Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Page 1 of 4 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 168

Thread: Knez Dervan's Serbia and the Ethnogenisis of Balkan Serbs

Hybrid View

Previous Post Previous Post   Next Post Next Post
  1. #1
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Tagger Second Class3 months registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    09-05-17
    Posts
    18
    Points
    1,180
    Level
    9
    Points: 1,180, Level: 9
    Level completed: 15%, Points required for next Level: 170
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Canada



    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.

    Knez Dervan's Serbia and the Ethnogenisis of Balkan Serbs

    Today I was looking at a map of the distribution of haplgroup I2a1 in Europe when I made an interesting discovery. According to Serbian legend and the Byzantine Chronicles, the Serbs left an area known as "White Serbia" under the leadership of the Unknown Archon to migrate into the Balkans. This archon was said to be the son of Knez Dervan who ruled over an area of East Germany in the area which is today inhabited by Sorbs. If we examine a map of Dervan's realm and compare it to I2a1 frequency, we can clearly an elevated concentration of I2a1 in the area of his former realm:


    Could the elevated frequency of I2a1 in southeast Germany and western Czech Republic be the result of a Serbian presence in the dark ages? It is quite evident that there is an elevated frequency of I2a1 in the areas ascribed in Byzantine Chronicles as the location from which Serbs migrated to the Balkans.

  2. #2
    Banned Achievements:
    100 Experience Points3 months registered

    Join Date
    17-06-17
    Location
    Polska/Ukraina
    Posts
    192

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2a1b-L621-Balkan
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U2-Russia South

    Ethnic group
    Slav, Sephardi, Turk
    Country: Poland



    South Slavs you guys had great migration from White Croatia, White Serbia during medieval era. If you want read about this, I belong to this coat of arms and we are I2A-DIN. This people is nobility of Carpatho-Rus. Some of the people who belong to this originated from Saxony, east Germany the region you referencing, but were Slavs. The second option for that spot of I2A-DIN in east Germany, people from Carpatho-Rus rich in I2A-DIN migrated to west Poland after WW2 my family is example, some of them take jobs in Germany, Czech on other side of border for economic reason and just remained there. There is people in my own family did this.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sas_coat_of_arms

  3. #3
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Tagger Second Class3 months registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    09-05-17
    Posts
    18
    Points
    1,180
    Level
    9
    Points: 1,180, Level: 9
    Level completed: 15%, Points required for next Level: 170
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Canada



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Very interesting, I was aware that the old Polish nobility were carriers of I2a. Perhaps this group was the warrior class among the ancient slavs? This would make sense with regard to the slavic expansion into the Balkans, as it was only the warriors who came and not the farmers (R1a dominant). Like you, I am I2a - Din (I2a1b3 - L621).

  4. #4
    Banned Achievements:
    100 Experience Points3 months registered

    Join Date
    17-06-17
    Location
    Polska/Ukraina
    Posts
    192

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2a1b-L621-Balkan
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U2-Russia South

    Ethnic group
    Slav, Sephardi, Turk
    Country: Poland



    0 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by stoningbull54 View Post
    Very interesting, I was aware that the old Polish nobility were carriers of I2a. Perhaps this group was the warrior class among the ancient slavs? This would make sense with regard to the slavic expansion into the Balkans, as it was only the warriors who came and not the farmers (R1a dominant). Like you, I am I2a - Din (I2a1b3 - L621).
    Warrior class are certainly I2A-DIN, the Indo-European Invaders from Steppe are R1A. I2A-DIN descend from Thracians, Dacians who were living proximity of Black Sea. These same people were ruling class in modern times until 1945.

    I am I2a1b-L621

  5. #5
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Tagger Second Class3 months registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    09-05-17
    Posts
    18
    Points
    1,180
    Level
    9
    Points: 1,180, Level: 9
    Level completed: 15%, Points required for next Level: 170
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Canada



    Interesting, do you trace your descent from the Carpathian mountains? Specifically, among the Ukrainian Boykos/Lemkos? I am aware that these groups of Carpathian Slavs have an elevated frequency of I2a1b-L621.

  6. #6
    Banned Achievements:
    100 Experience Points3 months registered

    Join Date
    17-06-17
    Location
    Polska/Ukraina
    Posts
    192

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2a1b-L621-Balkan
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U2-Russia South

    Ethnic group
    Slav, Sephardi, Turk
    Country: Poland



    Quote Originally Posted by stoningbull54 View Post
    Interesting, do you trace your descent from the Carpathian mountains? Specifically, among the Ukrainian Boykos/Lemkos? I am aware that these groups of Carpathian Slavs have an elevated frequency of I2a1b-L621.
    My paternal side from Carpathians, we are Hutsuls, from where is now southwestern Ukraine and Northern Romania.

    Here is more about Boykos, Lemkos, Hutsuls.

    Genetics of Carpatho-Rus

    "In terms of haplogroup frequencies, the Hutsuls are more like their non-Rusyn neighbors (especially Ukrainians) than the Boykos or Lemkos. Meanwhile, Boykos and Lemkos are most like Romanians and Czechs, and Hutsuls are most like Croatian mainlanders. The Hutsuls are the easternmost Rusyns, living in Hutsulschyna in easternmost Subcarpathian Rus' in Ukraine and in neighboring northernmost Romania."

  7. #7
    Advisor Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteranTagger First Class50000 Experience PointsRecommendation First Class
    Awards:
    Discussion Ender
    LeBrok's Avatar
    Join Date
    18-11-09
    Location
    Calgary
    Posts
    10,329
    Points
    110,111
    Level
    100
    Points: 110,111, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b Z2109
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1c

    Ethnic group
    Citizen of the world
    Country: Canada-Alberta



    Quote Originally Posted by Kingslav View Post
    South Slavs you guys had great migration from White Croatia, White Serbia during medieval era. If you want read about this, I belong to this coat of arms and we are I2A-DIN. This people is nobility of Carpatho-Rus. Some of the people who belong to this originated from Saxony, east Germany the region you referencing, but were Slavs. The second option for that spot of I2A-DIN in east Germany, people from Carpatho-Rus rich in I2A-DIN migrated to west Poland after WW2 my family is example, some of them take jobs in Germany, Czech on other side of border for economic reason and just remained there. There is people in my own family did this.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sas_coat_of_arms

    Warrior class are certainly I2A-DIN, the Indo-European Invaders from Steppe are R1A. I2A-DIN descend from Thracians, Dacians who were living proximity of Black Sea. These same people were ruling class in modern times until 1945.

    I am I2a1b-L621
    Do you know less definitive words like: perhaps, maybe, more or less likely, probably, in my opinion, I'm guessing, etc? No?
    But of course you figured this all out without doubt, without ancient DNA.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

  8. #8
    Banned Achievements:
    100 Experience Points3 months registered

    Join Date
    17-06-17
    Location
    Polska/Ukraina
    Posts
    192

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2a1b-L621-Balkan
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U2-Russia South

    Ethnic group
    Slav, Sephardi, Turk
    Country: Poland



    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Do you know less definitive words like: perhaps, maybe, more or less likely, probably, in my opinion, I'm guessing, etc? No?
    But of course you figured this all out without doubt, without ancient DNA.
    Oh Im sorry, maybe you have better theory why ancestors were in Carpathians?

  9. #9
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Tagger Second Class3 months registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    09-05-17
    Posts
    18
    Points
    1,180
    Level
    9
    Points: 1,180, Level: 9
    Level completed: 15%, Points required for next Level: 170
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Canada



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    The Serbian homeland before the migration to "White Serbia" was known as Boyka. There is a theory that the Boykos are the remnants of the Serbs before their western migration to East Germany, while the Hutsuls are the remnants of the Croats before they began their migration westward. Have you done this Eurogenes K36 map before using your gedmatch results? I would be curious to see what results you get. The link you can use to tabulate your results is below as is my map.

    http://gen3553.pagesperso-orange.fr/ADN/similitude.htm

    Attachment 8958

  10. #10
    Banned Achievements:
    100 Experience Points3 months registered

    Join Date
    17-06-17
    Location
    Polska/Ukraina
    Posts
    192

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2a1b-L621-Balkan
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U2-Russia South

    Ethnic group
    Slav, Sephardi, Turk
    Country: Poland



    Quote Originally Posted by stoningbull54 View Post
    The Serbian homeland before the migration to "White Serbia" was known as Boyka. There is a theory that the Boykos are the remnants of the Serbs before their western migration to East Germany, while the Hutsuls are the remnants of the Croats before they began their migration westward. Have you done this Eurogenes K36 map before using your gedmatch results? I would be curious to see what results you get. The link you can use to tabulate your results is below as is my map.

    http://gen3553.pagesperso-orange.fr/ADN/similitude.htm

    Attachment 8958
    Yeah I just did it, what does the % suggest?

    The countries I score 75 or more,

    Croatia 75, Moldova 75, Romania 80, Hungary 79, Slovakia 79, Czech 77, Ukraine 85, Poland 89, Russia 85, Belarus 88, Lithuania 78, Latvia 79, Saxony 75 (East Germany)

    I cant see the attachment
    Last edited by Kingslav; 26-07-17 at 04:58.

  11. #11
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Tagger Second Class3 months registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    09-05-17
    Posts
    18
    Points
    1,180
    Level
    9
    Points: 1,180, Level: 9
    Level completed: 15%, Points required for next Level: 170
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Canada



    Here's my K36 map. Post yours if you can:

  12. #12
    Banned Achievements:
    100 Experience Points3 months registered

    Join Date
    17-06-17
    Location
    Polska/Ukraina
    Posts
    192

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2a1b-L621-Balkan
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U2-Russia South

    Ethnic group
    Slav, Sephardi, Turk
    Country: Poland



    Quote Originally Posted by stoningbull54 View Post
    Here's my K36 map. Post yours if you can:
    I cant see map

  13. #13
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    01-09-14
    Location
    Zagreb
    Posts
    613
    Points
    6,205
    Level
    23
    Points: 6,205, Level: 23
    Level completed: 31%, Points required for next Level: 345
    Overall activity: 18.0%


    Ethnic group
    Croatian
    Country: Croatia



    Quote Originally Posted by stoningbull54 View Post
    The Serbian homeland before the migration to "White Serbia" was known as Boyka. There is a theory that the Boykos are the remnants of the Serbs before their western migration to East Germany, while the Hutsuls are the remnants of the Croats before they began their migration westward. Have you done this Eurogenes K36 map before using your gedmatch results? I would be curious to see what results you get. The link you can use to tabulate your results is below as is my map.

    http://gen3553.pagesperso-orange.fr/ADN/similitude.htm

    Attachment 8958
    The Serbian homeland before the migration to "White Serbia" was known as Boyka.
    There is no historical record about it

  14. #14
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    12-10-16
    Posts
    166
    Points
    2,781
    Level
    15
    Points: 2,781, Level: 15
    Level completed: 11%, Points required for next Level: 269
    Overall activity: 2.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-BY611

    Country: Albania



    3 out of 5 members found this post helpful.
    Original Serbs were Jatts, they came from India.

  15. #15
    Advisor Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteranTagger First Class50000 Experience PointsRecommendation First Class
    Awards:
    Discussion Ender
    LeBrok's Avatar
    Join Date
    18-11-09
    Location
    Calgary
    Posts
    10,329
    Points
    110,111
    Level
    100
    Points: 110,111, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b Z2109
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1c

    Ethnic group
    Citizen of the world
    Country: Canada-Alberta



    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Leka View Post
    Original Serbs were Jatts, they came from India.
    Did you come here to make an arss of yourself? Stupidities like this you can post on your facebook or your own website.

  16. #16
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    12-10-16
    Posts
    166
    Points
    2,781
    Level
    15
    Points: 2,781, Level: 15
    Level completed: 11%, Points required for next Level: 269
    Overall activity: 2.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-BY611

    Country: Albania



    0 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Did you come here to make an arss of yourself? Stupidities like this you can post on your facebook or your own website.
    Why don't you counter it but you outright insult me? Not very nice of you, for a mod. Calm your le tits, I am just taking a piss - that's what almost everyone seems to be doing here anyway.

  17. #17
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    05-03-16
    Posts
    385
    Points
    3,234
    Level
    16
    Points: 3,234, Level: 16
    Level completed: 46%, Points required for next Level: 216
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Yugoslavia



    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Leka View Post
    Original Serbs were Jatts, they came from India.
    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Did you come here to make an arss of yourself? Stupidities like this you can post on your facebook or your own website.
    In reality it is true that they can share common ancestry but the Gets (Getae) the noblest of the Thracians or Jats as they are known in India did not came from India,but rather opposite.Similarities of their names were noted long time ago and for the Jats Scythian origin is determined,this is proven by genetics now.
    The Massagetae from written sources and the Dahae (Dacians) that lived near Indo-Aryans were noted long ago,the fact that they speak Indo-Iranian languages today doesn't mean that's their original origin.

    Jat People Genetics

    A recent study of the people of Indian Punjab, where about 40% or more of the population are Jat people, strongly shows that the Jat people are Indo-Scythians.[102] The study involved a genealogical DNA test which examined single nucleotide polymorphisms (mutations in a single DNA "letter") on the Y chromosome (which occurs only in males). Jats share many common haplotypes with Ukrainian people, Germanic people, Slavic people, Baltic peoples, Iranian people, and Central Asian groups.[103] This strongly indicates they originate from near or in Ukraine.[104] It found Jat people share only two haplotypes, one of which is also shared with the population of present-day Turkish people, and have few matches with neighbouring Pakistani populations.[105] This haplotype shared between the two Jat groups may be part of an Indo-Aryan (or Indo-European people) genetic contribution to these populations, where as the haplotypes shared with other Eurasian populations is due to the strong DNA contributions of Indo-European Scythians (Saka, Massagetae) and White Huns
    The mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) female DNA, Jats contain haplogroups typical of Northern India, Pakistan, and West Asia. This indicates that for the female mtDNA, there is very little connection with Central Asian and northwest European populations, even though Jats share many Y-SNP markers with these populations. Therefore, this DNA Study proves that there has been male DNA into the Jat people from Ukrainian Scythians (Saka, Massagetae) and White Huns.[107]
    The highlighted DNA Study suggests that there has been male DNA into the Jat people from Ukrainian Scythians (Saka, Massagetae) and White Huns
    Old name of the Sclavenes(Slavs) is Gets,the truth is different,despite we like to turn it upsite down.

  18. #18
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran5000 Experience Points
    LABERIA's Avatar
    Join Date
    05-09-15
    Posts
    2,025
    Points
    5,530
    Level
    21
    Points: 5,530, Level: 21
    Level completed: 96%, Points required for next Level: 20
    Overall activity: 13.0%


    Ethnic group
    Albanian
    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by Leka View Post
    Original Serbs were Jatts, they came from India.
    First time i hear this theory. Any source?
    My opinion is that they came from Pashtunistan. There are even some toponymus that suggest this region as the original homeland of the Serbs.
    17 Dec.
    Paget to the Council.

    Now the Council's letters seem to imply (words quoted) that the King will keep no strangers save the Albanoys.

    Cales, 17 Dec. 1545. Signed.


  19. #19
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    06-11-17
    Posts
    273
    Points
    1,956
    Level
    12
    Points: 1,956, Level: 12
    Level completed: 36%, Points required for next Level: 194
    Overall activity: 1.0%


    Country: Serbia



    Quote Originally Posted by LABERIA View Post
    First time i hear this theory. Any source?
    My opinion is that they came from Pashtunistan. There are even some toponymus that suggest this region as the original homeland of the Serbs.
    Serbs have nothing to do with Pashtuns. Genetically, linguistically neihther in any other sense Sebs are not related with Pashtuns.

    Deal with it.

  20. #20
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran5000 Experience Points
    LABERIA's Avatar
    Join Date
    05-09-15
    Posts
    2,025
    Points
    5,530
    Level
    21
    Points: 5,530, Level: 21
    Level completed: 96%, Points required for next Level: 20
    Overall activity: 13.0%


    Ethnic group
    Albanian
    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by Bachus View Post
    Serbs have nothing to do with Pashtuns. Genetically, linguistically neihther in any other sense Sebs are not related with Pashtuns.

    Deal with it.
    In Afghanistan and Pakistan there is a tribal group of Pashtuns called Sarbans / Sarbani. Their name is similar to the name of Caucasian tribe named Sarban (Sarbani), which some researchers connected to Serbs.[6]
    If you don't agree with this theory, you have to offer an alternative.

  21. #21
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    06-11-17
    Posts
    273
    Points
    1,956
    Level
    12
    Points: 1,956, Level: 12
    Level completed: 36%, Points required for next Level: 194
    Overall activity: 1.0%


    Country: Serbia



    Quote Originally Posted by LABERIA View Post
    If you don't agree with this theory, you have to offer an alternative.
    I dont't agree for sure, because Pastuns have 55% R1a-Z93 and among Serbs R1a-Z93 does not exist, not a single Serb with R1a-Z93 from the around 3500 tested Serbs.

    Serbian R1a are Z280 (around 2/3) and M458 (around 1/3) - both are Slavic, other branches of R1a such as Scandinavian Z284 or "Aryan" Z93 does not exist among Serbs.

  22. #22
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Tagger Second Class3 months registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    09-05-17
    Posts
    18
    Points
    1,180
    Level
    9
    Points: 1,180, Level: 9
    Level completed: 15%, Points required for next Level: 170
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Canada



    What Leka is presenting is a theory, while what I am presenting is history from a Byzantine historical chronicle which stated that the Serbs arrived from "White Serbia". What I am trying to say is this validated by an elevated frequency of I2a1 in their supposed homeland.

  23. #23
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    01-09-14
    Location
    Zagreb
    Posts
    613
    Points
    6,205
    Level
    23
    Points: 6,205, Level: 23
    Level completed: 31%, Points required for next Level: 345
    Overall activity: 18.0%


    Ethnic group
    Croatian
    Country: Croatia



    Quote Originally Posted by stoningbull54 View Post
    What Leka is presenting is a theory, while what I am presenting is history from a Byzantine historical chronicle which stated that the Serbs arrived from "White Serbia". What I am trying to say is this validated by an elevated frequency of I2a1 in their supposed homeland.

    White Serbia is not mentioned anywhere. Serbian history is not based on truth and that's why leads to confusion.
    Last edited by hrvat22; 10-09-17 at 19:59.

  24. #24
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran10000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    14-12-10
    Posts
    1,603
    Points
    20,999
    Level
    44
    Points: 20,999, Level: 44
    Level completed: 28%, Points required for next Level: 651
    Overall activity: 2.0%


    Country: Serbia



    Quote Originally Posted by hrvat22 View Post
    Serbian history is not based on truth and that's why leads to confusion.
    This sentence is very offensive and it is wrong. But if you extend view you can see some similarities between Serbian history, Croatian history, Bulgarian history, Hungarian history, and many other European nations history... What Croatian scientist Dr Dzino noticed that different people (nations) feed on similar myths in their own versions. Unfortunately records, especially in further past, are not reliable. They are transcripts of transcripts or oral stories with many changes and additions. You can add myths, biased interpreters etc. And from the time of building of nations (19th century) politics has taken the lead. Here at Eupedia we are trying to find some reliable parameters based on the research of genetic genealogy, it's a giant jigsaw puzzle where we have a few parts for now.
    Quote Originally Posted by hrvat22 View Post
    Sorbs have nothing to do with Balkan Serbs, so Dervan historically can only be related with Sorbs
    Yes. And on another thread already I wrote about it. Dervan's Serbia was country of Lusatuian Sorbs not Balkan Serbs. And Lusatian Sorbs have different genetics. Practically whole thread is on the wrong grounds.

  25. #25
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    01-09-14
    Location
    Zagreb
    Posts
    613
    Points
    6,205
    Level
    23
    Points: 6,205, Level: 23
    Level completed: 31%, Points required for next Level: 345
    Overall activity: 18.0%


    Ethnic group
    Croatian
    Country: Croatia



    Quote Originally Posted by Garrick View Post
    This sentence is very offensive and it is wrong. But if you extend view you can see some similarities between Serbian history, Croatian history, Bulgarian history, Hungarian history, and many other European nations history... What Croatian scientist Dr Dzino noticed that different people (nations) feed on similar myths in their own versions. Unfortunately records, especially in further past, are not reliable. They are transcripts of transcripts or oral stories with many changes and additions. You can add myths, biased interpreters etc. And from the time of building of nations (19th century) politics has taken the lead. Here at Eupedia we are trying to find some reliable parameters based on the research of genetic genealogy, it's a giant jigsaw puzzle where we have a few parts for now. Yes. And on another thread already I wrote about it. Dervan's Serbia was country of Lusatuian Sorbs not Balkan Serbs. And Lusatian Sorbs have different genetics. Practically whole thread is on the wrong grounds.
    Serbian wiki...White Serbia

    https://sr.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%91...B8%D1%98%D0%B0

    If White Serbia does not exist in writing then why in Serbia claim that she exists...

Page 1 of 4 123 ... LastLast

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •