Who were native europeans in Mesolithic era

I know its not a big deal ;) but since theres some evidence that R and I were present in europe in this era so I thought it would only be normal to call them(R) native europeans too, in my view even haplogroup I start in east europe and west eurasia before settling in w.europe I say this because haplogroup I2 is more numerous in romania, ukraine than in turkey so instead of neareast as its origin north black sea and west eurasia seem very logical and they must have taken this northerly route settling europe rather than southerly route through asia minor!

That's not necessarily what happened. I find it very likely that Turkey underwent more demographic movements and changes since the Mesolithic than highland areas in Romania and nearby territories. I2 could've easily been a Western Turkey main haplogroup and it was swept away by the Neolithic expansion of G2a, J2, J1, T and E1b1b people.
 
From what I read there were Gaelic tribes living in Europe during this time?
 
Ygorbr,

You are talking about "neolithic expansion" of T but there is no evidance of such thing. The only T lineage found in Europe at Neolithic times is T1a1a1 (only confirmed until T1a1a-L208). This T lineage is not found in any non-European sample up to date. The other T lineage which have been found in PPNB belong to T1b (tested T1 and negative for all main and reasonable T1a branches). So there is no true link in Mesolithic-Neolithic times among these two T lineages.

There are two deeply separate T branches that have been found up to date. One in Euope and one in Levant.
This T1b found in PPNB but not in Natufians could be migrated from the North ( south Black Sea-Caucasus ) or Northwest ( Aegean Sea ).

If now we look into the T haplogroup tree diversity and the modern distribution of each of their branches, you will see that T1a1a1 looks like being Formed in Europe and somewhere close to the Black Sea. Then a place like or close to Wallachian-Danubian Plain looks like very reasonable.
Also, do you need to think that between T1a1a1 formation and the recently found ancient T1a1a individuals in Malak Preslaviets we have only ~1000 yeras.

T1a1a2 when we look their diversity and modern distribution points to a "Aegean origin". Also T1a1b points to a "Aegean origin".
Then T1a1a1 could be the most northern branch of T1a1 at the start of the Neolithic expansion.

Do you have to take into account that the most ancient of the T1a1a1 samples (tested T1a1 and T1a1a) have 35% Balkan HG atDNA. This is the highest frequency found among any Neolithic sample up to date in Balkans and perhaps Europe of a sample with YDNA tested.
The closest Neolithic samples to this HG atDNA frequency belongs to R1b-V88 and C1a2-V20 confirmed or predicted. Both of them known Mesolithic lineages.

There should be some LT lineages native to Europe at the start of the Neolithic. Among them T1a1a1 is found to be a very good candidate.
 
Also remember that together T1a1a1, the following haplogroups: R1b-V88 and I1 (also I2 and even C1a2-V20) are found among Neolithic samples and have been "demonstrated" to came from different European places despite to be involved in such cultural revolution.
 
Ygorbr,

You are talking about "neolithic expansion" of T but there is no evidance of such thing.

You are right! the first wave of Neolithic farmers were predominantly haplogroup G, other lineages comprised less than 10% including J2, T1a and E. There must have been other waves of settlers from Asia minor between 5000 BC and early bronze age that carried predominantly HGs J2, E, T. Its this wave that makes todays majority J2, T, E lineages in Southern europe. So EEFs were G2a, later farmers were J2, E, T we can call them LEF(Late European Farmers).
 
From what I read there were Gaelic tribes living in Europe during this time?

Well there were HG-R1b in Eastern europe, but not specifically Gaelic tribes, you can call them PIEs though.
 
Well there were HG-R1b in Eastern europe, but not specifically Gaelic tribes, you can call them PIEs though.

No, you can't. We have no idea what they spoke, and probably never will have...
 
Parafarne, absolutly No. You are fabricating data, there is no evidance of T1a as "LEF". We have as evidance of R1b levantine farmers as we have of T1a levantine farmers: None.
As I told, the oldest known T1a1a sample is found in the Wallachian Plain. There is no a J2+E+T beautful travel, most than a J2+E+R1b travel, just fantasy until it become proved.
 
Parafarne, absolutly No. You are fabricating data, there is no evidance of T1a as "LEF". We have as evidance of R1b levantine farmers as we have of T1a levantine farmers: None.
As I told, the oldest known T1a1a sample is found in the Wallachian Plain. There is no a J2+E+T beautful travel, most than a J2+E+R1b travel, just fantasy until it become proved.

Check Neolithic DNA, you will find T, J, E but their percentages are less than 10% so I pointed to this data! and if T, J2, E are not Farmers then when they settled southern europe in your view? please give me a date!
 
Yes, just like you can find I1, R1b, I2, C1a2 and H2 among Neolithic DNA samples. But you just take those what you want. So you can do I1+J2+C1a2 or T+J2+R1b or E+H2+R1b... I think you can do it better.

J2 is found in non-European samples. E1b is found in non-European samples. (but perhaps their european subclades are not).
But I can sure you that T1a1a nor T1a1 nor T1a all of them are not found in non-european samples.

re-READ my first post here again, carefully. You should find the answer to "my view" using the available data, not fabricated.
 
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No, you can't. We have no idea what they spoke, and probably never will have...

I meant racially/ethnically, not linguistically! so were they racially PIEs? or later they became that.
 
I meant racially/ethnically, not linguistically! so were they racially PIEs? or later they became that.
They were neither racially or ethnically IE yet. I think, the beginning of IE happened in Yamnaya. Racially/genetically they were the mixture of 75% of EHG and 25% of Iranian Farmer/CHG. Probably the Western part of Yamnaya had substantial WHG too, and some European Farmer admixture. We have to keep in mind that in 75% EHG is like WHG anyway. Yamnaya culture was very big territorially, and had quite mixed population.
Culturally, they were late neolithic/bronze age horse riding herder/farmer.
 
In this era theres surprisingly so many C lineages too , and others like H, F, too, could Europe have been more cosmopolitan than we like to believe in Mesolithic era, I mean Europe could even chalenge Neareast, Asia for diversity at this era.
 
Who dares? Explaining world historic populations with haplogroups of the same time and era, for example 10,000 BC world population would have been 2 million according to WIKIPEDIA and around 29 million in 3000 BC yet see haplogroups in the same era they would have constituted 1000th of 1 percent of population, Extinction-level events must have occured for every haplogroup in every era which seems so out of question historically think of NOAH'S FLOOD event for every haplogroup I am talking of thousands of extinction events here. Study link below.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_population_estimates
 

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