E-V13 subclades in Greece

[Diomedes]

Balkan people and their fights in electronic fora. Is humanity crying and losing hope?

 

[blevins13]

Yaan, you pretend truth, when here most of us are throwing hypotheses based on Genetics know so far. Here you have many truth related to many discussions but not to this one.


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

 

[hrvat22]

Balkan people and their fights in electronic fora. Is humanity crying and losing hope?

Take genetics and historical records and refute my claims, this is not Serbian, Bulgarian and Greek forum.

All I said for now is based on something (genetics, historical records, people who deal with certain haplogroups) your arguments are talk,talk,talk.

What are you specifically refute and with which argument.

Nor do I see genetics, historical records, etc. just what I see is talk, talk, talk and then is

Balkan people and their fights

 

[Dibran]

This is an outright fiction. Its pure propaganda created out of thin air that conveniently places albanians in the balkans later than the very well documented time of slav arrival.

you claim your very scientific non serbian sources for facts but fail to produce them, lets see them shall we?

its extremely well established that albanian has to be in the balkans before the first millenium BC because of many linguistic cognates and dialect shifts that match perfectly with well documemted ones that happened in Latin. im on phone atm i will post the actual sources for this so you cant spread absurd claims about albanians coming to albanian homeland after slavs.
the gheg and tosk dialects have been proven to have been formed at least 2000 years ago because of features that gheg shares with latin and tosk shares with greek.

for all those non serbs lurking or witnessing this thread i must inform you that the serbian state for at least a hundred years has terrorised the albanian population with outright fictions like this. it claimed albanians spoke a non indo european lamguage and came from caucauses during ottoman empire. the serbian state could not foresee that albanian would be proven to be an indo european language and humiliatingly exposing this regime parroted lie. DNA and increasingly better technology will only continue to dismantle fictions such as the one you pushed here. The fact that you intentionally omit where this non albanian homeland is after hinting at only two possibilities shows how dishonest your intentions are.

No serious historians or linguists support the Serbian wet dream of the Caucasus theory. I wouldn't worry too much. Those who have common sense regarding the matter don't entertain the idea of that theory. Those that do usually have an agenda or don't care to do serious research.

 

[Dibran]

Balkan people and their fights in electronic fora. Is humanity crying and losing hope?

Whether Greeks consider themselves Balkan or not, they're right there with the rest of us when it comes to ignorance and pushing an agenda. Realistically the truth will not conform to either peoples delusions of grandeur. The truth will prove what DNA has been proving from the getgo; we are all a mixed bag. It is like baking a cake with different proportions of ingredients. There is no denying attempts of some to create unsupported unverifiable claims regarding the origins of Albanians. Regardless of how one feels about Albanians. I may not like Serbs as a collective political entity, but I do not let this determine how I conduct myself respectfully or treat individual Serbs who conduct themselves respectfully as well. Every man and woman is responsible for themselves.

Genetics have already proved we are all intertwined. Despite our religious, linguistic, and cultural associations, we are made of the same building blocks of antiquitous tribes.

 

[hrvat22]

Whether Greeks consider themselves Balkan or not, they're right there with the rest of us when it comes to ignorance and pushing an agenda. Realistically the truth will not conform to either peoples delusions of grandeur. The truth will prove what DNA has been proving from the getgo; we are all a mixed bag. It is like baking a cake with different proportions of ingredients. There is no denying attempts of some to create unsupported unverifiable claims regarding the origins of Albanians. Regardless of how one feels about Albanians. I may not like Serbs as a collective political entity, but I do not let this determine how I conduct myself respectfully or treat individual Serbs who conduct themselves respectfully as well. Every man and woman is responsible for themselves.

Genetics have already proved we are all intertwined. Despite our religious, linguistic, and cultural associations, we are made of the same building blocks of antiquitous tribes.

What kind of connection has a mutation I2a I-S17250 with Bulgarians.?
Yes, the same exists in Bulgarians, but Croats does not come from White Bulgaria in 7 century.

E1b CTS5856, source of CTS5856 is in Albanian hills, its descendants live there for 4700 years and today they call themselves Albanias.

What E1b's have to do with Croats. Croats coming to the Balkans in the 7th century.

https://postimg.org/image/4qxnhdqsb/

Croats with E1b CTS5856 more accurately with subclades Z16988, Z38456, FGC11450, S2972, Z16661, L241, FGC33625 are of Albanian origin by the male line.

Unlike Bugars, Greeks and Serbs we in Croatia have dozens of records about coming of the Vlach from east and southe Balkan (we do not hide it).

Vlahs brought Albanian (E1b) genetics to Croatia, very likely and J2a and R1b types.

It is interesting that Vlachs bring and I2a with White Croatian subclade I-S17250 and other R1a types, which means that migration of Croats went to Greece and after a thousand years they moving to Croatia with Vlach name and mix genetic( E1b,J2a,I2a,R1a,R1b)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aromanians#Genetic_studies

And another interesting thing is that we in Croatia do not have Vlach, we have Serbians.

As far I know, there are one or two records about arrival of Serbs to Croatia and for Vlach 20 times more.

Where are Croatian Vlach disappeared??, they just change their name but genetics remained same becouse genetic does not change name.

And about the Croats who have gone to Orthodoxy we will not talk, let genetics speak, hahaha.

 

[Yaan]

Thank you. However, logic/common sense and ethnicities do not go hand in hand. This or that person is not illogical because they are Albanian or Greek or Slavic. They are illogical because as all humans tend, they let their desire drive their mental processes.
I never thought it was exclusively Albanian. However it is most dominant in Albanians. Even if the common ancestor of all of them lived 1500 years ago. The lineage dominates them today. I agree though. Saying E-V13 is exclusively Albanian is like saying R1a is exclusively Slavic. There are so many factors that go into it. We have to understand however, most people are laymen. Because of this things are labeled with broad strokes.
Albanians like other ethnic groups are a mix of different things. I don't think anyone with a brain would actually think any ethnic group is pure and unitary in origin.
I actually believe l Albanians(as in Proto-Albanians) are a lot older than(but not unlike)Illyrians. Yet more like the Vlachs; leaving less of an impact in antiquity, with the Middle Ages being our point of expansion. It's actually a standing theory among albanologists in Austria. my belief is R1b-L23 was the chief lineage of Proto Albanians, who upon assimilation and expansion, absorbed Illyrians, Greeks, Romans and Slavs, becoming modern Albanians. I think the founder effect of E-V13 and J2b2 are not necessarily indicative of Proto Albanians, but rather Illyrians, Greeks, Romans and in part Thracians, absorbed by Proto Albanians. As I understand it all E-V13 Albanian men have one common ancestor who lived 1500 years ago. This could indicate the lineage was far less prominent at one point in time. R1b still has a even distribution region to region.
While we know we can't assign tribes to one lineage(as I am sure they had many) I would agree J2b2 would have probably been Illyrian, but given geographic expansion and distribution, Im sure the lineage was shared by many tribes.
As for E-V13 many claim it descends in large part from Slaves of classical civilizations. I cannot confirm or deny this. However, there is a common story among Albanians(at least my father tells me) that wearing the Albanian skull cap is part of a tradition whereby it marks a symbol of our oppression, that it is removed when we are "free". I cannot confirm or deny this. Perhaps some fellow Albanians can chime in.
I find the connection interesting if it's true. Given E-V13 is so dominant. Surely the slaves outnumbered their masters upon collapse of their kingdoms. Culture is fluid. Like everything it's in constant evolution and flux.
I think all the Balkans inherited DNA from classical groups. Some more of one tribe over the other.
Old nations have past. No one is directly related to any of them. We are all merely evolving ethnic groups making ourselves anew generation to generation, due to many different circumstances. Some within our control some outside our control.

Thank you for your intelligent and well written resume. really well said, I do not agree that E-V13 is from slaves( I agree with everything else), but as you said we could not be sure, maybe it is, who knows

 

[Dibran]

What kind of connection has a mutation I2a I-S17250 with Bulgarians.?
Yes, the same exists in Bulgarians, but Croats does not come from White Bulgaria in 7 century.

E1b CTS5856, source of CTS5856 is in Albanian hills, its descendants live there for 4700 years and today they call themselves Albanias.

What E1b's have to do with Croats. Croats coming to the Balkans in the 7th century.

https://postimg.org/image/4qxnhdqsb/

Croats with E1b CTS5856 more accurately with subclades Z16988, Z38456, FGC11450, S2972, Z16661, L241, FGC33625 are of Albanian origin by the male line.

Unlike Bugars, Greeks and Serbs we in Croatia have dozens of records about coming of the Vlach from east of the Balkans (we do not hide it).

Vlahs brought Albanian (E1b) genetics to Croatia, very likely and J2a and R1b types.

It is interesting that Vlachs bring and I2a with White Croatian subclade I-S17250 and other R1a types, which means that migration of Croats went to Greece and after a thousand years they moving to Croatia with Vlach name and mix genetic( E1b,J2a,I2a,R1a,R1b)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aromanians#Genetic_studies

I do not disagree with you that certain clades are in fact Albanian. but putting all J2 and E1b under one Albanian umbrella is not true. Everyone would need deeper Y tests to see what their branch of J2b or E1b is, before declaring it Albanian or other. As I understand it Albanians belong to a handful of E-V13 clades, not all of them. So one would need deeper testing. Though I do not doubt there being a higher propensity of this lineage turning up among Albanians, and therefore increased likelihood that those in the Balkans of this haplogroup may be more likely than not, part of the Albanian branches of that haplogroup. It would all depend on matches, TMRCA and other factors. Regardless all E-V13 is related if you go back far enough.

Also, regarding your last point, I can see that scenario. Many of the early Slavic tribes were themselves of varied and mixed origins. Invading pelopenessus and moving to and fro. I do not doubt it could be possible. Hell, there is a likelihood My line was a Romanized byzantine Slav. Unless my ancestors really did migrate from Italy, then maybe Gothic or Vandali. I am doing Yelite so I should know shortly. Though my family have been in Diber Okshtun for the lst 400 years, before which oral history claims we migrated from Orosh Mirdita. Oral history of this village claims our family of descent were hired condottieri by Skanderbeg in the 1400s. I tested Z283 at livingDNA and negative downstream all major tested branches(all accept basal Z282). We all come from somewhere. If my ancestor was condottieri he could be anything from East Germanic, Norman, Viking, assuming in the case of Italy regarding much of R1a.

 

[hrvat22]

I do not disagree with you that certain clades are in fact Albanian. but putting all J2 and E1b under one Albanian umbrella is not true. Everyone would need deeper Y tests to see what their branch of J2b or E1b is, before declaring it Albanian or other. As I understand it Albanians belong to a handful of E-V13 clades, not all of them. So one would need deeper testing. Though I do not doubt there being a higher propensity of this lineage turning up among Albanians, and therefore increased likelihood that those in the Balkans of this haplogroup may be more likely than not, part of the Albanian branches of that haplogroup. It would all depend on matches, TMRCA and other factors. Regardless all E-V13 is related if you go back far enough.

Also, regarding your last point, I can see that scenario. Many of the early Slavic tribes were themselves of varied and mixed origins. Invading pelopenessus and moving to and fro. I do not doubt it could be possible. Hell, there is a likelihood My line was a Romanized byzantine Slav. Unless my ancestors really did migrate from Italy, then maybe Gothic or Vandali. I am doing Yelite so I should know shortly. Though my family have been in Diber Okshtun for the lst 400 years, before which oral history claims we migrated from Orosh Mirdita. Oral history of this village claims our family of descent were hired condottieri by Skanderbeg. I tested Z283 at livingDNA and negative downstream all major tested branches(all accept basal Z282). We all come from somewhere. If my ancestor was condottieri he could be anything from East Germanic, Norman, Viking, assuming in the case of Italy regarding much of R1a.

And another interesting thing is that we in Croatia do not have Vlach, we have Serbians.

As far I know, there are one or two records about arrival of Serbs to Croatia and for Vlach 20 times more.

Where are Croatian Vlach disappeared??, they just change their name but genetics remained same becouse genetic does not change name.

And about the Croats who have gone to Orthodoxy we will not talk, let genetics speak, hahaha.

Additionally written.

 

[hrvat22]

Dibran

but putting all J2 and E1b under one Albanian umbrella is not true.

I wrote the types

very likely and J2a and R1b types.

Which types are in Albanians I do not know.

Regardless all E-V13 is related if you go back far enough.

If same occurs in the Albanian hills, then it is connected with today Albanians 12,000 years, this is an indisputable fact.

Will someone call him (E-V13) Albanian, Chinese, Turkish it's his thing but it is related to today's Albanians.

Hell, there is a likelihood My line was a Romanized byzantine Slav.

You are in the male line Slavic origin, and in 10 years or earlier you will know where your male ancestor comes from(village, town, country)

 

[Dibran]

Thank you for your intelligent and well written resume. really well said, I do not agree that E-V13 is from slaves( I agree with everything else), but as you said we could not be sure, maybe it is, who knows

Perhaps, its so native of a line, that I am sure it was not exclusively found in slaves.

 

[Dibran]

I wrote the types


Which types are in Albanians I do not know.




If same occurs in the Albanian hills, then it is connected with today Albanians 12,000 years, this is an indisputable fact.

Will someone call him (E-V13) Albanian, Chinese, Turkish it's his thing but it is related to today's Albanians.




You are in the male line Slavic origin, and in 10 years or earlier you will know where your male ancestor comes from(village, town, country)

Albanian is an Indo-European language. Indo-Europeans were not even in the Balkans 12000 years ago. So the fact Albanians paternally descend from natives 12,000 years ago, then they adopted proto Albanian language from mostly R1b-L23 Proto Albanians. Albanian is also part of the Satem Indo European branch. Which means it evolved from the same indo European branch that Slavic and Indo-Aryan Languages evolved. There is no doubt the original Ydna of Proto Albanians was R1b. Though, the language spread as far as current evidence suggests, were by proto-indo-europeans who were largely R1a.

There is even evidence to suggest a bronze age type of "globalization", which would explain the dominant indo European language spread via trade, without the Y-DNA accompanying it. This is evident even today where Albanian language is being mixed with American English, due to business, trade, and globalization. Evidence was discovered in Pompeii, suggesting far larger melting pot than even modern day NYC.

History is constantly happening in constant flux. Even modern concepts of nationalism didn't exist a few hundred years ago. I do not think anyone will find the evidence supporting a unitary theory. It doesn't surprise me though, that people will continue to push their agendas despite what evidence would suggest.


No it is not Slavic origin. This is what I mean by the fact that one needs to accustom themselves to the many factors of determining genetic ancestry. If you pay attention to what I stated, I am negative downstream Z283. Z283 were Kurgans.

R1a is not exclusively Slavic. M458/Z280 are the main Slavic branches, and even certain clades under these branches are not exlusively Slavic. I would take the admins of the R1a projects extensive knowledge on this matter moreso than fellow forum users(no disrespect). There is some debate whether M458 was even Slavic as it may have participated in WielBark Culture, Lusatian etc. Prior to the expansion of Proto-Slavs, and upon assimilation, the inception of Slavs.

Proto-Balto-Slavic is not the same as Slavic. It is the proto-Indo-European linguistic umbrella, that diverged into many indo European languages(one of which Slavic belongs). If my paternal matches and clade come back Slavic then that would confirm your assertion. However, my family has been Albanian for 400 years as far as we can document, prior to which oral history claims descent from Mirdita. Most of my autosomal matches are Albanians Greeks, and Romanians. If my ancestor was a Slav it was in the great migration period.

When one mentions Slav and Proto-Balto-Slavic, we have to understand they are different. In the same sense, Slavs ethnogenically are a culture formed of Proto-Slavs(whom diverged from proto-balto-slavs) and other absorbed peoples.

To clarify the term Proto:

proto-
ˈprōdō/
combining form
prefix: proto-; prefix: prot-

• original; primitive.
  "prototherian"
  • first; anterior; relating to a precursor.
    "protomartyr"
  
  
  
  

A precursor cannot be confused for modern day cultures. a pre-cursor was a particular tribe or group of men to whom the later evolving cultures largely descend. It is mixing proto slavs(who diverged from proto balto slavs) and other components of expanding groups, which pooled together formed the modern ethno linguistic slavs. Z283 folk probably looked Asian as ****, considering Central Asian origin.

Slavic is a ethnolinguistic group. to say all R1a is Slavic is silly. You have R1a very widespread from Europe to Asia. If LivingDNA was wrong in their assignment, then there is possibility I belong to M458 or Z280. If they are correct and Yelite/FtDNA confirms this, then I am probably a rare clade under Z283(Kurgan/Proto-Indo-European). I already lack 2 tihrds of pivotal mutations on the line anyways. which means the confidence level for placement is low.

Y-DNA is also a base, and only accounts for 1 percent(mtDNa the other one percent) which is a total of 2 percent of the genome. Your autosomal profile(the other 98%) is what is used for inference of ethnic composition and shared dna population to population. You can't call an E-V13 Slav(who may or may not have had an Albanian ancestor in the distant past) an Albanian anymore than you would call a Greek, Greek whose family was in Russia and mixed with Russians.

Ethnic groups can only be linked to certain mutations on the Y-line based upon the cultures their paternal ancestor participated. This is due to the unique mutations developing within the host culture it mixed. This is why you find these mutations unique to ethnic groups. Not becauause the haplogroup is specifically "insert ethnic group here" but because their paternal ancestor developed/inherited new mutations given assimilation into a different culture compared to those who participated in a separate culture.

You can find these divergence points through TMRCA which clearly show it cant all be grouped into one basket. That's ignorance. Only people with nationalistic agendas make absolutist claims.

 

[hrvat22]

Dibran

Albanian is an Indo-European language.

I'm not talking about Indo-European language I talk about Albanians with E1b types.

Z283 were Kurgans.

Then you have Kurgan ancestor in the male line.

You can't call an E-V13 Slav

Who calls him Slav??

Ethnic groups can only be linked to certain mutations on the Y-line based upon the cultures their paternal ancestor participated.

I2a I-S17250 has a genetic connection with the Croats, and historical records only that I-S17250 conect with Croats.

For that reason I-S17250 can not be originally Albanian, Bulgarian, Greek, Bosnian, Slovenian, Romanian, Serbian, Montenegrin, Ukrainian, Rusian, Czech, Vlach, Slovak etc..

 

[Dibran]

I'm not talking about Indo-European language I talk about Albanians with E1b types.



Then you have Kurgan ancestor in the male line.



Who calls him Slav??


I2a I-S17250 has a genetic connection with the Croats, and historical records only that I-S17250 conect with Croats.

For that reason I-S17250 can not be originally Albanian, Bulgarian, Greek, Bosnian, Slovenian, Romanian, Serbian, Montenegrin, Ukrainian, Rusian, Czech, Vlach, Slovak etc..

Then I apologize for the confusion. The way you phrased it I assumed you meant as a culture Albanians existed for 12000 years. As a Language the earliest it would have entered was the bronze age. So the paternal ancestors of many Albanians are descended from natives assimilated by Proto-Albanian R1b-L23. That's my understanding. This suggests that modern Albanians are largely descended from natives who intermixed with Proto-Albanians and inherited language and culture and dna much the same as my paternal ancestors did(possibly during the great migration).

You said:
Who calls him Slav??

If you read the whole statement I said ". You can't call an E-V13 Slav(who may or may not have had an Albanian ancestor in the distant past) an Albanian anymore than you would call a Greek, Greek whose family was in Russia and mixed with Russians."

If I wasn't clear I apologize. In short, an E-V13 Slav who had an Albanian ancestor is no more Albanian if that ancestor lived generations ago. I know in the case of Sanxhak that some maybe have been Albanian as early as 100 years ago, so in this case we can say with certainty they are Albanian. But 1000? 2000? 5000 years? That wouldn't make sense considering none of the modern cultures we ascribe these lines existed at their inception.



Even today, Americans are so mixed, they cannot be specifically this or that. They are a new culture.

With regards to I2a, I am afraid I do not know much about this Haplogroup or its many branches. So I apologize if I have nothing to offer on this particular subject. I wouldn't know. However, if we assume similar course of events as many lineages, I suppose it depends on the TMRCA for one. Including specific mutation. when did this clade I-S17250 form? If it predates the development of the culture that would be considered "Croat" Then chances are it is not Croatian. However if this specific mutation you reference is most dominant in and corresponds to the Croats, then I would agree its Croatian.

It all depends on the matches and mutations of that line those I2 people have. TMRCA etc.. I recently learned that some people of the same branch can have different TMRCA's which I think indicates that the common ancestor diverged, and didn't participate in the same movements as its brother branches.

Do other Balkan peoples on this branch you mention largely match Croats? If so I would assume that is the connection.

 

[Yetos]

oh boy

at the end I am from Y-DNA from Africa Homo Sapiens
and from mt DNA from Neantherthal from Caucasus,

so I am an Afro-Asian European,

YOU MISS THE POINT,

Hrvat, go tell your neighbour, that is not I2, that he is not Croat,
even if he lost his father or his grand father in a war for Croatia,

JUST STUPIDITY

 

[Sile]

Albanian is an Indo-European language. Indo-Europeans were not even in the Balkans 12000 years ago. So the fact Albanians paternally descend from natives 12,000 years ago, then they adopted proto Albanian language from mostly R1b-L23 Proto Albanians. Albanian is also part of the Satem Indo European branch. Which means it evolved from the same indo European branch that Slavic and Indo-Aryan Languages evolved. There is no doubt the original Ydna of Proto Albanians was R1b. Though, the language spread as far as current evidence suggests, were by proto-indo-europeans who were largely R1a.

There is even evidence to suggest a bronze age type of "globalization", which would explain the dominant indo European language spread via trade, without the Y-DNA accompanying it. This is evident even today where Albanian language is being mixed with American English, due to business, trade, and globalization. Evidence was discovered in Pompeii, suggesting far larger melting pot than even modern day NYC.

History is constantly happening in constant flux. Even modern concepts of nationalism didn't exist a few hundred years ago. I do not think anyone will find the evidence supporting a unitary theory. It doesn't surprise me though, that people will continue to push their agendas despite what evidence would suggest.


No it is not Slavic origin. This is what I mean by the fact that one needs to accustom themselves to the many factors of determining genetic ancestry. If you pay attention to what I stated, I am negative downstream Z283. Z283 were Kurgans.

R1a is not exclusively Slavic. M458/Z280 are the main Slavic branches, and even certain clades under these branches are not exlusively Slavic. I would take the admins of the R1a projects extensive knowledge on this matter moreso than fellow forum users(no disrespect). There is some debate whether M458 was even Slavic as it may have participated in WielBark Culture, Lusatian etc. Prior to the expansion of Proto-Slavs, and upon assimilation, the inception of Slavs.

Proto-Balto-Slavic is not the same as Slavic. It is the proto-Indo-European linguistic umbrella, that diverged into many indo European languages(one of which Slavic belongs). If my paternal matches and clade come back Slavic then that would confirm your assertion. However, my family has been Albanian for 400 years as far as we can document, prior to which oral history claims descent from Mirdita. Most of my autosomal matches are Albanians Greeks, and Romanians. If my ancestor was a Slav it was in the great migration period.

When one mentions Slav and Proto-Balto-Slavic, we have to understand they are different. In the same sense, Slavs ethnogenically are a culture formed of Proto-Slavs(whom diverged from proto-balto-slavs) and other absorbed peoples.

To clarify the term Proto:

proto-
ˈprōdō/
combining form
prefix: proto-; prefix: prot-

• original; primitive.
  "prototherian"
  • first; anterior; relating to a precursor.
    "protomartyr"
  
  
  
  

A precursor cannot be confused for modern day cultures. a pre-cursor was a particular tribe or group of men to whom the later evolving cultures largely descend. It is mixing proto slavs(who diverged from proto balto slavs) and other components of expanding groups, which pooled together formed the modern ethno linguistic slavs. Z283 folk probably looked Asian as ****, considering Central Asian origin.

Slavic is a ethnolinguistic group. to say all R1a is Slavic is silly. You have R1a very widespread from Europe to Asia. If LivingDNA was wrong in their assignment, then there is possibility I belong to M458 or Z280. If they are correct and Yelite/FtDNA confirms this, then I am probably a rare clade under Z283(Kurgan/Proto-Indo-European). I already lack 2 tihrds of pivotal mutations on the line anyways. which means the confidence level for placement is low.

Y-DNA is also a base, and only accounts for 1 percent(mtDNa the other one percent) which is a total of 2 percent of the genome. Your autosomal profile(the other 98%) is what is used for inference of ethnic composition and shared dna population to population. You can't call an E-V13 Slav(who may or may not have had an Albanian ancestor in the distant past) an Albanian anymore than you would call a Greek, Greek whose family was in Russia and mixed with Russians.

Ethnic groups can only be linked to certain mutations on the Y-line based upon the cultures their paternal ancestor participated. This is due to the unique mutations developing within the host culture it mixed. This is why you find these mutations unique to ethnic groups. Not becauause the haplogroup is specifically "insert ethnic group here" but because their paternal ancestor developed/inherited new mutations given assimilation into a different culture compared to those who participated in a separate culture.

You can find these divergence points through TMRCA which clearly show it cant all be grouped into one basket. That's ignorance. Only people with nationalistic agendas make absolutist claims.

agree

One then has the term pre-Slav which people think is the same as proto-slav .................it is not , and we have to contend with this confusion

 

[Trojet]

@Garrick
Are you a bot?
I said earlier that my family just like many came from Herzegovina and brought a distinct Albanian dialect with them. How did those mysterious Albanians of yours manage to assimilate us so far up North while we're sorrounded by Vlachs and Slavs?
Balkan population movements happened mostly from North to South in that era, so we pushed each other South from Bosnia and Herzegovina down to Peloponnesus, as you can see in the mutations of many many Greeks belonging to V13 or even J2b2 for that matter. Not to mention that Albanian has a layer of Latin words since BC while you're stuck with 8th century AD and Free Carpi/Bastarnae or whatever you came up with recently.
Im surprised Sile hasn't showed up yet. And of course dear Angela to delete my posts and issue some infractions for derailing the topic.

It's the usual pattern, isn't it by Garrick the Serb ("Free Dacians", "Carpi", etc). I'm surprised Sile hasn't showed up yet too, lol

 

[hrvat22]

Dibran

so in this case we can say with certainty they are Albanian. But 1000? 2000? 5000 years?

I agree that some subclade which have arisen before first mention of Albanian name can not be factually related to Albanians but I think that Illyrians are ancestors of today Albanians.




I do not know historical connection between Illyrians and Albanians but the only thing that binds them is E1b subclade CTS5856 (north Albania 4700 years) and that subclade(as ancestor subclade) have every Albanian in that area.

when did this clade I-S17250 form?

https://yfull.com/tree/I-S17250/

formed 2600-1950 year.

It is a White Croat mutation, fact is that White Croats there are not mentioned until the 6th century however the only record from Balkans that confirms migration of someone from that area(south east Poland, south west Ukraine) is record about Croatians.

Later in the area are mentioned some Croats.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Croats

Behind this subclade I-S17250 exist different branches but only those subclade I-S17250 is a common ancestor to all Croatian subclades.

Considering that subclade I-S17250 coming from the area where White Croats are mentioned the only logical explanation is that subclade I-S17250 is White Croatian origin.

Do other Balkan peoples on this branch you mention largely match Croats?

Most of the Balkans I2a have an ancestor mutation I-S17250

Porphyrogenitus in 10th century says that Croats settled Illyria, Dalmatia and Pannonia and that come from Great Croatia.

There exist and some Croatian toponyms in Macedonia and Greece

​https://www.familytreedna.com/public/I2aHapGroup/default.aspx?section=ymap

 

[Sile]

@Garrick

Are you a bot?

I said earlier that my family just like many came from Herzegovina and brought a distinct Albanian dialect with them. How did those mysterious Albanians of yours manage to assimilate us so far up North while we're sorrounded by Vlachs and Slavs?

Balkan population movements happened mostly from North to South in that era, so we pushed each other South from Bosnia and Herzegovina down to Peloponnesus, as you can see in the mutations of many many Greeks belonging to V13 or even J2b2 for that matter. Not to mention that Albanian has a layer of Latin words since BC while you're stuck with 8th century AD and Free Carpi/Bastarnae or whatever you came up with recently.

Im surprised Sile hasn't showed up yet. And of course dear Angela to delete my posts and issue some infractions for derailing the topic.

LOL, maybe you do not know how to get to pages older than the one you are on...................see top right of this page and click the box left of the highlighted one .......let me know if you need help on the number order

 

[Dibran]

I agree that some subclade which have arisen before first mention of Albanian name can not be factually related to Albanians but I think that Illyrians are ancestors of today Albanians


I do not know historical connection between Illyrians and Albanians but the only thing that binds them is E1b subclade CTS5856 (north Albania 4700 years) and that subclade(as ancestor subclade) have every Albanian in that area.




https://yfull.com/tree/I-S17250/

formed 2600-1950 year.

It is a White Croat mutation, fact is that White Croats there are not mentioned until the 6th century however the only record from Balkans that confirms migration of someone from that area(south east Poland, south west Ukraine) is record about Croatians.

Later in the area are mentioned some Croats.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Croats

Behind this subclade I-S17250 exist different branches but only those subclade I-S17250 is a common ancestor to all Croatian subclades.

Considering that subclade I-S17250 coming from the area where White Croats are mentioned the only logical explanation is that subclade I-S17250 is White Croatian origin.




Most of the Balkans I2a have an ancestor mutation I-S17250

Porphyrogenitus in 10th century says that Croats settled Illyria, Dalmatia and Pannonia and that come from Great Croatia.

There exist and some Croatian toponyms in Macedonia and Greece

​https://www.familytreedna.com/public/I2aHapGroup/default.aspx?section=ymap

I have no doubt Albanians are largely descended from Illyrians, at least paternally(E-V13/J2b2/some R1b). Linguistically there is very little evidence for or against the connection, so until further evidence surfaces, its just going to be more of the same bs theories. I think even if there was linguistic evidence that surfaced, many neighbors would deny it for the sheer fact we are Albanians. When someone brings themselves to hate a thing, they will be too blind to see the lies they perpetuate. Its human. If people do not know how to organize their hate, and not let it overcome their decision making, they tend to run with pure desire and agenda. Even with the evidence that genetically Albanians are largely natives, whether the language is Illyrian or not, you still see people trying to deny the truth.


It depends on what the original carriers of this branch called themselves. Though, as mentioned prior, Proto-Croats are not ethnically, culturally and patrilineally the same as Modern Croats. I agree when you say(assuming it is mostly common among Croats) that Croatians themselves descend from these proto-Croatians. But, to say all with this branch are specifically Croatian would be incorrect, at least from a wording point of view. I would imagine if other Balkan peoples with this branch come directly from Modern Croatian peoples, that they should have a younger TMRCA related to this connection. However, if their TMRCA match that of the older movements of that clade, then the proper statement would be that Balkan peoples with I-S17250 are descended from Proto-Croats, rather than more recent middle age Croatians. For example, if an I2a slav only became Greek 200 years ago, then his TMRCA and mutations should reflect the shift. However, if his TMRCA dates back to the inception of the line, then it would be more appropriate to assign it to Proto-Croats. The oldest to carry this mutation was discovered in a medieval slav from Poland is this correct? Assuming this branch is part of I2-Din. If that is the same sample, then, given current evidence, I would agree with you considering where the branch was discovered.