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Thread: Knez Dervan's Serbia and the Ethnogenisis of Balkan Serbs

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vlad82 View Post
    Thank you Kingslav!
    I also belong to I2a dinaric. Unfortunately I have not done autosomal test yet.
    Do you know your deeper SNP of I2a dinaric?
    I2a1b2-L621

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kingslav View Post
    I2a1b2-L621
    Dinaric south or north?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vlad82 View Post
    Dinaric south or north?
    Dinaric north

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    Quote Originally Posted by stoningbull54 View Post
    Here's my K36 map. Post yours if you can:
    I cant see map

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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Leka View Post
    Original Serbs were Jatts, they came from India.
    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Did you come here to make an arss of yourself? Stupidities like this you can post on your facebook or your own website.
    In reality it is true that they can share common ancestry but the Gets (Getae) the noblest of the Thracians or Jats as they are known in India did not came from India,but rather opposite.Similarities of their names were noted long time ago and for the Jats Scythian origin is determined,this is proven by genetics now.
    The Massagetae from written sources and the Dahae (Dacians) that lived near Indo-Aryans were noted long ago,the fact that they speak Indo-Iranian languages today doesn't mean that's their original origin.

    Jat People Genetics

    A recent study of the people of Indian Punjab, where about 40% or more of the population are Jat people, strongly shows that the Jat people are Indo-Scythians.[102] The study involved a genealogical DNA test which examined single nucleotide polymorphisms (mutations in a single DNA "letter") on the Y chromosome (which occurs only in males). Jats share many common haplotypes with Ukrainian people, Germanic people, Slavic people, Baltic peoples, Iranian people, and Central Asian groups.[103] This strongly indicates they originate from near or in Ukraine.[104] It found Jat people share only two haplotypes, one of which is also shared with the population of present-day Turkish people, and have few matches with neighbouring Pakistani populations.[105] This haplotype shared between the two Jat groups may be part of an Indo-Aryan (or Indo-European people) genetic contribution to these populations, where as the haplotypes shared with other Eurasian populations is due to the strong DNA contributions of Indo-European Scythians (Saka, Massagetae) and White Huns
    The mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) female DNA, Jats contain haplogroups typical of Northern India, Pakistan, and West Asia. This indicates that for the female mtDNA, there is very little connection with Central Asian and northwest European populations, even though Jats share many Y-SNP markers with these populations. Therefore, this DNA Study proves that there has been male DNA into the Jat people from Ukrainian Scythians (Saka, Massagetae) and White Huns.[107]
    The highlighted DNA Study suggests that there has been male DNA into the Jat people from Ukrainian Scythians (Saka, Massagetae) and White Huns
    Old name of the Sclavenes(Slavs) is Gets,the truth is different,despite we like to turn it upsite down.

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    According to Serbian legend and the Byzantine Chronicles, the Serbs left an area known as "White Serbia"
    White Serba is not mentioned anywhere in writing, so it's a lie


    This archon was said to be the son of Knez Dervan who ruled over an area of East Germany in the area which is today inhabited by Sorbs
    Sorbs have nothing to do with Balkan Serbs, so Dervan historically can only be related with Sorbs

    Could the elevated frequency of I2a1 in southeast Germany and western Czech Republic be the result of a Serbian presence in the dark ages? It is quite evident that there is an elevated frequency of I2a1 in the areas ascribed in Byzantine Chronicles as the location from which Serbs migrated to the Balkans.
    We do not look in Europe where is more or less I2a, we look where is source of the same.
    In Germany is certainly not a source of I2a which have Balkan peoples.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stoningbull54 View Post
    The Serbian homeland before the migration to "White Serbia" was known as Boyka. There is a theory that the Boykos are the remnants of the Serbs before their western migration to East Germany, while the Hutsuls are the remnants of the Croats before they began their migration westward. Have you done this Eurogenes K36 map before using your gedmatch results? I would be curious to see what results you get. The link you can use to tabulate your results is below as is my map.

    http://gen3553.pagesperso-orange.fr/ADN/similitude.htm

    Attachment 8958
    The Serbian homeland before the migration to "White Serbia" was known as Boyka.
    There is no historical record about it

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    Quote Originally Posted by stoningbull54 View Post
    What Leka is presenting is a theory, while what I am presenting is history from a Byzantine historical chronicle which stated that the Serbs arrived from "White Serbia". What I am trying to say is this validated by an elevated frequency of I2a1 in their supposed homeland.

    White Serbia is not mentioned anywhere. Serbian history is not based on truth and that's why leads to confusion.
    Last edited by hrvat22; 10-09-17 at 19:59.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hrvat22 View Post
    Serbian history is not based on truth and that's why leads to confusion.
    This sentence is very offensive and it is wrong. But if you extend view you can see some similarities between Serbian history, Croatian history, Bulgarian history, Hungarian history, and many other European nations history... What Croatian scientist Dr Dzino noticed that different people (nations) feed on similar myths in their own versions. Unfortunately records, especially in further past, are not reliable. They are transcripts of transcripts or oral stories with many changes and additions. You can add myths, biased interpreters etc. And from the time of building of nations (19th century) politics has taken the lead. Here at Eupedia we are trying to find some reliable parameters based on the research of genetic genealogy, it's a giant jigsaw puzzle where we have a few parts for now.
    Quote Originally Posted by hrvat22 View Post
    Sorbs have nothing to do with Balkan Serbs, so Dervan historically can only be related with Sorbs
    Yes. And on another thread already I wrote about it. Dervan's Serbia was country of Lusatuian Sorbs not Balkan Serbs. And Lusatian Sorbs have different genetics. Practically whole thread is on the wrong grounds.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Garrick View Post
    This sentence is very offensive and it is wrong. But if you extend view you can see some similarities between Serbian history, Croatian history, Bulgarian history, Hungarian history, and many other European nations history... What Croatian scientist Dr Dzino noticed that different people (nations) feed on similar myths in their own versions. Unfortunately records, especially in further past, are not reliable. They are transcripts of transcripts or oral stories with many changes and additions. You can add myths, biased interpreters etc. And from the time of building of nations (19th century) politics has taken the lead. Here at Eupedia we are trying to find some reliable parameters based on the research of genetic genealogy, it's a giant jigsaw puzzle where we have a few parts for now. Yes. And on another thread already I wrote about it. Dervan's Serbia was country of Lusatuian Sorbs not Balkan Serbs. And Lusatian Sorbs have different genetics. Practically whole thread is on the wrong grounds.
    Serbian wiki...White Serbia

    https://sr.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%91...B8%D1%98%D0%B0

    If White Serbia does not exist in writing then why in Serbia claim that she exists...

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    Quote Originally Posted by hrvat22 View Post
    Serbian wiki...White Serbia

    https://sr.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%91...B8%D1%98%D0%B0

    If White Serbia does not exist in writing then why in Serbia claim that she exists...
    If you read Pjanovic-Lukovic Olga, Sorbonne PhD, yes, she was linguist, she claims that Bosnia and Slavonia were White Serbia, but she is not Serbian science mainstream.

    In Serbia you will never heard "White Serbs" it does not exists in national memory.

    Someone can find in Serbia stories and fair tales about Roman period in the Balkans but nowhere and nothing about White Serbs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Garrick View Post
    If you read Pjanovic-Lukovic Olga, Sorbonne PhD, yes, she was linguist, she claims that Bosnia and Slavonia were White Serbia, but she is not Serbian science mainstream.

    In Serbia you will never heard "White Serbs" it does not exists in national memory.

    Someone can find in Serbia stories and fair tales about Roman period in the Balkans but nowhere and nothing about White Serbs.
    Emperor Constantine Porphyrogenitus said one testimony, which is undoubtedly the Serbo-Croatian origin, and consists in this: that Croats came to the south from White Croatia, and Serbs from White Serbia, Bojke,
    It was written by Vladimir Ćorović (1885-1941) ..Was a leading 20th-century Serbian historian, since 1919 he has been a professor at the Faculty of Philosophy of the University of Belgrade. For the academic of the Serbian Royal Academy (later SANU) was elected in 1922.

    https://www.rastko.rs/rastko-bl/isto...ija/1_3_l.html

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladim...%86orovi%C4%87


    There is no written document that mentione White Serbia, and for White Serbia in Bosnia I hear for the first time.
    Last edited by hrvat22; 30-09-17 at 10:58.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hrvat22 View Post
    There is no written document that mentione White Serbia, and for White Serbia in Bosnia I hear for the first time.
    If you like these sources as: Olga Lukovic Pjanic (PhD Sorbonne) "Serbs, the people the oldest" (autochthonous school).

    Unfortunately Serbs didn't have good own historians, mostly Serbian history wrote researchers who were not Serbs, what is interesting good Serbian historians mostly dealt with other topics (no national history).

    Croats worked much harder on Croatian history.

    Two schools shaped Serbian history Slavic school and German school. Third is autochthonous school which has no recognition.

    Slavic school tends to see Serbs as part of Slavic group of nations, there were a lot of Slavic historians who explored Serbian history, from the Czechs to the Russians.

    Problem is always when someone speaks about history - politics. Where the facts end in favor of politics.

    It is a very broad topic, not for this thread.

    I don't know where Olga Lukovic-Pjanic found sources about White Serbs, but they are not Serbian.

    What is fact is:
    Serbs never call themselves White Serbs, it does not exist in national memory, no one story, fair tale, myth, folk poetry, nothing.

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    Good day everyone, I've been reading lately most of the posts related to I2a haplogroups and i have noticed that a lot of peoples are posting their theories based on weak wikipedia knowledge . Moreover, I am surprised that theory of the great slaves migration to Balkan is still used (very often here) even though it is proven to be wrong. Some of the countries already removed this theory from their curriculum such as Italy, Spain, Netherlands following the modern science and disregarding theories without proof. Yet Serbs and Croats are still referring to falls history made by Austro-Hungerians in 2nd half of 19th century with one purpose: to colonize Balkan, providing others the chance to steal their heritage, and i am not talking only about common people but historians as well. At least it is proven that there was no "great migration" but more likely the opposite. I've seen so many bickering between Serbs and Croats about the origin, neglecting the fact that the Illyrians, our ancestors, were settled in western Balkan long time before so-called the great migration. If someone want to make some conclusion about the origin, it is not easy, and all the DNA data needs to be read in conjunction with the true history facts in order to make clear picture. Wikipedia is unreliable so i strongly recommend not to be used. I've seen many times guys taking some sentences from the books which they have never read completely out of the context. This is the correct way to confuse your self and post complete nonsense.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Crya View Post
    Good day everyone, I've been reading lately most of the posts related to I2a haplogroups and i have noticed that a lot of peoples are posting their theories based on weak wikipedia knowledge . Moreover, I am surprised that theory of the great slaves migration to Balkan is still used (very often here) even though it is proven to be wrong. Some of the countries already removed this theory from their curriculum such as Italy, Spain, Netherlands following the modern science and disregarding theories without proof. Yet Serbs and Croats are still referring to falls history made by Austro-Hungerians in 2nd half of 19th century with one purpose: to colonize Balkan, providing others the chance to steal their heritage, and i am not talking only about common people but historians as well. At least it is proven that there was no "great migration" but more likely the opposite. I've seen so many bickering between Serbs and Croats about the origin, neglecting the fact that the Illyrians, our ancestors, were settled in western Balkan long time before so-called the great migration. If someone want to make some conclusion about the origin, it is not easy, and all the DNA data needs to be read in conjunction with the true history facts in order to make clear picture. Wikipedia is unreliable so i strongly recommend not to be used. I've seen many times guys taking some sentences from the books which they have never read completely out of the context. This is the correct way to confuse your self and post complete nonsense.
    Novi Pazar is that you?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Leka View Post
    Original Serbs were Jatts, they came from India.
    First time i hear this theory. Any source?
    My opinion is that they came from Pashtunistan. There are even some toponymus that suggest this region as the original homeland of the Serbs.
    17 Dec.
    Paget to the Council.
    Now the Council's letters seem to imply (words quoted) that the King will keep no strangers save the Albanoys.
    Cales, 17 Dec. 1545. Signed.
    O me zhabat në moçale, o me zhgabat lart në male!
    -Petro Nini Luarasi-

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    Quote Originally Posted by LABERIA View Post
    First time i hear this theory. Any source?
    My opinion is that they came from Pashtunistan. There are even some toponymus that suggest this region as the original homeland of the Serbs.
    Serbs have nothing to do with Pashtuns. Genetically, linguistically neihther in any other sense Sebs are not related with Pashtuns.

    Deal with it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Crya View Post
    Good day everyone, I've been reading lately most of the posts related to I2a haplogroups and i have noticed that a lot of peoples are posting their theories based on weak wikipedia knowledge . Moreover, I am surprised that theory of the great slaves migration to Balkan is still used (very often here) even though it is proven to be wrong. Some of the countries already removed this theory from their curriculum such as Italy, Spain, Netherlands following the modern science and disregarding theories without proof. Yet Serbs and Croats are still referring to falls history made by Austro-Hungerians in 2nd half of 19th century with one purpose: to colonize Balkan, providing others the chance to steal their heritage, and i am not talking only about common people but historians as well. At least it is proven that there was no "great migration" but more likely the opposite. I've seen so many bickering between Serbs and Croats about the origin, neglecting the fact that the Illyrians, our ancestors, were settled in western Balkan long time before so-called the great migration. If someone want to make some conclusion about the origin, it is not easy, and all the DNA data needs to be read in conjunction with the true history facts in order to make clear picture. Wikipedia is unreliable so i strongly recommend not to be used. I've seen many times guys taking some sentences from the books which they have never read completely out of the context. This is the correct way to confuse your self and post complete nonsense.
    You have genetics and all you say prove with genetics, till then you talk fairy tales.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bachus View Post
    Serbs have nothing to do with Pashtuns. Genetically, linguistically neihther in any other sense Sebs are not related with Pashtuns.

    Deal with it.
    In Afghanistan and Pakistan there is a tribal group of Pashtuns called Sarbans / Sarbani. Their name is similar to the name of Caucasian tribe named Sarban (Sarbani), which some researchers connected to Serbs.[6]
    If you don't agree with this theory, you have to offer an alternative.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LABERIA View Post
    If you don't agree with this theory, you have to offer an alternative.
    I dont't agree for sure, because Pastuns have 55% R1a-Z93 and among Serbs R1a-Z93 does not exist, not a single Serb with R1a-Z93 from the around 3500 tested Serbs.

    Serbian R1a are Z280 (around 2/3) and M458 (around 1/3) - both are Slavic, other branches of R1a such as Scandinavian Z284 or "Aryan" Z93 does not exist among Serbs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bachus View Post
    I dont't agree for sure, because Pastuns have 55% R1a-Z93 and among Serbs R1a-Z93 does not exist, not a single Serb with R1a-Z93 from the around 3500 tested Serbs.

    Serbian R1a are Z280 (around 2/3) and M458 (around 1/3) - both are Slavic, other branches of R1a such as Scandinavian Z284 or "Aryan" Z93 does not exist among Serbs.
    I didn't said that Serbs are Pashtuns. I said that there is an theory, among many others, that indicates as a possible original homeland of the Serbs, the region of Pashtunistan.
    How much are related Serbs with Pashtuns in terms of language, genetics, etc, this is an issue that probably in the future scholars maybe will explain it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LABERIA View Post
    I didn't said that Serbs are Pashtuns. I said that there is an theory, among many others, that indicates as a possible original homeland of the Serbs, the region of Pashtunistan.
    How much are related Serbs with Pashtuns in terms of language, genetics, etc, this is an issue that probably in the future scholars maybe will explain it.
    Serbs and Pashtuns are not related genetically.

    Ancestors of Pashtuns were Scythians (R1a-Z93) and they came to Afghanistan as invaders from southern Russia. When they came to central Asia, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iran and India as invaders they mixed with mongoloids, Dravidians and Semitic people, because of that modern holders of R1a-Z93 are not white people (except few Iranian and Pashtuns), ancient holders of R1a-Z93 (Scythians/Aryans) were 100% white.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bachus View Post
    Serbs and Pashtuns are genetically unrelated.

    Ancestors of Pashtuns were Scythians (R1a-Z93) and they came to Afghanistan as invaders from southern Russia. When they came to central Asia, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iran and India as invaders they mixed with mongoloids, Dravidians and Semitic people, because of that modern holders of R1a-Z93 are not white people (except few Iranian and Pashtuns), ancient holders of R1a-Z93 (Scythians/Aryans) were 100% white.
    And according to you, which place could be the best candidate as the original homeland of the Serbs?

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    Huh, what makes you jump into conclusion?

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    Sorry for not quoting, this is related to "Novi Pazar is that you"

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