E-V13 subclades in Greece

[PaschalisB]

I did some research in familytreedna and classified some subclades with surnames and places of origin where available. The Nevgen tool was very helpful in predicting some clades.
It seems the main subclades in Greece are:

• Z5018>S2979>FGC11457 (Peloponnese including Arvanite areas)
• Z5018>S2979>Z16659>L241 (Peloponnese)
• Z5018>S2979>Z16659>Y3183 (Peloponnese)
• Z5017>Z5016>CTS9320 (Thessaly, Thrace, Epirus, Syros)
• S7461 (Peloponnese)

More samples are needed, but the general picture is that Z5018 clades are concentrated south, while Z5017 is concentrated north.

Anyone who can contribute more is welcome.

[PaschalisB]

I have also created two maps with participants in FTDNA projects confirmed for CTS9320 and S2979

CTS9320


S2979


One could notice that CTS9320 is more common in the Balkans Central and East Europe (possible spread with R1a/I2a1b-din?), while S2979 is more widespread in Europe, including the British Isles (possible spread with R1b?)

[DuPidh]

Good job! I don't know how much data you have had, but I would say knowing the history, that S2979 looks like Roman soldiers from mainly Thracian and North Albania in England. CTS9320 looks Neolithic distribution

[PaschalisB]

Good job! I don't know how much data you have had, but I would say knowing the history, that S2979 looks like Roman soldiers from mainly Thracian and North Albania in England. CTS9320 looks Neolithic distribution

Regarding Greece I have just 15 samples from various FTDNA projects.

[PaschalisB]

CTS9320 looks Neolithic distribution

CTS9320 can't be Neolithic, since the most recent ancestor lived 2900 years before present, which is long after the Neolithic. It's more likely to be associated with the Thraco-Cimmerian culture.

[PaschalisB]

I would say knowing the history, that S2979 looks like Roman soldiers from mainly Thracian and North Albania in England.

It think it was spread with the Urnfield Culture, the map reminds me of this culture's area a lot.

[LeBrok]

From what I've seen, all mainland Greece is fairly well mixed, with minimal regional differences. You might see that with more samples in your database.

[Azzurro]

Thanks and Great Job PaschalisB, work like this is always well appreciated, I'll say something interesting that when I nevgen predicted the Cypriot samples from the recent paper I found Y3183 and S7461 which is great see here, Possibly one of those might turn out to be a Mycenaean marker.

[PaschalisB]

Thanks and Great Job PaschalisB, work like this is always well appreciated, I'll say something interesting that when I nevgen predicted the Cypriot samples from the recent paper I found Y3183 and S7461 which is great see here, Possibly one of those might turn out to be a Mycenaean marker.

Mycenaean or Dorian? I have come to believe S2979 was brought into Greece with the Dorians from the Northwest.

[Azzurro]

Mycenaean or Dorian? I have come to believe S2979 was brought into Greece with the Dorians from the Northwest.

Maybe it was brought in by both, in Cyprus there was no Doric colonies, maybe the Mycenaeans and the Dorians came from the same pre Greek location, with Y3183 being brought in by the Mycenaeans and the other S2979 (L241 and FGC11457) brought in by the Dorians? The age of S2979 is old enough at a TMRCA of 4000 ybp to have been distributed by two sources in Greece, also Y3183 seems to match a more a Mycenaean dispersal while FGC11457 (TMRCA 3200 ybp) and L241 (TMRCA 2800 ybp) seems to be matching when the Dorians settled in Greece. It fits well with the dates.

[PaschalisB]

Maybe it was brought in by both, in Cyprus there was no Doric colonies, maybe the Mycenaeans and the Dorians came from the same pre Greek location, with Y3183 being brought in by the Mycenaeans and the other S2979 (L241 and FGC11457) brought in by the Dorians? The age of S2979 is old enough at a TMRCA of 4000 ybp to have been distributed by two sources in Greece, also Y3183 seems to match a more a Mycenaean dispersal while FGC11457 (TMRCA 3200 ybp) and L241 (TMRCA 2800 ybp) seems to be matching when the Dorians settled in Greece. It fits well with the dates.

There were Dorians in Cyprus, they arrived peacefully though, unlike they did in the greek mainland.

[Azzurro]

There were Dorians in Cyprus, they arrived peacefully though, unlike they did in the greek mainland.

I did not know that thanks, perhaps S2979 was all brought in by the Dorians in Greece, I also checked Albanian E-V13 to compare, S2979 appears to be 50% of Albanian E-V13 as well, it looks like maybe S2979 was born in an population that was ancestral to both the Dorians and Illyrians. S7461 right now appears to be the best candidate for Mycenaean E-V13 and despite S7461 looking like an Alpine or Northern marker it would make sense since the Mycenaeans could have carried this since they probably came directly from the Steppe and would have maybe had more Northern looking haplogroups than the later Dorians, Ionians, etc...

[Maleth]

Thank you for your work Paschalis. This looks very interesting. Maybe deeper clades will be able to tell different stories. Looking forward

[Shetop]

Very good topic. I hope it will lead to more Greeks doing SNP tests.

[athos]

I did some research in familytreedna and classified some subclades with surnames and places of origin where available. The Nevgen tool was very helpful in predicting some clades.
It seems the main subclades in Greece are:

• Z5018>S2979>FGC11457 (Peloponnese including Arvanite areas)
• Z5018>S2979>Z16659>L241 (Peloponnese)
• Z5018>S2979>Z16659>Y3183 (Peloponnese)
• Z5017>Z5016>CTS9320 (Thessaly, Thrace, Epirus, Syros)
• S7461 (Peloponnese)

More samples are needed, but the general picture is that Z5018 clades are concentrated south, while Z5017 is concentrated north.

Anyone who can contribute more is welcome.

Hello Paschalis,

Interesting information. Thanks for posting.

I am E-V13. 23andme did not break down any further. My family on both sides is from the Peloponnese.

[PaschalisB]

Hello Paschalis,

Interesting information. Thanks for posting.

I am E-V13. 23andme did not break down any further. My family on both sides is from the Peloponnese.

Yes, 23andme doesn't break E-V13 down. If you are interested in knowing the exact clade I would suggest FTDNA's E-V68 SNP pack

[Trojet]

Hello Paschalis,
Interesting information. Thanks for posting.
I am E-V13. 23andme did not break down any further. My family on both sides is from the Peloponnese.

Yes, 23andme doesn't break E-V13 down. If you are interested in knowing the exact clade I would suggest FTDNA's E-V68 SNP pack

Or FTDNA's specific E-V13 SNP Pack. But you'd have to order minimum Y-DNA12 STR test from FTDNA first.

The other more cost effective option is the YSEQ E-V13 SNP Panel: https://www.yseq.net/product_info.ph...oducts_id=2486

[blevins13]

I did not know that thanks, perhaps S2979 was all brought in by the Dorians in Greece, I also checked Albanian E-V13 to compare, S2979 appears to be 50% of Albanian E-V13 as well, it looks like maybe S2979 was born in an population that was ancestral to both the Dorians and Illyrians. S7461 right now appears to be the best candidate for Mycenaean E-V13 and despite S7461 looking like an Alpine or Northern marker it would make sense since the Mycenaeans could have carried this since they probably came directly from the Steppe and would have maybe had more Northern looking haplogroups than the later Dorians, Ionians, etc...

Mycenaeans show more Anatolian than steppe ancestry according to Lazaridis last paper on this matter.....


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[Garrick]

Very interesting article, reputation.

One of part of E-V13 probably spread together with R1b-Z2103.

If we see Balkans/Romania we can find for example for Dacians, Free Dacians (Carpi).

One interesting article about R1b-Z2103-Dacian.

The fire peoples-urns & metals. The R1b conquest of Europe. Dacians-R1b-Z2103
https://vieilleeurope.wordpress.com/...ians-r1bz2103/

[hrvat22]

I did some research in familytreedna and classified some subclades with surnames and places of origin where available. The Nevgen tool was very helpful in predicting some clades.
It seems the main subclades in Greece are:

• Z5018>S2979>FGC11457 (Peloponnese including Arvanite areas)
• Z5018>S2979>Z16659>L241 (Peloponnese)
• Z5018>S2979>Z16659>Y3183 (Peloponnese)
• Z5017>Z5016>CTS9320 (Thessaly, Thrace, Epirus, Syros)
• S7461 (Peloponnese)

More samples are needed, but the general picture is that Z5018 clades are concentrated south, while Z5017 is concentrated north.

Anyone who can contribute more is welcome.

As far I can see from Croatia all these subclade have source on the border of Albania, Montenegro and Serbia(if we believe co-administrator of the FTDNA E-M35 project), subclade CTS5856(4700 year) which is probably ancestor of later Illyrian i.e Albanian mutations in that area.

We need to see which subclade exist in Greece and when they came there, if they came to Greece 4,000 years ago they probably can not be Illyric no Albanian, but if they come to Greece before 2000, 1500 or 500 years they are very likely Albanian-Illyrian origin in Greece.

I do not know Greece history and when first Greece name or tribe appears in that area ...in that age appearance of Greece names needs look for the original Greek haplotypes.

If turns out that E1b subclades are first haplotypes in Greek history it means that they in fact are Greeks origin and all branches behind them are Greeks origin.

It still does not change fact that original mutation of the Greeks is in the hills of Albania and that Greeks are with a good part of today Albanians cousins by the male line.


Everything will be known in the future.

https://postimg.org/image/4qxnhdqsb/

[Dianatomia]

We should be careful by correlating Illyrian and Albanian. I.e. we still do not have DNA of Illyrians as we do of Myceneans. The Illyrians may very well have been different from Albanians or peoples in the Balkans in general. E1b subclades may have wondered around in the Balkans and may have been picked up by Albanians and Greeks sometime in history. Similarly, there could have been different people who carried E1b already in the Bronze Age. That said, given the spread of E1b in the Balkans/Greece/Italy and areas of Greco-Roman presence I would very much doubt that E1b has spread only recently.

[blevins13]

We should be careful by correlating Illyrian and Albanian. I.e. we still do not have DNA of Illyrians as we do of Myceneans. The Illyrians may very well have been different from Albanians or peoples in the Balkans in general. E1b subclades may have wondered around in the Balkans and may have been picked up by Albanians and Greeks sometime in history. Similarly, there could have been different people who carried E1b already in the Bronze Age. That said, given the spread of E1b in the Balkans/Greece/Italy and areas of Greco-Roman presence I would very much doubt that E1b has spread only recently.

There is no reason to be careful here.....main ancient Ydna of Albanians has been discovered in Croatia.....and guess who lived over there at that time????


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[hrvat22]

There is no reason to be careful here.....main ancient Ydna of Albanians has been discovered in Croatia.....and guess who lived over there at that time????

I said that in Dalmatia among the Serbs(they come 300 years ago to Dalmatia) exist subclade which has a connection with Albania and not from eastern Herzegovina or from allegedly Serbs come to Dalmatia. Very likely they come from Albania to Dalmatia, or Kosovo, Macedonia..

It is very possible that in Croatia exist ancient E-V13 subclade since Illyrians lived in Croatia, but for now I have no information.

If it turns out that E1b originates (subclade CTS5856(4700 year) in the northern Albanian hills this is probably originally Illyrian branch(later subclades) that exist when Illyrians and Illyrian tribes are mentioned.

As far I can see Greek, Serbian and Albanian subclades of E1b are from same branche.

Serbians coming in 7 th century and they have nothing to do with E1b, while for Greeks there is a link just we do not know since. As I said, if some subclades of E1b come to Greece from Albanian hills 4,000 years ago they do not have anything with Illyrians, but if they come at the time of Illyrians or later there are Albanian origin.

For me Albanians are descendants of the Illyrians.

[hrvat22]

We should be careful by correlating Illyrian and Albanian. I.e. we still do not have DNA of Illyrians as we do of Myceneans. The Illyrians may very well have been different from Albanians or peoples in the Balkans in general. E1b subclades may have wondered around in the Balkans and may have been picked up by Albanians and Greeks sometime in history. Similarly, there could have been different people who carried E1b already in the Bronze Age. That said, given the spread of E1b in the Balkans/Greece/Italy and areas of Greco-Roman presence I would very much doubt that E1b has spread only recently.

Illyria is not far from Albania and we know that E1b is autochthonous in that area, certainly Croatian I2a and R1a can not be Illyrian.

If there were any migration in this area or through Italy, still is source of E1b in the hills of Albania (subclade CTS5856)

[Garrick]

We should be careful by correlating Illyrian and Albanian. I.e. we still do not have DNA of Illyrians as we do of Myceneans. The Illyrians may very well have been different from Albanians or peoples in the Balkans in general. E1b subclades may have wondered around in the Balkans and may have been picked up by Albanians and Greeks sometime in history. Similarly, there could have been different people who carried E1b already in the Bronze Age. That said, given the spread of E1b in the Balkans/Greece/Italy and areas of Greco-Roman presence I would very much doubt that E1b has spread only recently.

Reputation.

Proto-Illyrians entered in the Balkans 2000 BC via Bosphorus. Today there is opinion it is possible Illyrians were Western Iranians (it is possible from area Zagros mountains and surroundings). In this picture Illyrians are designated as Iranian people.



Zagros mountains or some other area in Western Iran or surrounding Eastern Anatolia, it is not E-V13 area.

About E-V13 generally in the Balkans and whole Europe, a lot of things are not clear today and more knowledge is needed. Fast conclusions usually lead to mistake. E-V13 was present in ancient Greeks, Thracians, Dacians and many other people in Europe. In this thread is noticed spreading E-V13 with R1b-Z2103. I give article about Dacian R1b-Z2103.

Complex analysis can give some responses. This involves research of haplogroups of many tribes in certain epochs in history including Dacians/Free Dacians, Thracians etc. Seminal paper of Lazaridis et al about Minoans and Mycenaeans is top of the science and sets high standards for future studies.