
    Yes, the same exists in Bulgarians, but Croats does not come from White Bulgaria in 7 century.

    E1b CTS5856, source of CTS5856 is in Albanian hills, its descendants live there for 4700 years and today they call themselves Albanias.

    What E1b's have to do with Croats. Croats coming to the Balkans in the 7th century.

    https://postimg.org/image/4qxnhdqsb/

    Croats with E1b CTS5856 more accurately with subclades Z16988, Z38456, FGC11450, S2972, Z16661, L241, FGC33625 are of Albanian origin by the male line.

    Unlike Bugars, Greeks and Serbs we in Croatia have dozens of records about coming of the Vlach from east of the Balkans (we do not hide it).

    Vlahs brought Albanian (E1b) genetics to Croatia, very likely and J2a and R1b types.

    It is interesting that Vlachs bring and I2a with White Croatian subclade I-S17250 and other R1a types, which means that migration of Croats went to Greece and after a thousand years they moving to Croatia with Vlach name and mix genetic( E1b,J2a,I2a,R1a,R1b)
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aroman...enetic_studies
    I do not disagree with you that certain clades are in fact Albanian. but putting all J2 and E1b under one Albanian umbrella is not true. Everyone would need deeper Y tests to see what their branch of J2b or E1b is, before declaring it Albanian or other. As I understand it Albanians belong to a handful of E-V13 clades, not all of them. So one would need deeper testing. Though I do not doubt there being a higher propensity of this lineage turning up among Albanians, and therefore increased likelihood that those in the Balkans of this haplogroup may be more likely than not, part of the Albanian branches of that haplogroup. It would all depend on matches, TMRCA and other factors. Regardless all E-V13 is related if you go back far enough.

    Also, regarding your last point, I can see that scenario. Many of the early Slavic tribes were themselves of varied and mixed origins. Invading pelopenessus and moving to and fro. I do not doubt it could be possible. Hell, there is a likelihood My line was a Romanized byzantine Slav. Unless my ancestors really did migrate from Italy, then maybe Gothic or Vandali. I am doing Yelite so I should know shortly. Though my family have been in Diber Okshtun for the lst 400 years, before which oral history claims we migrated from Orosh Mirdita. Oral history of this village claims our family of descent were hired condottieri by Skanderbeg in the 1400s. I tested Z283 at livingDNA and negative downstream all major tested branches(all accept basal Z282). We all come from somewhere. If my ancestor was condottieri he could be anything from East Germanic, Norman, Viking, assuming in the case of Italy regarding much of R1a.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dibran View Post
    I do not disagree with you that certain clades are in fact Albanian. but putting all J2 and E1b under one Albanian umbrella is not true. Everyone would need deeper Y tests to see what their branch of J2b or E1b is, before declaring it Albanian or other. As I understand it Albanians belong to a handful of E-V13 clades, not all of them. So one would need deeper testing. Though I do not doubt there being a higher propensity of this lineage turning up among Albanians, and therefore increased likelihood that those in the Balkans of this haplogroup may be more likely than not, part of the Albanian branches of that haplogroup. It would all depend on matches, TMRCA and other factors. Regardless all E-V13 is related if you go back far enough.

    Also, regarding your last point, I can see that scenario. Many of the early Slavic tribes were themselves of varied and mixed origins. Invading pelopenessus and moving to and fro. I do not doubt it could be possible. Hell, there is a likelihood My line was a Romanized byzantine Slav. Unless my ancestors really did migrate from Italy, then maybe Gothic or Vandali. I am doing Yelite so I should know shortly. Though my family have been in Diber Okshtun for the lst 400 years, before which oral history claims we migrated from Orosh Mirdita. Oral history of this village claims our family of descent were hired condottieri by Skanderbeg. I tested Z283 at livingDNA and negative downstream all major tested branches(all accept basal Z282). We all come from somewhere. If my ancestor was condottieri he could be anything from East Germanic, Norman, Viking, assuming in the case of Italy regarding much of R1a.

    And another interesting thing is that we in Croatia do not have Vlach, we have Serbians.

    As far I know, there are one or two records about arrival of Serbs to Croatia and for Vlach 20 times more.

    Where are Croatian Vlach disappeared??, they just change their name but genetics remained same becouse genetic does not change name.

    And about the Croats who have gone to Orthodoxy we will not talk, let genetics speak, hahaha.
    Additionally written.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    but putting all J2 and E1b under one Albanian umbrella is not true.
    I wrote the types
    very likely and J2a and R1b types.
    Which types are in Albanians I do not know.


    Regardless all E-V13 is related if you go back far enough.
    If same occurs in the Albanian hills, then it is connected with today Albanians 12,000 years, this is an indisputable fact.

    Will someone call him (E-V13) Albanian, Chinese, Turkish it's his thing but it is related to today's Albanians.


    Hell, there is a likelihood My line was a Romanized byzantine Slav.
    You are in the male line Slavic origin, and in 10 years or earlier you will know where your male ancestor comes from(village, town, country)

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