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Thread: Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

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    Can we not turn this thread into an Illyrian/Alabanian/Macedonian/Greek thread please?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    Good to keep in mind. Do we know if Thracians were putting cremations into tumuli or just burying into tumulia
    Earlier ones used inhumation, later ones, let's say from the 7-8th centuries BC used cremation for the most part. We cannot make these statements with 100% accuracy but let's just say that the vast majority followed that timeline. There are literally thousands of these things all over Thrace (Bulgaria, Western Thrace, Eastern Thrace) and most of them have not been excavated.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post


    The Balkan Iron Age sample from Thracian Bulgaria is very close to Mycenaean I9033 in particular.
    Are these using the Dodecad K7b coordinates?

    By the way, here is the respective Eurogenes K15 PCA. If you want i can also add the Cretan samples for comparison, i just made this quickly. I also include a Eurogenes K15 PCA with modern Greek samples that i saw in Anthrogenica some months ago.




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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post


    The Balkan Iron Age sample from Thracian Bulgaria is very close to Mycenaean I9033 in particular.
    I updated the K15 PCA with additional samples, and also corrected I3313 which pertains to an Iron Age Dalmatian, not Bronze Age.


    As a sidenote, there are many ancient Balkan samples published, as seen in this following figure from
    "The Genomic History of Southeastern Europe" (2018), but i cannot find all of the respective GEDmatch IDs, while for others that are available they seem outdated.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    Can we not turn this thread into an Illyrian/Alabanian/Macedonian/Greek thread please?
    Can you a Greek from Thrace rather post a screenshot of your distance from the Thracian and Mycenaean samples?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dushman View Post
    Can you a Greek from Thrace rather post a screenshot of your distance from the Thracian and Mycenaean samples?
    Where are the Mycenean samples as far as Dodecad K7b are concerned? Which Jovialis post?

    But here is my K36 similarity map:

    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...l=1#post610979

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    Interesting, the Iron Age Greek (I9123) overlaps with modern Greeks from the mainland. It's the only post-Mycenaean sample we have of Ancient Greeks. After the supposed Iron Age migrations and the decline of the Bronze Age world. And the specimen is from Crete no less. An indication that there were different people on the island during that time? Perhaps a recent arrival from the mainland?

    And look at the Bronze Age Bulgarian who overlaps with Ukrainians. It raises question marks. But given that there were some migrations during the Iron Age, and given that the Balkans had genetic variety, I think Classical Greeks may have been somewhat different compared to the Mycenaeans. Or at least, we shouldn't rule out that there may have been more genetic variety among Classical Greeks, than among Bronze Age Greeks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dianatomia View Post
    Interesting, the Iron Age Greek (I9123) overlaps with modern Greeks from the mainland. It's the only post-Mycenaean sample we have of Ancient Greeks. After the supposed Iron Age migrations and the decline of the Bronze Age world. And the specimen is from Crete no less. An indication that there were different people on the island during that time? Perhaps a recent arrival from the mainland?
    Isn't I9123 the so called Crete Armenoi? It's a Bronze Age sample (ca. 1370–1340 BCE), not Iron Age.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Dianatomia View Post
    Interesting, the Iron Age Greek (I9123) overlaps with modern Greeks from the mainland. It's the only post-Mycenaean sample we have of Ancient Greeks. After the supposed Iron Age migrations and the decline of the Bronze Age world. And the specimen is from Crete no less. An indication that there were different people on the island during that time? Perhaps a recent arrival from the mainland?

    And look at the Bronze Age Bulgarian who overlaps with Ukrainians. It raises question marks. But given that there were some migrations during the Iron Age, and given that the Balkans had genetic variety, I think Classical Greeks may have been somewhat different compared to the Mycenaeans. Or at least, we shouldn't rule out that there may have been more genetic variety among Classical Greeks, than among Bronze Age Greeks.
    I9123 (Crete-Armenoi) is LBA not IA mate. Specifically its dated to 1370-1340 BCE. It's also a low quality sample as we have written again in the past, https://twitter.com/iosif_lazaridis/status/892931776372498434. Let's wait for more samples to get a better picture. In any case, i do expect some level of heterogeneity in the future data, but nothing considerable.

    A BA Bulgarian (dated to 1750-1625 BCE) plotting there is nothing out of the normal by the way when we consider the IE migrations largely expanding from the steppe.

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    The Thracian is even closer to Empuries samples than most Southern Italians. I wonder what result would those Classical (Empuries) samples show in Jovialis list. Probaly 3.8 or something.
    As I said before an other sample from Southern Bulgaria plots similar to the Thracian one and it was from Bronze age.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dianatomia View Post
    And the specimen is from Crete no less. An indication that there were different people on the island during that time? Perhaps a recent arrival from the mainland?
    I forgot to answer your question. Crete in general, especially during the BA, must have had a number of different people and languages spoken at the same time parallel to each other, also influencing one another as well. Homer also points to that in his Odyssey, where we read of Heteocretans, Cydonians, Achaeans, Dorians, and Pelasgians all living on the island. Specifically, in Rhapsody/Book 19 and lines 175-177, "There is a fair and fruitful island in mid-ocean called Crete; it is thickly peopled and there are ninety cities in it: the people speak many different languages which overlap one another, for there are Achæans, brave Eteocretans, Dorians of three-fold race, and noble Pelasgi. There is a great town there, Cnossus, where Minos reigned who every nine years had a conference with Jove himself.". As a side note, Cydonians are mentioned in another passage. While in the case of Dorians, it's probably a Homeric anachronism. Aside of that, i presume there were more than the aforementioned people present on the island, due to the island's geostrategic importance for trade facilitation.

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    @Jovialis, does I8215 (NE_Iberia_Greek (Empúries2)) have a GEDmatch kit number? If not, can we create one by using the file from ENA, https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/browser/view/SAMEA5229461? It would be interesting to test what @ihype02 mentioned. There are five samples from Empúries making the Aegean BA cluster (Empúries2), but I8215 is the one plotting the closest to the modern Sicilian, southern Italian, and Greek clusters. It also happens to be the oldest of the five, dated to 400-350 BCE.

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    How well are the common people represented in ancient genetics? Are we just testing the elite and then generalizing about the farmers and the shepherds and the artisans? We know for sure that the Mycenaeans were bigger (taller and sturdier) than the common folk. Was there a stratification between the warrior class and the commoners? Were the commoners perhaps Pelasgians?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    @Jovialis, does I8215 (NE_Iberia_Greek (Empúries2)) have a GEDmatch kit number? If not, can we create one by using the file from ENA, https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/browser/view/SAMEA5229461? It would be interesting to test what @ihype02 mentioned. There are five samples from Empúries making the Aegean BA cluster (Empúries2), but I8215 is the one plotting the closest to the modern Sicilian, southern Italian, and Greek clusters. It also happens to be the oldest of the five, dated to 400-350 BCE.
    Mycenaean:I9041 is closer to Sicilians.
    Mycenaean:I9006 and Mycenaean:I9033 are really close to the Thracian.
    And the Mycenean left shifts towards Minoans.

    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...378#post613378

    Palermo Trapani in post 113 is only a bit closer to I9006 and I9033 than to Bulgaria_IA.


    PCAs are not meant to be taken 100% literally on a microscopic level. On an other academic PCA with lots of South Italians samples shows Myceneans as Sicilian-like population running towards Minoans and not overlapping with Sicilians, but still very close though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    Mycenaean:I9041 is closer to Sicilians.
    Mycenaean:I9006 and Mycenaean:I9033 are really close to the Thracian.
    And the Mycenean left shifts towards Minoans.
    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...378#post613378
    Palermo Trapani in post 113 is only a bit closer to I9006 and I9033 than to Bulgaria_IA.
    PCAs are not meant to be taken 100% literally on a microscopic level. On an other academic PCA with lots of South Italians samples shows Myceneans as Sicilian-like population running towards Minoans and not overlapping with Sicilians, but still very close though.
    I9006 along with I9010 are the ones furthest from the IA Thracian sample (I5769) both in the Dodecad K7b distance per population shared above by @Jovialis and the Eurogenes K15 PCA shared by me. I9033 and I9041 (along with the I9123 - Crete Armenoi) are plotting the closest to the IA Thracian sample. Anyway, i was referring to the Iberian samples from Empúries and more specifically to I8215. I would be interested to analyze it more.

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    Sorry Demetrios I mixed those samples. Two of those samples are really close to Thracians one of those is really close to Minoans.
    I wonder from which region this Minoan shifted Mycenean comes from? Is the I9006 the Minoan-like one?
    I8215 Empuries Greek settler - kit number FM5677291
    One of the two Empuries is even closer than the 4 Mycenaeans samples are.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    How well are the common people represented in ancient genetics? Are we just testing the elite and then generalizing about the farmers and the shepherds and the artisans? We know for sure that the Mycenaeans were bigger (taller and sturdier) than the common folk. Was there a stratification between the warrior class and the commoners? Were the commoners perhaps Pelasgians?
    Regarding the first question. In the case of our paper, and more specifically in the case of the Mycenaean samples, we are informed of the following in the Supplementary Information (pages 5-13). Specifically:

    The chamber tombs at APATHEIA
    I9010 = Mycenaean - Galatas Apatheia Peloponnese
    I9041 = Mycenaean - Galatas Apatheia Peloponnese
    Relevant quote: "
    Those tombs held the burials of ordinary people, judging by the few, common-type furnishings of the deceased." (page 6)

    The chamber tombs at SALAMINA
    I9006 = Mycenaean - Agia Kyriaki Salamis
    Relevant quote: "
    In addition to a large number of clay vessels, the furnishings of the deceased included faience jewelry and some objects of bronze, indicating that the individuals buried in that tomb were wealthier than the average people, although they may not be viewed as members of a ruling elite, judging by the absence of any prestige items in the grave offerings." (page 7)

    Mycenaean cemetery of the Peristeria citadel in Trifylia
    I9033 = Mycenaean - Peristeria Tryfilia Peloponnese
    Relevant quote: "
    The finds from the Peristeria tombs reveal that the deceased belonged to the ruling class." (page 12)

    So, there is variety (from a social point of view) among the published samples. Nonetheless, it's always good to have a larger sample size, but in the case of ancient samples that's not always a possibility. Aside of the ancient remains being more limited altogether, there is also the aspect of quality, with many remains of ancient people lacking a number of alleles, rendering their analysis either difficult, deficient, or impossible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    Sorry Demetrios I mixed those samples. Two of those samples are really close to Thracians one of those is really close to Minoans.
    I wonder from which region this Minoan shifted Mycenean comes from? Is the I9006 the Minoan-like one?
    I8215 Empuries Greek settler - kit number FM5677291
    One of the two Empuries is even closer than the 4 Mycenaeans samples are.
    No worries.

    It's actually I9010 that has more drift towards the Neolithic sample of Diros (I2937) and some Minoan samples over some of the Mycenaean. I9006 is also a mixed case.

    Distance to: I9010_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Pelopo nnese
    6.26202843 I2937_Greece_Neolithic_Diros_Alepotrypa_Cave
    7.95907658 I9129_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_C rete
    8.15601005 I9041_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Pelopo nnese
    9.45752610 I9033_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Peristeria_Tryfilia_Pel oponnese
    10.21212025 I9130_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_C rete
    10.60008491 I9128_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_C rete
    10.66426744 I9127_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_C rete
    12.68671746 I0071_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_La sithi_Crete
    12.75754679 I0074_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_La sithi_Crete
    14.19720395 I9006_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Agia_Kyriaki_Salamis
    15.85362419 I0070_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_La sithi_Crete
    16.10267680 I9005_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_La sithi_Crete
    16.14108423 I9123_Bronze_Age_Armenoi_Crete
    16.39047894 I0073_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_La sithi_Crete
    21.05229916 I9131_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_C rete
    22.11357049 I2495_Bronze_Age_Anatolian_Harmanӧren-GӧndürleHӧyük_Isparta
    23.91900082 I2499_Bronze_Age_Anatolian_Harmanӧren-GӧndürleHӧyük_Isparta
    28.02748472 I2683_Bronze_Age_Anatolian_Harmanӧren-GӧndürleHӧyük_Isparta

    Distance to: I9006_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Agia_Kyriaki_Salamis
    7.18185909 I9041_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Pelopo nnese
    8.62114842 I0071_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_La sithi_Crete
    9.39226277 I2495_Bronze_Age_Anatolian_Harmanӧren-GӧndürleHӧyük_Isparta
    10.14442704 I9130_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_C rete
    10.62912038 I0074_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_La sithi_Crete
    10.66738018 I2499_Bronze_Age_Anatolian_Harmanӧren-GӧndürleHӧyük_Isparta
    11.41716252 I0073_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_La sithi_Crete
    13.08549579 I9127_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_C rete
    13.45636652 I9033_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Peristeria_Tryfilia_Pel oponnese
    13.71475118 I0070_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_La sithi_Crete
    14.09673012 I9005_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_La sithi_Crete
    14.19720395 I9010_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Pelopo nnese
    14.40315590 I9131_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_C rete
    15.78482499 I2683_Bronze_Age_Anatolian_Harmanӧren-GӧndürleHӧyük_Isparta
    16.02519579 I9129_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_C rete
    16.81129382 I2937_Greece_Neolithic_Diros_Alepotrypa_Cave
    17.89619513 I9123_Bronze_Age_Armenoi_Crete
    22.85718705 I9128_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_C rete

    Also, it turns out that per Dodecad K7b the I8215 - NE_Iberia_Greek (Empúries2) sample doesn't have any greater drift towards the IA Thracian sample. It has a similar distance as the Crete-Armenoi sample.

    Distance to: Balkans_IronAge:I5769_Bulgaria_IA
    4.12739627 I9033_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Peristeria_Tryfilia_Pel oponnese
    5.78120230 I9041_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Pelopo nnese
    7.09888724 I9123_Bronze_Age_Armenoi_Crete
    7.12860435 I8215-NE_Iberia_Greek(Empúries2)
    10.01396026 I9010_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Pelopo nnese
    11.92437000 I9006_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Agia_Kyriaki_Salamis
    15.62154282 I9130_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_C rete
    15.91051225 I2937_Greece_Neolithic_Diros_Alepotrypa_Cave
    16.51574400 I0071_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_La sithi_Crete
    17.05560612 I9129_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_C rete
    17.64191033 I9127_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_C rete
    17.75222803 I0074_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_La sithi_Crete
    20.31903541 I9128_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_C rete
    20.48286113 I0073_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_La sithi_Crete
    21.19864147 I2495_Bronze_Age_Anatolian_Harmanӧren-GӧndürleHӧyük_Isparta
    21.41230020 I0070_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_La sithi_Crete
    21.77132518 I9005_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_La sithi_Crete
    22.45279047 I2499_Bronze_Age_Anatolian_Harmanӧren-GӧndürleHӧyük_Isparta
    24.64989452 I9131_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_C rete
    27.62258315 I2683_Bronze_Age_Anatolian_Harmanӧren-GӧndürleHӧyük_Isparta

    Here it is as TARGET also, having the closest distance to I9041.

    Distance to: I8215-NE_Iberia_Greek(Empúries2)
    1.46092436 I9041_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Pelopo nnese
    5.84780301 I9006_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Agia_Kyriaki_Salamis
    7.12860435 Balkans_IronAge:I5769_Bulgaria_IA
    8.33842911 I9033_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Peristeria_Tryfilia_Pel oponnese
    8.87579856 I9010_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Pelopo nnese
    9.29045747 I9130_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_C rete
    9.58825323 I0071_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_La sithi_Crete
    11.05199529 I0074_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_La sithi_Crete
    11.81064774 I9127_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_C rete
    12.81245488 I2937_Greece_Neolithic_Diros_Alepotrypa_Cave
    12.91400403 I9129_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_C rete
    13.46186466 I0073_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_La sithi_Crete
    14.00087854 I9123_Bronze_Age_Armenoi_Crete
    14.70148292 I0070_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_La sithi_Crete
    14.85835792 I2495_Bronze_Age_Anatolian_Harmanӧren-GӧndürleHӧyük_Isparta
    15.05638071 I9005_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_La sithi_Crete
    16.38226480 I2499_Bronze_Age_Anatolian_Harmanӧren-GӧndürleHӧyük_Isparta
    17.55694449 I9131_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_C rete
    18.59957526 I9128_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_C rete
    21.21154167 I2683_Bronze_Age_Anatolian_Harmanӧren-GӧndürleHӧyük_Isparta

    But per the Eurogenes K15 PCA it appears very slightly closer to the IA Thracian sample.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    No worries.

    It's actually I9010 that has more drift towards the Neolithic sample of Diros (I2937) and some Minoan samples over some of the Mycenaean. I9006 is also a mixed case.

    Distance to: I9010_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Pelopo nnese
    6.26202843 I2937_Greece_Neolithic_Diros_Alepotrypa_Cave
    7.95907658 I9129_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_C rete
    8.15601005 I9041_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Pelopo nnese
    9.45752610 I9033_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Peristeria_Tryfilia_Pel oponnese
    10.21212025 I9130_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_C rete
    10.60008491 I9128_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_C rete
    10.66426744 I9127_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_C rete
    12.68671746 I0071_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_La sithi_Crete
    12.75754679 I0074_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_La sithi_Crete
    14.19720395 I9006_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Agia_Kyriaki_Salamis
    15.85362419 I0070_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_La sithi_Crete
    16.10267680 I9005_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_La sithi_Crete
    16.14108423 I9123_Bronze_Age_Armenoi_Crete
    16.39047894 I0073_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_La sithi_Crete
    21.05229916 I9131_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_C rete
    22.11357049 I2495_Bronze_Age_Anatolian_Harmanӧren-GӧndürleHӧyük_Isparta
    23.91900082 I2499_Bronze_Age_Anatolian_Harmanӧren-GӧndürleHӧyük_Isparta
    28.02748472 I2683_Bronze_Age_Anatolian_Harmanӧren-GӧndürleHӧyük_Isparta

    Distance to: I9006_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Agia_Kyriaki_Salamis
    7.18185909 I9041_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Pelopo nnese
    8.62114842 I0071_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_La sithi_Crete
    9.39226277 I2495_Bronze_Age_Anatolian_Harmanӧren-GӧndürleHӧyük_Isparta
    10.14442704 I9130_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_C rete
    10.62912038 I0074_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_La sithi_Crete
    10.66738018 I2499_Bronze_Age_Anatolian_Harmanӧren-GӧndürleHӧyük_Isparta
    11.41716252 I0073_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_La sithi_Crete
    13.08549579 I9127_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_C rete
    13.45636652 I9033_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Peristeria_Tryfilia_Pel oponnese
    13.71475118 I0070_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_La sithi_Crete
    14.09673012 I9005_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_La sithi_Crete
    14.19720395 I9010_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Pelopo nnese
    14.40315590 I9131_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_C rete
    15.78482499 I2683_Bronze_Age_Anatolian_Harmanӧren-GӧndürleHӧyük_Isparta
    16.02519579 I9129_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_C rete
    16.81129382 I2937_Greece_Neolithic_Diros_Alepotrypa_Cave
    17.89619513 I9123_Bronze_Age_Armenoi_Crete
    22.85718705 I9128_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_C rete

    Also, it turns out that per Dodecad K7b the I8215 - NE_Iberia_Greek (Empúries2) sample doesn't have any greater drift towards the IA Thracian sample. It has a similar distance as the Crete-Armenoi sample.

    Distance to: Balkans_IronAge:I5769_Bulgaria_IA
    4.12739627 I9033_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Peristeria_Tryfilia_Pel oponnese
    5.78120230 I9041_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Pelopo nnese
    7.09888724 I9123_Bronze_Age_Armenoi_Crete
    7.12860435 I8215-NE_Iberia_Greek(Empúries2)
    10.01396026 I9010_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Pelopo nnese
    11.92437000 I9006_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Agia_Kyriaki_Salamis
    15.62154282 I9130_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_C rete
    15.91051225 I2937_Greece_Neolithic_Diros_Alepotrypa_Cave
    16.51574400 I0071_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_La sithi_Crete
    17.05560612 I9129_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_C rete
    17.64191033 I9127_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_C rete
    17.75222803 I0074_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_La sithi_Crete
    20.31903541 I9128_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_C rete
    20.48286113 I0073_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_La sithi_Crete
    21.19864147 I2495_Bronze_Age_Anatolian_Harmanӧren-GӧndürleHӧyük_Isparta
    21.41230020 I0070_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_La sithi_Crete
    21.77132518 I9005_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_La sithi_Crete
    22.45279047 I2499_Bronze_Age_Anatolian_Harmanӧren-GӧndürleHӧyük_Isparta
    24.64989452 I9131_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_C rete
    27.62258315 I2683_Bronze_Age_Anatolian_Harmanӧren-GӧndürleHӧyük_Isparta

    Here it is as TARGET also, having the closest distance to I9041.

    Distance to: I8215-NE_Iberia_Greek(Empúries2)
    1.46092436 I9041_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Pelopo nnese
    5.84780301 I9006_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Agia_Kyriaki_Salamis
    7.12860435 Balkans_IronAge:I5769_Bulgaria_IA
    8.33842911 I9033_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Peristeria_Tryfilia_Pel oponnese
    8.87579856 I9010_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Pelopo nnese
    9.29045747 I9130_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_C rete
    9.58825323 I0071_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_La sithi_Crete
    11.05199529 I0074_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_La sithi_Crete
    11.81064774 I9127_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_C rete
    12.81245488 I2937_Greece_Neolithic_Diros_Alepotrypa_Cave
    12.91400403 I9129_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_C rete
    13.46186466 I0073_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_La sithi_Crete
    14.00087854 I9123_Bronze_Age_Armenoi_Crete
    14.70148292 I0070_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_La sithi_Crete
    14.85835792 I2495_Bronze_Age_Anatolian_Harmanӧren-GӧndürleHӧyük_Isparta
    15.05638071 I9005_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_La sithi_Crete
    16.38226480 I2499_Bronze_Age_Anatolian_Harmanӧren-GӧndürleHӧyük_Isparta
    17.55694449 I9131_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_C rete
    18.59957526 I9128_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_C rete
    21.21154167 I2683_Bronze_Age_Anatolian_Harmanӧren-GӧndürleHӧyük_Isparta

    But per the Eurogenes K15 PCA it appears very slightly closer to the IA Thracian sample.


    Great data

    Can you place sample R1 into the above................I would like to see how close it is from I3313 sample
    Fathers mtdna ... T2b17
    Grandfather mtdna ... T1a1e
    Sons mtdna ... K1a4
    Mum paternal line ... R1b-S8172
    Grandmum paternal side ... I1-Y33791
    Wife paternal line ... R1a-Z282

  20. #2495
    Regular Member Demetrios's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    Great data

    Can you place sample R1 into the above................I would like to see how close it is from I3313 sample
    Do you mean I3499 (Vucedol) dated to 2884-2666 BCE, with Y-DNA R1b-Z2103? I would, but it falls in the category of those samples with outdated or deleted GEDmatch kits. For example the kit number i have, namely JM8436604, doesn't load and gives me the message "ERROR: Kit number |JM8436604| not found.".

  21. #2496
    Regular Member ihype02's Avatar
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    I am looking foward the other Empuries. There are two of them. I will post the kit number when I find it.

  22. #2497
    Regular Member Demetrios's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    I am looking foward the other Empuries. There are two of them. I will post the kit number when I find it.
    Great, i would like to add them as well. One of the two NE_Iberia_RomP (Empúries2), i believe I8216, is pretty much sub-clustering with the prior (I8215) sample i shared. Again, there are a total of five samples that make the Aegean BA (Empúries2) cluster. Specifically:
    I8215 - NE_Iberia_Greek (Empúries2)
    I8205 - NE_Iberia_Hel (Empúries2)
    I8208 - NE_Iberia_Hel (Empúries2)
    I8216 - NE_Iberia_RomP (Empúries2)
    I8338 - NE_Iberia_RomP (Empúries2)
    I don't think all of them have a GEDmatch kit number, but whatever you find will be appreciated.

  23. #2498
    Regular Member torzio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    Do you mean I3499 (Vucedol) dated to 2884-2666 BCE, with Y-DNA R1b-Z2103? I would, but it falls in the category of those samples with outdated or deleted GEDmatch kits. For example the kit number i have, namely JM8436604, doesn't load and gives me the message "ERROR: Kit number |JM8436604| not found.".
    no, I meant this one

    R1, proto-Villanovan, 930 - 839 calBCE


    Though sample I4332 , the bronze-age Dalmatian is closer than the other Dalmatians to myself

  24. #2499
    Regular Member Demetrios's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    no, I meant this one

    R1, proto-Villanovan, 930 - 839 calBCE


    Though sample I4332 , the bronze-age Dalmatian is closer than the other Dalmatians to myself
    I see. Are you aware of its Eurogenes K15 coordinates or GEDmatch kit number because i cannot find anything relevant? From a quick search, i see that @Jovialis (here) was planning to share it after you asked for it some 9 months ago. Do you recall if it was published later in the thread?

  25. #2500
    Regular Member ihype02's Avatar
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Davidskis new samples:

    From this study:
    https://www.pnas.org/content/111/25/9211

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