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Thread: Knez Dervan's Serbia and the Ethnogenisis of Balkan Serbs

  1. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bachus View Post
    Croats from Herzegovina have 71% I2a thanks to genetic drift (bottleneck efect) without any doubt.

    Croats from Dalmatia have 50-55% I2a.

    Croats from Primorje-Gorski Kotar Country (Primorsko-Goranska Županija) have 21 I2a.

    Croats from nothwest Croatia have only aroun 15% I2a.

    You talking only about Croats from Herzegovina and Dalmatia because they have high percentage of I2a, but you don't mention Croats from western and northwestern Croatria which have less I2a than Serbs from any region.
    Srbia was repopulated from Herzegovina. They became Serbs later.

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    Ethnic group
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    Bachus
    Croats from nothwest Croatia have only aroun 15% I2a.
    They have 25%.
    Croats from Primorje-Gorski Kotar Country (Primorsko-Goranska Županija) have 21 I2a.
    Western Croatia with Istria, Primorje, Lika have about 40%.

    You talking only about Croats from Herzegovina and Dalmatia because they have high percentage of I2a, but you don't mention Croats from western and northwestern Croatria which have less I2a than Serbs from any region
    http://www.srpsko-nasledje.rs/sr-l/1...article-1.html

    Year 1804.....When we look at data of Šumadia (Central Serbia) population, we see that there are very few aboriginal people among them. In the Šumadia areas of Kačer, Gruža, Lepenica, Kragujevac, Jasenica, Smederevo, Podunavlje and Jasenica, Kosmaju and in the villages around Belgrade, the origin of the 8894 gender with 52,475 houses was examined. Of this number there are only 464 gender with 3603 aboriginal, and all other Šumadia population are settled and settlers have 7960 gender with 46,408 houses. Šumadia(central Serbia) are settled by settlers from almost all parts of today's kingdom, but they are mostly from dinaric areas, i.e. from Montenegro, Bosnia and Herzegovina, from Sjenica and New Pazar, Kolasin, Pešteri and Bihor, Dalmatia, Lika and other Dinaric regions.
    We do not know original genetics of Serbs from Serbia when they mostly came from Dinaric regions where I2a Dinaric prevails.


    That Serbia are not settled from Dinaric regions two hundred years ago, Serbs from Serbia would probably have 5% or 10% I2a.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wonomyro View Post
    Srbia was repopulated from Herzegovina. They became Serbs later.
    Around 3/4 of Serbs from modern Serbia (without Vojvodina) are originated from Herzegovina and Montenegro, thier ancestoes settled at teritory of modern Serbia in 18th and 19th century.
    Serbia was heavy depopulated in late 17th ans early 18th century because of Serbian migration to the north and northwest in Srem, Bačka, Banat, Slavonia, Hungary, Lika, Kordun and Banija.
    During the 18th and 19th century Serbs from Herzegovina and Montenegro were massively settled to territory of modern Serbia.

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    @ hrvat22

    Y DNA of Croats from Primorsko-Goranska Županija

    R1a - ​28,7%

    I2a-Din - ​21,8%

    R1b - 11,9%

    I1 - 9,9%

    E1b - 9,9%

    J2b - 5%

    G2 - 2%

    N1a - 2%

    I2-M223 - 2%

    T - 2%

    J2a - 2%

    L - 1%

    D1a - 1%

    I2a-L38 - 1%

    H - 1%

  5. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bachus View Post
    @ hrvat22

    Y DNA of Croats from Primorsko-Goranska Županija

    R1a - ​28,7%

    I2a-Din - ​21,8%

    R1b - 11,9%

    I1 - 9,9%

    E1b - 9,9%

    J2b - 5%

    G2 - 2%

    N1a - 2%

    I2-M223 - 2%

    T - 2%

    J2a - 2%

    L - 1%

    D1a - 1%

    I2a-L38 - 1%

    H - 1%
    Last scientific work for Croats from year 2012.

    http://www.draganprimorac.com/wp-con...ports-2012.pdf

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bachus View Post
    Around 3/4 of Serbs from modern Serbia (without Vojvodina) are originated from Herzegovina and Montenegro, thier ancestoes settled at teritory of modern Serbia in 18th and 19th century. Serbia was heavy depopulated in late 17th ans early 18th century because of Serbian migration to the north and northwest in Srem, Bačka, Banat, Slavonia, Hungary, Lika, Kordun and Banija. During the 18th and 19th century Serbs from Herzegovina and Montenegro were massively settled to territory of modern Serbia.
    I agree with the most of you said. That's the reason why present day Serbs have lot of I2a-Din. The reason why some parts of Croatia don't is that Croatia was not fully depopulated durring the Otoman invasion, so the immigrants from Dalmatia and Herzegovina never became majority in some areas. However, you are making a logical mistake by calling them all Serbs before they migrated to Serbia or became Serbian Orthodox. Those who migrated elswhere and who never become Othodox, those never called themselves Serbs.

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    Wonomyro
    Those who migrated elswhere and who never become Othodox, those never called themselves Serbs.
    Those Othodox who migrated to Croatia never called themselves Serbs(there is no historical record who mentions Serbs except one or two records but also with Vlachs), before hundred years ago they beginning called themselves as Serbs under influence of Serbian Orthodox Church.

    The reason why some parts of Croatia don't not have high percentage of I2a-Din is that Croatia was not fully depopulated durring the Otoman invasion,
    In northern Croatia I2a is about 25%, average for Serbia is 33%.

    We know that settlers from Dinaric areas bring I2a to Serbia, that these settlers do not exist, Serbs in Serbia would have 5 to 10% of I2a.

    However, this not change fact that I2a originally was White Croatian( https://yfull.com/tree/I-S17250/) origin in the Balkans.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bachus View Post
    Ti si stvarno retardirana osoba... znaćeš da napraviš statistiku ako si završio bar 4 razreda osnovne škole a ako nisi onda žalim slučaj.
    Translation to English "You are really a retarded peson... you will know to make statistics if you finished 4 classes of the elementary school, if you did not, then I am sorry for your case". Moderators, your move, again.

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    Its true that modern Serbs from Croatia are mostly of Vlach origin. But these are for sure not I2a samples, no matter South or North. I2a-cts10228 is of Slavic expansion regarding Balkans. Just as R1a is.

    When it come to Vlach haplogroups, best candidates are E-v13, R1b, J2b2 as Aromun study represented. And these would be mostly Romanized Illyrians and various natives. Furthermore there are more Vlach groups like J1, J2b1, E-M123, J2a, G2, G1, T, I1 and all who were completely Romanized therefore spoken Latin language or that arrived in Balkans from various parts of Roman empire or later Byzantine one.

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b Z2109
    MtDNA haplogroup
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bachus View Post
    Ti si stvarno retardirana osoba, kakvo crkno poreklo tamo ima puno debila i trolova.

    To što oni pričaju nema veze sa mozgom, pogledaj ovde https://poreklo.rs traži u tabeli za I2a-Din south i north Ličane i napravi statistiku kao što sam ja uradio a ne da ponavljaš nebulozu o 3,93% kao pokvarena ploča.
    Pored imena i prezimena svakog testiranog piše slave i mesto porekla, znaćeš da napraviš statistiku ako si završio bar 4 razreda osnovne škole a ako nisi onda žalim slučaj.
    All members of Eupedia are required to post in English. You also got infraction for demining other member of Eupedia.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mobileacc200 View Post
    Its true that modern Serbs from Croatia are mostly of Vlach origin. But these are for sure not I2a samples, no matter South or North. I2a-cts10228 is of Slavic expansion regarding Balkans. Just as R1a is.

    When it come to Vlach haplogroups, best candidates are E-v13, R1b, J2b2 as Aromun study represented. And these would be mostly Romanized Illyrians and various natives. Furthermore there are more Vlach groups like J1, J2b1, E-M123, J2a, G2, G1, T, I1 and all who were completely Romanized therefore spoken Latin language or that arrived in Balkans from various parts of Roman empire or later Byzantine one.

    what?

    can you give the source of the study of Vlach?
    cause there are Vlachs with Slavic ancestry,
    like the Antes
    ΟΘΕΝ ΑΙΔΩΣ OY EINAI
    ΑΤΗ ΛΑΜΒΑΝΕΙΝ ΑΥΤΟΙΣ
    ΥΒΡΙΣ ΓΕΝΝΑΤΑΙ
    ΝΕΜΕΣΙΣ ΚΑΙ ΤΙΣΗ ΑΚΟΛΟΥΘΟΥΣΙ ΔΕ

    When there is no shame
    Divine blindness conquers them
    Hybris (abuse, opprombium) is born
    Nemesis and punishment follows.

    Εχε υπομονη Ηρωα
    Η τιμωρια δεν αργει.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mobileacc200 View Post
    Its true that modern Serbs from Croatia are mostly of Vlach origin. But these are for sure not I2a samples, no matter South or North. I2a-cts10228 is of Slavic expansion regarding Balkans. Just as R1a is.

    When it come to Vlach haplogroups, best candidates are E-v13, R1b, J2b2 as Aromun study represented. And these would be mostly Romanized Illyrians and various natives. Furthermore there are more Vlach groups like J1, J2b1, E-M123, J2a, G2, G1, T, I1 and all who were completely Romanized therefore spoken Latin language or that arrived in Balkans from various parts of Roman empire or later Byzantine one.
    The strongest haplogroups among Serbs from Croatia are I2a-Din and R1a, so majority of them are not Vlach origin, Vlach haplogroups are R1b, J2b2 and E-V13.

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    I2*/I2a

    Bosnia-Herzegovina
    - Croats ... 71.0%
    - Bosniaks ... 53.5%
    - Serbs ... 32.5%
    Croatia ... 37.0%
    Serbia ... 34.0%
    Slovenia ... 20.5%

    ---------------------
    Vlachs/Aromuns

    J2 - 24.5%
    R1b - 21.5%
    I - 20.50%
    E - 16.5%
    R1a - 10.0%

    https://www.eupedia.com/europe/europ...logroups.shtml

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    Y DNA of Serbs from Serbia at the day May 5 , 2017

    I2a-Din - ​35%

    R1a - 19%

    E1b - 14%

    I1 - 10%

    J2 - 7%

    R1b - 5%

    G2a - 3%

    N- 2%

    J1 - 2%

    I2b - 1%

    Q -1%

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bachus View Post
    The strongest haplogroups among Serbs from Croatia are I2a-Din and R1a, so majority of them are not Vlach origin, Vlach haplogroups are R1b, J2b2 and E-V13.
    I2a-Din and R1a with subclades from Greece, Macedonia, Albania, Bulgaria, Romania age of 500, 400, 300 etc.. years are and Vlach origin.

    When Vlachs come to Croatia they have all those haplogroups.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aroman...enetic_studies

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bachus View Post
    Y DNA of Serbs from Serbia at the day May 5 , 2017

    I2a-Din - ​35%

    R1a - 19%

    E1b - 14%

    I1 - 10%

    J2 - 7%

    R1b - 5%

    G2a - 3%

    N- 2%

    J1 - 2%

    I2b - 1%

    Q -1%


    Link to scientific work?

    Without scientific work these results are not relevant.

    Serb from Bosnia and Herzegovina I2a 30%

    Serbians, Reguiero et al. (2012)I2a 29,1%


    Serbs, Aleksandrovac https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleksandrovac (
    Todorović et al. (2014)
    I2a 35%

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_studies_on_Serbs

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wonomyro View Post
    I2*/I2a

    Bosnia-Herzegovina
    - Croats ... 71.0%
    - Bosniaks ... 53.5%
    - Serbs ... 32.5%
    Croatia ... 37.0%
    Serbia ... 34.0%
    Slovenia ... 20.5%

    ---------------------
    Vlachs/Aromuns

    J2 - 24.5%
    R1b - 21.5%
    I - 20.50%
    E - 16.5%
    R1a - 10.0%

    https://www.eupedia.com/europe/europ...logroups.shtml
    Bosnia-Herzegovina Serbs, I2a 30%, R1a 13% E1b 20%

    This is only data from scientific work for Bosnian Serbs, everything else is not based on scientific work, ie it can not serve as evidence.

    http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turk...GeneticsEn.htm

    If we start to add haplogroups from different portals then there is nothing left of statistics, each portal has its own statistics.

    We have to keep scientific papers, everything else is a crystal ball and anarchy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hrvat22 View Post
    Bosnia-Herzegovina Serbs, I2a 30%, R1a 13% E1b 20%

    This is only data from scientific work for Bosnian Serbs, everything else is not based on scientific work, ie it can not serve as evidence.

    http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turk...GeneticsEn.htm

    If we start to add haplogroups from different portals then there is nothing left of statistics, each portal has its own statistics.

    We have to keep scientific papers, everything else is a crystal ball and anarchy.
    Stop using data from year 2005 that was 12 years ago, you live in past my dear friend.

    Look at Eupedia https://www.eupedia.com/europe/europ...logroups.shtml

    Bosnian Serbs according to Eupedia from year 2017

    I2a - 32,5%

    R1a - 20%

    E1b - 17,5%


    Deal with it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bachus View Post
    Stop using data from year 2005 that was 12 years ago, you live in past my dear friend.

    Look at Eupedia https://www.eupedia.com/europe/europ...logroups.shtml

    Bosnian Serbs according to Eupedia from year 2017

    I2a - 32,5%

    R1a - 20%

    E1b - 17,5%


    Deal with it.
    Which Eupedia ?

    Only scientific work on Planet Earth for Bosnian Serbs is from year 2005.

    http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turk...GeneticsEn.htm

    Eupedia dont doing genetic research for Bosnian Serbs, there is no other scientifically based article for Bosnian Serbs. That why it is only evidence, everything else is a children's show.

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    0 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by hrvat22 View Post
    Which Eupedia ?

    Only scientific work on Planet Earth for Bosnian Serbs is from year 2005.

    http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turk...GeneticsEn.htm

    Eupedia dont doing genetic research for Bosnian Serbs, there is no other scientifically based article for Bosnian Serbs. That why it is only evidence, everything else is a children's show.
    https://www.eupedia.com/europe/europ...logroups.shtml


    You're jealous because Bosnian Serbs have more R1a than Bosnian Croats.

    Bosnian Serbs also have more R1a than Bosniaks, but don't be sad Bosnian Croats have more Vlach I2a Din-south.

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    Do you understand English?
    Only scientific work on Planet Earth for Bosnian Serbs is from year 2005.
    Why and on what basis on Eupedia writes differently you need to ask them on Eupedia.My opinion is that they get information from Serbian genetic portal Poreklo, but this is not based on a scientifically article. This is not scientifically based evidence and I can not use it as such. For Bosnian Croats is the same result in the Eupedia as it was and year 2005. because there are not any new scientific work.The same thing is for Bosnian Serbs, we can use as evidence only scientific article. Eupedia, Serbian genetic portal Poreklo, genetic databases in the world, public genetic databases etc.. are not scientifically proven evidence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bachus View Post
    https://www.eupedia.com/europe/europ...logroups.shtmlYou're jealous because Bosnian Serbs have more R1a than Bosnian Croats. Bosnian Serbs also have more R1a than Bosniaks, but don't be sad Bosnian Croats have more Vlach I2a Din-south.
    How I2a Din-south with 70% can be Vlach origin when Vlachs have and E1b, J2b, R1b types, there is no gene detector at the border to Croatia or Herzegovina which only lets people with I2a Din-south.I2a Din-south with subclade https://yfull.com/tree/I-S17250/ is proof that Croats came from White Croata to Balkans.http://www.waughfamily.ca/Ancient/Tr...r%20Hg%20I.pdf
    You're jealous because Bosnian Serbs have more R1a than Bosnian Croats.
    Do you hear me..
    Only scientific work on Planet Earth for Bosnian Serbs is from year 2005.
    If in that scientific work writes that Bosnian Serbs have
    Bosnia-Herzegovina Serbs, I2a 30%, R1a 13% E1b 20%
    and there is no other scientific work on the Planet Earth, then this is the only genetic evidence of Bosnian Serbs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hrvat22 View Post
    How I2a Din-south with 70% can be Vlach origin when Vlachs have and E1b, J2b, R1b types, there is no gene detector at the border to Croatia or Herzegovina which only lets people with I2a Din-south.I2a Din-south with subclade https://yfull.com/tree/I-S17250/ is proof that Croats came from White Croata to Balkans.http://www.waughfamily.ca/Ancient/Tr...r%20Hg%20I.pdfDo you hear me.. If in that scientific work writes that Bosnian Serbs have and there is no other scientific work on the Planet Earth, then this is the only genetic evidence of Bosnian Serbs.
    I2a Din-south is Vlach haplogroup, and I2a Din-north is Slavic.

    I am I2a Din-north and I am happy because I'm not Vlach (Morlach) origin as majority of Herzegovian/Dalmatian Croats.

  24. #149
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    I'm not Vlach (Morlach) origin as majority of Herzegovian/Dalmatian Croats.
    Genetics of Croats and especially Croats from Dalmatia proves migration from White Croatia.For the first time I hear that from White Croatia to Roman Dalmatia come Vlachs (Morlachs). Do you have historical record that proves this migration or and that writes on Eupedia.?
    Historia Salonitana 13th centuryFrom the Polish territories called Lingonia seven or eight tribal clans arrived under Totilo. When they saw that the Croatian land would be suitable for habitation because in it there were few Roman colonies, they sought and obtained for their duke...The people called Croats.
    Nikifor Brienije (1062-1137)..- Croats and Dukljans, again (1073), devastated the entire Illyricum ...- When Croats and Dukljans destroyed Illyricum, "Brijen's father assembled army by.order of Emperor Mihail VII, (1071-1078) and lead against "Dukljans and Croats".
    Mehmed-paša Sokolović, great vizier of the Ottoman Empire, issued a year 1566 commandment on the occasion of the Greek Patriarch, in which he says: " Roman Franciscan in Budim (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buda), Timisoara (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timi%C8%99oara) and Dubrovnik and of all Croatian nation do not ask charity, if that nation belong to the Greek patriarch
    Toponyms that Croats brought from Carpatians to Croatia.http://www.kapitaltrade.hr/wp-conten...-s-Karpata.jpg

    Name Hrvat-Croat


    The basic Croatian or Latinized characters of these names are more frequently mentioned in the 13th century in the Zadar surrounding and on Pag, from 14th century in Skradin, Split, Kljuc in western Bosnia and in the Zagreb area, and from the 15th century in the Klis(Dalmatia)surrounding and Budva in today's Montenegro.
    https://webcache.googleusercontent.c...&ct=clnk&gl=hr


    Mehmed Zilli (25 March 1611 – 1682), known as Evliya Çelebi (was an Ottoman explorer who travelled through the territory of the Ottoman Empire)

    It is interesting that Evliya Çelebi does not mention Vlachs where it would be expected to be everywhere in the hinterland of the Adriatic. He does not know about Morlachs. All that population he simply calls as Croatians,
    http://www.evliyachelebi.org/novi-ev...graf-putopisa/

    etc..


    Venetians were called population of Dalmatia as Morlachs but still to Roman Dalmatia coming Croats from White Croatia and proof for that is I2a Dinaric.

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    There is no evidence that I2a Din-south came from "White Croatia."

    "White Croatia" probably did not exist, deal with it.

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