E-V13 subclades in Greece

[Leka]

Yes i excepted that but it turned out not to be true. I could aactually see that because as I collected 27 STR's from several studies for this haplotype it looked similar to the others so I said to the Serb dys392=12 guy, you separation was likely 1400 ybp..

But wait, hasn't Trojet identified an SNP which marks the transition into dys393=13? Greek has 12, so he still must be one step above..

According to YFulll he hasn't split the Z2705 node as is, so he is just another equivalent sub-branch to Zirnic, Selmani and Ownstyler. ​However, FTDNA uses BY38894 which he tested negative for while the rest of the samples there are BY38894+. BY38894 is pretty unstable SNP to begin with, though. YSEQ doesn't test it and YFull doesn't use it in their analysis either. So yeah, currently there he does represent an earlier split based on this unstable SNP....


I am hopping he upgrades to Y700 because his Big Y500 was pretty low coverage. If the coverage increases we might find another stable SNP that will represent that split. If that split ends up not being real, I am thinking 393 could have back-mutated on these samples - which is possible because I have seen 393=13 and 392=11 in one of the scientific studies (from Albania I believe).

Either way soon enough we will know what the deal is even if he doesn't upgrade. As we speak a 393=12 and 392=13 fella is returning his kit to Dante. Plus the new fella from Vlore sharing those mutations (393=12 and 392=11) just ordered a kit from Dante as well.

 

[Piro Ilir]

That Scythian sample was from Glinoe, Moldova. Autosomally it was very similar to Albanians and Greeks and not other western Scythian samples. This tells us that he was likely not an Iranic-speaking Scythian but rather just a native who lived in Moldova, possibly Dacian. I think it's unlikely that E-V13 crossed through the Caucasus. The most likely scenario is that certain clades, such as CTS5856, got absorbed by PIE speakers somewhere in central or eastern Europe and then dispersed with them.

If it was found in an Skythian site or settlement as they say, it probably was Skythian and not Dacian. Dacians and Scythians were distinct ethnic people as far as we know from ancient records and archeology. Scythians were an Iranid people, while Dacians weren't.

If J2b became part of nomadic Caspian steppe cultural fusion, I don't see why Ev13 couldn't be!?

Till now we may be sure only that J2b2 and Z2103 were the Illyrian Y-dna core haplogroups. Ev13, is still to be analyze. My assumption that Ev13 crossed through Caucasus was just an assumption.

 

[Piro Ilir]

Unlikely that Illyric speakers or Proto-Albanian speakers are the reason for the spread of E-V13 into the Balkans. Only a few groups of V13 can be linked to PIE expansion, CTS5856 is the main one. However, CTS5856 seems to have an origin in SE Europe or somewhere nearby going by current data. So we can assume that it didn't necessarily expand from the Pontic-Caspian steppe but rather that it got absorbed somewhere close by and then dispersed. Many V13 groups in the Balkans certainly pre-date the Illyric formation and are the result of earlier migration. V13 itself though expanded from the Balkans originally.

It is also very likely that the Illyrians themselves just developed from local Balkan IE cultures that migrated during the Bronze Age, and so they weren't a separate group that migrated directly from the steppe. Same goes for Albanians, who likely stem from an Illyric speaking population.

The part about if E-V13 got absorbed in the Balkans then G2a would be higher is incorrect. Y-DNA frequencies can fluctuate pretty easily, this can be due to the lack of male offspring as well as war and disease. This is especially the case when it comes to the Bronze Age, which saw the expansion of a pretty war-like people that studies show carried diseases that local farmers weren't immune to. G2a declined all-over Europe after the Neolithic. And so a certain haplogroup can replace another pretty easily.

When I meant 'Illyrians, I meant proto Illyrians. IE people, weren't a group of people in the steppe co existing peacefully with each other. They were divided into distinct nomadic tribes. Proto proto Illyrians were one of these tribes whom spoke an IE dialect. IE tribes were more homogeneous Y-dna because of their different culture, from the rest of Europeans whom were more socially peaceful and matrilineal in some extent.

The reason why G2a declined rapidly due to IE genocide. This is proven by archeology.
The difference between G2a and other dominant Albanian haplogroups is extremely high. It can't be explained by what you say. G2a can be found all over Europe but in little percentages, while Ev13 isn't dispersed all over Europe but only in places where Illyrians or proto proto Illyrians were present.

 

[Piro Ilir]

Listen, stop spamming and quoting me. It was not Albanians neither Illyrians spread with proto-IE cultures but Indo-Europeans themselves.
Illyrians, Celts, Greeks, Dacians, Thracians are just groups that developed later out of these Indo-Europeans.
Indo-European Bronze Age invasion must have been from 2500 to 1500 BCE, later they must have started to form into these Paleo-European but also Paleo-Balkan populations you are mentioning.
G2a is Neolithic Caucasus migrant that probably picked up agriculture somewhere in Levant and spread it to Anatolia and rest of Neolithic Europe.

First thing, calme down. We are just talking here.
Secondly, I know for sure that there wasn't any Illyrian language back then in 3000 bce. Instead, there was a proto proto Illyrian tribe in the Caspian steppe living a nomadic way of life. Probably this IE tribe had Z2103 and some J2b2 with them. Maybe Ev13 too, but this is a matter of debate.

 

[Piro Ilir]

Why are you continuing to quote me and post nonsense here? I would say nothing if your posts would be reasonable but you are way behind in knowledge and i suggest reading rather then posting is a good option.

But since you said it.. By linguists, Aromun/Vlach language split from Romanian in 10 century CE, they still can very well understand each other. Therefore we can assume that modern Romanian is from 10 century CE. Albanian is also heavy Latinized but resisted total Latinization when its core in fact remained of Paleo-Balkan Illyrian origin together with lots of words. But even in modern Albanian there is plenty of words with Latin, Slavic, Tukic, Germanic and so on origins.

Furthermore regarding genetics, Romanians are mix of mostly Paleo-Balkan populations but also with huge amount of direct Slavic lines. I believe that they viciously resisted Slavicization even in recent history.
But when observing their genetics, one great portion of their direct paternal lines is in fact Slavic in origin. So they are like mix of Balkan post Roman Latinized remains including Illyrians Thracians Dacians and Greeks with nice amount of later arriving Slavic Y-DNA lines. And of course plenty of smaller one.

Y-dna and genetics in general are not definition for the Ethnicity. It was Albanian language what makes Albanians descendants of Illyrians, it is not their Y-dna.
I claimed that Romanians are romanized Illyrians due to their language structure. It is close to Albanian one, even though it today is the whole Latinized.
Yes, Romanians have some Slavic Y-dna, but this doesn't makes them Slavs, the same as member Apsburg here isn't an Albanian because his Y-dna is related with Albanians. Y-dna isn't a definition for one's ethnicity

 

[Kelmendasi]

The reason why G2a declined rapidly due to IE genocide. This is proven by archeology.
The difference between G2a and other dominant Albanian haplogroups is extremely high. It can't be explained by what you say. G2a can be found all over Europe but in little percentages, while Ev13 isn't dispersed all over Europe but only in places where Illyrians or proto proto Illyrians were present.

Yes it can, it is clear that the Albanian population has undergone genetic bottlenecks which means that certain haplogroups have increased in frequency and others have decreased. I also did mention that G2a declined massively due to PIE invasions. You should also take into account the fact that Y-DNA haplogroups can be replaced, the paper on Iberia showed just how significant this replacement could've been. E-V13 is in fact dispersed across Europe, there are certain groups in northern Europe, such as E-L540, that have nothing to do with the Balkans going by the current data that we have. The fact still is that just because there isn't high G2a in Albanians, it doesn't mean E-V13 wasn't absorbed in SE Europe.

 

[Kelmendasi]

If it was found in an Skythian site or settlement as they say, it probably was Skythian and not Dacian. Dacians and Scythians were distinct ethnic people as far as we know from ancient records and archeology. Scythians were an Iranid people, while Dacians weren't.

If J2b became part of nomadic Caspian steppe cultural fusion, I don't see why Ev13 couldn't be!?

Till now we may be sure only that J2b2 and Z2103 were the Illyrian Y-dna core haplogroups. Ev13, is still to be analyze. My assumption that Ev13 crossed through Caucasus was just an assumption.

The paper mentions how diverse the Scythians were and that they absorbed other ethnic groups, so it is very likely that it was a local in that area and not an Iranic Scythian. The autosomal result proves this, it is nothing like the actual western Scythians.

Because J2b-L283 and E-V13 have two completely different migration routes and are completely unrelated. E-V13 was absorbed by PIE speakers, that is clear, but most probably not in the Pontic-Caspian steppe and not that early on.

It is only believed that J2b-L283 and R-Z2103 may have been the haplogroups that arrived the people speaking a language ancestral to the Illyrian languages. E-V13 surely became pretty dominant among them later when they established themselves in the Balkans. Certain Illyrian groups were probably E-V13 dominated.

 

[Piro Ilir]

Yes it can, it is clear that the Albanian population has undergone genetic bottlenecks which means that certain haplogroups have increased in frequency and others have decreased. I also did mention that G2a declined massively due to PIE invasions. You should also take into account the fact that Y-DNA haplogroups can be replaced, the paper on Iberia showed just how significant this replacement could've been. E-V13 is in fact dispersed across Europe, there are certain groups in northern Europe, such as E-L540, that have nothing to do with the Balkans going by the current data that we have. The fact still is that just because there isn't high G2a in Albanians, it doesn't mean E-V13 wasn't absorbed in SE Europe.

I understand what you say. Still the gap between G2a and Ev13 in Albanians is too large. Can't be explained with what you say. It's impossible. This go even worse if we take in account that G2a is found in south east Albanian inhabited areas, or better saying in supposed ancient Macedonian controlled areas. The Gheg regions have zero G2a. Just look at the G2a maps.
Ev13 in post IE Europe is related with the iron age. It's clear that there's no Ev13 in Basques , likewise in Celtic Britain. All Ev13 seems related with iron age expansions/invasions. It didn't spread with the IE bronze age invasion, except the Illyrian branch

 

[Piro Ilir]

The paper mentions how diverse the Scythians were and that they absorbed other ethnic groups, so it is very likely that it was a local in that area and not an Iranic Scythian. The autosomal result proves this, it is nothing like the actual western Scythians.
Because J2b-L283 and E-V13 have two completely different migration routes and are completely unrelated. E-V13 was absorbed by PIE speakers, that is clear, but most probably not in the Pontic-Caspian steppe and not that early on.
It is only believed that J2b-L283 and R-Z2103 may have been the haplogroups that arrived the people speaking a language ancestral to the Illyrian languages. E-V13 surely became pretty dominant among them later when they established themselves in the Balkans. Certain Illyrian groups were probably E-V13 dominated.



Yes, Ev13 and J2b2 may have had different migration routes. Still don't get it , why you think it couldn't be absorbed earlier in the steppe the same as J2b2.
I generally don't believe a certain bottleneck of Albanians or proto Albanians. There was a bottleneck 1400 years ago probably, but not such huge as you claim. The main anti Albanian thesis which was spread by Albanian foes, was that during middle age Albanians lived in one tiny village somewhere unknown , and than suddenly exploded multipling like rabbits expanding all over.

 

[Kelmendasi]

I understand what you say. Still the gap between G2a and Ev13 in Albanians is too large. Can't be explained with what you say. It's impossible. This go even worse if we take in account that G2a is found in south east Albanian inhabited areas, or better saying in supposed ancient Macedonian controlled areas. The Gheg regions have zero G2a. Just look at the G2a maps.
Ev13 in post IE Europe is related with the iron age. It's clear that there's no Ev13 in Basques , likewise in Celtic Britain. All Ev13 seems related with iron age expansions/invasions. It didn't spread with the IE bronze age invasion, except the Illyrian branch

The gap between haplogroups in frequency doesn't matter. You have still yet to explain yourself on how it doesn't work. I already explained that some branches, L540 especially, don't seem to be related to an expansion from the Balkans and so are likely local branches under CTS1273. L540's formation was during the Bronze Age. G2a has been found among Ghegs but at smaller percentages. Can you tell me which branch is this Bronze Age Illyrian branch?

 

[Kelmendasi]

Yes, Ev13 and J2b2 may have had different migration routes. Still don't get it , why you think it couldn't be absorbed earlier in the steppe the same as J2b2.
I generally don't believe a certain bottleneck of Albanians or proto Albanians. There was a bottleneck 1400 years ago probably, but not such huge as you claim. The main anti Albanian thesis which was spread by Albanian foes, was that during middle age Albanians lived in one tiny village somewhere unknown , and than suddenly exploded multipling like rabbits expanding all over.

Because there simply isn't any evidence to back it up. The most likely scenario is that it got picked up maybe somewhere near the Carpathians or Balkans by PIE speakers, this is backed up by aDNA which shows that M78 was present in the Neolithic Cucuteni-Trypillian culture as well as L618 in Neolithic Dalmatia and Hungary. As well as CTS1273 likely originating in the Balkans. J2b-L283 on the other hand is believed to have migrated to the Russian steppe via the Caucasus where it then got picked up early on by PIE speakers. I'm not claiming it was huge, just saying that it happened and that maybe it could have something to do with haplogroup frequencies. Albanians certainly weren't living in one village or small area, but our numbers did dwindle during the early Medieval.

 

[Piro Ilir]

The gap between haplogroups in frequency doesn't matter. You have still yet to explain yourself on how it doesn't work. I already explained that some branches, L540 especially, don't seem to be related to an expansion from the Balkans and so are likely local branches under CTS1273. L540's formation was during the Bronze Age. G2a has been found among Ghegs but at smaller percentages. Can you tell me which branch is this Bronze Age Illyrian branch?

View attachment 10882


I'm sorry but I'm ignorant about genetics. This is what I understand. Anyway, I don't think that Ev13 was all proto proto Illyrian in the steppe. Maybe the Ev13 of Illyrians became more successful. Or Ev13 in Balkans has mostly an Tracian origin. I bet for proto Illyrian.
Just look at the map of G2a. It don't exist in Gheg areas. In Kosova it's zero %. The best place to understand Albanian Y-dna is Kosova if we don't take in account the Slavic Y-dna there.

 

[Kelmendasi]

View attachment 10882


I'm sorry but I'm ignorant about genetics. This is what I understand. Anyway, I don't think that Ev13 was all proto proto Illyrian in the steppe. Maybe the Ev13 of Illyrians became more successful. Or Ev13 in Balkans has mostly an Tracian origin. I bet for proto Illyrian.
Just look at the map of G2a. It don't exist in Gheg areas. In Kosova it's zero %. The best place to understand Albanian Y-dna is Kosova if we don't take in account the Slavic Y-dna there.

G2a does exist in Gheg areas of Albania, but at very small frequencies. On the Albanian Y-DNA project a guy from Mat tested as G2a-M406 as well as some Albanians from Kosovo on 23andme that tested as G2a. It reaches a higher frequency among Tosks when compared to Ghegs though. I wouldn't necessarily say that Kosovo is the best place to understand Albanian Y-DNA. Any region that has low Slavic input would be a good candidate for that.

 

[Piro Ilir]

Because there simply isn't any evidence to back it up. The most likely scenario is that it got picked up maybe somewhere near the Carpathians or Balkans by PIE speakers, this is backed up by aDNA which shows that M78 was present in the Neolithic Cucuteni-Trypillian culture as well as L618 in Neolithic Dalmatia and Hungary. As well as CTS1273 likely originating in the Balkans. J2b-L283 on the other hand is believed to have migrated to the Russian steppe via the Caucasus where it then got picked up early on by PIE speakers. I'm not claiming it was huge, just saying that it happened and that maybe it could have something to do with haplogroup frequencies. Albanians certainly weren't living in one village or small area, but our numbers did dwindle during the early Medieval.

Albanians did dwindled during early middle age I certainly am aware of it. Anyway their areas of dwelling weren't struck in a small area. Tosk and Gheg had shifted as dialects since before the Slavic migration, hence the area was probably big.

Ev13 being picked up in Carpathians is a totally nonsense for someone who has some basic knowledge on IE expansion. Marija Gimbutas has done a good work on this field. Ev13 wasn't picked up by any of the IE tribes. Neolithic farmers were full of G2a and still it wasn't picked up by IE tribes. It was simply because IE warlike people did a true genocide against natives and they didn't mixed with them. My assumption is that Ev13 in Balkans was already part of IE tribes and linguistic/ethnos before their expansion. Almost all Ev13 in modern Europe spread with IE tribes, likely Illyrian or Tracian.
According to Marina Gimbutas, Neolithic farmers of Trypillian culture of Moldavia and Western Ukraine, were all in total fugitive from IE warriors when the later came from the east. These farmers were all taking refuge in remote areas. The happened in other parts of Europe where G2a is found today in remote isolated areas. It's the same with the Slavic Y-dna that we call I2a-din. It has origin in Pripet Marshes which was a very hostile area. They survived the R1 IE genocide by taking refuge in Pripet Marshes.
Early IE tribes of the bronze age didn't picked up any minor Y-dna simply because they were very wild bloodthirsty people. Extremely patrilineal. The only saved there was the mt-dna.

The Etruscans probably of Neolithic farming origin survived by escaping in remote areas as Alps, Crete, Sardinia, remote areas of South Balkans as Peloponnese or Pindus and Lynkesti, and whether certain islands in Aegean.

 

[Kelmendasi]

Albanians did dwindled during early middle age I certainly am aware of it. Anyway their areas of dwelling weren't struck in a small area. Tosk and Gheg had shifted as dialects since before the Slavic migration, hence the area was probably big.

Ev13 being picked up in Carpathians is a totally nonsense for someone who has some basic knowledge on IE expansion. Marija Gimbutas has done a good work on this field. Ev13 wasn't picked up by any of the IE tribes. Neolithic farmers were full of G2a and still it wasn't picked up by IE tribes. It was simply because IE warlike people did a true genocide against natives and they didn't mixed with them. My assumption is that Ev13 in Balkans was already part of IE tribes and linguistic/ethnos before their expansion. Almost all Ev13 in modern Europe spread with IE tribes, likely Illyrian or Tracian.
According to Marina Gimbutas, Neolithic farmers of Trypillian culture of Moldavia and Western Ukraine, were all in total fugitive from IE warriors when the later came from the east. These farmers were all taking refuge in remote areas. The happened in other parts of Europe where G2a is found today in remote isolated areas. It's the same with the Slavic Y-dna that we call I2a-din. It has origin in Pripet Marshes which was a very hostile area. They survived the R1 IE genocide by taking refuge in Pripet Marshes.
Early IE tribes of the bronze age didn't picked up any minor Y-dna simply because they were very wild bloodthirsty people. Extremely patrilineal. The only saved there was the mt-dna.

The Etruscans probably of Neolithic farming origin survived by escaping in remote areas as Alps, Crete, Sardinia, remote areas of South Balkans as Peloponnese or Pindus and Lynkesti, and whether certain islands in Aegean.

Certain G2a clades certainly were picked up by IE speakers, there are clades which have distributions and expansion linked to IE expansion. Saying that IE peoples didn't mix with locals is completely incorrect, we have samples that are clear mixes of locals and PIE speakers. Some even having local farmer or HG Y-DNA and steppe mtDNA. The presence of V13 in the Balkans certainly pre-dates any PIE presence, it's origin is in the Neolithic Balkans. Yes they were very patriarchal and war-like but they still did pick up local non-R1 lineages, aDNA proves this. If anything they were really good at imposing themselves as the elite over foreign populations, things like this forced them to pick up foreign lineages through assimilation.

The Etruscans likely originate somewhere in the Aegean and only migrated to Italy in the Bronze Age after the IE settlement of the peninsula. They seem to have imposed themselves as an elite over the local IE population in Italy. Multiple Etruscan city names show IE origin as well as native river names and place names also showing IE origin, as well as the strong connection between Etruscan and languages such as Lemnian.

 

[JajarBingan]

I do not understand how do people think the peoples of today are the same as 3000 years ago?

Due to nationalism + inferiority complex

 

[LeonardoEv13]

More like due to refusal of intermixing... some people simply choose not to intermix, Albanians have the tendency (historically speaking) of a arranged tribal marriages, which clan, which tribe and so on... this is practiced even today but it’s getting less and less... you also have to understand how things work, key word here Labeling/branding which Greeks brought into play, with that being said Albanians (named from a Illyrian tribe called Albanoi) are illyrians (named in reference to free peoples) & Illyrians are shqiptares/skipitares (named in reference to eagles, eagle people) change the name and confusion begins, for outsiders that it and not for Albanians as Albanians have and always had the tendency to attribute names based on meanings & places... when you apply all the above mentioned to YDNA all is at par with one another... their appeal in appearance is second to none as well, it’s distinguishable, the Balkan Albanians have a fierce cheek bones and jawline structure, artistic people can understand and relate to what I’m saying...

Cheers and love the info on this forum

 

[HarryRussell]

cool topic and forum

 

[ΦΑΙΔΩΝ]

If you don't know the Hellenic history you should learn it. And if you did , then you would know that the first Hellenic speaking tribes arived in the area of todays Albania at the end of 3rd millennium bc.
We already had the first setelments in mainland Greece since 2200 bc. Dna studies will provide asistance to archeology and history , they will not substitude those sciences! For nations with enormous and dominant history that goes without saying. For nations with no or little history , dna studies seem very apealling. But in the end history is not gonna change. Revisionism , on the basis of ultranationalism , see Albanians , is doomed to fail.

 

[ΦΑΙΔΩΝ]

If you don't know the Hellenic history you should learn it. And if you did , then you would know that the first Hellenic speaking tribes arived in the area of todays Albania at the end of 3rd millennium bc.
We already had the first setelments in mainland Greece since 2200 bc. Dna studies will provide asistance to archeology and history , they will not substitude those sciences! For nations with enormous and dominant history that goes without saying. For nations with no or little history , dna studies seem very apealling. But in the end history is not gonna change. Revisionism , on the basis of ultranationalism , see Albanians , is doomed to fail.