E-V13 subclades in Greece

PaschalisB

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Location
Athens
Ethnic group
Greek
Y-DNA haplogroup
E-CTS9320
mtDNA haplogroup
U5a1b
I did some research in familytreedna and classified some subclades with surnames and places of origin where available. The Nevgen tool was very helpful in predicting some clades.
It seems the main subclades in Greece are:
  • Z5018>S2979>FGC11457 (Peloponnese including Arvanite areas)
  • Z5018>S2979>Z16659>L241 (Peloponnese)
  • Z5018>S2979>Z16659>Y3183 (Peloponnese)
  • Z5017>Z5016>CTS9320 (Thessaly, Thrace, Epirus, Syros)
  • S7461 (Peloponnese)

More samples are needed, but the general picture is that Z5018 clades are concentrated south, while Z5017 is concentrated north.

Anyone who can contribute more is welcome.
 
I have also created two maps with participants in FTDNA projects confirmed for CTS9320 and S2979

CTS9320
2s0h65z.png


S2979
210geua.png


One could notice that CTS9320 is more common in the Balkans Central and East Europe (possible spread with R1a/I2a1b-din?), while S2979 is more widespread in Europe, including the British Isles (possible spread with R1b?)
 
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Good job! I don't know how much data you have had, but I would say knowing the history, that S2979 looks like Roman soldiers from mainly Thracian and North Albania in England. CTS9320 looks Neolithic distribution
 
Good job! I don't know how much data you have had, but I would say knowing the history, that S2979 looks like Roman soldiers from mainly Thracian and North Albania in England. CTS9320 looks Neolithic distribution

Regarding Greece I have just 15 samples from various FTDNA projects.
 
CTS9320 looks Neolithic distribution

CTS9320 can't be Neolithic, since the most recent ancestor lived 2900 years before present, which is long after the Neolithic. It's more likely to be associated with the Thraco-Cimmerian culture.
 
I would say knowing the history, that S2979 looks like Roman soldiers from mainly Thracian and North Albania in England.

It think it was spread with the Urnfield Culture, the map reminds me of this culture's area a lot.
 
From what I've seen, all mainland Greece is fairly well mixed, with minimal regional differences. You might see that with more samples in your database.
 
Thanks and Great Job PaschalisB, work like this is always well appreciated, I'll say something interesting that when I nevgen predicted the Cypriot samples from the recent paper I found Y3183 and S7461 which is great see here, Possibly one of those might turn out to be a Mycenaean marker.
 
Thanks and Great Job PaschalisB, work like this is always well appreciated, I'll say something interesting that when I nevgen predicted the Cypriot samples from the recent paper I found Y3183 and S7461 which is great see here, Possibly one of those might turn out to be a Mycenaean marker.

Mycenaean or Dorian? I have come to believe S2979 was brought into Greece with the Dorians from the Northwest.
 
Mycenaean or Dorian? I have come to believe S2979 was brought into Greece with the Dorians from the Northwest.

Maybe it was brought in by both, in Cyprus there was no Doric colonies, maybe the Mycenaeans and the Dorians came from the same pre Greek location, with Y3183 being brought in by the Mycenaeans and the other S2979 (L241 and FGC11457) brought in by the Dorians? The age of S2979 is old enough at a TMRCA of 4000 ybp to have been distributed by two sources in Greece, also Y3183 seems to match a more a Mycenaean dispersal while FGC11457 (TMRCA 3200 ybp) and L241 (TMRCA 2800 ybp) seems to be matching when the Dorians settled in Greece. It fits well with the dates.
 
Maybe it was brought in by both, in Cyprus there was no Doric colonies, maybe the Mycenaeans and the Dorians came from the same pre Greek location, with Y3183 being brought in by the Mycenaeans and the other S2979 (L241 and FGC11457) brought in by the Dorians? The age of S2979 is old enough at a TMRCA of 4000 ybp to have been distributed by two sources in Greece, also Y3183 seems to match a more a Mycenaean dispersal while FGC11457 (TMRCA 3200 ybp) and L241 (TMRCA 2800 ybp) seems to be matching when the Dorians settled in Greece. It fits well with the dates.

There were Dorians in Cyprus, they arrived peacefully though, unlike they did in the greek mainland.
 
There were Dorians in Cyprus, they arrived peacefully though, unlike they did in the greek mainland.

I did not know that thanks, perhaps S2979 was all brought in by the Dorians in Greece, I also checked Albanian E-V13 to compare, S2979 appears to be 50% of Albanian E-V13 as well, it looks like maybe S2979 was born in an population that was ancestral to both the Dorians and Illyrians. S7461 right now appears to be the best candidate for Mycenaean E-V13 and despite S7461 looking like an Alpine or Northern marker it would make sense since the Mycenaeans could have carried this since they probably came directly from the Steppe and would have maybe had more Northern looking haplogroups than the later Dorians, Ionians, etc...
 
Thank you for your work Paschalis. This looks very interesting. Maybe deeper clades will be able to tell different stories. Looking forward
 
Very good topic. I hope it will lead to more Greeks doing SNP tests.
 
I did some research in familytreedna and classified some subclades with surnames and places of origin where available. The Nevgen tool was very helpful in predicting some clades.
It seems the main subclades in Greece are:
  • Z5018>S2979>FGC11457 (Peloponnese including Arvanite areas)
  • Z5018>S2979>Z16659>L241 (Peloponnese)
  • Z5018>S2979>Z16659>Y3183 (Peloponnese)
  • Z5017>Z5016>CTS9320 (Thessaly, Thrace, Epirus, Syros)
  • S7461 (Peloponnese)

More samples are needed, but the general picture is that Z5018 clades are concentrated south, while Z5017 is concentrated north.

Anyone who can contribute more is welcome.

Hello Paschalis,

Interesting information. Thanks for posting.

I am E-V13. 23andme did not break down any further. My family on both sides is from the Peloponnese.
 
Hello Paschalis,

Interesting information. Thanks for posting.

I am E-V13. 23andme did not break down any further. My family on both sides is from the Peloponnese.

Yes, 23andme doesn't break E-V13 down. If you are interested in knowing the exact clade I would suggest FTDNA's E-V68 SNP pack
 
Hello Paschalis,
Interesting information. Thanks for posting.
I am E-V13. 23andme did not break down any further. My family on both sides is from the Peloponnese.
Yes, 23andme doesn't break E-V13 down. If you are interested in knowing the exact clade I would suggest FTDNA's E-V68 SNP pack

Or FTDNA's specific E-V13 SNP Pack. But you'd have to order minimum Y-DNA12 STR test from FTDNA first.

The other more cost effective option is the YSEQ E-V13 SNP Panel: https://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?cPath=27&products_id=2486
 
I did not know that thanks, perhaps S2979 was all brought in by the Dorians in Greece, I also checked Albanian E-V13 to compare, S2979 appears to be 50% of Albanian E-V13 as well, it looks like maybe S2979 was born in an population that was ancestral to both the Dorians and Illyrians. S7461 right now appears to be the best candidate for Mycenaean E-V13 and despite S7461 looking like an Alpine or Northern marker it would make sense since the Mycenaeans could have carried this since they probably came directly from the Steppe and would have maybe had more Northern looking haplogroups than the later Dorians, Ionians, etc...

Mycenaeans show more Anatolian than steppe ancestry according to Lazaridis last paper on this matter.....


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum
 
I did some research in familytreedna and classified some subclades with surnames and places of origin where available. The Nevgen tool was very helpful in predicting some clades.
It seems the main subclades in Greece are:
  • Z5018>S2979>FGC11457 (Peloponnese including Arvanite areas)
  • Z5018>S2979>Z16659>L241 (Peloponnese)
  • Z5018>S2979>Z16659>Y3183 (Peloponnese)
  • Z5017>Z5016>CTS9320 (Thessaly, Thrace, Epirus, Syros)
  • S7461 (Peloponnese)

More samples are needed, but the general picture is that Z5018 clades are concentrated south, while Z5017 is concentrated north.

Anyone who can contribute more is welcome.

As far I can see from Croatia all these subclade have source on the border of Albania, Montenegro and Serbia(if we believe co-administrator of the FTDNA E-M35 project), subclade CTS5856(4700 year) which is probably ancestor of later Illyrian i.e Albanian mutations in that area.

We need to see which subclade exist in Greece and when they came there, if they came to Greece 4,000 years ago they probably can not be Illyric no Albanian, but if they come to Greece before 2000, 1500 or 500 years they are very likely Albanian-Illyrian origin in Greece.

I do not know Greece history and when first Greece name or tribe appears in that area ...in that age appearance of Greece names needs look for the original Greek haplotypes.

If turns out that E1b subclades are first haplotypes in Greek history it means that they in fact are Greeks origin and all branches behind them are Greeks origin.

It still does not change fact that original mutation of the Greeks is in the hills of Albania and that Greeks are with a good part of today Albanians cousins by the male line.


Everything will be known in the future.

https://postimg.org/image/4qxnhdqsb/
 

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