Knez Dervan's Serbia and the Ethnogenisis of Balkan Serbs

[stoningbull54]

Today I was looking at a map of the distribution of haplgroup I2a1 in Europe when I made an interesting discovery. According to Serbian legend and the Byzantine Chronicles, the Serbs left an area known as "White Serbia" under the leadership of the Unknown Archon to migrate into the Balkans. This archon was said to be the son of Knez Dervan who ruled over an area of East Germany in the area which is today inhabited by Sorbs. If we examine a map of Dervan's realm and compare it to I2a1 frequency, we can clearly an elevated concentration of I2a1 in the area of his former realm:


Could the elevated frequency of I2a1 in southeast Germany and western Czech Republic be the result of a Serbian presence in the dark ages? It is quite evident that there is an elevated frequency of I2a1 in the areas ascribed in Byzantine Chronicles as the location from which Serbs migrated to the Balkans.

[Kingslav]

South Slavs you guys had great migration from White Croatia, White Serbia during medieval era. If you want read about this, I belong to this coat of arms and we are I2A-DIN. This people is nobility of Carpatho-Rus. Some of the people who belong to this originated from Saxony, east Germany the region you referencing, but were Slavs. The second option for that spot of I2A-DIN in east Germany, people from Carpatho-Rus rich in I2A-DIN migrated to west Poland after WW2 my family is example, some of them take jobs in Germany, Czech on other side of border for economic reason and just remained there. There is people in my own family did this.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sas_coat_of_arms

[stoningbull54]

Very interesting, I was aware that the old Polish nobility were carriers of I2a. Perhaps this group was the warrior class among the ancient slavs? This would make sense with regard to the slavic expansion into the Balkans, as it was only the warriors who came and not the farmers (R1a dominant). Like you, I am I2a - Din (I2a1b3 - L621).

[Kingslav]

Very interesting, I was aware that the old Polish nobility were carriers of I2a. Perhaps this group was the warrior class among the ancient slavs? This would make sense with regard to the slavic expansion into the Balkans, as it was only the warriors who came and not the farmers (R1a dominant). Like you, I am I2a - Din (I2a1b3 - L621).

Warrior class are certainly I2A-DIN, the Indo-European Invaders from Steppe are R1A. I2A-DIN descend from Thracians, Dacians who were living proximity of Black Sea. These same people were ruling class in modern times until 1945.

I am I2a1b-L621

[stoningbull54]

Interesting, do you trace your descent from the Carpathian mountains? Specifically, among the Ukrainian Boykos/Lemkos? I am aware that these groups of Carpathian Slavs have an elevated frequency of I2a1b-L621.

[LeBrok]

South Slavs you guys had great migration from White Croatia, White Serbia during medieval era. If you want read about this, I belong to this coat of arms and we are I2A-DIN. This people is nobility of Carpatho-Rus. Some of the people who belong to this originated from Saxony, east Germany the region you referencing, but were Slavs. The second option for that spot of I2A-DIN in east Germany, people from Carpatho-Rus rich in I2A-DIN migrated to west Poland after WW2 my family is example, some of them take jobs in Germany, Czech on other side of border for economic reason and just remained there. There is people in my own family did this.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sas_coat_of_arms

Warrior class are certainly I2A-DIN, the Indo-European Invaders from Steppe are R1A. I2A-DIN descend from Thracians, Dacians who were living proximity of Black Sea. These same people were ruling class in modern times until 1945.

I am I2a1b-L621

Do you know less definitive words like: perhaps, maybe, more or less likely, probably, in my opinion, I'm guessing, etc? No?
But of course you figured this all out without doubt, without ancient DNA.

[Kingslav]

Interesting, do you trace your descent from the Carpathian mountains? Specifically, among the Ukrainian Boykos/Lemkos? I am aware that these groups of Carpathian Slavs have an elevated frequency of I2a1b-L621.

My paternal side from Carpathians, we are Hutsuls, from where is now southwestern Ukraine and Northern Romania.

Here is more about Boykos, Lemkos, Hutsuls.

Genetics of Carpatho-Rus

"In terms of haplogroup frequencies, the Hutsuls are more like their non-Rusyn neighbors (especially Ukrainians) than the Boykos or Lemkos. Meanwhile, Boykos and Lemkos are most like Romanians and Czechs, and Hutsuls are most like Croatian mainlanders. The Hutsuls are the easternmost Rusyns, living in Hutsulschyna in easternmost Subcarpathian Rus' in Ukraine and in neighboring northernmost Romania."

[Kingslav]

Do you know less definitive words like: perhaps, maybe, more or less likely, probably, in my opinion, I'm guessing, etc? No?
But of course you figured this all out without doubt, without ancient DNA.

Oh Im sorry, maybe you have better theory why ancestors were in Carpathians?

[stoningbull54]

The Serbian homeland before the migration to "White Serbia" was known as Boyka. There is a theory that the Boykos are the remnants of the Serbs before their western migration to East Germany, while the Hutsuls are the remnants of the Croats before they began their migration westward. Have you done this Eurogenes K36 map before using your gedmatch results? I would be curious to see what results you get. The link you can use to tabulate your results is below as is my map.

http://gen3553.pagesperso-orange.fr/ADN/similitude.htm

Attachment 8958

[LeBrok]

Oh Im sorry, maybe you have better theory why ancestors were in Carpathians?

That's the thing, present them as hypotheses or your educated guesses, not as facts. You might gain some credibility and respect.

[Kingslav]

That's the thing, present them as hypotheses or your educated guesses, not as facts. You might gain some credibility and respect.

I am not looking for respect on here, I am here to discuss the real history.

[Kingslav]

The Serbian homeland before the migration to "White Serbia" was known as Boyka. There is a theory that the Boykos are the remnants of the Serbs before their western migration to East Germany, while the Hutsuls are the remnants of the Croats before they began their migration westward. Have you done this Eurogenes K36 map before using your gedmatch results? I would be curious to see what results you get. The link you can use to tabulate your results is below as is my map.

http://gen3553.pagesperso-orange.fr/ADN/similitude.htm

Attachment 8958

Yeah I just did it, what does the % suggest?

The countries I score 75 or more,

Croatia 75, Moldova 75, Romania 80, Hungary 79, Slovakia 79, Czech 77, Ukraine 85, Poland 89, Russia 85, Belarus 88, Lithuania 78, Latvia 79, Saxony 75 (East Germany)

I cant see the attachment

[LeBrok]

I am not looking for respect on here, I am here to discuss the real history.

How can it be, if you present your hypotheses as real history?

[Kingslav]

How can it be, if you present your hypotheses as real history?

Im not asking you to believe my views, you have all freedoms

[Leka]

Original Serbs were Jatts, they came from India.

[stoningbull54]

What Leka is presenting is a theory, while what I am presenting is history from a Byzantine historical chronicle which stated that the Serbs arrived from "White Serbia". What I am trying to say is this validated by an elevated frequency of I2a1 in their supposed homeland.

[LeBrok]

Original Serbs were Jatts, they came from India.

Did you come here to make an arss of yourself? Stupidities like this you can post on your facebook or your own website.

[stoningbull54]

Here's my K36 map. Post yours if you can:

[Vlad82]

Hi!
This is my first post here.
I am not sure that map of I2a1 is right.
According to some researches there is no high I2a1 frequency in area of Dervan's Serbia.
A global analysis of Y-chromosomal haplotype diversity for 23 STR loci"
LEIPZIG n=302
Results (Nevgen predictor) for R1a and I2a1b:
R1а М417/M458 =21.53
R1a Z93/Z284/L664 =3.97
I2-CTS10228 =3.97

Or with subbranches:
R1a М417 =7.94
CТS3402> YP238, YP951, Y2613
CTS8816>YP315, L1280, Y2910
CTS1211>P278.2, YP4278
Z92>Y4459

R1a M458 =13.57
R1a M458 (xL260) =8.60
R1a L260 =4.96

R1a L644 =0.99
L664>S3479
L664>S2894>YP285

R1a Z284 =1.98
Z284>L448>CTS4179
Z284>6842
R1a Z93 =0.99
Z93>Z94>S23592
.
______
I2a Dinaric =3.97
I-CTS10228 (dinaric north) =3.64
I-PH908 (dinaric south) =0.33

"Contemporary paternal genetic landscape of Polish and German populations: from early medieval Slavic expansion to post-World War II resettlements"
Lusatian Sorbs n=123
R1a-M417 =8.13
CTS8816>YP315, L1280
CTS3402>YP951 или Y2613

R1a-M458 =56.91
R-M458 (xL260) =23.57
R-L260 =33.33
______
R1b-M269 =9.75
R-L48 =4.06
R-P312 =3.25
R-L23 =1.62
R-U106 =0.81
______
I1-M253 =9.75
I-M253 =6.50
I-L22 =2.43
I-M91 =0.81
______
E1b-V13 =4.87
______
I2-CTS10228 (Dinaric North) =2.43
______
G2a-P15 =2.43
______
J2a-M410 =1.62
______
I2-M223 =1.62
______
J2b-M241 =0.81
______
J1-M267 =0.81
______
I2c2 =0.81


"Toward Male Individualization with Rapidly Mutating Y-Chromosomal Short Tandem Repeats"
LEIPZIG n=215
R1a 21.4%
I2a1b 3.72% (din north 2.325%: din south 1.39%)

The highest frequencies of I2a dinaric among West Slavs are in Central Bohemia (Czech Valley)
"Evaluation of 14 Ychromosomal Short TandemRepeat Haplotype with Focuson DYS449, DYS456, andDYS458: Czech Population Sample"
DNA samples were obtained from 50 unrelated healthy Czech Caucasian male participants living in or around Prague (Czech Republic)

R1b	22	44.0%
I2a din	8	16.0%	;449<31	3	6.00%	449=31	3	6.00%	449>31	2	4.0%
R1a	7	14.0%
I1	3	6.0%
I1/G2a	1	2.0%
J2	4	8.0%
N1c	1	2.0%
H1a M82/J2a1	1	2.0%
H1a M82 74%	1	2.0%
I2a2a M223	2	4.0%

Note: because of low number STR markers some predictions might not be accurate.

"Y-Chromosomal Variation in the Czech Republic"
Klatovy I2a-P37 14.6% and Pisek I2a-P37 9.2%


According to Genebaze . cz
Zlin and Olomouc regions have high frequency of I2a dinaric.

[Leka]

Did you come here to make an arss of yourself? Stupidities like this you can post on your facebook or your own website.

Why don't you counter it but you outright insult me? Not very nice of you, for a mod. Calm your le tits, I am just taking a piss - that's what almost everyone seems to be doing here anyway.

[Vlad82]

My paternal side from Carpathians, we are Hutsuls, from where is now southwestern Ukraine and Northern Romania.

Here is more about Boykos, Lemkos, Hutsuls.

Genetics of Carpatho-Rus

"In terms of haplogroup frequencies, the Hutsuls are more like their non-Rusyn neighbors (especially Ukrainians) than the Boykos or Lemkos. Meanwhile, Boykos and Lemkos are most like Romanians and Czechs, and Hutsuls are most like Croatian mainlanders. The Hutsuls are the easternmost Rusyns, living in Hutsulschyna in easternmost Subcarpathian Rus' in Ukraine and in neighboring northernmost Romania."

This is interesting!
Bukovina and Northerneastern Romania have the highest frequencies of I2a dinaric outside Balkan approximately between 30% and 45% .

May I know your kit number in I2a project?

[Vlad82]

I am not sure that map of I2a1 is right.
According to some researches there is no high I2a1 frequency in area of Dervan's Serbia.
A global analysis of Y-chromosomal haplotype diversity for 23 STR loci"
LEIPZIG n=302
Results (Nevgen predictor) for R1a and I2a1b:
R1а М417/M458 =21.53
R1a Z93/Z284/L664 =3.97
I2-CTS10228 =3.97

Or with subbranches:
R1a М417 =7.94
CТS3402> YP238, YP951, Y2613
CTS8816>YP315, L1280, Y2910
CTS1211>P278.2, YP4278
Z92>Y4459

R1a M458 =13.57
R1a M458 (xL260) =8.60
R1a L260 =4.96

R1a L644 =0.99
L664>S3479
L664>S2894>YP285

R1a Z284 =1.98
Z284>L448>CTS4179
Z284>6842
R1a Z93 =0.99
Z93>Z94>S23592
.
______
I2a Dinaric =3.97
I-CTS10228 (dinaric north) =3.64
I-PH908 (dinaric south) =0.33

"Contemporary paternal genetic landscape of Polish and German populations: from early medieval Slavic expansion to post-World War II resettlements"
Lusatian Sorbs n=123
R1a-M417 =8.13
CTS8816>YP315, L1280
CTS3402>YP951 или Y2613

R1a-M458 =56.91
R-M458 (xL260) =23.57
R-L260 =33.33
______
R1b-M269 =9.75
R-L48 =4.06
R-P312 =3.25
R-L23 =1.62
R-U106 =0.81
______
I1-M253 =9.75
I-M253 =6.50
I-L22 =2.43
I-M91 =0.81
______
E1b-V13 =4.87
______
I2-CTS10228 (Dinaric North) =2.43
______
G2a-P15 =2.43
______
J2a-M410 =1.62
______
I2-M223 =1.62
______
J2b-M241 =0.81
______
J1-M267 =0.81
______
I2c2 =0.81


"Toward Male Individualization with Rapidly Mutating Y-Chromosomal Short Tandem Repeats"
LEIPZIG n=215
R1a 21.4%
I2a1b 3.72% (din north 2.325%: din south 1.39%)

The highest frequencies of I2a dinaric among West Slavs are in Central Bohemia (Czech Valley)
"Evaluation of 14 Ychromosomal Short TandemRepeat Haplotype with Focuson DYS449, DYS456, andDYS458: Czech Population Sample"
DNA samples were obtained from 50 unrelated healthy Czech Caucasian male participants living in or around Prague (Czech Republic)

R1b	22	44.0%
I2a din	8	16.0%	;449<31	3	6.00%	449=31	3	6.00%	449>31	2	4.0%
R1a	7	14.0%
I1	3	6.0%
I1/G2a	1	2.0%
J2	4	8.0%
N1c	1	2.0%
H1a M82/J2a1	1	2.0%
H1a M82 74%	1	2.0%
I2a2a M223	2	4.0%

Note: because of low number STR markers some predictions might not be accurate.

"Y-Chromosomal Variation in the Czech Republic"
Klatovy I2a-P37 14.6% and Pisek I2a-P37 9.2%


According to Genebaze . cz
Zlin and Olomouc regions have high frequency of I2a dinaric.

[Kingslav]

This is interesting!
Bukovina and Northerneastern Romania have the highest frequencies of I2a dinaric outside Balkan approximately between 30% and 45% .

May I know your kit number in I2a project?

Here is my Gedmatch Oracles


Eurogenes K15 Oracles- Kingslav


# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance


1 80.7% Estonian + 19.3% Greek_Thessaly @ 5.72
2 87.1% Estonian + 12.9% Libyan_Jewish @ 5.8
3 88.7% Estonian + 11.3% Samaritan @ 5.88
4 89% Estonian + 11% Lebanese_Christian @ 5.91
5 70.9% Ukrainian_Lviv + 29.1% Estonian @ 5.94
6 87.9% Estonian + 12.1% Cyprian @ 5.95
7 89% Estonian + 11% Lebanese_Druze @ 5.99
8 77.4% Ukrainian + 22.6% Estonian @ 6.06
9 87% Estonian + 13% Algerian_Jewish @ 6.14
10 86.7% Estonian + 13.3% Italian_Jewish @ 6.15
11 84.7% Estonian + 15.3% Central_Greek @ 6.17
12 85.9% Estonian + 14.1% South_Italian @ 6.18
13 84.2% Estonian + 15.8% Ashkenazi @ 6.18
14 97.9% Ukrainian + 2.1% Yemenite_Jewish @ 6.21
15 85.1% Estonian + 14.9% East_Sicilian @ 6.23
16 89% Estonian + 11% Palestinian @ 6.23
17 89.6% Ukrainian + 10.4% Lithuanian @ 6.26
18 88.8% Estonian + 11.2% Jordanian @ 6.27
19 98.3% Ukrainian + 1.7% Lebanese_Druze @ 6.28
20 84.1% Ukrainian_Lviv + 15.9% Lithuanian @ 6.29


Dodecad K12b Oracle- Kingslav


# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance


1 62.7% Hungarians + 37.3% Russian @ 1.4
2 81.3% Mixed_Slav + 18.7% Andalucia @ 1.52
3 73.6% Russian_B + 26.4% Cataluna @ 1.61
4 75.2% Hungarians + 24.8% Finnish @ 1.62
5 74.1% Hungarians + 25.9% Lithuanians @ 1.64
6 74.8% Russian + 25.2% Baleares @ 1.65
7 79.4% Mixed_Slav + 20.6% Baleares @ 1.67
8 74.5% Russian_B + 25.5% Spaniards @ 1.7
9 57.2% Ukranians + 42.8% German @ 1.73
10 71.1% Hungarians + 28.9% Lithuanian @ 1.73
11 56.6% Hungarians + 43.4% Mixed_Slav @ 1.74
12 75.6% Russian_B + 24.4% Castilla_La_Mancha @ 1.75
13 68.2% Ukranians + 31.8% Mixed_Germanic @ 1.79
14 74% Hungarians + 26% FIN30 @ 1.8
15 80.2% Mixed_Slav + 19.8% Spaniards @ 1.81
16 66% Russian_B + 34% French @ 1.82
17 79.4% Mixed_Slav + 20.6% Extremadura @ 1.83
18 83.7% Russian + 16.3% Sardinian @ 1.84
19 74% Russian + 26% North_Italian @ 1.88
20 75.5% Russian_B + 24.5% Valencia @ 1.88


PuntDNAL K15 Oracle- Kingslav


# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance


1 52.2% Belarusian + 47.8% Austrian @ 1.47
2 79.8% Belarusian + 20.2% Italian @ 1.51
3 50.9% Belarusian + 49.1% Slovenian @ 1.51
4 66.7% Lithuanian + 33.3% Macedonian @ 1.59
5 68.8% Lithuanian + 31.2% Bulgarian @ 1.6
6 72.1% Lithuanian + 27.9% Italian @ 1.6
7 68.2% Lithuanian + 31.8% Romanian @ 1.61
8 76.7% Belarusian + 23.3% Romanian @ 1.61
9 69.2% Belarusian + 30.8% Serbian @ 1.61
10 78.5% Belarusian + 21.5% Montenegrin @ 1.65
11 54.5% Belarusian + 45.5% Hungarian @ 1.67
12 75.4% Lithuanian + 24.6% Albanian @ 1.67
13 59.8% Slovenian + 40.2% Lithuanian @ 1.68
14 56.2% Hungarian + 43.8% Lithuanian @ 1.68
15 59.4% Lithuanian + 40.6% Serbian @ 1.69
16 70.3% Lithuanian + 29.7% Montenegrin @ 1.69
17 83.1% Belarusian + 16.9% Tuscan @ 1.7
18 82.5% Belarusian + 17.5% Albanian @ 1.72
19 77.2% Belarusian + 22.8% Bulgarian @ 1.74
20 76.2% Lithuanian + 23.8% Tuscan @ 1.74

[Vlad82]

Thank you Kingslav!
I also belong to I2a dinaric. Unfortunately I have not done autosomal test yet.
Do you know your deeper SNP of I2a dinaric?

[Kingslav]

Here is my K36
and also comparison with 54 other Polish samples.


Population- K36 Kingslav


Amerindian -
Arabian -
Armenian -
Basque 0.61 *****
Central_African -
Central_Euro 10.84
East_African -
East_Asian -
East_Balkan 5.37 *****
East_Central_Asian -
East_Central_Euro 26.61
East_Med 0.81 *****
Eastern_Euro 16.42
Fennoscandian 11.57
French 6.04
Iberian 7.39 *****
Indo-Chinese -
Italian 1.11 *****
Malayan -
Near_Eastern -
North_African -
North_Atlantic 2.32
North_Caucasian 3.48 *****
North_Sea 7.28
Northeast_African -
Oceanian -
Omotic -
Pygmy 0.09 *****
Siberian -
South_Asian -
South_Central_Asian -
South_Chinese -
Volga-Ural -
West_African 0.05 *****
West_Caucasian -
West_Med -



vs Average results of 54 Polish samples in Eurogenes K36 calculator:


Admixture present in x/54 Poles (% range) - avg. %


1) East_Central_Euro 54/54 (17.83 - 33.17) - 24.38
2) Eastern_Euro 54/54 (9.24 - 22.15) - 16.05
3) Fennoscandian 54/54 (6.02 - 16.44) - 12.10
4) North_Sea 54/54 (2.74 - 15.89) - 9.73
5) Central_Euro 54/54 (4.92 - 12.94) - 9.31
6) North_Atlantic 54/54 (0.64 - 12.06) - 6.90
7) East_Balkan 53/54 (1.23 - 11.54) - 6.24 ***** Me 5.37 *****


8) Iberian 53/54 (0.06 - 9.0) - 4.57 ***** Me 7.39 *****
9) French 52/54 (1.29 - 7.96) - 4.07
10) Italian 43/54 (0.07 - 11.47) - 3.07 ***** Me 1.11 *****
11) Basque 40/54 (0.14 - 3.5) - 1.13 ***** Me 0.61 *****
12) Volga-Ural 38/54 (0.12 - 4.63) - 1.03
13) North_Caucasian 21/54 (0.05 - 5.73) - 0.60 ***** Me 3.48 *****


14) West_Med 14/54 (0.1 - 2.35) - 0.21
15) West_Caucasian 9/54 (0.19 - 2.68) - 0.21
16) Armenian 8/54 (0.07 - 3.19) - 0.15
17) East_Med 1/54 (3.77) - 0.07 ***** Me 0.81 *****
18) South_Central_Asian 4/54 (0.26 - 1.11) - 0.05
19) Amerindian 5/54 (0.13 - 1.17) - 0.05
20) Oceanian 4/54 (0.06 - 0.67) - 0.02
21) Arabian 1/54 (1.04) - 0.02
22) West_African 2/54 (0.3 - 0.38) - 0.01 ***** Me 0.05 *****
23) Northeast_African 1/54 (0.24) - 0.004


24) Siberian 0/54 - 0.00
25) East_Asian 0/54 - 0.00
26) East_Central_Asian 0/54 - 0.00
27) Indo-Chinese 0/54 - 0.00
28) South_Chinese 0/54 - 0.00
29) South_Asian 0/54 - 0.00
30) Malayan 0/54 - 0.00
31) Near_Eastern 0/54 - 0.00
32) North_African 0/54 - 0.00
33) East_African 0/54 - 0.00
34) Omotic 0/54 - 0.00
35) Central_African 0/54 - 0.00
36) Pygmy 0/54 - 0.00 ***** Me 0.09 *****