E-V13 subclades in Greece

That means nothing, E is ~65,200 years old whilst E-V13 is only ~8,100 years old. You can't compare the two. The TMRCA of V13 (~4,800ybp) correlates well with the IE Bronze Age expansions.

It means the people who carried the E clades from which EV13 people descend were
Neolithic farmers

Do you know by the way what Arber means?

Are means Land and ber means work

Arber is the one who works the land thus Farmer or Peasant

In Greek this is the Arvanitis.

Arvaino (i work on the fields)
 
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We know that the E-V13 haplogroup is a subclade of the E-M78, I remind you that this one is native to the Maghreb, and that some scientists think that the E-V13 would have mutated in Anatolia or in the Middle East see even in Central Europe, it is also written that the E-V13 came during the Bronze Age in the Balkans, little reminder the culture of Vucedol is not J (native to the Caucasus and Middle East) nor E but R1b , the proto-Illyrians was undoubtedly R1b, we do not know moreover the genetics of the Illyrians some think that they are I others G others R or J and E, and the term Illyria does not designate a nation but a Roman administration, the tribes that lived there were not only haplogroup E but J, R and even G.
 
It means the people who carried the E clades from which EV13 people descend were
Neolithic farmers

Do you know by the way what Arber means?

Are means Land and ber means work

Arber is the one who works the land thus Farmer or Peasant

In Greek this is the Arvanitis.

Arvaino (i work on the fields)

as alba means earth and white
 
we cannot say that the albanians are 100% descendant of the illyrians, because no scientific material evidence confirms that the illyrians were indeed from E or J or even I, serbs also have the right to claim offspring from illyrians, we know that the I-M170 originates from southern Europe and that the I2a (thus the Serbian subclade descends) is already traced back to the culture of starčevo

I would say this is my opinion, the peoples of the balkans are all both indigenous and arrivals in several waves
 
we cannot say that the albanians are 100% descendant of the illyrians, because no scientific material evidence confirms that the illyrians were indeed from E or J or even I, serbs also have the right to claim offspring from illyrians, we know that the I-M170 originates from southern Europe and that the I2a (thus the Serbian subclade descends) is already traced back to the culture of starčevo
I would say this is my opinion, the peoples of the balkans are all both indigenous and arrivals in several waves

We know that the E-V13 haplogroup is a subclade of the E-M78, I remind you that this one is native to the Maghreb, and that some scientists think that the E-V13 would have mutated in Anatolia or in the Middle East see even in Central Europe, it is also written that the E-V13 came during the Bronze Age in the Balkans, little reminder the culture of Vucedol is not J (native to the Caucasus and Middle East) nor E but R1b , the proto-Illyrians was undoubtedly R1b, we do not know moreover the genetics of the Illyrians some think that they are I others G others R or J and E, and the term Illyria does not designate a nation but a Roman administration, the tribes that lived there were not only haplogroup E but J, R and even G.

As far as I know I and G were in Europe thousands upon thousands of years before Illyrians. While almost all I2a-Dinaric subclades today found in the Balkans have TMRCA compatible with 7th century movement of Slavs from the North. Unless Illyrian ancient samples are found containing I2a-Dinaric in the Balkans, most certainly I2a-Dinaric had nothing to do with Illyrians.

On top of that you are analyzing E-V13 saying its a subranch of E-M78, in which you are ignoring 10,000 years of history.

59tOSmh.png

VmzIIWQ.png

Not sure you know how to interpret YFull data, but better start getting familiar with it.
E-M78 the one that has Levantine/African connection Formed 19kya TMRCA 13.3kya.
E-V13 high likelyhood of Balkan origin, Formed 8.1kya TMRCA 4.9 kya.
Get your facts straight, V13 most likely has nothing to do with Africa.

The fact that you claim I2a Dinaric as Illyrian against all evidence, and cliam V13 as African makes me think you need to update your software to 2021, you are stuck with the Serbian propaganda on genetic forums from 2009 when we had no data against such bs theories.

PS: z2103 found in Maros along with L283, L283 found in Dalmatia, all samples from ~4kya. Likely proto-Illyrian. Now in North Albania, L283 and R1b-PF7563 found from the EBA/MBA/LBA Bronze Age (upcoming paper). If we are talking Illyrians, given the current evidence R1b-z2103 and L283 are pretty much obvious answers. Depending if V13 is found in the next samples to be analyzed from South Albania, they might also fit.

Plus Illyrians were Indo Europeans, meanwhile I and G predated Indo-Europeans, hence try to use logic.
Check the TMRCA of these branches, then check the Indo European expansion timing (Wikipedia: Indo Europeans).

VmzIIWQ.png

lBQKIHF.png

7sS6Jpn.png

But yeah... just a coincidence.

The only question is where these 3 branches met.

If you want to update your software as to these stuff, with people you might trust better, go to Poreklo, the Serbian forum, those people from the thread I read on L283, seem pretty knowledgeable, it probably applies to other discussions. However I personally do not have time/interest to verify whether there is bias in other discussions, however on L283 the more knowledgeable members seemed on point. Point being give up on the old propagandas from 2009, they are outdated and rejected.

Also if you care, read this thread and find Aspurg's posts, he seems quite knowledgeable on E-V13 and is only marginally biased (dislikes Early Farmers xD) .
 
It means the people who carried the E clades from which EV13 people descend were
Neolithic farmers

Do you know by the way what Arber means?

Are means Land and ber means work

Arber is the one who works the land thus Farmer or Peasant

In Greek this is the Arvanitis.

Arvaino (i work on the fields)

Are we talking about the same Arvanitas that lead and fought for Greek independence ? Or something else I am not aware of? But yeah... bunch of peasants and farmers that lead and fought for your freedom.
 
As far as I know I and G were in Europe thousands upon thousands of years before Illyrians. While almost all I2a-Dinaric subclades today found in the Balkans have TMRCA compatible with 7th century movement of Slavs from the North. Unless Illyrian ancient samples are found containing I2a-Dinaric in the Balkans, most certainly I2a-Dinaric had nothing to do with Illyrians.

On top of that you are analyzing E-V13 saying its a subranch of E-M78, in which you are ignoring 10,000 years of history.

59tOSmh.png

VmzIIWQ.png

Not sure you know how to interpret YFull data, but better start getting familiar with it.
E-M78 the one that has Levantine/African connection Formed 19kya TMRCA 13.3kya.
E-V13 high likelyhood of Balkan origin, Formed 8.1kya TMRCA 4.9 kya.
Get your facts straight, V13 most likely has nothing to do with Africa.

The fact that you claim I2a Dinaric as Illyrian against all evidence, and cliam V13 as African makes me think you need to update your software to 2021, you are stuck with the Serbian propaganda on genetic forums from 2009 when we had no data against such bs theories.

PS: z2103 found in Maros along with L283, L283 found in Dalmatia, all samples from ~4kya. Likely proto-Illyrian. Now in North Albania, L283 and R1b-PF7563 found from the EBA/MBA/LBA Bronze Age (upcoming paper). If we are talking Illyrians, given the current evidence R1b-z2103 and L283 are pretty much obvious answers. Depending if V13 is found in the next samples to be analyzed from South Albania, they might also fit.

Plus Illyrians were Indo Europeans, meanwhile I and G predated Indo-Europeans, hence try to use logic.
Check the TMRCA of these branches, then check the Indo European expansion timing (Wikipedia: Indo Europeans).

VmzIIWQ.png

lBQKIHF.png

7sS6Jpn.png

But yeah... just a coincidence.

The only question is where these 3 branches met.

If you want to update your software as to these stuff, with people you might trust better, go to Poreklo, the Serbian forum, those people from the thread I read on L283, seem pretty knowledgeable, it probably applies to other discussions. However I personally do not have time/interest to verify whether there is bias in other discussions, however on L283 the more knowledgeable members seemed on point. Point being give up on the old propagandas from 2009, they are outdated and rejected.

Also if you care, read this thread and find Aspurg's posts, he seems quite knowledgeable on E-V13 and is only marginally biased (dislikes Early Farmers xD) .

haplogroup J appeared in Europe during the Bronze Age haplogroup G is there before, I don't know where you got this information from
 
the G and the I are the two oldest haplogroups in Europe, the E and J the Bronze Age the R culture Yamna.
 
That is exactly what I said?! Maybe re-read it again in case you got confused.

As far as I know I and G were in Europe thousands upon thousands of years before Illyrians. While almost all I2a-Dinaric subclades today found in the Balkans have TMRCA compatible with 7th century movement of Slavs from the North. Unless Illyrian ancient samples are found containing I2a-Dinaric in the Balkans, most certainly I2a-Dinaric had nothing to do with Illyrians.
---

The fact that you claim I2a Dinaric as Illyrian against all evidence, and cliam V13 as African makes me think you need to update your software to 2021, you are stuck with the Serbian propaganda on genetic forums from 2009 when we had no data against such bs theories.
---

Plus Illyrians were Indo Europeans, meanwhile I and G predated Indo-Europeans, hence try to use logic.
Check the TMRCA of these branches, then check the Indo European expansion timing (Wikipedia: Indo Europeans).

VmzIIWQ.png

lBQKIHF.png

7sS6Jpn.png

But yeah... just a coincidence.

The only question is where these 3 branches met.
---

Also you need to understand that haplogroup I and haplogroup I2a-Dinaric is not the same thing.
You are making the mistake of equivalence between the great grand father and the nephew.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-L621/
https://www.yfull.com/tree/I/

Analyze them yourself and you will understand.

d5ZLqaW.png
I2a-Dianric

AXAQRra.png
I


When you click the first link, look at the clades: https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-L621/ and the flags associated. The upstream clades close to the basal are located around Germany/Poland.

Then you follow the trail:

vjV4Kcx.png


Feel free to go all the way down the tree, while looking at flags and TMRCA (Time to Most Recent Common Ancestor), and tell me what conclusion you get. Most people get the conclusion that based on the upstream to downstream view of the tree, as well as their TMRCA I2a-Dinaric took a path down from around Eastern Germany/Poland as a branch of the Slavic migration to the Balkans.

And if any of these clades look Illyrian to you... I do not know what to say.

But yeah look at the tree yourself.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-CTS10228/

But of course, if you don't trust me, and/or don't feel confident in this very basic analysis.
Check what Maciamo, the founder of Eupedia has on his resources regarding I2a Dinaric:

https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_I2_Y-DNA.shtml#I2a1b
 
you must know that there are several mutations ?, my haplogroup will mutate in the near future it is quite normal, the J is not in the Upper Paleolithic Balkans nor the Mesolithic and less the Neolithic you cannot not pretend to be there before I2a because


"Some human samples from the Starčevo culture were studied: in 2015, among the five specimens studied, three individuals belong to the haplogroup F * (M89) and two specimens can be attributed to the haplogroup G2a2b (S126) and one at G2a (P15) and at I2a1 (P37.2) "

https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/full/10.1098/rspb.2015.0339
 
you must know that there are several mutations ?, my haplogroup will mutate in the near future it is quite normal, the J is not in the Upper Paleolithic Balkans nor the Mesolithic and less the Neolithic you cannot not pretend to be there before I2a because


"Some human samples from the Starčevo culture were studied: in 2015, among the five specimens studied, three individuals belong to the haplogroup F * (M89) and two specimens can be attributed to the haplogroup G2a2b (S126) and one at G2a (P15) and at I2a1 (P37.2) "

https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/full/10.1098/rspb.2015.0339

First of all, I am not pretending anything. You can expect much of me, but I am not one of those people that will argue "we was first". Hence why I clearly stated I and G were in Europe earlier, and you for some reason are putting other words in my mouth.

But anyways my point I am sure you understood, not sure you accepted it though. Mutations happen, but the timeline how they happen gives you a geographical expansion for various branches when combined with archeological evidence, and as I said I=/=I2a1. For the case of Illyrians being Bronze Age Indo Europeans ~4kya you have to understand that much. I and G being in most cases Paelolithic people not related to Indo Europeans when they first entered Europe ~40k(?) ya you also probably know that(Althoug based on what I have read Western Yamnaya R1b and I were found alongside each other in graves, cant remember if I1 or I2, but IIRC this had something to do with Easter Hunter Gatherers being incorporated into the Yamnaya genetics).

Now, about the sample you mentioned from Starchevo, I saw the paper and they do not specify if it was M26 or M406. I suspect M26, but who knows(?). Either way don't see how Starchevo connected to Neolithic farmers from Anatolia has anything to do with Illyrians.

All in all, I think I should refrain from engaging you anymore, given how little effort you put to even understand what I write, let alone in the replies.

Have a great day.

Edit: From the source you shared:
i7a2brm.png


Nice job by the way. Share more sources like this, much higher quality than the previous ones. (y)
 
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[QUOTE = Archetype0ne; 625006] Tout d'abord, je ne prétends rien. Vous pouvez vous attendre à beaucoup de moi, mais je ne suis pas de ceux qui diront "nous étions les premiers". D'où la raison pour laquelle j'ai clairement déclaré que moi et G étions en Europe plus tôt, et que, pour une raison quelconque, vous mettez d'autres mots dans ma bouche.

Mais de toute façon mon point, je suis sûr que vous avez compris, mais pas sûr que vous l'avez accepté. Les mutations se produisent, mais la chronologie de la façon dont elles se produisent vous donne une expansion géographique pour diverses branches lorsqu'elle est combinée avec des preuves archéologiques, et comme je l'ai dit, I = / = I2a1. Pour le cas des Illyriens étant des Indo-Européens de l'âge du bronze~ 4kya vous devez comprendre cela. I et G étant dans la plupart des cas des personnes paélolithiques non liées aux Indo-Européens quand ils sont entrés en Europe pour la première fois ~ 40k (?) Vous savez probablement aussi que (bien que sur la base de ce que j'ai lu Western Yamnaya R1b et moi avons été trouvés côte à côte dans des tombes , je ne me souviens pas si I1 ou I2, mais IIRC cela avait quelque chose à voir avec l'intégration des Easter Hunter Gatherers dans la génétique Yamnaya).

Maintenant, à propos de l'échantillon que vous avez mentionné de Starchevo, j'ai vu le papier et ils ne précisent pas s'il s'agissait du M26 ou du M406. Je soupçonne M26, mais qui sait (?). De toute façon, ne voyez pas comment Starchevo (situé en Grèce) et connecté aux agriculteurs néolithiques d'Anatolie a quelque chose à voir avec les Illyriens.

Dans l'ensemble, je pense que je devrais m'abstenir de vous engager plus, étant donné le peu d'efforts que vous faites pour comprendre ce que j'écris, et encore moins dans les réponses.

Passe une bonne journée.

Edit: De la source que vous avez partagée:
i7a2brm.png


Beau travail au fait. Partagez plus de sources comme celle-ci, de bien meilleure qualité que les précédentes. (y)[/CITATION]

We are not here to get angry we can disagree on several points of view. For the culture of Starcevo I never said that there is a link with the Illyrians, I just answered you when you say that the h'aplogroup is older than the I in the Balkans, which for me is impossible that's my point of view, we can argue without getting angry.
 
In Starcevo only G2a was found if i am not wrong, again in Bulgaria only G2a was found.

For the record E-L618 closest cousin is the Ancient Egyptian counterpart not Maghreb, Iberomaurusians were long dead lineage, they were reduced by natural causes and then finished off by E-M81 Berber Capsian Neolithics.

But, that's just extremely deep-historical connection to that degree that we can make a parallell of R1b/R1a having South-East Asian connection with Papuans as well who belong to Y-DNA K and M/S.
 
In Starcevo only G2a was found if i am not wrong, again in Bulgaria only G2a was found.

For the record E-L618 closest cousin is the Ancient Egyptian counterpart not Maghreb, Iberomaurusians were long dead lineage, they were reduced by natural causes and then finished off by E-M81 Berber Capsian Neolithics.

But, that's just extremely deep-historical connection to that degree that we can make a parallell of R1b/R1a having South-East Asian connection with Papuans as well who belong to Y-DNA K and M/S.

it seems that the I2a too
 
it seems that the I2a too

I am not aware of that, i know that Y-DNA H was found among the numerous G2a. During Early to Middle Neolithic G2a was the most numerous lineage in Europe along with I2a. But I2a seems to be absent in Balkans throughout Neolithic, during Early Bronze Age it came with Yamnaya maybe as Indo-European.

E-M78/E-L618 can be attested through the ~5-10% Natufian/Levantine PPNB influence in farmers and extremely likely the people who spread the idea of farming initially among Natufian Ramonian E-M35 and then Anatolians as well. This people came from Nile Valley and were called Mushabian by archeologists.
 
I am not aware of that, i know that Y-DNA H was found among the numerous G2a. During Early to Middle Neolithic G2a was the most numerous lineage in Europe along with I2a. But I2a seems to be absent in Balkans throughout Neolithic, during Early Bronze Age it came with Yamnaya maybe as Indo-European.

E-M78/E-L618 can be attested through the ~5-10% Natufian/Levantine PPNB influence in farmers and extremely likely the people who spread the idea of farming initially among Natufian Ramonian E-M35 and then Anatolians as well. This people came from Nile Valley and were called Mushabian by archeologists.

the G must be the most widespread haplogroup at this time I do not say the opposite, for the I2 I put the link
 
In Starcevo only G2a was found if i am not wrong, again in Bulgaria only G2a was found.

For the record E-L618 closest cousin is the Ancient Egyptian counterpart not Maghreb, Iberomaurusians were long dead lineage, they were reduced by natural causes and then finished off by E-M81 Berber Capsian Neolithics.

But, that's just extremely deep-historical connection to that degree that we can make a parallell of R1b/R1a having South-East Asian connection with Papuans as well who belong to Y-DNA K and M/S.

I tried looking at the supplements. And only got further confused. They do not have a table with the results. And at some paragraphs they say that they did not test deeper to distinguish I1 or I2, and left the results at I. But the paper itself mentions I2a1(p37.2), however we might have not heard of it since it is not exactly in the the Balkans, speaking in the strict geographical sense.

PKaRhVi.png

iu


However, that is beside the point.

These people were autosomaly speaking closest to modern Caucasus people. And to a lesser extend, Iranians/Anatolians.
Further circumstantial evidence I2a1 was picked on their (Early Farmers) movement up north (Unless there is I2a1 in Caucasia I am not aware of xD).

2SzgkEI.png


Meaning they had little to do with I2a1(P37.2)b(m406). And predated the term Illyrian by some 3000 years. Furthermore the study further suggests the I2a1 was a minor lineage attributed to Hunter Gatherers from further North/West.
i7a2brm.png



And this is pretty much in line with what we know already: I1/I2 were already in Europe albeit probably South West/Iberia and North (Scandinavia) (think this very paper also mentions that), (which path they took into Europe I do not know, and personally do not have interest to research). Nonetheless these linages were in Europe already when these Early Farmers (G2a) and (H)? brought farming through Anatolia/Levant into the Balkans. Chances are, far up north (Hungary) this I2a1 was incorporated into the farming culture as a minor Hunter Gatherer lineage (given its ratio to G2a and other lines, and where it has been found before, as you can read from the study itself).

Just a look at the tree further supports this. Not such a far fetch speculation.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-M423/
One expansion seems North West (Germany, England, Ireland, Nordic countries).
While modern Balkan I2a1 pretty much falls under: https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-L621/ With the older branches around Germany/Poland-->Hungary-->Balkans (arrows descending according to TMRCA).

Now, if Illyricum wants to speculate how I* got into Europe, whether from the East (Russia-->Baltics) or South (Anatolia) 27,500 years ago, it his right. I do not have any evidence even to speculate.

yUlTvkj.png


All I can say, based on all the evidence I am seeing, almost all I2a1 came into the Balkans from the North in the last 1-1.5k years (compatible with the historically attested Slavic movements south) from around the border of Poland and Germany.

Now if he thinks all I2, a branch with TMRCA of 21,500 years are all the same people, its even more extreme than someone saying an R1b West African and a Frenchmen are the same people. (R1B TMRCA 20k/I2 TMRCA 21.5k) (Check my note on the Starcevo samples being autosomaly closest to modern Caucasus people, and you will get the analogy).

yiZBXSD.png

HQTBHdf.png
 
I tried looking at the supplements. And only got further confused. They do not have a table with the results. And at some paragraphs they say that they did not test deeper to distinguish I1 or I2, and left the results at I. But the paper itself mentions I2a1(p37.2), however we might have not heard of it since it is not exactly in the the Balkans, speaking in the strict geographical sense.

PKaRhVi.png

iu


However, that is beside the point.

These people were autosomaly speaking closest to modern Caucasus people. And to a lesser extend, Iranians/Anatolians.
Further circumstantial evidence I2a1 was picked on their (Early Farmers) movement up north (Unless there is I2a1 in Caucasia I am not aware of xD).

2SzgkEI.png


Meaning they had little to do with I2a1(P37.2)b(m406). And predated the term Illyrian by some 3000 years. Furthermore the study further suggests the I2a1 was a minor lineage attributed to Hunter Gatherers from further North/West.
i7a2brm.png



And this is pretty much in line with what we know already: I1/I2 were already in Europe albeit probably South West/Iberia and North (Scandinavia) (think this very paper also mentions that), (which path they took into Europe I do not know, and personally do not have interest to research). Nonetheless these linages were in Europe already when these Early Farmers (G2a) and (H)? brought farming through Anatolia/Levant into the Balkans. Chances are, far up north (Hungary) this I2a1 was incorporated into the farming culture as a minor Hunter Gatherer lineage (given its ratio to G2a and other lines, and where it has been found before, as you can read from the study itself).

Just a look at the tree further supports this. Not such a far fetch speculation.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-M423/
One expansion seems North West (Germany, England, Ireland, Nordic countries).
While modern Balkan I2a1 pretty much falls under: https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-L621/ With the older branches around Germany/Poland-->Hungary-->Balkans (arrows descending according to TMRCA).

Now, if Illyricum wants to speculate how I* got into Europe, whether from the East (Russia-->Baltics) or South (Anatolia) 27,500 years ago, it his right. I do not have any evidence even to speculate.

yUlTvkj.png


All I can say, based on all the evidence I am seeing, almost all I2a1 came into the Balkans from the North in the last 1-1.5k years (compatible with the historically attested Slavic movements south) from around the border of Poland and Germany.

Now if he thinks all I2, a branch with TMRCA of 21,500 years are all the same people, its even more extreme than someone saying an R1b West African and a Frenchmen are the same people. (R1B TMRCA 20k/I2 TMRCA 21.5k) (Check my note on the Starcevo samples being autosomaly closest to modern Caucasus people, and you will get the analogy).

yiZBXSD.png

HQTBHdf.png


You need to include in the starcevo and LBK the following ydna, G2a-u8 , T1a1, H2 and I1 .............I have never seen and I2a

https://www.researchgate.net/public...ny_-_biological_ties_and_residential_mobility
 
You need to include in the starcevo and LBK the following ydna, G2a-u8 , T1a1, H2 and I1 .............I have never seen and I2a

https://www.researchgate.net/public...ny_-_biological_ties_and_residential_mobility

Yes, but I wasn't doing an exhaustive post about STA/LBKT. More of an analysis of the I2 found in Hungary.
The paper you shared is from sites in Saxony-Anhalt regarding LBKT?

From the paper you shared:
"Furthermore we used the frequencies of 15 haplogroups that wereobserved among the ancient data (H, HV, J, K, N1a, T2, U, U3, U4, U5a, U5b,U8, V, W, X) to identify significant differences at the haplogroup level usingFisher’s exact test for frequency data (Fisher 1922)"

However, the paper mentions nothing about Starcevo. Probably cause its in mainland Germany.

Edit: Quite surprised not to see any I to be honest. Not very read on LBKT but were they farming communities? That might be a reason if it is the case.

PS: Sorry to the readers, feel like I sent this whole thread off track, and it all started with the Illyrians argument earlier...
 
Hello Cousin

Hello Hellen Cousins,
I am an Algerian E-V13 carrier,E-V13>E-Z1057>E-CTS1273>E-YB3880>E-Z5017-->E-Z5016>E-Y138701* (E-BY4610*).
Terminal subclade E-Y138701* (E-BY4610*).
I presume that E-Y138701 (E-BY4610) is a rare E-Z5016 subclade found only in Portugal,Spain and Algeria, someone have any useful info about this lineage?.
Regards
 

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