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Thread: Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

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    I found this article, and honestly, I think it has some inaccurate information in it:


    Although “White” Supremacists like to be antisemitic, here is something Hitler would have hated: Ancient Greeks were genetically as close to Ancient Levantines as they were to the so called “Aryans”. It just happened that Ancient Greeks spoke an Indo-European language while Ancient Levantines spoke a Semitic one. Ancient Greeks, it turns out, have an Anatolian origin (and Levantines are mostly Anatolian and Iranian). This was shown in recent paper, Lazaridis et al. (2017) who looked at Bronze Age and modern Greeks. And modern Greeks descend mostly from Bronze Age Greeks. In other words, if you want to see how ancient Greeks looked like, go no further than your local diner in Astoria, Queens.

    https://medium.com/east-med-project-history-philology-and-genetics/something-nordic-supremacists-will-not-like-44d99e8a4188
    I don't understand, people who are so-called "Aryans", i.e. Northern Europeans, also have Anatolian and Iranian (CHG) in them, by way of Anatolian Neolithic Farmers, and CHG via Yamnaya ancestry. Also, he is not mentioning the fact that Ancient Levantines also have a lot of Natufian-like ancestry, which is not found in Ancient Greeks. Moreover, Ancient Greeks, are further distinguished by their Steppe component. I saw on Twitter that he said that J1 was found among the Myceaneans, but this was corrected by Lazaridis himself, who stated it was actually found among one of the SW Anatolians.

    The Ancient Greeks were Southern Europeans. Period.
    Last edited by Jovialis; 22-02-21 at 04:24.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    I found this article, and honestly, I think it has some inaccurate information in it:




    I don't understand, people who are so-called "Aryans", i.e. Northern Europeans, also have of Anatolian and Iranian (CHG) in them, by way of Anatolian Neolithic Farmers, and CHG via Yamnaya ancestry. Also, he is not mentioning the fact that Ancient Levantines also have a lot of Natufian-like ancestry, which is not found in Ancient Greeks. Moreover, Ancient Greeks, are further distinguished by their Steppe component. I saw on Twitter that he said that J1 was found among the Myceaneans, but this was corrected by Lazaridis himself, who stated it was actually found among one of the SW Anatolians.

    The Ancient Greeks were Southern Europeans. Period.
    Consider the fact that Yamnaya is 40% CHG in this model. You could say so-call "Aryans", like the English, have a lot of Anatolian and Iranian (CHG) in them too.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    I found this article, and honestly, I think it has some inaccurate information in it:




    I don't understand, people who are so-called "Aryans", i.e. Northern Europeans, also have of Anatolian and Iranian (CHG) in them, by way of Anatolian Neolithic Farmers, and CHG via Yamnaya ancestry. Also, he is not mentioning the fact that Ancient Levantines also have a lot of Natufian-like ancestry, which is not found in Ancient Greeks. Moreover, Ancient Greeks, are further distinguished by their Steppe component. I saw on Twitter that he said that J1 was found among the Myceaneans, but this was corrected by Lazaridis himself, who stated it was actually found among one of the SW Anatolians.

    The Ancient Greeks were Southern Europeans. Period.
    I couldn't agree more. You've hit all the reasons why he's wrong. It's a toss up whether he doesn't understand the genetics or is just deliberately ignoring it. Everybody in Europe has ancestry from Anatolian farmers, and everybody in Europe has ancestry from CHG, who are just Iran Neo with a little EHG added. The only thing that changes is the percentages.

    He's considered, at least by himself, a prominent "public intellectual". :) The problem, and what makes him controversial, is that a lot of his opinions spring from his emotional reaction living as an "Arab" in what he considers a "Nordic/White" dominant world. He's just another Middle Easterner who wants to claim Greeks for his own ethnicity, no different from the Germans who wanted to do the same.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I couldn't agree more. You've hit all the reasons why he's wrong. It's a toss up whether he doesn't understand the genetics or is just deliberately ignoring it. Everybody in Europe has ancestry from Anatolian farmers, and everybody in Europe has ancestry from CHG, who are just Iran Neo with a little EHG added. The only thing that changes is the percentages.

    He's considered, at least by himself, a prominent "public intellectual". :) The problem, and what makes him controversial, is that a lot of his opinions spring from his emotional reaction living as an "Arab" in what he considers a "Nordic/White" dominant world. He's just another Middle Easterner who wants to claim Greeks for his own ethnicity, no different from the Germans who wanted to do the same.
    Absolutely, that is what I get from it as well. I think it is a combination of ignorance, and perhaps willfully ignoring parts that he doesn't like.

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    ^^also, I whole heartedly agree that this is just another case of an outside group trying to lay claim to the legacy of the Ancient Greeks. Nevertheless the truth is in the facts, no matter how people try to shoehorn their way into it. Under all the sophistry, the truth always lies in wait.
    Last edited by Jovialis; 22-02-21 at 04:24.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Consider the fact that Yamnaya is 40% CHG in this model. You could say so-call "Aryans", like the English, have a lot of Anatolian and Iranian (CHG) in them too.

    The interesting part is the Anatolian origin of the Greeks. I guess I am not the only one who sees this obvious connection.


    https://medium.com/east-med-project-...e-44d99e8a4188


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    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    The interesting part is the Anatolian origin of the Greeks. I guess I am not the only one who sees this obvious connection.


    https://medium.com/east-med-project-...e-44d99e8a4188


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    Nassim Taleb is a polemicist, not a geneticist. He doesn't want the Lebanese to be "Arabs" so he makes incorrect claims about the amount of J1 in Lebanon, a claim which Haber had to correct.

    He wants to claim the Greeks so he makes claims about how "Anatolian" they are, as if having Anatolian ancestry in Europe is a rarity or a surprise to anyone. Indeed, I'm shocked that it's a surprise to "you".

    Did you look at the graph? It came out in 2015. Where have you been Blevin? The Spanish are heavy in Anatolian, as are Italians, and the Southern French, and Albanians like you, as a subset of Greek,s are just as high in it as Greeks. Even the English and the Germans are about 40% Anatolian in that graph. Then you can add in all the CHG.

    So, I fail to see what point you're making.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Nassim Taleb is a polemicist, not a geneticist. He doesn't want the Lebanese to be "Arabs" so he makes incorrect claims about the amount of J1 in Lebanon, a claim which Haber had to correct.

    He wants to claim the Greeks so he makes claims about how "Anatolian" they are, as if having Anatolian ancestry in Europe is a rarity or a surprise to anyone. Indeed, I'm shocked that it's a surprise to "you".

    Did you look at the graph? It came out in 2015. Where have you been Blevin? The Spanish are heavy in Anatolian, as are Italians, and the Southern French, and Albanians like you, as a subset of Greek,s are just as high in it as Greeks. Even the English and the Germans are about 40% Anatolian in that graph. Then you can add in all the CHG.

    So, I fail to see what point you're making.
    Yeah, I don't know either. I am not sure why he is linking an article by Nassim Taleb, that is refuted here by using logic, and evidence.

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    Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Nassim Taleb is a polemicist, not a geneticist. He doesn't want the Lebanese to be "Arabs" so he makes incorrect claims about the amount of J1 in Lebanon, a claim which Haber had to correct.

    He wants to claim the Greeks so he makes claims about how "Anatolian" they are, as if having Anatolian ancestry in Europe is a rarity or a surprise to anyone. Indeed, I'm shocked that it's a surprise to "you".

    Did you look at the graph? It came out in 2015. Where have you been Blevin? The Spanish are heavy in Anatolian, as are Italians, and the Southern French, and Albanians like you, as a subset of Greek,s are just as high in it as Greeks. Even the English and the Germans are about 40% Anatolian in that graph. Then you can add in all the CHG.

    So, I fail to see what point you're making.
    I thought there is.a difference between

    “Ancient Greeks, it turns out, have an Anatolian origin” as stated by Taleb,

    And “having Anatolian ancestry” like you are saying. Obviously there were people that came from Anatolia so we all have Anatolian ancestry, but I hope you are not suggesting that English or German have an Anatolian Origin.

    My point remains the same in this thread from is very beginning.

    Anatolian route of the Mycenaean.


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    There is nothing to suggest that pre-proto-Greek (the IE component of the Greek language) came via Anatolia, as has been extensively discussed in this very same thread months ago. Then again Blevins continues to support this dogmatically thinking that if pre-proto-Greeks came via Anatolia, then this somehow nullifies the proto-Greek homeland in northwestern Greece, but it actually does no such thing, because regardless of the route the proto-Greek homeland remains the same. Furthermore, the genetic evidence suggests that the Indo-European component of the Greeks came via the north (not the east), namely from a population that the paper of this thread describes as Europe_LNBA. From the Supplementary Information (Section 2; page 47): "However, we do notice that the model 79%Minoan_Lasithi+21%Europe_LNBA tends to share more drift with Mycenaeans (at the |Z|>2 level). Europe_LNBA is a diverse group of steppe-admixed Late Neolithic/Bronze Age individuals from mainland Europe, and we think that the further study of areas to the north of Greece might identify a surrogate for this admixture event – if, indeed, the Minoan_Lasithi+Europe_LNBA model represents the true history.". Aside of this, studies have shown that the steppe component that is present in Mycenaeans (not the same as proto-Greeks; more like proto-Arcadocypriots) lacks from contemporary Anatolian populations, a fact that negates the so-called Anatolian route and even has ramifications for the broader PIE discussion.

    The English and German have partial Anatolian autosomal ancestry (same as origin), just like the Greeks and many other European do. Taleb doesn't make any assertion about the route of the pre-proto-Greek (IE) same way he doesn't make any assertion about the route of the Semitic language spoken by the supposedly related (and non-Arab) Levantines when he describes their ancestry as mostly Anatolian and Iranian (CHG).
    Plus, the Anatolian autosomal component mentioned by Taleb isn't the source of the IE pre-proto-Greek; the steppe autosomal component is which interestingly isn't mentioned at all by Taleb, yet it was one of the main points presented by the study. Furthermore, even Taleb's deficient autosomal reference is problematic as correctly explained above by Angela and Jovialis.

    Sidenote: Linguistically Greek isn't only IE, but has a pre-IE component as well. Here is a very interesting
    answer by a historical linguist in Quora.

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    Excuse me OZZIE, but we do not tolerate racism here. Nice try:


    A strawman sockpuppet (sometimes abbreviated as strawpuppet) is a false flag pseudonym created to make a particular point of view look foolish or unwholesome in order to generate negative sentiment against it. Strawman sockpuppets typically behave in an unintelligent, uninformed, or bigoted manner and advance "straw man" arguments that their puppeteers can easily refute. The intended effect is to discredit more rational arguments made for the same position.[12] Such sockpuppets behave in a similar manner to Internet trolls.


    A particular case is the concern troll, a false flag pseudonym created by a user whose actual point of view is opposed to the one that the sockpuppet claims to hold. The concern troll posts in Web forums devoted to its declared point of view and attempts to sway the group's actions or opinions while claiming to share their goals, but with professed "concerns". The goal is to sow fear, uncertainty and doubt (FUD) within the group.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    ^^also, I whole heartedly agree that this is just another case of an outside group trying to lay claim to the legacy of the Ancient Greeks. Nevertheless the truth is in the facts, no matter how people try to shoehorn their way into it. Under all the sophistry, the truth always lies in wait.
    still, some of the points he is making are true. especially this:"So, if white supremacists want to claim a genetic link to ancient civilizations in order to get some “lettres de noblesse” and improve the “European” pedigree, they need another route. They would either need to abandon their link to Western Civilization or abandon their antisemitism. You, simply, cannot have both."

    the ancient greeks did also resemble bronze age levant more than steppe. saying that is not really laying claim on greeks.

    saying that the distance between lebanese and greeks is minimal and much closer compared to the non-levantine arab speakers is probably wrong but why should this be laying claim on greeks? it's more likely he just doesn't want to be associated with other people from the arab league. the wording he is using seems a bit hypocritcal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailchu View Post
    still, some of the points he is making are true. especially this:"So, if white supremacists want to claim a genetic link to ancient civilizations in order to get some “lettres de noblesse” and improve the “European” pedigree, they need another route. They would either need to abandon their link to Western Civilization or abandon their antisemitism. You, simply, cannot have both."

    the ancient greeks did also resemble bronze age levant more than steppe. saying that is not really laying claim on greeks.

    saying that the distance between lebanese and greeks is minimal and much closer compared to the non-levantine arab speakers is probably wrong but why should this be laying claim on greeks? it's more likely he just doesn't want to be associated with other people from the arab league. the wording he is using seems a bit hypocritcal.
    Ancient Greeks closer resemble Anatolian_N (a population source unto itself, and probably close to Paleo-Caucasians/Dzudzuana; the core of West Eurasian Ancestry), Anatolian_BA and Europe_LNBA, and most of all they resemble modern Southern Italian and Southern Greeks. I don't understand why they need to be compared to the Steppe or the Levant in the first place, unless someone is trying to lay claim to them. The canard that they are similar to Nordics, or Levantines are equally false, and obviously political.
    Last edited by Jovialis; 22-02-21 at 23:29.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    There is nothing to suggest that pre-proto-Greek (the IE component of the Greek language) came via Anatolia, as has been extensively discussed in this very same thread months ago. Then again Blevins continues to support this dogmatically thinking that if pre-proto-Greeks came via Anatolia, then this somehow nullifies the proto-Greek homeland in northwestern Greece, but it actually does no such thing, because regardless of the route the proto-Greek homeland remains the same. Furthermore, the genetic evidence suggests that the Indo-European component of the Greeks came via the north (not the east), namely from a population that the paper of this thread describes as Europe_LNBA. From the Supplementary Information (Section 2; page 47): "However, we do notice that the model 79%Minoan_Lasithi+21%Europe_LNBA tends to share more drift with Mycenaeans (at the |Z|>2 level). Europe_LNBA is a diverse group of steppe-admixed Late Neolithic/Bronze Age individuals from mainland Europe, and we think that the further study of areas to the north of Greece might identify a surrogate for this admixture event – if, indeed, the Minoan_Lasithi+Europe_LNBA model represents the true history.". Aside of this, studies have shown that the steppe component that is present in Mycenaeans (not the same as proto-Greeks; more like proto-Arcadocypriots) lacks from contemporary Anatolian populations, a fact that negates the so-called Anatolian route and even has ramifications for the broader PIE discussion.

    The English and German have partial Anatolian autosomal ancestry (same as origin), just like the Greeks and many other European do. Taleb doesn't make any assertion about the route of the pre-proto-Greek (IE) same way he doesn't make any assertion about the route of the Semitic language spoken by the supposedly related (and non-Arab) Levantines when he describes their ancestry as mostly Anatolian and Iranian (CHG).
    Plus, the Anatolian autosomal component mentioned by Taleb isn't the source of the IE pre-proto-Greek; the steppe autosomal component is which interestingly isn't mentioned at all by Taleb, yet it was one of the main points presented by the study. Furthermore, even Taleb's deficient autosomal reference is problematic as correctly explained above by Angela and Jovialis.

    Sidenote: Linguistically Greek isn't only IE, but has a pre-IE component as well. Here is a very interesting
    answer by a historical linguist in Quora.
    You are repeating same arguments of 2 years ago. Anything new? Here we are discussing origin of Mycenaean not hypothetical homeland of proto-greeks.


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    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    You are repeating same arguments of 2 years ago. Anything new? Here we are discussing origin of Mycenaean not hypothetical homeland of proto-greeks.


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    You are the one who brought up your hypothesis of the Anatolian route for Greek, which in this context pertains to pre-proto-Greek (IE component of Greek), not even proto-Greek. I am only repeating myself because you keep repeating yourself against the genetic evidence, and besides that you tried using Taleb's article to back up your views even though you hardly understood what he wrote and what he didn't write, as was explained above by me and Angela. Furthermore, proto-Greeks and Mycenaeans are not the same, but they are interrelated. You cannot have the latter without the former. Then again there are even some people who keep equating the two, in total ignorance of Greek dialectogenesis, and claim that Mycenaeans came from Anatolia. Did Aeolic-speakers and Doric-speakers also came from Anatolia? Because Mycenaean is classified as part of a "Southern" linguistic group and the other two as part of a "Northern"; both under the Greek branch. Meaning divergence between the two groups must have happened in the proto-Greek region and before the Mycenaean civilization began.

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    @Alichu, also Steppe is merely a component of European genetics. The Anatolian_N component is just as relevant to Europe, which I already have pointed out Ancient Greeks are closest too. They certainly are not close to Natufian, which accounts for 50% of Levantine_BA; of which the Ancient Greeks have approximately 0% of.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    @Alichu, also Steppe is merely a component of European genetics. The Anatolian_N component is just as relevant to Europe, which I already have pointed out Ancient Greeks are closest too. They certainly are not close to Natufian, which accounts for 50% of Levantine_BA; of which the Ancient Greeks have approximately 0% of.

    Don't forget the quote that relates, "Other proposed migrations, such as settlement by Egyptian or Phoenician colonists are not discernible in our data, as there is no measurable Levantine or African influence in the Minoans and Myceneans, thus rejecting the hypothesis that the cultures of the Aegean were seeded by migrants from the old civilizations of these regions.".

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    Taleb is trying to say that the Mycenaeans shared ancestry with people of the Middle East, and didn't share ancestry with "Nordics", or at least shared less ancestry with Nordics than with people from the Middle East.

    First, "of course" they shared ancestry with "Nordics", by which he means Northern Europeans. Just look at the graph above: all Northern Europeans have some component of LBK, which is extremely similar to Anatolian Neolithic farmers, and that was the largest component in the Mycenaeans. All Northern Europeans also have some percentage of CHG, which is like Iran Neo with some EHG. That Iran Neo was a minor component in the Mycenaeans. Finally, the Northern Europeans have EHG/WHG, which the Mycenaeans also had through their steppe ancestry.

    Now, somebody could do some exercise on modern Turks or Lebanese if Taleb prefers. What they would find is some Anatolian Neo, but much less than in Mycenaeans. They'd find Iran Neo, more than in Mycenaeans. They'd find Levant Neo in the case of the Lebanese, which the Mycenaeans wouldn't have except as an ancestral part of Anatolian Neolithic. They'd find no EHG. That could then be compared to the Mycenaean numbers and the Northern European numbers.

    I don't know what it would show; maybe the Mycenaeans would share more genes with the Lebanese, maybe not.

    What does it matter?

    The Mycenaeans were their own unique blend of genes, with their own culture, drawing from both the Near East and the steppe. It's not for either the Nazis of old or Middle Easterners of today to try to claim them or their accomplishments. Neither is it for people in the Balkans to try to claim because some minor percent of their ancestry might have come from Anatolian Bronze Age that means they're Near Easterners and not "pure" Europeans like other peoples of the Balkans. It's particularly ridiculous for Albanians to claim that because they're a subset of Greeks and as such have that ancestry as well, as do other people in the Balkans like Romanians and people in Italy.

    I've been in this "hobby" for more than 12 years and throughout all that time internet t-rolls of the "Nordic" or "Slavic" persuasion, and Middle Easterners have been pulling the ancient Greeks and Romans between them, each trying to claim them and their accomplishments. It's got to stop. The Near East is the beginning of Western Civilization; there's an enormous amount of which to be proud if your aim is to be proud of your ancestors. There's no need to try to claim the accomplishments of ancient Greece and Rome, which were their own cultures, building something new based on what they learned from the east.

    For that matter there was no need for the Germans of the 19th century and the first half of the 20th century to try and claim Rome's greatness. In the last few centuries they also contributed a great deal to the world. As others have noted, I don't see them involved in these kinds of cultural appropriation today. It mostly comes from Eastern Europe. Maybe, given their history, it's more understandable, but it has to stop, and they have to stop their fanatic and insane anti-semitism from coloring everything they study. It also has to stop among Near Easterners. It's nice to be admired, but their culture was not yours even if it was influenced by your ancestors.

    I get Taleb's point about anti-Semitism and how it is tied to a lot of internet chatter about the modern Greeks and Italians, but the answer isn't to make claims that are based on a faulty understanding of genetics.
    Last edited by Angela; 23-02-21 at 02:22.

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    Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Taleb is trying to say that the Mycenaeans shared ancestry with people of the Middle East, and didn't share ancestry with "Nordics", or at least shared less ancestry with Nordics than with people from the Middle East.

    First, "of course" they shared ancestry with "Nordics", by which he means Northern Europeans. Just look at the graph above: all Northern Europeans have some component of LBK, which is extremely similar to Anatolian Neolithic farmers, and that was the largest component in the Mycenaeans. All Northern Europeans also have some percentage of CHG, which is like Iran Neo with some EHG. That Iran Neo was a minor component in the Mycenaeans. Finally, the Northern Europeans have EHG/WHG, which the Mycenaeans also had through their steppe ancestry.

    Now, somebody could do some exercise on modern Turks or Lebanese if Taleb prefers. What they would find is some Anatolian Neo, but much less than in Mycenaeans. They'd find Iran Neo, more than in Mycenaeans. They'd find Levant Neo in the case of the Lebanese, which the Mycenaeans wouldn't have except as an ancestral part of Anatolian Neolithic. They'd find no EHG. That could then be compared to the Mycenaean numbers and the Northern European numbers.

    I don't know what it would show; maybe the Mycenaeans would share more genes with the Lebanese, maybe not.

    What does it matter?

    The Mycenaeans were their own unique blend of genes, with their own culture, drawing from both the Near East and the steppe. It's not for either the Nazis of old or Middle Easterners of today to try to claim them or their accomplishments. Neither is it for people in the Balkans to try to claim because some minor percent of their ancestry might have come from Anatolian Bronze Age that means they're Near Easterners and not "pure" Europeans like other peoples of the Balkans. It's particularly ridiculous for Albanians to claim that because they're a subset of Greeks and as such have that ancestry as well, as do other people in the Balkans like Romanians and people in Italy.

    I've been in this "hobby" for more than 12 years and throughout all that time internet t-rolls of the "Nordic" or "Slavic" persuasion, and Middle Easterners have been pulling the ancient Greeks and Romans between them, each trying to claim them and their accomplishments. It's got to stop. The Near East is the beginning of Western Civilization; there's an enormous amount of which to be proud if your aim is to be proud of your ancestors. There's no need to try to claim the accomplishments of ancient Greece and Rome, which were their own cultures, building something new based on what they learned from the east.

    For that matter there was no need for the Germans of the 19th century and the first half of the 20th century to try and claim Rome's greatness. In the last few centuries they also contributed a great deal to the world. As others have noted, I don't see them involved in these kinds of cultural appropriation today. It mostly comes from Eastern Europe. Maybe, given their history, it's more understandable, but it has to stop, and they have to stop their fanatic and insane anti-semitism from coloring everything they study. It also has to stop among Near Easterners. It's nice to be admired, but their culture was not yours even if it was influenced by your ancestors.

    I get Taleb's point about anti-Semitism and how it is tied to a lot of internet chatter about the modern Greeks and Italians, but the answer isn't to make claims that are based on a faulty understanding of genetics.
    In case you are referring to me, I claim nothing from Greeks/Mycenaeans. I see Mycenaeans, with the evidence presented so far, coming from Anatolia. I see Albanians coming from Danubian Basin during Bronze Age collapse.
    So far I have not seen any evidence that contradicts this. What t-roll are you talking about? In case you have evidence of what I am saying ir wrong, go ahead and show it? I am curious to read it. And what do you mean by Albanians are a subset of Greeks?


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    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    And what do you mean by Albanians are a subset of Greeks?
    It's true, just like the Dutch are a subset of white Americans.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    You are the one who brought up your hypothesis of the Anatolian route for Greek, which in this context pertains to pre-proto-Greek (IE component of Greek), not even proto-Greek. I am only repeating myself because you keep repeating yourself against the genetic evidence, and besides that you tried using Taleb's article to back up your views even though you hardly understood what he wrote and what he didn't write, as was explained above by me and Angela. Furthermore, proto-Greeks and Mycenaeans are not the same, but they are interrelated. You cannot have the latter without the former. Then again there are even some people who keep equating the two, in total ignorance of Greek dialectogenesis, and claim that Mycenaeans came from Anatolia. Did Aeolic-speakers and Doric-speakers also came from Anatolia? Because Mycenaean is classified as part of a "Southern" linguistic group and the other two as part of a "Northern"; both under the Greek branch. Meaning divergence between the two groups must have happened in the proto-Greek region and before the Mycenaean civilization began.
    Beside linguist “evidence” that is often used but unable to form final conclusions, It seems there isn’t any new evidence. We still remain at this point :
    “Two key questions remain to be addressed by future studies. First, when did the common ‘eastern’ ancestry of both Minoans and Mycenaeans arrive in the Aegean? Second, is the ‘northern’ ancestry in Mycenaeans due to sporadic infiltration of Greece, or to a rapid migration as in Central Europe? Such a migration would support the idea that proto-Greek speakers formed the southern wing of a steppe intrusion of Indo-European speakers. Yet, the absence of ‘northern’ ancestry in the Bronze Age samples from Pisidia, where Indo-European languages were attested in antiquity, casts doubt on this genetic– linguistic association, with further sampling of ancient Anatolian speakers needed.”


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    Quote Originally Posted by Çerç View Post
    It's true, just like the Dutch are a subset of white Americans.
    No that is a false equivalency.

    "White American" is a broad classification that includes all of Europe, North Africa and the Middle East.

    Greeks and Albanians for the most part overlap with one another, and have a similar genetic source population composition.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    Beside linguist “evidence” that is often used but unable to form final conclusions, It seems there isn’t any new evidence. We still remain at this point :
    “Two key questions remain to be addressed by future studies. First, when did the common ‘eastern’ ancestry of both Minoans and Mycenaeans arrive in the Aegean? Second, is the ‘northern’ ancestry in Mycenaeans due to sporadic infiltration of Greece, or to a rapid migration as in Central Europe? Such a migration would support the idea that proto-Greek speakers formed the southern wing of a steppe intrusion of Indo-European speakers. Yet, the absence of ‘northern’ ancestry in the Bronze Age samples from Pisidia, where Indo-European languages were attested in antiquity, casts doubt on this genetic– linguistic association, with further sampling of ancient Anatolian speakers needed.”


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    Linguistics are just as important in forming conclusions, as genetics and archaeology are, and in fact they all compliment each other. That's why interdisciplinary analysis is crucial in these kind of questions. As for the rest, thanks for quoting the paper Blevins, i am aware of all that as well. But please, read what i had written in the past in terms of the first question, here and here. As you can see, the paper might be leaving an open question, but it sure does point to certain indications. And besides, that Anatolian Neolithic and "eastern" (CHG/Iran-related) ancestry was inherited by both the IE Mycenaeans and the seemingly pre-IE Minoans, thus it is unrelated to the pre-proto-Greek migration. The ancestry that is related to the pre-proto-Greek migration is the steppe one (associated with the Europe_LNBA according to the paper), and this certainly came from the north, not the east which lacks it (that's what the last sentence you cited pertains to; in accordance with the results of other papers which have studied ancient Anatolia).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I couldn't agree more. You've hit all the reasons why he's wrong. It's a toss up whether he doesn't understand the genetics or is just deliberately ignoring it. Everybody in Europe has ancestry from Anatolian farmers, and everybody in Europe has ancestry from CHG, who are just Iran Neo with a little EHG added. The only thing that changes is the percentages.

    He's considered, at least by himself, a prominent "public intellectual". :) The problem, and what makes him controversial, is that a lot of his opinions spring from his emotional reaction living as an "Arab" in what he considers a "Nordic/White" dominant world. He's just another Middle Easterner who wants to claim Greeks for his own ethnicity, no different from the Germans who wanted to do the same.
    Genetics could have been used to eliminate any racist behavior, but it has been effectively manipulated by some knuckleheads to continue discriminating people (before by the color of their skin, now by their autosomal ancestry percentages). in this way, many rednecks, especially Americans are still fighting to prove that the more steppe ancestry a population has, the whiter or more Aryan you are. The Basques (and Spaniards in general) have been for centuries specialists in talking about clean blood, we expelled the Jews and the Moors, and that obsession for the purity of the race has caused injustices, discrimination, terrorism and all kinds of misery. Now it turns out that the Sardinians and the Basques have good percentages of EEfarmers (with Levantine origin) and WHgs (swarthy people with blue eyes) so the Basque ultranationalists do not have many arguments to separate us genetically from the rest of Spaniards and Europeans. Many racist behaviors would disappear if European genetics were properly explained in schools.

    But equally objectionable are the Levantinists and Africanists who have the same objectives as the white supremacists. We Spaniards have never had a good relationship with the Jews or the Moors and we never will because we are very different, despite sharing Levantine ancestors. There are many aspects that influence besides skin color, there are also religious beliefs, social behavior, moral values and the way of understanding life.

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    The Near East is the beginning of Western Civilization ?????

    Greek philosophy, Roman law and Christian religion are the pillars of Western civilization and were born precisely in opposition to Semitic beliefs. Levantine/Jewish genetics have absolutely nothing to do with it. If you go back in time, western megalithic culture and BB culture are our genetic roots and have nothing to do with Levantines or Africans either.

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