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Thread: Knez Dervan's Serbia and the Ethnogenisis of Balkan Serbs

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Stop posting this nonsense. We now have dna from the Balkans, both ancient and modern. People from the Balkans are no longer like the people who lived there before the Slavic invasions.

    Please read all three of the following papers carefully:

    Iain Mathiesen et al 2015:https://www.biorxiv.org/content/early/2017/05/30/135616

    Balkan Genetics:
    http://journals.plos.org/plosbiology...l.pbio.1001555

    It was discussed here:
    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...eway-to-Europe

    The Geography of Recent Ancestry across Europe: Ralph and Coop et al-based on IBD analysis
    http://journals.plos.org/plosbiology...l.pbio.1001555

    From the last paper based on IBD or actual inherited links:


    That didn't come from 2-3% of the population.

    It's beyond time to enter the modern era.
    Thanks for the info. As I said before I have only scratched the surface of these researches and I joined forum to learn and find out more. Now that I have read it I agree with the findings and can deal with it. I have read a lot of history and as it is now supplemented with DNA research data I will try to contribute with some more serious thoughts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hrvat22 View Post
    I askeed, quote


    Give me historical record from where Serbs coming to Roman Dalmatia



    Quote me genetic evidence for this and historical record since the first time I hear that I2a comes from western Czechia.


    Please answer otherwise my claim is true.

    Regarding

    types that coming from Greece, Albania, Bulgaria, Macedonia in period of 500 years to Croatia¸are Vlachs origin (I2-CTS10228)


    Originally I2-CTS10228 with mutation

    https://yfull.com/tree/I-S17250/

    is White Croatian origin.


    Wich types of I2-CTS10228 coming to Croatia with Vlach we'll see in the future.





    There are branches of I2-CTS10228 in Ukraine, Belarus, Russia, Croatia, Slovenia, Macedonia, Romania etc..we follow specific branches and not all I2-CTS10228.


    https://yfull.com/tree/I-CTS10228/


    Do you see how many branches there are behind I-CTS10228, not all are from Belarus.


    What does this have to do with source of same in southern Poland.





    All types I2a in the Balkans are associated with Vlachs, all types E1b in the Balkans are associated with Vlachs, all types J2a in the Balkans are associated with Vlachs, all types R1a in the Balkans are associated with Vlachs and all types R1b in the Balkans are associated with Vlachs, but each haplotype and types has its origin and path of migration.


    History of most Vlachs in Croatia is around 500 years,


    When in a couple of years are establish which haplotipes and which branches of same coming to Croatia at that time then we will know exactly which mutation is Vlach origin. Which is source and original origin of that haplotype is another matter.


    You have to know that Vlach have mixed genetics, they have aboriginal Balkans genetic and genetic of newly arrived Croats and Slavs.
    I2-Din have nothing to do wich Vlachs.

    Romanians have 28% I2a-Din thanks to strong Slavic influence, real Vlach haplogroups are R1b, E-V13 and J2b2, these 3 haplogroups among Aromanians together are around 65%.

    I2a-Din among Aromanians is Slavic influence, Aromanians on average have 17% I2a-Din.

    Aromanians are purest Vlach than Romanians, because they have less Slavic influence, Romanians are heavy Slavic infected they have 46% Slavic Y DNA (I2a-Din+R1a).

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    Quote Originally Posted by hrvat22 View Post
    I askeed, quoteGive me historical record from where Serbs coming to Roman DalmatiaQuote me genetic evidence for this and historical record since the first time I hear that I2a comes from western Czechia.Please answer otherwise my claim is true.Regarding types that coming from Greece, Albania, Bulgaria, Macedonia in period of 500 years to Croatia¸are Vlachs origin (I2-CTS10228)Originally I2-CTS10228 with mutation https://yfull.com/tree/I-S17250/ is White Croatian origin.Wich types of I2-CTS10228 coming to Croatia with Vlach we'll see in the future.There are branches of I2-CTS10228 in Ukraine, Belarus, Russia, Croatia, Slovenia, Macedonia, Romania etc..we follow specific branches and not all I2-CTS10228. https://yfull.com/tree/I-CTS10228/Do you see how many branches there are behind I-CTS10228, not all are from Belarus.What does this have to do with source of same in southern Poland.All types I2a in the Balkans are associated with Vlachs, all types E1b in the Balkans are associated with Vlachs, all types J2a in the Balkans are associated with Vlachs, all types R1a in the Balkans are associated with Vlachs and all types R1b in the Balkans are associated with Vlachs, but each haplotype and types has its origin and path of migration.History of most Vlachs in Croatia is around 500 years, When in a couple of years are establish which haplotipes and which branches of same coming to Croatia at that time then we will know exactly which mutation is Vlach origin. Which is source and original origin of that haplotype is another matter.You have to know that Vlach have mixed genetics, they have aboriginal Balkans genetic and genetic of newly arrived Croats and Slavs.
    Is it possible that Serbs and Croats that are coming under the I2-CTS10228 and having the same origin could have simply been Serbs and Croats, two different tribes of the same people? When I say Serbs and Croats I am talking about people not territory. Maybe todays Serbia is mixed with the people of different haplogroups which I will not discuss until I find out more, but lack of evidence of Serbian territorial name near by the White Croatia in Poland before migration should not necessarily mean that Serbia didn't existed. On contrary, it has been confirmed later by DIA. I must note that according to DIA in 7th century Serbs were given territory near the Croats which coincides with todays territory of South Dalmatia, Monte Negro, part of Bosnia and South-West Serbia. Serbia got expanded in middle age to todays Serbian territory and far more, taking other people under their state, same as, according to Priest of Doklea Red Croatia existed in Monte Negro. These are just territories. Now what we are arguing here is the name. Croatians are saying I2-CTS10228 are all Croatians. Serbians are saying these are all Serbians. Perhaps when we find out that above mentioned is the truth and face it the tensions between our two countries will disappear and we might start living and helping each others as we did in the past.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bachus View Post
    I2-Din have nothing to do wich Vlachs.

    Romanians have 28% I2a-Din thanks to strong Slavic influence, real Vlach haplogroups are R1b, E-V13 and J2b2, these 3 haplogroups among Aromanians together are around 65%.

    I2a-Din among Aromanians is Slavic influence, Aromanians on average have 17% I2a-Din.

    Aromanians are purest Vlach than Romanians, because they have less Slavic influence, Romanians are heavy Slavic infected they have 46% Slavic Y DNA (I2a-Din+R1a).
    I2-Din have nothing to do wich Vlachs.
    But certain branches of I2-Din do have, independently of its original origin.

    If Ante Antic has I2-Din with a 400-year old Greek mutation and comes to Croatia with Vlach name(written in a historical record), this mutation age of 400 years is Vlach origin, same branch with mutation a 1000 years old can be of Greek origin, same branch with mutation a 1600-year old can be White Croatian origin.

    We have keep track historical records and genetics and then make a conclusion, we must not make conclusions only on the basis one haplotype or mutation which is old 2000 years.

    In two thousand years there are about 20 mutations, we still need around 15 mutations roughly in each branch to bring final conclusion for https://yfull.com/tree/I-CTS10228/



    https://yfull.com/tree/I-PH908/ subclade is about 2,000 years old, behind I-PH908 we have 3 or 4 branches(it does not matter), this means that we need 20 mutations or subclades in each branch for some sort of conclusion.


    Only thing we know for now is that subclade https://yfull.com/tree/I-S17250/ originated in White Croatia, this can be changed in the future, that's for now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hrvat22 View Post
    But certain branches of I2-Din do have, independently of its original origin.

    If Ante Antic has I2-Din with a 400-year old Greek mutation and comes to Croatia with Vlach name, this mutation age of 400 years is Vlach origin, same branch and mutation of 1000 years old can be of Greek origin, same branch with mutation a 1600-year old can be White Croatian origin.

    We have keep track historical records and genetics and then make a conclusion, we must not make conclusions only on the basis one haplotype or mutation which is old 2000 years.

    In two thousand years there are about 20 mutations, we still need around 15 mutations roughly in each branch to bring final conclusion for https://yfull.com/tree/I-CTS10228/



    https://yfull.com/tree/I-PH908/ subclade is about 2,000 years old, behind I-PH908 we have 3 or 4 branches(it does not matter), this means that we need 20 mutations or subclades in each branch for some sort of conclusion.


    Only thing we know for now is that subclade https://yfull.com/tree/I-S17250/ originated in White Croatia, this can be changed in the future, that's for now.

    Vlach means speaker of vulgar Latin in the Balkans and central/east Europe nothing else.

    Serbs which settled in western Bosnia, Lika, Kordun and Banija in 16th and 17th century were not Latin speakers so they can't be Vlachs, deal with it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bachus View Post
    Vlach means speaker of vulgar Latin in the Balkans and central/east Europe nothing else.

    Serbs which settled in western Bosnia, Lika, Kordun and Banija in 16th and 17th century were not Latin speakers so they can't be Vlachs, deal with it.
    I already told you, it seems that you not understand that language, dance, last name, piano, letter, religion, nationality, flag has nothing to do with the origin of man.

    Serbs which settled in western Bosnia, Lika, Kordun and Banija in 16th and 17th century were not Latin speakers so they can't be Vlachs
    Show me historical records of settling Serbs to western Bosnia, Lika, Kordun and Banija, as far as I know, there is no historical record that says that to quoted area comes Serbs.

    This was confirmed by genetics as well since that in Serbians from Croatia dominate Dinarik-N types and they supposedly come from area where dominate Dinaric-S types(eastern Herzegovina, southern Serbia). This shows that connection between Croatian Serbs and Serbs from Serbia is not exist.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hrvat22 View Post
    I already told you, it seems that you not understand that language, dance, last name, piano, letter, religion, nationality, flag has nothing to do with the origin of man.



    Show me historical records of settling Serbs to western Bosnia, Lika, Kordun and Banija, as far as I know, there is no historical record that says that to quoted area comes Serbs.

    This was confirmed by genetics as well since that in Serbians from Croatia dominate Dinarik-N types and they supposedly come from area where dominate Dinaric-S types(eastern Herzegovina, southern Serbia). This shows that connection between Croatian Serbs and Serbs from Serbia is not exist.
    AGAIN: VLACHS = LATIN SPEAKERS IN THE BALKANS AND CENTRAL/EAST EUROPE !!!

    If somebody want to be Vlach he must to speak vulgar Latin language, if somebody don't speak vulgar Latin he is not Vlach.
    Similar as Jew, if some Jew convert to other religion he is not Jew, because Jew is man which belong to Judaism.

    Sorry, but Serbs from western Bosnia, Lika, Kordun, Banija and northern Dalmatia are mostly Dinaric-S, they are around 60% Dinaric-S and 40% Dinaric-N.

    You using outdated informations, Serbs from these areas was pred. Dinaric-N at the small sample few years ago, but now at the larger sample they are mostly Dinaric-S, even at the smaller sample they were not 100% Dinaric-N as you think they were around 60% Dinaric-N.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bachus View Post
    AGAIN: VLACHS = LATIN SPEAKERS IN THE BALKANS AND CENTRAL/EAST EUROPE !!!

    If somebody want to be Vlach he must to speak vulgar Latin language, if somebody don't speak vulgar Latin he is not Vlach.
    Similar as Jew, if some Jew convert to other religion he is not Jew, because Jew is man which belong to Judaism.

    Sorry, but Serbs from western Bosnia, Lika, Kordun, Banija and northern Dalmatia are mostly Dinaric-S, they are around 60% Dinaric-S and 40% Dinaric-N.

    You using outdated informations, Serbs from these areas was pred. Dinaric-N at the small sample few years ago, but now at the larger sample they are mostly Dinaric-S, even at the smaller sample they were not 100% Dinaric-N as you think they were around 60% Dinaric-N.
    Except that they were not Serbs by origin but became ones due to the efforts of Serbian Church in building their Serbian identity.

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    AGAIN: VLACHS = LATIN SPEAKERS IN THE BALKANS AND CENTRAL/EAST EUROPE !!!
    Child of Croats in Germany, second generation they do not know what is Croatian language. Language, Latin, Serbian, Chinese, religion, nationality, etc.. have nothing to do with origin of people.

    LATIN SPEAKERS
    You can not determine someone's origin on the basis Latin language.

    If somebody want to be Vlach he must to speak vulgar Latin language,
    Are you a child?, language has no connection with origin of people including Vlach, I2a that Croatians have is not Indo-European origin although Croatians speak Indo-European language, do you get it.

    Sorry, but Serbs from western Bosnia, Lika, Kordun, Banija and northern Dalmatia are mostly Dinaric-S, they are around 60% Dinaric-S and 40% Dinaric-N.
    Serbian genetic portal Poreklo, Serbs from Croatia

    I2a-Dinaric = 22.95%, I2-PH908 = 3.93%

    This is for Lika. Maybe there in Serbs are Croatian Dinaric-S types, so we do not know from where these Dinaric types come to Croatia or they Croatian origin.

    I2-PH908 is about 2,000 years old, how do you know that he came from Eastern Herzegovina and Southern Serbia to Croatia. This we know for five years. I can only make a conclusion on basis of the branch Dinaric-S and Dinaric-N, if in eastern Herzegovina and southern Serbia dominate Dinaric-S then it should be dominate and in Lika etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hrvat22 View Post
    Child of Croats in Germany, second generation they do not know what is Croatian language. Language, Latin, Serbian, Chinese, religion, nationality, etc.. have nothing to do with origin of people.

    You can not determine someone's origin on the basis Latin language.



    Are you a child?, language has no connection with origin of people including Vlach, I2a that Croatians have is not Indo-European origin although Croatians speak Indo-European language, do you get it.



    Serbian genetic portal Poreklo, Serbs from Croatia

    I2a-Dinaric = 22.95%, I2-PH908 = 3.93%

    This is for Lika. Maybe there in Serbs are Croatian Dinaric-S types, so we do not know from where these Dinaric types come to Croatia or they Croatian origin.

    I2-PH908 is about 2,000 years old, how do you know that he came from Eastern Herzegovina and Southern Serbia to Croatia. This we know for five years. I can only make a conclusion on basis of the branch Dinaric-S and Dinaric-N, if in eastern Herzegovina and southern Serbia dominate Dinaric-S then it should be dominate and in Lika etc.
    Serbs from Dalmatia (I2a-Din)

    I2a-Dinaric-south
    Đurić (Plavno/Knin)
    Bubonja (Golubić/Knin)
    Lukić (Tribanj/Starigrad)
    Vekić (Ervenik)
    Dokić (Biskupija/Knin)
    Rakić (Varivode/Kistanje)
    Poljak (Tribanj/Starigrad)
    Dobrić (Benkovac)
    Ljubičić (Obrovac)
    Kubat (Žegar/Obrovac)
    Babac (Tribanj/Starigrad)
    Njegić (Gračac/Skradin)
    Krnjaja (Žegar/Obrovac)

    I2a-Dinaric-north
    Amanović (Vrbnik/Knin)
    Berber (Bilišane/Obrovac)
    Barišić (Bribir/Skradin)
    Vujasinović (Ivoševci/Kistanje)
    Gagić (Zelengrad/Obrovac)
    Vučković (Polača/Knin)
    Mirilo (Žegar/Obrovac)


    I2a-Din-south (I2-PH908) - 65%

    I2a-Din-north (I2-CTS10220) - ​35%


    Deal with it.
    Last edited by Bachus; 10-11-17 at 20:45.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bachus View Post
    Serbs from Dalmatia (I2a-Din)

    I2a-Dinaric-south
    Đurić (Plavno/Knin)
    Bubonja (Golubić/Knin)
    Lukić (Tribanj/Starigrad)
    Vekić (Ervenik)
    Dokić (Biskupija/Knin)
    Rakić (Varivode/Kistzanje)
    Poljak (Tribanj/Starigrad)
    Dobrić (Benkovac)
    Ljubičić (Obrovac)
    Kubat (Žegar/Obrovac)
    Babac (Tribanj/Starigrad)
    Njegić (Gračac/Skradin)
    Krnjaja (Žegar/Obrovac)

    I2a-Dinaric-north
    Amanović (Vrbnik/Knin)
    Berber (Bilišane/Obrovac)
    Barišić (Bribir/Skradin)
    Vujasinović (Ivoševci/Kistanje)
    Gagić (Zelengrad/Obrovac)
    Vučković (Polača/Knin)
    Mirilo (Žegar/Obrovac)


    I2a-Din-south (I2-PH908) - 65%

    I2a-Din-north (I2-CTS10220) - ​35%


    Deal with it.
    Serbs from Lika I2a-Dinaric= 22.95%, I2-PH908 = 3.93%
    Do you realize that there is no historical records which prove arrival of Serbs to Dalmatia, Lika, Kordun, Banija. They are Vlach and possibly Croatian origin that have nothing to do with Serbs.

    Further, as I have previously said, Serbs in the 7th century do not come to Roman Dalmatia.

    I2a-Din-south (I2-PH908) - 65%

    I2a-Din-north (I2-CTS10220) - ​35%
    I2a with mutation https://yfull.com/tree/I-S17250/ comes exclusively with Croatians to Dalmatia and Balkans.

    Since you did not provided evidence
    Give me historical record from where Serbs coming to Roman Dalmatia
    Quote me genetic evidence for this and historical record since the first time I hear that I2a comes from western Czechia.
    with genetic and historical data, my quote
    Today's Serbs are genetic mixture of Croats, Albanians and Vlachs.
    is true and only logically possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Crya View Post
    I am unable to provide link since I need to have more then 10 posts which i don’t. Anyway it is Maveo Orbini “Il regno de gli Slavi”
    Kraljevstvo Slavena, Mavro Orbini (Il Regno de gli Slavi, 1601)
    by Mavro Orbini, 1601.

    Publication date 1999
    Topics Orbini, Iliri su Slaveni/Sloveni, Illyrians are Slavs


    Orbini basically states that the origins of croats and slovenians are illyrian and this is also what Gimbatus states in her bronze age book . The illyrians originate near the volga, move to become the lusatians and then settle in the eastern alps ( noricum, modern slovenia , istria and northern croatia ) circa around 1500BC

    I have found a similar scenario , and continution of this scenario for illyrians in these places is confirmed by Roman historians Livy and Strabo
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    How can it be, if you present your hypotheses as real history?
    I agree all these affirmations seem lacking caution in their formulations - but let's allow him to take the risk of ridicule if he goes too far, we 'll judge with more data, later, if we have... we laready saw worst on this forum, so...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bachus View Post
    I2-Din have nothing to do wich Vlachs.

    Romanians have 28% I2a-Din thanks to strong Slavic influence, real Vlach haplogroups are R1b, E-V13 and J2b2, these 3 haplogroups among Aromanians together are around 65%.

    I2a-Din among Aromanians is Slavic influence, Aromanians on average have 17% I2a-Din.

    Aromanians are purest Vlach than Romanians, because they have less Slavic influence, Romanians are heavy Slavic infected they have 46% Slavic Y DNA (I2a-Din+R1a).
    Huh? It doesn't make much sense to me...
    Aromanians through out history were a minority among Slavic majority AND Romanians were a majority among other minorities (including Slavic) and they have more Slavic DNA than Aromanians?
    You make this assumption because Romanians have more I2a-DIN than Aromanians AND you attribute that I2a-DIN is pure Slavic... this is where I think you're wrong.

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    Glup! Gargle! I posted before to read the remnant of this interesting thread, spite a bit animated. Sorry for my out of date posts; but I'll read all the posts, maybe can I find something of worth.
    just a remark for someones: "historical report" is a vague term and not synonymous of modern scientific proof...

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    Quote Originally Posted by hrvat22 View Post
    Do you realize that there is no historical records which prove arrival of Serbs to Dalmatia, Lika, Kordun, Banija. They are Vlach and possibly Croatian origin that have nothing to do with Serbs.

    Further, as I have previously said, Serbs in the 7th century do not come to Roman Dalmatia.



    I2a with mutation https://yfull.com/tree/I-S17250/ comes exclusively with Croatians to Dalmatia and Balkans.

    Since you did not provided evidence with genetic and historical data, my quote is true and only logically possible.
    Among Serbs from Dalmatia Dinaric-south is 65% and Dinaric-north is 35%, so do you still think that majority of them came from central and southern Balkans?

    Even Serbs from Krajina which are Dinaric-north are mostly Herzegovian origin. For example Mirilo from Žegar in Bukovica originated from Mirilović clan from eastern Herzegovina, Mirilović clan is mentioned in documents from 14th century in Herzegovina and they have nothing to do with southern Balkans.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bachus View Post
    Among Serbs from Dalmatia Dinaric-south is 65% and Dinaric-north is 35%, so do you still think that majority of them came from central and southern Balkans?

    Even Serbs from Krajina which are Dinaric-north are mostly Herzegovian origin. For example Mirilo from Žegar in Bukovica originated from Mirilović clan from eastern Herzegovina, Mirilović clan is mentioned in documents from 14th century in Herzegovina and they have nothing to do with southern Balkans.
    Why haven't you said that they were Catholics in 14th century. As Catholics they could not have been Serbs niether they were mentioned as such. Sources from Dubrovnik called them Vlachs as it is a common way in Dalmatia to call the shepherds from the hinterland. They became Serbs long after they accepted Serbian Orthodoxy. That was a general rule of Serbian ehnogenesis.

    Under that circumstances, it is rediculous to use their genetics to prove Serbdom. Change of one's religion does not effect his Y-DNA chromosome.

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    Bachus


    Among Serbs from Dalmatia Dinaric-south is 65% and Dinaric-north is 35%, so do you still think that majority of them came from central and southern Balkans?


    Among Serbs from Lika Dinaric-south PH908 is 3.93% do you still think that majority of them came from eastern Herzegovina and southern Serbia?

    Even Serbs from Krajina which are Dinaric-north are mostly Herzegovian origin. Mirilović clan is mentioned in documents from 14th century in Herzegovina and they have nothing to do with southern Balkans.
    Prove with genetics until then you talk fairy tales.

    For example Mirilo from Žegar in Bukovica originated from Mirilović clan from eastern Herzegovina,
    There is no historical record about arrival of Serbs to northwest Dalmatia, do you understand English?



    I2a2 'Dinaric' ..L621>CTS10228>S20602/YP196>Z17855>PH3414 (I-PH3414)
    Name: Not Disclosed
    Kit Number: 327269
    Earliest Known Ancestor: N/A
    Marker Location: Žegar, Dalmacija
    Last established subclade is Z17855 old about 2 thousand years, on basis of which subclade you conclude that Mirilović clan from Žegar comes from Herzegovina.

    I'm telling you that for this conclusion needs be established 20 subclades or circa 5,6 years work in DNA laboratory. You probably have a crystal ball?

    Only thing we know for now is that https://yfull.com/tree/I-S17250/ comes from White Croatia to Balkans exclusively with Croats and that all carriers of subclade I-S17250 are White Croatian origin. Genetics did not confirm that Serbs coming to Balkan.

    Serbs with E1b types have Albanian origins (20% Bosnian Serbs) and they are coming from direction of Albania and Kosovo to Croatia and Bosnia with Vlach name, since E1b is in epicenter in Albanians we can assume this without waiting for 5 years.

    All point to the fact that today's Serbs are genetic mix of Croats, Albanians and Vlach. Since you do not dispute it at all, it is now evident and clear.

    And yes, about 10% of Croatians with E1b types are Vlach-Albanian origin by male line.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hrvat22 View Post




    Among Serbs from Lika Dinaric-south PH908 is 3.93% do you still think that majority of them came from eastern Herzegovina and southern Serbia?



    Prove with genetics until then you talk fairy tales.



    There is no historical record about arrival of Serbs to northwest Dalmatia, do you understand English?





    Last established subclade is Z17855 old about 2 thousand years, on basis of which subclade you conclude that Mirilović clan from Žegar comes from Herzegovina.

    I'm telling you that for this conclusion needs be established 20 subclades or circa 5,6 years work in DNA laboratory. You probably have a crystal ball?

    Only thing we know for now is that https://yfull.com/tree/I-S17250/ comes from White Croatia to Balkans exclusively with Croats and that all carriers of subclade I-S17250 are White Croatian origin. Genetics did not confirm that Serbs coming to Balkan.

    Serbs with E1b types have Albanian origins (20% Bosnian Serbs) and they are coming from direction of Albania and Kosovo to Croatia and Bosnia with Vlach name, since E1b is in epicenter in Albanians we can assume this without waiting for 5 years.

    All point to the fact that today's Serbs are genetic mix of Croats, Albanians and Vlach. Since you do not dispute it at all, it is now evident and clear.

    And yes, about 10% of Croatians with E1b types are Vlach-Albanian origin by male line.
    Bosnian Serbs don't have 20% E1b, Serbs from Bosnia have 13% E1b and mainly is not conected with Albanian and Vlachs types of E1b.

    Serbs from Lika I2a-Dinaric

    I2a-Dinaric-north
    Glumac (Vrelo/Korenica)
    Damjanović (Srb)
    Dimić (Pribudić/Gračac)
    Eror (Bunić/Udbina)
    Kljajić (Korenica)
    Novaković (Velika Popina/Gračac)
    Šijan (Kupirovo/Gračac)
    Đukić (Kurjak/Udbina)
    Budimir (Prljevo/Gračac)
    Lalić (Ponikve/Ogulin)

    I2a-Dinaric-south
    Graovac (Vrebac/Gospić)
    Vukobratović (Gornja Ploča/Lovinac)
    Dukić (Deringaj/Gračac)
    Zorić (Srb)
    Janjatović (Latin/Plaški)
    Jovanić (Srb)
    Tesla (Raduč/Lovinac)
    Opačić (Donji Lapac)
    Petrović (Srb)
    Paskaš (Oraovac/Donji Lapac)


    I2a-Dinaric-north - ​50%

    I2a-Dinaric-south - 50%


    Deal with it

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bachus View Post
    Bosnian Serbs don't have 20% E1b, Serbs from Bosnia have 13% E1b and mainly is not conected with Albanian and Vlachs types of E1b.

    Serbs from Lika I2a-Dinaric

    I2a-Dinaric-north
    Glumac (Vrelo/Korenica)
    Damjanović (Srb)
    Dimić (Pribudić/Gračac)
    Eror (Bunić/Udbina)
    Kljajić (Korenica)
    Novaković (Velika Popina/Gračac)
    Šijan (Kupirovo/Gračac)
    Đukić (Kurjak/Udbina)
    Budimir (Prljevo/Gračac)
    Lalić (Ponikve/Ogulin)

    I2a-Dinaric-south
    Graovac (Vrebac/Gospić)
    Vukobratović (Gornja Ploča/Lovinac)
    Dukić (Deringaj/Gračac)
    Zorić (Srb)
    Janjatović (Latin/Plaški)
    Jovanić (Srb)
    Tesla (Raduč/Lovinac)
    Opačić (Donji Lapac)
    Petrović (Srb)
    Paskaš (Oraovac/Donji Lapac)


    I2a-Dinaric-north - ​50%

    I2a-Dinaric-south - 50%


    Deal with it
    In eastern Herzegovina and southern Serbia prevails subclade I2-PH908, if there is any movement from that area to Croatia proof is subclade I2-PH908.
    Although it has not been scientifically established Serbs from Croatian Lika have I2a-Dinaric = 22.95%, I2-PH908 = 3.93% (Serbian genetic portal Poreklo)

    https://www.poreklo.rs/forum/index.php?topic=1494.220

    The only scientific work for Bosnian Serbs says that they have 20% of E1b. Officially we only have to believe this scientific work.

    http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turk...GeneticsEn.htm






    Croats also have I2a Dinaric types with subclade https://yfull.com/tree/I-S17250/ in Dalmatia up to 60% and this is proof that Croats come from White Croatia to Roman Dalmatia.

    Genetics have proven that Croatians comes to Roman Dalmatia as only tribe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hrvat22 View Post
    In eastern Herzegovina and southern Serbia prevails subclade I2-PH908, if there is any movement from that area to Croatia proof is subclade I2-PH908.
    Although it has not been scientifically established Serbs from Croatian Lika have I2a-Dinaric = 22.95%, I2-PH908 = 3.93% (Serbian genetic portal Poreklo)

    https://www.poreklo.rs/forum/index.php?topic=1494.220

    The only scientific work for Bosnian Serbs says that they have 20% of E1b. Officially we only have to believe this scientific work.

    http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turk...GeneticsEn.htm






    Croats also have I2a Dinaric types with subclade https://yfull.com/tree/I-S17250/ in Dalmatia up to 60% and this is proof that Croats come from White Croatia to Roman Dalmatia.

    Genetics have proven that Croatians comes to Roman Dalmatia as only tribe.
    Ti si stvarno retardirana osoba, kakvo crkno poreklo tamo ima puno debila i trolova.

    To što oni pričaju nema veze sa mozgom, pogledaj ovde https://poreklo.rs traži u tabeli za I2a-Din south i north Ličane i napravi statistiku kao što sam ja uradio a ne da ponavljaš nebulozu o 3,93% kao pokvarena ploča.
    Pored imena i prezimena svakog testiranog piše slave i mesto porekla, znaćeš da napraviš statistiku ako si završio bar 4 razreda osnovne škole a ako nisi onda žalim slučaj.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bachus View Post
    Ti si stvarno retardirana osoba, kakvo crkno poreklo oni su gomila debila.

    To što oni pričaju nema veze sa mozgom, pogledaj ovde https://poreklo.rs traži u tabeli za I2a-Din south i north Ličane i napravi statistiku kao što sam ja uradio a ne da ponavljaš nebulozu o 3,93% kao pokvarena ploča.
    Pored imena svakog testiranog piše slave i mesto porekla, znaćeš da napraviš statistiku ako si završio bar 4 razreda osnovne škole a ako nisi onda žalim slučaj.
    Please do not insult me, you have a history records and genetics, use it to refute my claims. By insulting and humiliating me as a person you do not getting anything.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hrvat22 View Post
    Please do not insult me, you have a history records and genetics, use it to refute my claims. By insulting and humiliating me as a person you do not getting anything.
    I gave you a link with database, please make it statistic because your claims about 3,93% Dinaric-south among Lika Serbs is not true.

    You claims is based on outdated date made at small sample, and yes poreklo is full of ***** that is true.

    I'm not fighting for higher percentage of Dinaric-south among Serbs I only fighting for the truth.

    To be honest I would like that Serbs have more Dinaric-north, because Dinaric-north is older than Dinaric-south and also Dinaric-north is real Slavic haplogroup which can't be said for Dinaric-south, but facts are facts Serbs have 2/3 Dinaric-south and 1/3 Dinaric-north.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bachus View Post
    I gave you a link with database, please make it statistic because your claims about 3,93% Dinaric-south among Lika Serbs is not true.You claims is based on outdated date made at small sample, and yes poreklo is full of ***** that is true. I'm not fighting for higher percentage of Dinaric-south among Serbs I only fighting for the truth. To be honest I would like that Serbs have more Dinaric-north, because Dinaric-north is older than Dinaric-south and also Dinaric-north is real Slavic haplogroup which can't be said for Dinaric-south, but facts are facts Serbs have 2/3 Dinaric-south and 1/3 Dinaric-north.
    октобар 30, 2017,I2a-Dinaric = 22.95%, I2-PH908 = 3.93%...So, when it comes to Serb populations, typical haplogroups / sub-branches can be I2-CTS10228, R1a-M458, J2b-M205,..
    https://www.poreklo.rs/forum/index.php?topic=1494.220They each day look at the data for Lika, they best know statistics for Lika Serbs although it is not a scientifically based evidence.
    You claims is based on outdated date made at small sample, and yes poreklo is full of ***** that is true.
    I use Serbian genetic portal Poreklo only for statistical genetic data, I do not read their mythomania, but some of details they know best since they explore Serb genetic from Lika, Dalmata, Bosnia etc.


    Serbs from Bosnian Kraina (northwestern Bosnia)
    Укупан број тестираних износи 68Хаплогрупа I2a (21) - 30.9%I2a-PH908 - 16.2%I2a-CTS10228 - 10.3%I2a - 4.4%
    Хаплогрупа I2a (21) - 30.9%

    In Herzegovina is I2a to 70%, how much is percentage in eastern Herzegovina I do not know, but I'm telling you all the time that I2a-PH908 in Croatian Serbs it can also be of Croatian origin, do you understand English.

    Croats from Herzegovina and Dalmatia have up to 70% of I2a and most of it is PH908(which proves Croatian migration from White Croatia), maybe today's Serbs come from Croatian areas to Lika and later transferred to Orthodoxy and become Serbians, maybe today's Serbs from Lika etc. with Dinaric-S and N types are native Croats who never come from south Serbia etc with Vlach population.
    We do not have historical data on Serbian coming to Lika, Do you understand English.

    Subclades about whom we are talking about are old 2,000, 1,500 years etc., when they get to subclade age of 700, 500, 400, 200 years, then we will be able to bring concrete conclusion.
    For now we know that genetics only confirm arrival of Croats to Balkans(White Croatian subclade https://yfull.com/tree/I-S17250/), we also know that for now E1b, J2b and R1b types from southeast Balkans are mostly Albanian-Vlachs origin including some I2a Dinaric-N types and R1a types.

    When and from where Vlachs come to Croatia and Bosnia we will know for few years. For now based on subclades old 2000 or 1500 years we can not bring concrete conclusion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hrvat22 View Post
    https://www.poreklo.rs/forum/index.php?topic=1494.220They each day look at the data for Lika, they best know statistics for Lika Serbs although it is not a scientifically based evidence.

    I use Serbian genetic portal Poreklo only for statistical genetic data, I do not read their mythomania, but some of details they know best since they explore Serb genetic from Lika, Dalmata, Bosnia etc.


    Serbs from Bosnian Kraina (northwestern Bosnia)

    Хаплогрупа I2a (21) - 30.9%

    In Herzegovina is I2a to 70%, how much is percentage in eastern Herzegovina I do not know, but I'm telling you all the time that I2a-PH908 in Croatian Serbs it can also be of Croatian origin, do you understand English.

    Croats from Herzegovina and Dalmatia have up to 70% of I2a and most of it is PH908(which proves Croatian migration from White Croatia), maybe today's Serbs come from Croatian areas to Lika and later transferred to Orthodoxy and become Serbians, maybe today's Serbs from Lika etc. with Dinaric-S and N types are native Croats who never come from south Serbia etc with Vlach population.
    We do not have historical data on Serbian coming to Lika, Do you understand English.

    Subclades about whom we are talking about are old 2,000, 1,500 years etc., when they get to subclade age of 700, 500, 400, 200 years, then we will be able to bring concrete conclusion.
    For now we know that genetics only confirm arrival of Croats to Balkans(White Croatian subclade https://yfull.com/tree/I-S17250/), we also know that for now E1b, J2b and R1b types from southeast Balkans are mostly Albanian-Vlachs origin including some I2a Dinaric-N types and R1a types.

    When and from where Vlachs come to Croatia and Bosnia we will know for few years. For now based on subclades old 2000 or 1500 years we can not bring concrete conclusion.
    Croats from Herzegovina have 71% I2a thanks to genetic drift (bottleneck efect) without any doubt.

    Croats from Dalmatia have 50-55% I2a.

    Croats from Primorje-Gorski Kotar Country (Primorsko-Goranska Županija) have 21 I2a.

    Croats from nothwest Croatia have only aroun 15% I2a.

    You talking only about Croats from Herzegovina and Dalmatia because they have high percentage of I2a, but you don't mention Croats from western and northwestern Croatria which have less I2a than Serbs from any region.

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