E-V13 subclades in Greece

Interesting thread. I am Greek with ancestors from the pelleponese. 23andMe YDNA = E-V13. I took the FTDNA Y 37 and my predicted Y-DNA haplogroup is E-M35. In discussions with some ftdna groups it is thought my downstream looks like this. I will be taking the ftdna E-V13 SNP pack to further verify the downstream subclades. Does this seem like the best next step? I am interested in the migration of my paternal side.
E-M35>>M78>>L618>V13>CTS5856
 
Interesting thread. I am Greek with ancestors from the pelleponese. 23andMe YDNA = E-V13. I took the FTDNA Y 37 and my predicted Y-DNA haplogroup is E-M35. In discussions with some ftdna groups it is thought my downstream looks like this. I will be taking the ftdna E-V13 SNP pack to further verify the downstream subclades. Does this seem like the best next step? I am interested in the migration of my paternal side.
E-M35>>M78>>L618>V13>CTS5856

If you can afford it, go for the BigY 500. It's currently on sale until August 31. I don't see many Greek E-V13 samples at YFull anyways, where you can upload your BigY results to: https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-V13/

Otherwise, the E-V13 SNP Pack will do the job to find your "terminal" SNP/subclade.
 
Thanks Trojet.
 
I have isolated E-V13 clades that as of now occur in Greeks or can be certainly identified based on STR's, and based on diversity of clades and closeness and location of their their matches I added some of my clues about their likely ancestry.

E-V13>Z1057>Y30977>Y37092/BY14151* an isolated clade without matches found in Kyklades, likely arrived in Greece in EBA, likely/possibly with Cetina people. Ancient Greek.

E-V13>Z1057>Y30977>Y37092>BY14151* (very likely a parallel clade) One Greek from Argos area seems to possibly cluster with the Serbian Vasojevici clan (7/37), but hard to say without deeper tests how distant he is to them. So he could be either Ancient Greek or Vlach.

E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>S7461>BY5022>Y150909>Y150909a - Found in Arcadia. Ancient Greek. One Asia Minor sample likely clusters with him, and might have something to do with Myceneans, though with TMRCA 3000 it boomed later. S7461 has generally highest diversity in Thrace/Bulgaria so it ultimately derives from there.

E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>Z5017>BY4684>Z19851>Z19851a - Found in a Greek from Aetolia, and based on STR's one from Pelopenesus in a study. Also found in Aromanians from Albania and Aromanian from Cogalniceanu Romania who has an identical haplotype. Certain Vlach origin.

E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>Z5017>BY4684* - Found in two Greeks from Thessaly and Greek Thrace who cluster together. Also closely matching to them on STR's are 4 Basarabi individuals from Romania (Basarabi study). A more distant BY4684* is found around Balkan mountain in Bulgaria. Vlach ancestry for this clade seems certain.

E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>Z5017>Z5016>CTS6377* - A Greek with a surname suggesting Vlach origin, clusetrs closely (4/37) with a Bulgarian from Central Balkan Mountains so he must be of Vlach ancestry.

E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>Z5017>Z5016>CTS6377>CTS9320>Z17264 - One of the most common E-V13 clades in Greece. 2 samples at YFull and also a Bulgarian sample also clusters with Greeks (dys439=9, dys448=19). Ancient Greek definitely but paternal CTS9320 has far greater diversity to the North so it likely arrived to Greece from the North in EIA. It is generally frequent in Asia Minor Greeks, Greek Macedonia, and Greek islanders. Found also on Cyprus.

E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>Z5017>Z5016>CTS6377>CTS9320>Z17107>Z38456>BY4461>Y97307 Found in a number of Greeks from Greece in various locations: Asia Minor, Peloponnesus (study). Also a few of Turks cluster with Asia Minor Greeks and ultimately Albanians. Arvanite ancestry.

E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>Z5017>Z5016>CTS6377>CTS9320>Z16988>A11837 An ethnic Greek from Southern Albania clusters closely with a Serb from Shop and a Serb from Sumadija. Likely Vlach ancestry.

E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>Z5017>Z5016>CTS6377>CTS9320* (Z16988-, Z17107-, Z17264-, S1992:cool: - One Greek from Greek Thrace, might be Ancient Greek or Thracian. He is not tested to some other newer parallel branches under CTS9320.

E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>Y35953>PF6784 - Common in Pontic Greeks, yet also have two parallel clades in Poland and Slovakia at TMRCA of 3400, indicating it too arrived from the North in MBA/LBA. Ancient Greek.

E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>Z5018>S2979>FGC33621>A10158 - Found in a Greek from Western Crete. Clusters with an American. Ancient Greek but parallel clades are found in Northern Albania as well as in Central Bulgaria. TMRCA of 2900 ybp suggests arrival to Greece from the North in EIA.

E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>Z5018>S2979>FGC11451>FGC11450>Y146086 Found in a Greek from Aetolia and another Greek. They closely cluster with Albanians. Arvanite ancestry.

E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>Z5018>S2979>FGC11451>FGC11450* (DYS458=14/DYS460=10) Found in a Greek from Euboia and one Greek from Phocaea. They closely cluster with Albanians. Arvanite ancestry.

E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>Z5018>S2979>Z16659>Y3183* - based on specific STR's found in a number of Greeks from Corinthia and Greek Macedonia. They cluster closely with a Macedonian (tested at Y37 and SNP confirmed as Y3183*), Romanian, Hungarian and a Bulgarian. Considering the diversity of Y3183 in Bulgaria they probably have Vlach ancestry, also some Aromanian samples might cluster with them, but Aromanians lack certain important STR's to assign them to this clade with certainty.

E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>Z5018>S2979>Z16659>Y3183>S2972>Z16661>S2978 - Found in several Greeks from Messinia, Peloponnesus. Very likely Ancient Greek but considering diversity of Z16661 north of Greece it likely arrived to greece in LBA or EIA. Some Eastern and Sardinian samples might fit into Greek colonisation.

E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>Z5018>S2979>Z16659>Y3183>S2972>A7135>A7136 - Found in a Greek from Laconia. Very likely Ancient Greek, yet the high diversity of BY5430 (under A7135) in Central-Eastern Balkans clearly suggests the origin from the North (Eastern Balkans) and arrival to Greece in EIA.

E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>Z5018>S2979>Z16659>L241 - Two Greeks are L241+ but without deeper tests. One from Messinia and one from Arcadia (?). Likely Ancient Greeks had their own specific clades of L241. Additionally a significant percentage of Cypriot E-V13 from studies is certainly related to a Cypriot Greek who tested Y37 and who seems almost certainly L241. Based on some STR's they might belong to L241>Z38770 subclade. L241 has plenty of diversity in more Northern areas of the Balkan so it seems Greek L241 arrived to Greece in EIA.

E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>Y16729* - One Greek clusters closely with a Macedonian and a number of Aromanians. Vlach ancestry.

Edit:
E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273* (Z16663-, S3003-, S7461-, PH1246-, Z5017-, Z5018-, Y16729-, Y19509-, BY6527-, FGC14092-) - I forgot one Cypriot who doesn't cluster with anyone, so Ancient Greek with likely older MBA presence in Greece.

Additionally
E-CTS1273* YF12550 is an ethnic Bulgarian from N.Greece, not a Greek.
E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>Y19508* found in Malta might have something to do with Ancient Greeks.


Generally it seems most of Ancient Greek V13's arrived to Greece in LBA-EIA timeframe.
 
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I have isolated E-V13 clades that as of now occur in Greeks or can be certainly identified based on STR's, and based on diversity of clades and closeness and location of their their matches I added some of my clues about their likely ancestry.

E-V13>Z1057>Y30977>Y37092/BY14151* an isolated clade without matches found in Kyklades, likely arrived in Greece in EBA, likely/possibly with Cetina people. Ancient Greek.

E-V13>Z1057>Y30977>Y37092>BY14151* (very likely a parallel clade) One Greek from Argos area seems to possibly cluster with the Serbian Vasojevici clan (7/37), but hard to say without deeper tests how distant he is to them. So he could be either Ancient Greek or Vlach.

E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>S7461>BY5022>Y150909>Y150909a - Found in Arcadia. Ancient Greek. One Asia Minor sample likely clusters with him, and might have something to do with Myceneans, though with TMRCA 3000 it boomed later. S7461 has generally highest diversity in Thrace/Bulgaria so it ultimately derives from there.

E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>Z5017>BY4684>Z19851>Z19851a - Found in a Greek from Aetolia, and based on STR's one from Pelopenesus in a study. Also found in Aromanians from Albania and Aromanian from Cogalniceanu Romania who has an identical haplotype. Certain Vlach origin.

E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>Z5017>BY4684* - Found in two Greeks from Thessaly and Greek Thrace who cluster together. Also closely matching to them on STR's are 4 Basarabi individuals from Romania (Basarabi study). A more distant BY4684* is found around Balkan mountain in Bulgaria. Vlach ancestry for this clade seems certain.

E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>Z5017>Z5016>CTS6377* - A Greek with a surname suggesting Vlach origin, clusetrs closely (4/37) with a Bulgarian from Central Balkan Mountains so he must be of Vlach ancestry.

E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>Z5017>Z5016>CTS6377>CTS9320>Z17264 - One of the most common E-V13 clades in Greece. 2 samples at YFull and also a Bulgarian sample also clusters with Greeks (dys439=9, dys448=19). Ancient Greek definitely but paternal CTS9320 has far greater diversity to the North so it likely arrived to Greece from the North in EIA. It is generally frequent in Asia Minor Greeks, Greek Macedonia, and Greek islanders. Found also on Cyprus.

E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>Z5017>Z5016>CTS6377>CTS9320>Z17107>Z38456>BY4461>Y97307 Found in a number of Greeks from Greece in various locations: Asia Minor, Peloponnesus (study). Also a few of Turks cluster with Asia Minor Greeks and ultimately Albanians. Arvanite ancestry.

E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>Z5017>Z5016>CTS6377>CTS9320>Z16988>A11837 An ethnic Greek from Southern Albania clusters closely with a Serb from Shop and a Croat. Vlach ancestry.

E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>Z5017>Z5016>CTS6377>CTS9320* (Z16988-, Z17107-, Z17264-, S1992:cool: - One Greek from Greek Thrace, might be Ancient Greek or Thracian. He is not tested to some other newer parallel branches under CTS9320.

E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>Y35953>PF6784 - Common in Pontic Greeks, yet also have two parallel clades in Poland and Slovakia at TMRCA of 3400, indicating it too arrived from the North in MBA/LBA. Ancient Greek.

E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>Z5018>S2979>FGC33621>A10158 - Found in a Greek from Eastern Crete. Clusters with an American. Ancient Greek but parallel clades are found in Northern Albania as well as in Central Bulgaria. TMRCA of 2900 ybp suggests arrival to Greece from the North in EIA.

E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>Z5018>S2979>FGC11451>FGC11450>Y146086 Found in a Greek from Aetolia and another Greek. They closely cluster with Albanians. Arvanite ancestry.

E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>Z5018>S2979>FGC11451>FGC11450* (DYS458=14/DYS460=10) Found in a Greek from Euboia and one Greek from Phocaea. They closely cluster with Albanians. Arvanite ancestry.

E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>Z5018>S2979>Z16659>Y3183* - based on specific STR's found in a number of Greeks from Corinthia and Greek Macedonia. They cluster closely with a Macedonian (tested at Y37 and SNP confirmed as Y3183*), Romanian, Hungarian and a Bulgarian. Considering the diversity of Y3183 in Bulgaria they probably have Vlach ancestry, also some Aromanian samples might cluster with them, but Aromanians lack certain important STR's to assigned them to this clade with certainty.

E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>Z5018>S2979>Z16659>Y3183>S2972>Z16661>S2978 - Found in several Greeks from Messinia, Peloponnesus. Likely Ancient Greek but considering diversity of Z16661 north of Greece it likely arrived to greece in LBA or EIA. Some Eastern and Sardinian samples might fit into Greek colonisation.

E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>Z5018>S2979>Z16659>Y3183>S2972>A7135>A7136 - Found in a Greek from Laconia. Likely Ancient Greek, yet the high diversity of BY5430 (under A7135) in Central-Eastern Balkans clearly suggests the origin from the North (Eastern Balkans) and arrival to Greece in EIA.

E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>Z5018>S2979>Z16659>L241 - Two Greeks are L241+ but without deeper tests. One from Messinia and one from Arcadia (?). Likely Ancient Greeks had their own specific clades of L241. Additionally a significant percentage of Cypriot E-V13 from studies is certainly related to a Cypriot Greek who tested Y37 and who seems almost certainly L241. Based on some STR's they might belong to L241>Z38770 subclade. L241 has plenty of diversity in more Northern areas of the Balkan so it seems Greek L241 arrived to Greece in EIA.

E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>Y16729* - One Greek clusters closely with a Macedonian and a number of Aromanians. Vlach ancestry.


Additionally
E-CTS1273* YF12550 is an ethnic Bulgarian from N.Greece, not a Greek.
E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>Y19508* found in Malta might have something to do with Ancient Greeks.


Generally it seems most of Ancient Greek V13's arrived to Greece in LBA-EIA timeframe.

A very high quality post with lots to reflect on. The Dorian invasions that put an end to the Mycenean culture are being confirmed basically on the y-dna level also. Linguist Kretschmer believed the Dorian invasions and Sea Peoples to be either the same event or intertwined somehow.
 
Obviously the LBA - EIA relates to the Dorian Invasion period:


3LLsUNL.jpg
 
E-V13>Z1057>Y30977>Y37092>BY14151* (very likely a parallel clade) One Greek from Argos area seems to possibly cluster with the Serbian Vasojevici clan (7/37), but hard to say without deeper tests how distant he is to them. So he could be either Ancient Greek or Vlach.

E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>Z5017>Z5016>CTS6377>CTS9320>Z16988>A11837 An ethnic Greek from Southern Albania clusters closely with a Serb from Shop and a Croat. Vlach ancestry.
Great post as always!

Although the 2 clusters above indicate more an Albanian origin rather than Vlach. The area of Vasojevici is the border region of the Albanian clans and the region of Argolis has always had a very strong Arvanite presence.

As for A11837, its current location makes it a Western Balkan/Illyrian rather than a Vlach/Thracian cluster but both scenarios are possible as there's indeed a Eastern Balkan influx into South Albania.
 
A very high quality post with lots to reflect on. The Dorian invasions that put an end to the Mycenean culture are being confirmed basically on the y-dna level also. Linguist Kretschmer believed the Dorian invasions and Sea Peoples to be either the same event or intertwined somehow.


Thank you, Greek V13's haven't received much attention, partially because not too many Greeks are tested for specific clades, but I managed to collect all those that are, and in few cases some can be predicted with certainty.


Well its quite obvious that most of legitimately Greek E-V13's are post-Mycenean, and in many cases that won't change as many of these clades have already much greater diversity North of Greece.
I actually noticed as I was writing that this new guy from Crete appeared who is distantly related to you.
It's a done deal I think that at least some of these V13 clades are Dorian.


Actually I noticed in addition to two Greek L241+ and one Cypriot almost certain L241 (who represents approx. 3.2 % of all Cypriot so a good portion of Cypriot V13) 3 additional Greeks are on Y37 very likely to be L241. Their known locations are Messinia, Kymi-Evvia and Gortynia, Arcadia. So it seems strong in Peloponnese, few of Greek L241 might be Arvanite but likely a minority.


Of particular interest to me is the tested Pappas from Kastania in Laconia. I guess they should be descended of Maniots and therefore are good candidates for Spartan descent! I have not seen their STR's but they are confirmed Z5018>S2979>Z16659>Y3183>S2972>A7135>A7136 and this clade almost certainly has nothing to do with Arvanites. As I've said because A7135>Y18360>BY5430 seems firmly established in Central-Eastern Balkans and they separated 2800 ybp from others it is certain that this Greek arrived in Greece in EIA. Unless ofc they are Vlach, but I havent found these E-BY5423 haplotypes that much to the South.
 
Great post as always!

Although the 2 clusters above indicate more an Albanian origin rather than Vlach. The area of Vasojevici is the border region of the Albanian clans and the region of Argolis has always had a very strong Arvanite presence.

As for A11837, its current location makes it a Western Balkan/Illyrian rather than a Vlach/Thracian cluster but both scenarios are possible as there's indeed a Eastern Balkan influx into South Albania.

Thanks cousin!


Well there was a tradition of Vasojevici being related to Malesor tribes, but this old tradition about brothers Vaso, Pipo, Kraso, Hot and Ozro obviously was some attempt to form closer inter-tribal connections as all of these have different genetics.


In Herzegovina study several families who descend of Medieval Vlach Bobani clan from Herzegovina (read here about them https://hrcak.srce.hr/137735) came out with similar haplotypes to Vasojevici. Additionally there is a group of families in Western Bosnia who are related to Vasojevici and they have been there since 16th centruy at least and they have no tradition about being descendants of Vasojevici. Also there is a specific haplotype certainly related to Vasojevici with dys458=13, and it is found in Croats and even in a single Slovenian!
Further the largest tribal subgroup of Vasojevici Rajevici fortunately seem to have a mutation of their own: GATAH4=10 (drop from 11), and in a study of 404 haplotypes from Montenegro this can be seen as 2/3 of Vasojevici haplotypes have GATAH4=10. The point is: where you have tribal Vasojevici you have GATAH4=10. Yet in Herzegovina, Bosnia, and Croatia these do not exist. On the other hand Bobani and dys458=13 in Montenegro do not exist. So the question is are these Bosnian/Croatian haplotypes descended from Montenegro or the opposite? Had these Bobani Vlachs, W.Bosnians, Croats, Slovenians descended of Vasojevici they would have had lots of GATAH4=10 who are majority of tribal Vasojevici. They have none. That indicates tribal Vasojevici are a newer subclade and that they descend of them. Vasojevici had a tradition of Herzegovina descent and also among Vasojevici in 1485 a person with a Herzegovic surname was recorded (1485 defter of Shkoder- S.Pulaha).


I think two of Vasojevici ordered Dante NGS tests, I suggested some of these Bosnian, Croatian haplotypes do the same and then it will be obvious who descends of whom. I think Vasojevici descend from more Western area (Herzegovina) and they might actually descend of Illyrian tribes like Liburnians.


This Greek (kit B2390) is from Tripoli and his ancestor was first mentioned in early 19th century. He's 7/37 with Vasojevici but for PH1246 it is usually hard to judge the distance at 37 STR's.. With 111 STR's it would be much clearer how close he is.


About A11837, this guy from Shop is a member here (Shetop), well Shop actually is more Tribalian, and maybe this particular clade is descended of them. I think CTS9320 has several affinities, including Dacian, Triballian, Illyrian and some like Z17264 Greek. So I wouldn't consider it "Thracian" in a narrow sense. (though Dacians and Triballians in broader sense are Thracian).
 
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Thanks cousin!


Well there was a tradition of Vasojevici being related to Malesor tribes, but this old tradition about brothers Vaso, Pipo, Kraso, Hot and Ozro obviously was some attempt to form closer inter-tribal connections as all of these have different genetics.


In Herzegovina study several families who descend of Medieval Vlach Bobani clan from Herzegovina (read here about them https://hrcak.srce.hr/137735) came out with similar haplotypes to Vasojevici. Additionally there is a group of families in Western Bosnia who are related to Vasojevici and they have been there since 16th centruy at least and they have no tradition about being descendants of Vasojevici. Also there is a specific haplotype certainly related to Vasojevici with dys458=13, and it is found in Croats and even in a single Slovenian!
Further the largest tribal subgroup of Vasojevici Rajevici fortunately seem to have a mutation of their own: GATAH4=10 (drop from 11), and in a study of 404 haplotypes from Montenegro this can be seen as 2/3 of Vasojevici haplotypes have GATAH4=10. The point is: where you have tribal Vasojevici you have GATAH4=10. Yet in Herzegovina, Bosnia, and Croatia these do not exist. On the other hand Bobani and dys458=13 in Montenegro do not exist. So the question is are these Bosnian/Croatian haplotypes descended from Montenegro or the opposite? Had these Bobani Vlachs, W.Bosnians, Croats, Slovenians descended of Vasojevici they would have had lots of GATAH4=10 who are majority of tribal Vasojevici. They have none. That indicates tribal Vasojevici are a newer subclade and that they descend of them. Vasojevici had a tradition of Herzegovina descent and also among Vasojevici in 1485 a person with a Herzegovic surname was recorded (1485 defter of Shkoder- S.Pulaha).


I think two of Vasojevici ordered Dante NGS tests, I suggested some of these Bosnian, Croatian haplotypes do the same and then it will be obvious who descends of whom. I think Vasojevici descend from more Western area (Herzegovina) and they might actually descend of Illyrian tribes like Liburnians.


This Greek (kit B2390) is from Tripoli and his ancestor was first mentioned in early 19th century. He's 7/37 with Vasojevici but for PH1246 it is usually hard to judge the distance at 37 STR's.. With 111 STR's it would be much clearer how close he is.


About A11837, this guy from Shop is a member here (Shetop), well Shop actually is more Tribalian, and maybe this particular clade is descended of them. I think CTS9320 has several affinities, including Dacian, Triballian, Illyrian and some like Z17264 Greek. So I wouldn't consider it "Thracian" in a narrow sense. (though Dacians and Triballians in broader sense are Thracian).
Haha hello cousin!

It makes sense what you're saying about the Vasojevic and obviously all those tribes in Montenegro are not related to each other as the legend says, but they all do come from Herzegovina and what's interesting is that in the case of Hoti I think they did find Vlachs when they came to their current location.

I hope more and more Greeks test for deeper clades together with Albanians and other Balkanites as we're currently seeing many interesting results.

The guy from Shop could be a Triballian, Moesian, Dardanian, etc. as that population gave birth to many Albanians as well but as always we'll have to wait and see if other people share the same clade.
 
Do you have any opinions on those of us who are E-V13-BY14151/14160 who are not Greek but South Italian on the paternal side? Is it likely Greek migrations to the south of the country during the Magna Graecia days?
 
Haha hello cousin!

It makes sense what you're saying about the Vasojevic and obviously all those tribes in Montenegro are not related to each other as the legend says, but they all do come from Herzegovina and what's interesting is that in the case of Hoti I think they did find Vlachs when they came to their current location.

I hope more and more Greeks test for deeper clades together with Albanians and other Balkanites as we're currently seeing many interesting results.

The guy from Shop could be a Triballian, Moesian, Dardanian, etc. as that population gave birth to many Albanians as well but as always we'll have to wait and see if other people share the same clade.

Hoti found Albanian-speakers there, when they moved to where they are. Their own legends confirm this.

Some Montenegro clans may be from Herzegovina but probably not the majority, at least not from the clan-forming period 400-700 years ago. Many of these clans seem to relate to others in Montenegro or in Northern Albania.
 
Do you have any opinions on those of us who are E-V13-BY14151/14160 who are not Greek but South Italian on the paternal side? Is it likely Greek migrations to the south of the country during the Magna Graecia days?

I think connection with Greek colonies is a possibility but I will be very cautious when it comes to E-V13-BY14151: because I still think V13 likely started its expansion within Cetina culture and I believe that can be seen best through E-Y37092.

I've seen one South Italian PH1246 looking haplotype with possible matches on Greek islands. His kit is N23509, he has dys607=13 + dys389=14-31 (modal for PH1246):
13 23 13 10 16-16 11 14 11 31 15 14 20 11 17 10 ?? N23509 Gizzeria Catanzaro Padovese
460=9, 607=13
13 23 13 10 16-17 11 14 11 31 ?? 14 ?? ?? ?? 10 ?? Sterea Ellada, Greece [Greek]
13 23 13 10 16-17 ?? 14 11 31 ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? Chios, Greece [Greek]
13 23 13 10 16-17 ?? 14 11 31 ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? Chios, Greece [Greek]
13 23 13 10 16-17 ?? 14 11 31 ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? Chios, Greece [Greek]
13 23 13 10 16-17 ?? 14 11 32 ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? Chios, Greece [Greek]
13 23 13 10 ??-?? 11 14 11 31 15 14 20 11 16 10 22 Euboea, Greece [Greek]
460=10, 388=12, A10=13,
13 23 13 10 16-17 11 14 11 31 16 14 20 11 16 10 23 Albania [Albanian]

As you can see lot of Greek samples might cluster with him (due to back mutation at dys390 (23) + additionally dys439=11 (which is also modal for Vasojevici)), in addition to one Albanian, but in this instance because the island of Chios should be firmly Greek and this Albanian being isolated it could be another ancient Greek cluster. So I hope N23509 does some SNP and deeper tests..

However for the Italian YF16004 because he seems to have no matches in the Balkans he would fit as a Cetina people immigrant so imo likely presence there for 4000+ years. So Italian PH1246 are very useful for Cetina hypothesis about the origin of V13, because it did have outposts in Italy as well (Cetina pottery found in Altamura, Rodi Garganico, Coppa Nevigata..) like it did in Greece. CTS1273 on the other hand did not spread directly with that culture, it seems to have wandered off.
 
I think connection with Greek colonies is a possibility but I will be very cautious when it comes to E-V13-BY14151: because I still think V13 likely started its expansion within Cetina culture and I believe that can be seen best through E-Y37092.
I've seen one South Italian PH1246 looking haplotype with possible matches on Greek islands. His kit is N23509, he has dys607=13 + dys389=14-31 (modal for PH1246):
13 23 13 10 16-16 11 14 11 31 15 14 20 11 17 10 ?? N23509 Gizzeria Catanzaro Padovese
460=9, 607=13
13 23 13 10 16-17 11 14 11 31 ?? 14 ?? ?? ?? 10 ?? Sterea Ellada, Greece [Greek]
13 23 13 10 16-17 ?? 14 11 31 ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? Chios, Greece [Greek]
13 23 13 10 16-17 ?? 14 11 31 ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? Chios, Greece [Greek]
13 23 13 10 16-17 ?? 14 11 31 ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? Chios, Greece [Greek]
13 23 13 10 16-17 ?? 14 11 32 ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? Chios, Greece [Greek]
13 23 13 10 ??-?? 11 14 11 31 15 14 20 11 16 10 22 Euboea, Greece [Greek]
460=10, 388=12, A10=13,
13 23 13 10 16-17 11 14 11 31 16 14 20 11 16 10 23 Albania [Albanian]
As you can see lot of Greek samples might cluster with him (due to back mutation at dys390 (23) + additionally dys439=11 (which is also modal for Vasojevici)), in addition to one Albanian, but in this instance because the island of Chios should be firmly Greek and this Albanian being isolated it could be another ancient Greek cluster. So I hope N23509 does some SNP and deeper tests..
However for the Italian YF16004 because he seems to have no matches in the Balkans he would fit as a Cetina people immigrant so imo likely presence there for 4000+ years. So Italian PH1246 are very useful for Cetina hypothesis about the origin of V13, because it did have outposts in Italy as well (Cetina pottery found in Altamura, Rodi Garganico, Coppa Nevigata..) like it did in Greece. CTS1273 on the other hand did not spread directly with that culture, it seems to have wandered off.

I'm starting to think that perhaps J-L283 might be a better fit for the Cetina Culture, or might've been the more common Y-haplogroup, especially since now it has also appeared in LBA Sardinia. (PS. Since J-L283 wasn't found there from an earlier period, this would be consistent with the idea that it didn't expand from Sardinia ;) but this is besides the point).

Anyways, looking forward to the upcoming large Italian aDNA study, and see what we get there.
 
I think connection with Greek colonies is a possibility but I will be very cautious when it comes to E-V13-BY14151: because I still think V13 likely started its expansion within Cetina culture and I believe that can be seen best through E-Y37092.

I've seen one South Italian PH1246 looking haplotype with possible matches on Greek islands. His kit is N23509, he has dys607=13 + dys389=14-31 (modal for PH1246):
13 23 13 10 16-16 11 14 11 31 15 14 20 11 17 10 ?? N23509 Gizzeria Catanzaro Padovese
460=9, 607=13
13 23 13 10 16-17 11 14 11 31 ?? 14 ?? ?? ?? 10 ?? Sterea Ellada, Greece [Greek]
13 23 13 10 16-17 ?? 14 11 31 ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? Chios, Greece [Greek]
13 23 13 10 16-17 ?? 14 11 31 ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? Chios, Greece [Greek]
13 23 13 10 16-17 ?? 14 11 31 ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? Chios, Greece [Greek]
13 23 13 10 16-17 ?? 14 11 32 ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? Chios, Greece [Greek]
13 23 13 10 ??-?? 11 14 11 31 15 14 20 11 16 10 22 Euboea, Greece [Greek]
460=10, 388=12, A10=13,
13 23 13 10 16-17 11 14 11 31 16 14 20 11 16 10 23 Albania [Albanian]

As you can see lot of Greek samples might cluster with him (due to back mutation at dys390 (23) + additionally dys439=11 (which is also modal for Vasojevici)), in addition to one Albanian, but in this instance because the island of Chios should be firmly Greek and this Albanian being isolated it could be another ancient Greek cluster. So I hope N23509 does some SNP and deeper tests..

However for the Italian YF16004 because he seems to have no matches in the Balkans he would fit as a Cetina people immigrant so imo likely presence there for 4000+ years. So Italian PH1246 are very useful for Cetina hypothesis about the origin of V13, because it did have outposts in Italy as well (Cetina pottery found in Altamura, Rodi Garganico, Coppa Nevigata..) like it did in Greece. CTS1273 on the other hand did not spread directly with that culture, it seems to have wandered off.
YF16004 is my kit :)
 
I'm starting to think that perhaps J-L283 might be a better fit for the Cetina Culture, or might've been the more common Y-haplogroup, especially since now it has also appeared in LBA Sardinia. (PS. Since J-L283 wasn't found there from an earlier period, this would be consistent with the idea that it didn't expand from Sardinia ;) but this is besides the point).

Anyways, looking forward to the upcoming large Italian aDNA study, and see what we get there.

Well J-L283 might have been involved too with Cetina as Rafc suggested. But there are some problems for that: 1) Dalmatian L283 is not from Cetina but Dinara/Posusje culture, according to views of archaeologists these two had different origins, although they coexisted for a period of time, they mostly had limited trade contacts. And actually both had connections with Italy.

Going by new Sardinian samples, L283 is Nuragic there, it's one of new hg's though it's somewhat mysterious why these basal clades are so common there. I think indeed Sardinian L283 might be related to Sherden or Sea Peoples as Johane Derite suggested earlier. I guess some L283's might be found in that study too.

E-V13 is a great fit for Cetina because of the fact that it developed in precisely the area where E-L618 was found in Early Neolithic and it had certainly this element. Also Cardial Neolithic does have connection with L618, other continental neolithic cultures could have hardly had E-V13 (also based on archaeological evidence) except possibly Trypillia where some M78 was found. The other reason is that in the Bubanj Hum III and Armenochori cultures which are partially derived from Cetina (though not being Cetina), ware similar to Minyan were found, and Minyan ware is associated with early speakers of Greek. E-V13 is common and diverse in Greece, L283 much less so, and a number of those are Vlach/Arvanite, likely more so than E-V13.

Problem for Cetina is the fact that E-CTS1273 seems to have appeared in Eastern Balkans in BA and it wasn't there before (because there is hardly any PH1246 there and likely won't be either based on STR's), so this branch could have hardly expanded with classic Cetina culture but part might have with Bubanj Hum III etc.. There are some other reasons why at least basal V13 is likely involved with Cetina..



YF16004 is my kit :)

I remember you, I think you should look for these haplotypes with dys385b=21. People like Swiss 63695, English 71088 or even Russian 228894 (he has 20), or Albanian IN43874 who has 21 also. None of them are close to you but you might share an SNP with some of those based on that STR.
 
Aspurg, you have done good job on isolating clades found among Greeks. I absolutely believe that even tho i didnt double check them. But i have to say that i am a bit critic over some of thesis you have put out there.
I know that you are fair guy and you want to find the truth going by the scientific facts. Just i am afraid that you did some non intentional technical mistakes when trying to interpret origin of some specific E-v13 clades in this case. And that is not as easy to do as it seems in beginning, we can try to label them like that but there will be a way too high chance of mistake when looking realistically at possibilities. Looking at living samples and trying to conclude their origin in that way is very risky.
My critics go mostly first to methodology used in order to try to find time of arrival, in this case going strictly by TMRCA (you concluded LBA-EIA, i say its more likely EBA I II III, just as all other IE, so not a big difference just lower TMRCA makes you think its later arrival which is not and does not have to be a case ). Second is fact that ancient Greek clades do not represent modern Greek clades its very hard to know the origin going by TMRCA and living samples. Also i dont understand why you only included Arvanite and Vlach possibility. Arvanite can only confuse you because its only one group of Albanians while you cant label all Albanians in Greece as Arvanites. They can be Cameria Albanians, Northern or Western ones. Also we can conclude that Illyrians but Albanians also migrated to Greek since ancient times, so to label all groups Arvanite i think its wrong. What is more fair is to label Arvanite only these that are aprox 1000 years or less GD from Albanians as Arvanites or these that declare as Arvanites but to avoid all these possibilities and still stay on the track i believe that label: Albano-Illyrian origin would suffice for all Albanian related groups no matter time or arrival and origin. Second are Vlachs so, i dont see any sense in labeling some group as Vlach only except if its not actual Aromun group with TMRCA no larger then 1000 years (when Aromanian and Romanian split one from another). So when Vlach/Aromun etnos probably started to live also separate from Romanian. But still, going by major Aromun study Bosch et al, they concluded (which is clear to see) that there is in fact no "Vlach origin", they are not even connected to Italians for that matter and genetically it could not be proven. But rather, they are latinized natives (Indoeuropeans, paleo-balkan population), more specifically mix of ancient Greeks, Illyrians, Thracians and later arriving Slavs. So even tho isolated, Aromuns are still native to the Balkans and are most likely one of previously mentioned origin.

So groups that would make more sense are: Greek, Thracian, Italic, Dacian and Albano-Illyrian. Furthermore any of them could have become a Vlach but i would label Vlach only these that are at maximum of 1000 years far from Aromuns. But more further away both Romanian and Aromanian sample could be Dacian, Thracian or Illyrian, even Hellenic in origin. Cetina label was also very speculative.
I think that most fair label for all these groups is Paleo-Balkan IE origin which would include ancient Greeks, Illyrians, Thracians, Dacians and other groups.. Even Italic tribes.

What really interests me is how do you interpret your own line Aspurg? like you pointed origin in these Greek lines, and giving the possibilities you offered you would have to be Arvanite or Vlach, but i think truth is something else. So i would like to hear your explanation about your line giving that you are also E-v13 from the Balkans? Do you match Lakic, you are Bosnian Serb right?
 
So yes, i believe that L618 and E-v13 are both Neolithic European haplogroups. L618 found in Neolithic Spain and Balkans, and both L618 and V13 having exclusively European distribution must have belong to Neolithic Europe and by origin and language they were Afro-Asiatic also known as Hamito Semitic, furthermore they for sure mixed with Europeans at that time groups like I1, I2, and other paleolithic remains. Furthermore possibly forming a separate language like Basques is today or continued a version of Afro Asiatic language brought by Middle East. Furthermore they would be isolated or rare European population until only one part of these Neolithic E-v13s joins Proto IEs. Specifically BY6550, Y30977, and CTS5856. TMRCA 4800 ybp. And they would become as Maciamo says probably a major elite force among IE Bronze Age expansion.

Therefore even tho all living E-v13 today is out of IE BA expansion with most likely having their main base setup at Balkans. Their prior origin is out of N Africa, thru Middle East into the Europe probably 12 000 years ago (L618 formed date) speaking some sort of Afro-Asiatic>Semitic (Hamito Semitic) language. They are lost in bottleneck today, just like plenty of other paleolithic and neolithic groups with IE arrival. Major loss in TMRCA can be seen in haplogroup I1, but we know many other European Neolithic haplogroups reduced while IE BA haplogroups expanded.
 
A very high quality post with lots to reflect on. The Dorian invasions that put an end to the Mycenean culture are being confirmed basically on the y-dna level also. Linguist Kretschmer believed the Dorian invasions and Sea Peoples to be either the same event or intertwined somehow.


With all due respect, i dont see how this would prove anything, since both Dorians and Myceneans had E-v13. Modern display of Albanian or for this matter Greek lines is just a product of centuries of bottlenecks (dying without leaving progeny) and founder effects, rapid expansions of whats left and so on. Also mutual way of assimilation and migrations. Dorians and both Myceneans were Ancient Greeks and Indo-Europeans and for sure had E-v13, there was plenty of wars later, Alexander the Great, Persians, Illyrians and so on, you cant look at modern haplos of living people and their TMRCA and conclude that it proves something about some people 3000 years ago...


Haha hello cousin!

It makes sense what you're saying about the Vasojevic and obviously all those tribes in Montenegro are not related to each other as the legend says, but they all do come from Herzegovina


He never said that but rather he made a question and i think this question suffices, but your answer also to be quoted into a entry post of new thread about this topic.
I only dont understand why do not Albanian admins primarily Flor and Skerdi interact when someone writes such a disinformation's based on a weak knowledge.
 
With all due respect, i dont see how this would prove anything, since both Dorians and Myceneans had E-v13. Modern display of Albanian or for this matter Greek lines is just a product of centuries of bottlenecks (dying without leaving progeny) and founder effects, rapid expansions of whats left and so on. Also mutual way of assimilation and migrations. Dorians and both Myceneans were Ancient Greeks and Indo-Europeans and for sure had E-v13, there was plenty of wars later, Alexander the Great, Persians, Illyrians and so on, you cant look at modern haplos of living people and their TMRCA and conclude that it proves something about some people 3000 years ago...


He never said that but rather he made a question and i think this question suffices, but your answer also to be quoted into a entry post of new thread about this topic.
I only dont understand why do not Albanian admins primarily Flor and Skerdi interact when someone writes such a disinformation's based on a weak knowledge.
What in hell are you talking about? Just PM me in Albanian.

I simply said that what he said about Vasojevic makes sense and that now we finally have evidence that Hoti, Krasniqi, Vasojevic, etc. were not brothers. Where's the disinformation?

Besides, you're the guy (Dema of The Apricity) that claims that E-V13 Albanians have African or as you say "bumpy" noses and lips and only you J2 Elite Race are so handsome to look upon.

Too hurt that you got a ME J2-M205* and turned that hatred towards E-V13 Albanians because of us being a dominant group?

Back to TA and stop bothering Aspurg too. He's a nice guy and he'll probably take his time to answer your nonsense so I hope he reads this first.

Aspurg didn't label all the E-V13 Arvanite but since they were found among Greeks who are very close to and share the same deep clades with Albanians, therefore they must be Arvanite clades in Greece. He didn't rename the clade.

Second, we know that Vlachs in Greece came mostly from Eastern Balkans so no point of wasting time again.

Third, you seem so keen to connect us "bumpy nosed and lips E-V13" with Afro-Asiatic languages. Is it because your haplogroup is originally Arab that you want all of us to be of Afro-Asiatic origin so that you don't feel lonely and alienated?

And change your flag to Kosovo you're not from Albania.
 

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