E-V13 subclades in Greece

[Dema]

Kun statues, Karcag, made by E-A24048+
View attachment 10864


I SPIT IN YOUR FACE ARNAUTAS DEMA.

Yes, Avars and Cumans in imagination, while you are still closer to Macedonian Albanians, Kosovo Albanian, Greeks, Italians and plenty of Albania Albanians while none of these exotic people are not connected to you.
So not only your clade A24048 is completley Balkan but also its brother clade is completely Albanian. and your entire main clade Z17107 has multiple Balkan Iron Age splits. Puro Illyrian, or if you rather wish Montenegrin Šiptar line.

You can insult me, i cant be mad at my fellow Albanian

But still, if you manage to prove your fairy-tales ill pay you one portion of Avar meat and beer!! I think that is fair offer!

 

[Aspurg]

Yesterday i got this message from one Eupedia Serb that i barely know and he said this:

After this message i managed to find his thread on Serbian forum Poreklo where he talks and tries to explain Z17170, but also his own origin.

Ah that must be Bacchus, he cares so much about R-M458, he hasn't even tested himself for Y-DNA (likely I2a). Well I hypothesized that about Burmaz Vlachs because one with a surname Burmazovic came out of basal M458, but that was more than 2 years ago, when I was still early in my STR analysis.. Later Herzegovina research did not find this clade except maybe one case, and I-PH908 came to be encountered in some areas associated with it. Though what I did say is that still Burmazi have likely Albanian connection, so I said they possibly died out while assimilated into the tribe some local Slavs. So no, I do not maintain for a long time any connection with Burmazi and R-M458.

About Simo, he supported full 100 % Serb origin of Burmazi, negating Albanian influence. So we clashed there. The first attested member of Burmazi was Burmaz (Burr+madh albanian combination) and his son was Gjon, known historian associated him with them, Simo refused. We also clashed when he claimed that PF7562 has an Anatolian point of expansion whereas I claimed it is proto-Luwian and out of Steppe onto the Balkans and then from the Balkans into the Anatolia which is supported by archaeological and linguistic evidence. And ofc we clashed several times over Simo not respecting the Bosniaks as people, or some elements from Bosnian history. My maternal ancestors were legit nobility in Bosnian Kingdom and I won't have any of that ever.

So Simo came to t r o l l me a bit and any half sane individual with any knowledge about E-V13 clades or general STR features for certain clades must conclude that this Hungarian from Karcag is 100 % related with me, as are all others listed. Generally for many V13 clades that is hard, but not for my own clade.

Bacchus is so fond of Pripyat, and I am less fond of them. Serbs have no R-Z93 clades. Ethnic Bulgarians have 5 different R-Z93 clades.

Yes I do claim Scythian (Cimmerian) origin for my clade, as everybody can see basal clades are found in the East and there is some STR evidence to suggest the link of my own clade with those.

Alternatively most distant members of my own particular clade are found Northwards in Dacia, and I do claim in any case very likely Dacian descent, and that some Free Dacians got mingled and assimilated by Nomads such as Bulgars, Avars, later Cumans and Pechenegs. Because for that exists evidence.

I do not care about opinion of poreklo people. I am not even a member of poreklo of my own choice. And I am an honorable individual, I do not claim anything without good reason because the only way to have a real joy in something is to have it confirmed through fully rational means.

If I had been of Albanian origin I would be proud of it, and I would claim it.

You have no honor. And I tell you as an admirer (and in many respects practitioner) of the Japanese bushido culture (and a speaker of the Japanese language) because you have offended my family and my honor (because you accused me of lying about my origins), and especially in the case you are definitely proven wrong on my Nomad origin, your dishonorable conduct on this topic (that started out as an attention seeking thing as you were jealous that J. Derite posted my analysis) shall be noted... I am open to apologies though..

 

[Leka]

Well as I've said E-V13 formed likely a genetic "Balkan" mixture that included alot of EEF, and also CHG and some "Yamnaya" element..



Then don't take your group as evidence either..

That Y12000 likely was picked up by the Nomads and continued there. Y5587 on the other hand is not comparable. That is not "European influence", Ossetians are likely distantly related to Bulgarian clades. In fact that's what I was talking about, the spread of Thracian Z2103>Y5587 and V13>CTS1273 spectrum in East Carpathian region, contact with Cimmerians, or earlier Srubnaya people. That's where Ossetian E-CTS1273 comes in as well..
It is ludicrous not to consider their Y5587 and CTS1273* as anything other than Sarmatian in Antiquity per current evidence, and also quite likely Cimmerian etc.

Let's get to the point shall we, it's funny that you are trying to establish the non-existent E-V13 Albanian continuity (bar Dushmani) in Albania so they can be there since eternity (and ofc servants to R-2705's and J-L283's as I saw some of you like to imply elsewhere) is that what you have envisioned? Well, I'm afraid you're in for a rude awakening when it becomes apparent that a large chunk of Albanian E-V13's spoke Thracian in Antiquity. And your earlier comments trying to downplay diversity in Bulgarian areas are futile, as you have already more people deeper tested than Bulgarians and far more than Romanians.

If as you insinuate V13 is "native to Albania" then they are losers, and that's not in my interest, nor is it what the Genetic facts say.


E-V13 is Cetina, google Cetina, you will not make losers out of winners or viceversa. They left for the East, or NE. Their remnants are found through some of these PH1246.. And I know some important stuff nobody else knows due to which E-V13 = Cetina. (along few others.).

The simple point is that Indoeuropeasation of the Balkans from the onset was something where some more "Southern people" got involved .. And that's why they had more "Southern DNA".


@ markod, trying to establish some "Baltic Thracians" and Pelasgian E-V13 slaves. The only Eastern people with any influence in Thracian regions were Srubnaya and Cimmerians, they Satemized the Thracian language. ofc Thracians were more Southern as were Illyrians, but it's not a same thing as being close to modern Greeks or Albanians, as Albanians have small and N.Greeks have large recent Slavic influence.

Balto-Slavic invasion of Thrace marko.. provide hard archaeological evidence for that.. Srubnaya "Thracian" guy is an Iranian not Thracian and certainly not Balto-Slav, and if you are going to come forward with Iranian impact on Thracian then you may connect him with some "Thracians". So Srubnaya and Cimmerian Satemization of Thracian is something I want to hear more about..

Have you got a clue what "weapons" Balto-Slavs possessed in Antiquity, if they had anything better they would not have built Earth walls to protect themselves from the Scythians and Sarmatians. And these people were invaders of Thrace 3000 ybp?

Why should I not take our group as evidence? Out of around 450 samples in their project there are a whopping 5 V13! Same thing with the Tataristan project . Ossetians are pred G2a and J2a population, keep that in mind.

Have you actually looked at their Y5586 cluster? They are very closely related to each other exactly like in Y12000 cluster. SNP wise, not sure where they would be because they don't seem to have done any deep testing, but I wouldn't be surprised if they are under Y14300 and perhaps even BY593+. How do you think Y12000 got there? Exactly like how the V13 and Y5586 samples got there, simple as that - and most certainly from the Balkans or central/eastern Europe.

What about Dushmani? Not sure where you're getting at.

I wasn't trying to down play the diversity there, but bringing up to light that Bulgaria as a region is diverse precisely because many peoples/cultures have clashed there. And my comment was precisely directed at your comment regarding PF7563*, Y146086 and Z5018* clusters. You were doing the same thing, if you haven't forgotten, with the few samples under Z2705 from Bulgaria/Romania in the past, getting tangled up with some low res samples from scientific studies.

Never did I say that V13 is Albanian and Albanian only. However, it's pretty obvious now that it did spread from the Balkans and not during the bronze age but Iron age and at more intense rate during the Roman period. Just because you have some supposed relatives based on few STRs doesn't necessarily mean that your ancestors came from those regions, they most certainly didn't based on ethnographic literature I have read.

 

[Dema]

Its not Bachus and even if it was Bachus it is not important, it only reminded me to go and search for your thread in Poreklo : ) my dear Cuman : )
Ok ok, i let you think about it, if you manage to prove anything that is reasonable ill be happy to accept it but so far as results are standing you cant run away from your 900 BCE Balkan ancestry.

 

[Aspurg]

Why should I not take our group as evidence? Out of around 450 samples in their project there are a whopping 5 V13! Same thing with the Tataristan project . Ossetians are pred G2a and J2a population, keep that in mind.

There are few more including those from YSEQ. But they have presence of this cluster (9/37 I think so it's been there for some time) which can be seen even in studies. Tatars have about 3.0 % of V13 (not so bad) with multiple clades, and one possible or even likely basal Z38456. Actually one Ossetian kit 312082, might even turn out as a Z17107 (he looks weird though). And you even get some E-V13 in Bashkirs.. So yes, one does find V13 almost anywhere..
Yes Ossetians are G2a but also their main cluster is very young and it brings their G2a % to a crazy level. This cluster is likely Alan in late Atniquity, again based on my STR projections. But solid ones..

Have you actually looked at their Y5586 cluster? They are very closely related to each other exactly like in Y12000 cluster. SNP wise, not sure where they would be because they don't seem to have done any deep testing, but I wouldn't be surprised if they are under Y14300 and perhaps even BY593+. How do you think Y12000 got there? Exactly like how the V13 and Y5586 samples got there, simple as that - and most certainly from the Balkans or central/eastern Europe.

Yes they are very closely related. I looked at their STR's, they are likely to cluster with Bulgarians, not Y14300. Y12000 - some celticized Illyrians, might have been picked up by Scythians or the likes or due to TMRCA might be a newer arrival..

What about Dushmani? Not sure where you're getting at.

He's a likely Cetina culture remnant in his local area.

I wasn't trying to down play the diversity there, but bringing up to light that Bulgaria as a region is diverse precisely because many peoples/cultures have clashed there. And my comment was precisely directed at your comment regarding PH7563*, Y146086 and Z5018* clusters. You were doing the same thing, if you haven't forgotten, with the few samples under Z2705 from Bulgaria/Romania in the past, getting tangled up with some low res samples from scientific studies.

And I was correct, wasn't I? To this day the Greek sample at YFull remains the earliest officially confirmed split below the Z2705 level.. And this cluster does have multiple members in Bulgaria. Of course recent haplotypes from Italy which look related to a Croatian might push the Z2705 firmly to the West definitely. I gave you the Croatian, what I'm after is the truth, not pre-determined ideas that need to be proven.

To me the diversity there is pointing towards some more profound influence of E-V13 in Thracian ethnogenesis.. Yet ofc I believe younger, more widespread Iron Age clades such as L241, CTS9320 etc. played a significant role in Illyrian ethnogenesis.

Never did I say that V13 is Albanian and Albanian only. However, it's pretty obvious now that it did spread from the Balkans and not during the bronze age but Iron age and at more intense rate during the Roman period.

Well the initial spread that caused multiple CTS1273* clades obviously was not during the Iron Age. And I'm not downplaying subsequent movements. And of course some clades like my own had some EIA boom.

Just because you have some supposed relatives based on few STRs doesn't necessarily mean that your ancestors came from those regions, they most certainly didn't based on ethnographic literature I have read.

If it was almost any other clade they might have been "supposed", i have some additional "supposed/likely" candidates, including a Kalmykian one.


But my STR profile of my own clade is very well determined, with 2 very slow (and 3 at 111 STR's) and 1 faster STR (whose value is certaily old for our clade).


So all of those guys on the tree are 100 % members of my clade. I am willing to bet, are you.. Make it 5 times more profit for you, you'd still lose, I know 100 % all of those listed are related to me and also the fact that all balkan members have dys385b=17 (slow STR) and all Western dudes dys385a=17 cannot be accident.. Plus other STR's check my tree.. And most have 23 STR's, and a Hungarian has 111..


Literature I respect but I am not of Kuci clade, and Lutovac in Bihor and Korita did not place my family as Kuci because of our old presence in the area, and influence as well centuries into the past.

If I thought my ancestry is Albanian I'd be proud of it in fact I studied some basic Albanian once.


I don't take this seriously in terms of modern ethnicities.. This is the 21st century and modern ethnicities are groomed to be phased out.. So really I have very little interest in that.. But I think tribal identities, and who knows maybe some tribal-ancient tribal identities might emerge.

And I'm looking for my ancestors who were like me, only those interest me.. And I do not care about my ancestors who were far my level, nor do I care in general for low performance people of any ancestry..

Hence you see, for me this is a competition, as is for others.. Why is Trojet so bent on proving L283 Steppe hypothesis, because it is considered "more prestigious" and why is Eurogenes so aggressive in opposing it? i think he always gets upset when some non-R gets involved there..

 

[Aspurg]

Its not Bachus and even if it was Bachus it is not important, it only reminded me to go and search for your thread in Poreklo : ) my dear Cuman : )
Ok ok, i let you think about it, if you manage to prove anything that is reasonable ill be happy to accept it but so far as results are standing you cant run away from your 900 BCE Balkan ancestry.

hahaha as soon as you mention Burmaz and M458 and complaining about tying the R-M458 with Albanians, I knew it was likely him..

If I didn't have a cousin in Karcag, Cumania, or in Pecenjevce near Leskovac (named after Pechenegs), or if there wasn't monastery of Kumanica in my own native area and some other traces, I wouldn't think of connecting my clade to Cumans.. Plus Bulgarians did invade my native area in 13th century.. Also my clan has two separate traditions about "having lots of horses" and that was weird to me always..

To me this is something worth exploring, and doing something extra about it, but only with a solid base in evidence. I do need those samples up at YFull, and i do need alot more people tested. I need more people in Cumania tested. and I most definitely need some of those basal Z17107's at YFull to see what is exactly the relationship with them.

But I am somebody who would never ever claim descent without a basis, because I consider it dishonorable.

And also it is not really possible to tro** me though I can be very explosive, and seeing some of my SNP's no wonder..

Thanks for your wishes, I intend to obtain far more Genetic data than I have now.. And then we'll see what comes out of it.. I accept distant Balkan origin 100 %..

 

[Dema]

hahaha as soon as you mention Burmaz and M458 and complaining about tying the R-M458 with Albanians, I knew it was likely him..

If I didn't have a cousin in Karcag, Cumania, or in Pecenjevce near Leskovac (named after Pechenegs), or if there wasn't monastery of Kumanica in my own native area and some other traces, I wouldn't think of connecting my clade to Cumans.. Plus Bulgarians did invade my native area in 13th century.. Also my clan has two separate traditions about "having lots of horses" and that was weird to me always..

To me this is something worth exploring, and doing something extra about it, but only with a solid base in evidence. I do need those samples up at YFull, and i do need alot more people tested. I need more people in Cumania tested. and I most definitely need some of those basal Z17107's at YFull to see what is exactly the relationship with them.

But I am somebody who would never ever claim descent without a basis, because I consider it dishonorable.

And also it is not really possible to tro** me though I can be very explosive, and seeing some of my SNP's no wonder..

Thanks for your wishes, I intend to obtain far more Genetic data than I have now.. And then we'll see what comes out of it.. I accept distant Balkan origin 100 %..

Bachus is good and smart kid but he also tends to have some conspiracy theories and pushes Northern origin.

Regarding horses i died laughing when i seen Simo answer to this : ) i can say that my ancestors also owned lots of horses, we were very rich before, owned plenty of horses, lands and even slaves. Even tho they were living only of selling land for 300 years now, when my father died i managed to get a piece of land there worth an apartment which of course i am not going to sell. But i think we are speaking here about more ancient past so horses story and kumanica name must be only coincidences since i really dont believe that you are connected with Cumans and neither genetic results are showing that.

I encourage you to find closer relatives but looks like only Balkan ones can for now been taken into consideration. If you find Cuman samples that will fall into your own group and be closer to you then Albanians Greeks and Italians ill be ready to accept your theory but i think chances for that are slim to none.
I seen in your thread, you were very surprised yourself that you fall into Y30991 group, therefore you see that its hard to predict subclade position on phylogenetic tree based on STRs, especially in this case on such a low number of STRs. I would not be surprised at all if Cumans fall in some subclade separated from you, and to be Y30991 negative, also have low TMRCA among them.

This subclade multiple Balkan branch-outs prove that it was here before Cuman or Turkic times. There is almost no mathematical chance that your subclade was brought here in 13 century by Bulgarians because you have Greek, Bulgarian, Italian, also Albanian relatives that are prior to that period and fit into Iron Age, or i would probably say Bronze Age but with lower TMRCA indicating wrongly Iron Age.

With all your closest relatives being Serbs, Montenegrins, Kosovo Albanian, and further ones Being Albanians, Greeks, Italians, i would have to go with Illyrian origin.

Now there is alwais a chance i am mistaking on my assumptions but this just my two cents, and i believe all facts are going towards this theory. But if you manage of course to find some other closer links, i will be happy to take it into consideration even completely accept it if it makes sense.

 

[Leka]

Yeah, you're right about the Ossetians. One of them is Y5586+, so they should be somewhere between those Bulgarians. Didn't look at them that closely.

 

[Leka]

And I was correct, wasn't I? To this day the Greek sample at YFull remains the earliest officially confirmed split below the Z2705 level.. And this cluster does have multiple members in Bulgaria. Of course recent haplotypes from Italy which look related to a Croatian might push the Z2705 firmly to the West definitely. I gave you the Croatian, what I'm after is the truth, not pre-determined ideas that need to be proven.

To me the diversity there is pointing towards some more profound influence of E-V13 in Thracian ethnogenesis.. Yet ofc I believe younger, more widespread Iron Age clades such as L241, CTS9320 etc. played a significant role in Illyrian ethnogenesis.


Well the initial spread that caused multiple CTS1273* clades obviously was not during the Iron Age. And I'm not downplaying subsequent movements. And of course some clades like my own had some EIA boom.

Not really, you were predicting them to be a lot further upstream. Hence also why you were pushing the eastern origin for the whole group. The Bessi theory is still popular over there among some of your buddies :grin:

The Greek fella along with those samples (including more than few Albanians sharing those mutations) are just Z2705* (x Y32147, Y33199), so nothing special. We actually got another one of those samples from Vlore today, Laberia region. We have more than dozen of 393=13 & 392=13 haplos that are in similar position, from across Albania (SNP confirmed).

CTS1273 was practically a single man around 2000 BC, survived like a 600 year bottleneck. Around that time is when almost all relevant sublcades that would later make an impact within Europe and beyond were born. However, that doesn't necessarily mean they started expanding right off the bat. Takes generations and even centuries for such an expansion to occur. So late Bronze Age and Iron age me thinks is when they started wondering around... I am also lately, in light of all the new evidence, thinking that it was probably Rome that really helped on the distribution we see today (by displacing Thracian, Illyrian, Macedonian and even perhaps Greek tribes).

 

[Ernekar]

Hence you see, for me this is a competition, as is for others.. Why is Trojet so bent on proving L283 Steppe hypothesis, because it is considered "more prestigious" and why is Eurogenes so aggressive in opposing it? i think he always gets upset when some non-R gets involved there..

I think Trojet has said several times that there is also a chance J2b-L283 came from Italy.
But by looking at ancient DNA, i would agree with trojet that the most safe conclusion right now is that J2b-L283 came from the steppes during the bronze age.

Trust me, it is not because we perceive the steppe as more prestigious. To be honest, personally I would much rather have J2b-L283 be related to european neolithic cultures, or even better, palaeolithic european ones.

But with an ancient distribution with mesolithic/early-neolithic J2b in Iran, neolithic J2b south of the caucasus, bronze age J2b-L283 north of the caucasus, and then again bronze age J2b-L283 in croatia, it would only be wishful or biased to think that J2b-L283 came to europe earlier than the bronze age. Of course nothing can be ruled out yet, when we have such a thin aDNA foundation, but there are still scenarios that are more likely than others; bronze age expansion from the black sea/steppe being the most likely at this time.

Eurogenes is another matter. His motive is to create a narrative where only R1a men were responsible for PIE.
In his dreams, R1a corded ware IEanized the central european R1b-rich groups. Those IEanized R1b groups would then spread italo-celtic. The R1b's who got to Iberia before they were IEanized by R1a were speaking their original languages like basque and iberian.
So in this regard you are right, for eurogenes it is a competition where he at all cost must keep the genepool of proto-indo-europeans as R1a-dominated as possible, and as J2-free as possible. Now even R1b is being pushed out from his dreamy PIE-land, as he is arguing that basques also came from the steppe with IEans. Hmm, i wonder if its R1a or R1b steppe groups he will place proto-basque in?
And he will also manipulate to get people to share his views. For example look how he tried to create confusion regarding J2b-L283 in his blog. It is a sign of desperation. Because he knows that the truth about steppe-mediated J2b-L283 is very likely soon to become fact, and it would destroy what he has been advocating for years; that the steppe languages could not have been influenced from the south, because there is no Y-dna coming into the steppe from the south. J2b-L283, some specific lineages of J2a, and even some E-V13(europe-->steppe) are the lineages which are going to prove that the steppe was indeed penetrated from both entrances, several times. It was not an impenetrable barrier as he thinks.

You should not follow the example of such a deceitful person as Eurogenes. Besides, anyone who has to much free time to create fake data and advocate lies on IE matters, is either working in a trol-factory for an intelligence company, or is a obsessed conspiracy nut living on wellfare checks.

And in the end, there i no need for any of us to "protect" E-V13, everyone knows it is one of the most succesful and strong haplogroups alive today. The balkans has been a target for migrations, invasion, plagues and expanding empires through all history and prehistory, so every lineage that has been strong enough to get a foothold and high frequency there is special. So kudos to R1b-Z2103, R1b-PF7563, E1b-V13, J2b-L283, J2b-M205, J2a-M410 and I2a-Din for being able to get where they are today.

 

[Maleth]

This is not very logical in my opinion. How can it be physically possible for someone to travel from North Africa to Romania in that day and age? What would be the reason and why this path? Not credible in my opinion.....or maybe im missing something

 

[Nik]

If I didn't have a cousin in Karcag, Cumania, or in Pecenjevce near Leskovac (named after Pechenegs), or if there wasn't monastery of Kumanica in my own native area and some other traces, I wouldn't think of connecting my clade to Cumans.. Plus Bulgarians did invade my native area in 13th century.. Also my clan has two separate traditions about "having lots of horses" and that was weird to me always..

When Hoti came first to its current location they found people who were very fond of horses and were even eating their meat (just like Sicilians, Sardinians, etc.). Also, the Albanian Stradioti of Venice were famous for almost living on horses eating very little themselves but taking better care of their horses and that they eventually rented them or sold them to rich Italian Condottieri due to their superior physical characteristics.

I'm not opposing your Cuman origin because you brought many instances of Cuman related origin but just to add my 2 cents I would like to also remind you that many of the Steppe tribes absorbed other ethnicities like Goths, Dacians, Carpi, Sarmatians, Thracians, Illyrians, etc. so as you said yourself your line could be one of the those Free Dacians due to your Balkan connection from 900 BCE.

Your supposed tribe would have absorbed so much Albanian-like admixture in Shop and even stronger one later in Montenegro, so are you sure your supposed Steppe looks come from your father and not your Bosniak mother. It is evident there's Turkish/Turkic admixture in some Albanian and Bosnian Ottoman families that could be spotted even nowadays and they're usually very old fashioned which makes it even more obvious. The Cherkez and Tatars of the Balkans are 1 example.

 

[Trojet]

Why is Trojet so bent on proving L283 Steppe hypothesis, because it is considered "more prestigious" and why is Eurogenes so aggressive in opposing it? i think he always gets upset when some non-R gets involved there..

I think you might have misunderstood me on this one. I never tried to "prove" or push for the theory that J-L283 came from the "Steppe", just that it's one of the likelihoods based on the archeogenetic finds. In fact, if you read the J-M241 thread on that other forum, you can see that initially I was in favor of the Neolithic entrance of J-L283 into Balkans/Europe. However, unlike some of you, when we got the J-L283* from LBA Armenia (Allentoft et al 2015), I quickly realized that in all likelihood it came during the Bronze Age considering its TMRCA.
I think the jury is still out whether it came through a northern Black Sea route (Steppe) or a southern one (Caucasus > Anatolia/Mediterranean). What I took an issue with Mr. Eurogenes was his disinformation, where he was using the ancient J-M205 samples as an 'evidence' that J-L283 came from the Middle East/Levant, for which there is absolutely no evidence, and I'm glad I straightened him out

 

[Dema]

This is true that Trojet was pushing Neolithic theory for long time of both E-v13 and J2-L283. Only after ancient Dalmatia J2-L283 analysis he changed his views and agreed with Steppe theory.
Also wrote this article - https://j2-m172.info/2018/02/y-snp-...l283-bronze-age-croatia-mathieson-et-al-2018/

Which is frankly very realistic and with all the evidences within this ancient sample with other ones also its hard to conclude something else.

Also its true that some people were for long time connecting migration paths and generally J2-L283 and J2-M205, including Maciamo.
But i hope they realized that these two must have had completely different migration paths.

However, as J2-M205 has Sidonian 1700 BCE ancient DNA and J2-L283 has 1600 BCE Dalmatian ancient DNA, they for sure had contact on Mediterranean sea long ago.
However, at that time J2-M205 being of probably Proto-Canaanite, Phoenician origin while J2-L283 with Illyrian, Greek and Thracian one spread with Proto-IE.

Furthermore Maciamo still makes mistake connecting J2-M205 with Iranians since its obvious that this group was spreading within Proto-Semitic>Canaanite groups.

I mean i cant blame him to be honest, group is very small and not many people know about it. But by now its clear to everyone that there is not one single Iranian on Yfull, and to be honest i never seen J2-M205 Iranian in my life, even tho i dont say that there are no J2-M205 Iranians, but even if they are there, they are of Semitic and not of Iranian ancestry and this group is for sure almost none existent and irrelevant among Iranians.

 

[Piro Ilir]

I certainty agree, Greeks were for long time trying to assimilate Illyrians, and only these that would assimilate would stop being called barbarians.
I will check into Stipcevic book later, he mentions few Greek tribes that are probably of Illyrian origin but i forgot since i read a book long ago.

Unfortunately for most of the time it was the other way around. Were the Illyrians whom worked hard to be Hellenic. Mycenaean bronze age and later iron age Athenian civilization were really prestigious ones. Just look at the founding myth of the Dorians with the so called the return of Heracleidaes, and whether with the later founding myth of the Royal house of Macedon. Hence, all this Ev13 stuff it's too complicated. I still suggest for a bronze age spread with the Illyrians from northern Caspian along with J2b2 and Z2103.
Ev13 in Balkans is extremely higher today compared with G2a. During Old Europe farmer civilization G2a was clearly dominant.
The reason why we may find in iron age Tracian tombs the Ev13, it would be explained with the advance of Illyrian tribes. Tribali and Scordisci were originally Tracian and Celtic. Likewise the Dardani were probably of Tracian origin, later assimilated into Illyrian.
These are my assumptions from what I did read from archeology, DNA and history.

 

[Piro Ilir]

the Greeks had success with their assimilation techniques like theaters, sculpting and building with Macedonians and partially with Thracians. When the tried the same technique with Illyrians it did not work, since Illyrians functioned as tribes, they did not trust the foreigner, and started to harass the colonies of Greek cities making their life impossible. If Rome did not rise on time most of Italy would be Greece today.

Well, the social structure of Spartans Epirots and Macedonians was a lot more tribalian rather than was the one in other Greeks.

 

[Piro Ilir]

You guys dont understand that this ancient Balkan E-L618 is from Neolithic, only one portion of his sons, where only one portion of E-v13 is included - 4800 years TMRCA one. They later joined with Proto-IE and spread in Bronze Age, practically wiping out most Neolithic groups, including his forefather L618 and partially none IE E-v13s. This was all talked about few pages back.

Hence why L618* v13- does not exist anymore in living population except one survivor in Sardinia, also why E-v13 TMRCA was reduced from formed date 8100 years to 4800 years. Meaning they all died in Bronze Age expansion where this specific portion of E-v13 was also taking place. https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-L618/

Hence why Paleolithic and Neolithic haplogorup I1 was reduced to exactly same TMRCA. Only these that survived BA expansion managed to survive and then expand again.

Piro Ilir join foleja.net Albanian forum if you have more questions like that and have respect to Flor since he is doing large volunteer job running Albanian project and everything so your beginner questions are last things he should worry about but im sure they will all be answered or at least together analysed. I dont see what haplogroup G has anything with this discussion and why are you mentioning it.

Haplogroup G2a was the dominant haplogroup in Vinca culture and surrounding cultures. Albanians have a lot of Ev13 , meanwhile have maximum 1% of G2a. Albanians or Illyrians brought the Ev13 with them from the Caspian steppe. They didn't absorbed it here in southeast Europe. If it was the case, then they would have a lot more G2a haplo

 

[Dema]

Unfortunately for most of the time it was the other way around. Were the Illyrians whom worked hard to be Hellenic. Mycenaean bronze age and later iron age Athenian civilization were really prestigious ones. Just look at the founding myth of the Dorians with the so called the return of Heracleidaes, and whether with the later founding myth of the Royal house of Macedon.

This is nonsense, even tho i dont want to undervalue Ancient Greek civilization, it was Greeks for centuries trying to assimilate Illyrians.
Greeks have started with colonizing Illyrian territories pretty early on in history, around 630 BCE with founding Epidamnos that Romans later later renamed into Dyrrhachium.
Then later around 580 BCE they also establish their Apollonia colony, which remains you can see from Pojanë manastir in South Albania.
In 3th centrury BCE these colonies have lost their Hellenic cultural spirit. In fourth century BCE also they start with severe colonization of Illyrian lands, like isles Issu today Vis, and Pharos today Hvar in Croatia and so on.
Greeks and Illyrians share history of plenty of wars and hatred in between them, until they both dont get finally fully conquered by Romans.

But of course, in between all these wars, violence, colonization and so on, there is always trading and social interactions. Even friendship.

 

[Piro Ilir]

V13 has nothing to do with Steppe nomads. They obviously picked it up once they entered Europe, specifically the Balkans. That much is evident going by aDNA.

If I'm not wrong, I remember that Ev13 was found in iron age Scythians in Caspian steppe. Ev13 might have crossed Caucasus along with J2b2 from the middle east during Neolithic, as cattle or goat herders. E1b1 north African tribes are recorded as nomadic goat herders

 

[Kelmendasi]

If I'm not wrong, I remember that Ev13 was found in iron age Scythians in Caspian steppe. Ev13 might have crossed Caucasus along with J2b2 from the middle east during Neolithic, as cattle or goat herders. E1b1 north African tribes are recorded as nomadic goat herders

That Scythian sample was from Glinoe, Moldova. Autosomally it was very similar to Albanians and Greeks and not other western Scythian samples. This tells us that he was likely not an Iranic-speaking Scythian but rather just a native who lived in Moldova, possibly Dacian. I think it's unlikely that E-V13 crossed through the Caucasus. The most likely scenario is that certain clades, such as CTS5856, got absorbed by PIE speakers somewhere in central or eastern Europe and then dispersed with them.