Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

[Ailchu]

@Alichu, also Steppe is merely a component of European genetics. The Anatolian_N component is just as relevant to Europe, which I already have pointed out Ancient Greeks are closest too. They certainly are not close to Natufian, which accounts for 50% of Levantine_BA; of which the Ancient Greeks have approximately 0% of.

Greeks are Greeks. it think it is wrong to start grouping them together with other people based on genetics and this is what the white supremacists Taleb is talking about constantly do for example by saying they belong to a european/white genetic group. and here it is necessary to point out the similarities that exist between populations they think are superior(for example BA-steppe) and compare them with the similarities with populations they think are inferior. saying that greeks are close to Natufians was never the point imo.

[Jovialis]

Greeks are Greeks. it think it is wrong to start grouping them together with other people based on genetics and this is what the white supremacists Taleb is talking about constantly do for example by saying they belong to a european/white genetic group. and here it is necessary to point out the similarities that exist between populations they think are superior(for example BA-steppe) and compare them with the similarities with populations they think are inferior. saying that greeks are close to Natufians was never the point imo.

Hold on, you're talking out of both sides of your mouth now:

still, some of the points he is making are true. especially this:"So, if white supremacists want to claim a genetic link to ancient civilizations in order to get some “lettres de noblesse” and improve the “European” pedigree, they need another route. They would either need to abandon their link to Western Civilization or abandon their antisemitism. You, simply, cannot have both."

the ancient greeks did also resemble bronze age levant more than steppe. saying that is not really laying claim on greeks.

saying that the distance between lebanese and greeks is minimal and much closer compared to the non-levantine arab speakers is probably wrong but why should this be laying claim on greeks? it's more likely he just doesn't want to be associated with other people from the arab league. the wording he is using seems a bit hypocritcal.

You're the one that is trying to say they are closer to one or the other. I am merely correcting you, by saying they are closest to Anatolian_N, a source population. Again, Steppe is merely a component of Europe, it is also a component of non-Europeans. Anatolian_N is important to both Europeans, and Non-europeans too.


Of course Greeks are Greeks, in fact all of those supremacists of future eras (White and Brown) probably read the old writings from them, which is why they have an inferiority complex, and seek to emulate them. After all, the Ancient Greeks considered themselves to be superior, and considered outsiders to be Barbarian/half-animals (sub-human), who should be enslaved.

[Çerç]

Greeks and Albanians for the most part overlap with one another, and have a similar genetic source population composition.

So do the Dutch and White Americans.

[Jovialis]

So do the Dutch and White Americans.

Here is my full comment

No that is a false equivalency.

"White American" is a broad classification that includes all of Europe, North Africa and the Middle East.

Greeks and Albanians for the most part overlap with one another, and have a similar genetic source population composition.

Albanians and Greeks are far more similar than people from these far reaching areas.

[blevins13]

No that is a false equivalency.

"White American" is a broad classification that includes all of Europe, North Africa and the Middle East.

Greeks and Albanians for the most part overlap with one another, and have a similar genetic source population composition.

So a subset mean overlap?


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[Jovialis]

So a subset mean overlap?


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I'm not an expert in these semantics. What I do know is that they are extremely similar in terms of genetic affinity from what I have seen. From genetic calculators, and genetic studies. I know that Albanians, like Greeks can be modeled with a significant amount Anatolian_BA. They share a lot of the same ancient migrations. Major differences in language, religion, or culture between Southern Italians, and Greeks does not mean they aren't genetically similar, and share ancestors. The same is the case for Albanians, and Greeks.

[Jovialis]

Balkanization has truly poisoned the minds and spirits of many in the region, you guys have more in common than you think. Forget about the hatred, and learn to get along with one another.

[kingjohn]

I'm not an expert in these semantics. What I do know is that they are extremely similar in terms of genetic affinity from what I have seen. From genetic calculators, and genetic studies. I know that Albanians, like Greeks can be modeled with a significant amount Anatolian_BA. They share a lot of the same ancient migrations. Major differences in language, religion, or culture between Southern Italians, and Greeks does not mean they aren't genetically similar, and share ancestors. The same is the case for Albanians, and Greeks.

And albanians and tuscans do they show
Some overlapp autosomaly speaking ?

[Çerç]

Of course Albanians and Greeks are genetically similar, this is clear. This similarity partially comes from similar BA, Neolithic, or even older sources of ancestry, while in good part it is the genetic legacy of Medieval Albanian settlements in today's Greece.

In a very similar way, Dutch people may seem to be part of the American spectrum if placed on a PCA together, but we know the similarity between would be due to both populations having similar ancestry sources, as well as due to Dutch contribution through migration to today's American genetics (of course more limited than the Albanian, and other more "northern" Balkan influx into Greek genetics).

So historically, labelling Albanians as "a subset of Greeks", (partially) by virtue of the originally Albanian component in today's Greeks, makes as much sense as claiming Dutch are a subset of Americans.

[Jovialis]

And albanians and tuscans do they show
Some overlapp autosomaly speaking ?

Tuscans and Albanians have comparable source population rates, but they became that way due to different migration events in history and pre-history.

Of course, there is no Slavic admixture in Tuscans.

[Jovialis]

Of course Albanians and Greeks are genetically similar, this is clear. This similarity partially comes from similar BA, Neolithic, or even older sources of ancestry, while in good part it is the genetic legacy of Medieval Albanian settlements in today's Greece.

In a very similar way, Dutch people may seem to be part of the American spectrum if placed on a PCA together, but we know the similarity between would be due to both populations having similar ancestry sources, as well as due to Dutch contribution through migration to today's American genetics (of course more limited than the Albanian, and other more "northern" Balkan influx into Greek genetics).

So historically, labelling Albanians as "a subset of Greeks", (partially) by virtue of the originally Albanian component in today's Greeks, makes as much sense as claiming Dutch are a subset of Americans.

That is not what the study suggests:

Modern Greeks resemble the Mycenaeans, but with some additional dilution of the Early Neolithic ancestry. Our results support the idea of continuity but not isolation in the history of populations of the Aegean, before and after the time of its earliest civilizations.

You are inflating the contribution that those medieval populations may or may not have had. If anything, I think Albanians were more like Ancient Greeks, while being augmented by northern contributions in Late Antiquity, and the Middle Ages.

[Demetrios]

Of course Albanians and Greeks are genetically similar, this is clear. This similarity partially comes from similar BA, Neolithic, or even older sources of ancestry, while in good part it is the genetic legacy of Medieval Albanian settlements in today's Greece.

In a very similar way, Dutch people may seem to be part of the American spectrum if placed on a PCA together, but we know the similarity between would be due to both populations having similar ancestry sources, as well as due to Dutch contribution through migration to today's American genetics (of course more limited than the Albanian, and other more "northern" Balkan influx into Greek genetics).

So historically, labelling Albanians as "a subset of Greeks", (partially) by virtue of the originally Albanian component in today's Greeks, makes as much sense as claiming Dutch are a subset of Americans.

I agree with Jovialis. The medieval Albanian settlement of Greece is quite overestimated by some, especially when certain information is taken out of context. Censuses from the 1800s which focused on southern Greece (that had by far the largest concentration of Arvanites) narrows it down to some 10% of the total population. If anything the medieval Slavic influence was probably more significant both for Greece and Albania, in detaching them from the "Mediterranean genetic continuum". From "Ancient and recent admixture layers in Sicily and Southern Italy trace multiple migration routes along the Mediterranean", "Population expansions during the Middle Ages, for instance those related to the Slavic migrations, could have affected Albania and Continental Greece at least indirectly as a result of subsequent population contacts. We may therefore hypothesize that present-day mainland Greek and Southern Balkan populations detached from a genetic background originally shared with the ‘Mediterranean genetic continuum’ (i.e. Southern Italy and the Mediterranean Greek-islands) after these recent events which interested the Balkan Peninsula in historical times.".

[blevins13]

Balkanization has truly poisoned the minds and spirits of many in the region, you guys have more in common than you think. Forget about the hatred, and learn to get along with one another.

Where do you see hate here. Here we discuss genetic evidence. Here Angela said that both Albanian and Greek share sources of the same population, namely Anatolian source, and Albanians in this senario become a subset o Greece. This looks kind of “abracadabra” logic to me.


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[Jovialis]

Where do you see hate here. Here we discuss genetic evidence. Here Angela said that both Albanian and Greek share sources of the same population, namely Anatolian source, and Albanians in this senario become a subset o Greece. This looks kind of “abracadabra” logic to me.


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I'm not accusing you of hate, it was a general statement.

[blevins13]

I agree with Jovialis. The medieval Albanian settlement of Greece is quite overestimated by some, especially when certain information is taken out of context. Censuses from the 1800s which focused on southern Greece (that had by far the largest concentration of Arvanites) narrows it down to some 10% of the total population. If anything the medieval Slavic influence was probably more significant both for Greece and Albania, in detaching them from the "Mediterranean genetic continuum". From "Ancient and recent admixture layers in Sicily and Southern Italy trace multiple migration routes along the Mediterranean", "Population expansions during the Middle Ages, for instance those related to the Slavic migrations, could have affected Albania and Continental Greece at least indirectly as a result of subsequent population contacts. We may therefore hypothesize that present-day mainland Greek and Southern Balkan populations detached from a genetic background originally shared with the ‘Mediterranean genetic continuum’ (i.e. Southern Italy and the Mediterranean Greek-islands) after these recent events which interested the Balkan Peninsula in historical times.".

So in your case we have a direct or indirect impact of the Slavic migrations.


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[Çerç]

That is not what the study suggests:

Modern Greeks resemble the Mycenaeans, but with some additional dilution of the Early Neolithic ancestry. Our results support the idea of continuity but not isolation in the history of populations of the Aegean, before and after the time of its earliest civilizations.

You are inflating the contribution that those medieval populations may or may not have had. If anything, I think Albanians were more like Ancient Greeks, while being augmented by northern contributions in Late Antiquity, and the Middle Ages.

That quote is completely irrelevant to what I said since Albanians are similar to Myceneans too (check figure 2 of the same paper). An influx of Albanians in the Middle Ages would not disrupt that finding. This should be especially clear if you believe Albanians are a "subset of Greeks".

I am not inflating anything. I did not even give numbers, because we do not know with certainty yet. I only said some similarity is from Albanian settlements in the Middle Ages, and some from older sources of ancestry. We don't know how much of each.

I agree with Jovialis. The medieval Albanian settlement of Greece is quite overestimated by some, especially when certain information is taken out of context. Censuses from the 1800s which focused on southern Greece (that had by far the largest concentration of Arvanites) narrows it down to some 10% of the total population.

Using 19th century censuses to evaluate the extent of Medieval migrations, while 15th and 16th cent. registers are available, is ridiculous.

If anything the medieval Slavic influence was probably more significant both for Greece and Albania, in detaching them from the "Mediterranean genetic continuum". From "Ancient and recent admixture layers in Sicily and Southern Italy trace multiple migration routes along the Mediterranean", "Population expansions during the Middle Ages, for instance those related to the Slavic migrations, could have affected Albania and Continental Greece at least indirectly as a result of subsequent population contacts. We may therefore hypothesize that present-day mainland Greek and Southern Balkan populations detached from a genetic background originally shared with the ‘Mediterranean genetic continuum’ (i.e. Southern Italy and the Mediterranean Greek-islands) after these recent events which interested the Balkan Peninsula in historical times.".

Of course both peoples had a Slavic influx. This does not negate the Medieval Albanian genetic contribution in continental Greeks.

The same paper states:
"FineSTRUCTURE results reconnect virtually all the individuals from Albanian and Kosovo, as well as the major part of individuals from mainland Greek populations, to a Southern-Balkan specific cluster (cyan in Fig. 3), which is almost completely absent in Greek-speaking islands and Southern Italy (except for Calabrian Arbereshe), instead showing relatively more similarity with Northern Italian populations."

Later they also say they cluster close to Eastern European populations. Of course that can be explained with the Slavic and other expansions of the Age of Migrations. However the similarity to Northern Italy cannot be explained by Slavic expansion alone.

Furthermore, if this distinction between continental Greece and the Mediterranean genetic continuum was solely a consequence of Slavic expansion, there would have been no need for them to conceptualize the Southern-Balkan genetic component. After all, they also had a North-Central Balkan component, which clearly they saw as distinct from the Southern-Balkan one. This is further supported by their finding that other Balkan populations are even closer to Eastern European ones, meaning the Southern-Balkan component cannot be solely Slavic.

"Furthermore, we observed that both Calabrian and Apulian Greeks from Southern Italy almost completely lack the ‘Southern Balkan’ genetic component detected in Continental Greece and Albania, as well as in the Arbereshe. In both cases, this is consistent with the fact that their arrival in Southern Italy should at least predate those population processes associated to the more recent (i.e. late medieval) differentiation of continental Greek and Southern Balkan groups (cf. paragraph below)."

So from this paper it is clear that there is a strong Southern Balkan genetic component found in modern continental Greeks, but lacking in islander Greeks and South Italy. This component appeared not earlier than the Middle Ages (maybe Late Middle Ages?), is distinct from the North-Central Balkan cluster, and has partial similarity to Eastern Europe and to Northern Italy. Can you think of any population that may have brought the non-Slavic part (similar to Northern Italy) of this genetic component to Greece in the Middle Ages?

[blevins13]

I'm not an expert in these semantics. What I do know is that they are extremely similar in terms of genetic affinity from what I have seen. From genetic calculators, and genetic studies. I know that Albanians, like Greeks can be modeled with a significant amount Anatolian_BA. They share a lot of the same ancient migrations. Major differences in language, religion, or culture between Southern Italians, and Greeks does not mean they aren't genetically similar, and share ancestors. The same is the case for Albanians, and Greeks.

So you don’t understand the difference between subset and overlap. This is revealing. I agree about Anatolian_BA, but that does not make neither Albanian subset of the Anatolians nor of the Greeks.


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[Jovialis]

So you don’t understand the difference between subset and overlap. This is revealing. I agree about Anatolian_BA, but that does not make neither Albanian subset of the Anatolians nor of the Greeks.


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Of course I understand the difference, what is revealing is your hard headed comprehension of what I am saying. I advise you to watch yourself here.

[Jovialis]

That quote is completely irrelevant to what I said since Albanians are similar to Myceneans too (check figure 2 of the same paper). An influx of Albanians in the Middle Ages would not disrupt that finding. This should be especially clear if you believe Albanians are a "subset of Greeks".

I am not inflating anything. I did not even give numbers, because we do not know with certainty yet. I only said some similarity is from Albanian settlements in the Middle Ages, and some from older sources of ancestry. We don't know how much of each.




Using 19th century censuses to evaluate the extent of Medieval migrations, while 15th and 16th cent. registers are available, is ridiculous.



Of course both peoples had a Slavic influx. This does not negate the Medieval Albanian genetic contribution in continental Greeks.

The same paper states:
"FineSTRUCTURE results reconnect virtually all the individuals from Albanian and Kosovo, as well as the major part of individuals from mainland Greek populations, to a Southern-Balkan specific cluster (cyan in Fig. 3), which is almost completely absent in Greek-speaking islands and Southern Italy (except for Calabrian Arbereshe), instead showing relatively more similarity with Northern Italian populations."

Later they also say they cluster close to Eastern European populations. Of course that can be explained with the Slavic and other expansions of the Age of Migrations. However the similarity to Northern Italy cannot be explained by Slavic expansion alone.

Furthermore, if this distinction between continental Greece and the Mediterranean genetic continuum was solely a consequence of Slavic expansion, there would have been no need for them to conceptualize the Southern-Balkan genetic component. After all, they also had a North-Central Balkan component, which clearly they saw as distinct from the Southern-Balkan one. This is further supported by their finding that other Balkan populations are even closer to Eastern European ones, meaning the Southern-Balkan component cannot be solely Slavic.

"Furthermore, we observed that both Calabrian and Apulian Greeks from Southern Italy almost completely lack the ‘Southern Balkan’ genetic component detected in Continental Greece and Albania, as well as in the Arbereshe. In both cases, this is consistent with the fact that their arrival in Southern Italy should at least predate those population processes associated to the more recent (i.e. late medieval) differentiation of continental Greek and Southern Balkan groups (cf. paragraph below)."

So from this paper it is clear that there is a strong Southern Balkan genetic component found in modern continental Greeks, but lacking in islander Greeks and South Italy. This component appeared not earlier than the Middle Ages (maybe Late Middle Ages?), is distinct from the North-Central Balkan cluster, and has partial similarity to Eastern Europe and to Northern Italy. Can you think of any population that may have brought the non-Slavic part (similar to Northern Italy) of this genetic component to Greece in the Middle Ages?

Yes, Albanians have an affinity to Myceneans too, nobody is denying that. Albeit less of an affinity, than Southern Greeks and Southern Italians. But a relatively strong one nonetheless.


Northern Balkan BA groups have shown a relative similarity to Northern Italian BA groups, based on calculators I have seen.


What is completely irrelevant is this rabbit hole we are going into here about Albanian genetics, and the dynamic of the middle ages. Nobody reading this thread that is not Albanian cares, I assure you. This is a thread about the Genetic origins of the Minions and Myceneans. If you want to discuss other topics, begin another thread.

[Demetrios]

No it's not ridiculous, quite the opposite. Because 15th century censuses don't take into account the subsequent migrations into places such as southern Italy and a number of Greek islands, some decades later.

But i am not negating the medieval Albanian contribution to continental Greeks, i am just stating that it is overestimated. Furthermore, the "Southern Balkan" genetic component actually pertains to a cluster, and its differentiation has more to do with the fact that mainland Greeks and Albanians are palaeo-Balkan populations (hence the reference to the detachment from the "Mediterranean genetic continuum") and seem to share a similar Slavic contribution. Also, the so-called "late medieval" differentiation mentioned by the paper, doesn't only pertain to the continental Greeks, but also to the rest of the southern Balkan groups (as mentioned by the paper), meaning you cannot use Albanians as a source population for this event. There is a reason that the paper mentions Slavic migrations. Last, "late medieval" aside, if you look closely at the "Recent events and times of admixture" section, it shows the "Southern Balkan" cluster's times of admixture prior of 1000 CE, meaning many centuries prior of the Albanian migrations to southern Greece. The reason southern Italy and the Greek-speaking islands are not part of the "Southern Balkan" cluster is because they weren't affected as much by the medieval Slavic migrations, and this is also hinted at the quote i shared above.

The "North-Central Balkan" group is seen as a different cluster, hence it is differentiated from the "Southern Balkan" group. Also, if you see the Supplementary Information, it is included in the admixture models that gave the aforementioned times of admixture.

[Angela]

And albanians and tuscans do they show
Some overlapp autosomaly speaking ?

I would refer you to Jovialis' comment and would just add that Albanians and Tuscans plot "close" to one another but do not overlap. Albanians are to the east of Tuscans; that is due to Slavic ancestry. That's the major difference.

[Angela]

I would refer you to Jovialis' comment and would just add that Albanians and Tuscans plot "close" to one another but do not overlap. Albanians are to the east of Tuscans; that is due to Slavic ancestry. That's the major difference.

Perhaps I should add that I've never seen an academic study which shows overlap between those two groups.

I have, however, seen amateur postings on peripheral sites like quora which places Tuscans in the same "Circle" as Greeks and Kosovars. It's ridiculous. The latter two descend partly from Slavs and the former emphatically do not, carrying "western" not "eastern" ancestry. It's particularly ridiculous given that, if I recall correctly, the Tuscans even in that graph don't overlap with Kosovars or Greeks and are merely "near" them.

That's even without taking into account that PCAs take into account only two dimensions, and a small percent of total genetic variation.

It's the same nonsense of trying to claim people, and perhaps their accomplishments, who have nothing to do with the Balkans and/or Slavic ancestry.

As to Greeks versus Albanians, I can't at the moment find the link to the graphic but one exists showing Albanian genomes as a circle falling within the broader large spectrum of Greek genetic variation. The Albanians are very near Thessalians.

THAT SAYS NOTHING ABOUT HOW THAT HAPPENED, so it has nothing to do with your unending wars about who moved where when.

If people don't understand the difference between those two things they have no business discussing genetics.

[kingjohn]

I only asked jovialis
I get the message they do not overlapp
Lets move on

[Jovialis]

Perhaps I should add that I've never seen an academic study which shows overlap between those two groups.
I have, however, seen amateur postings on peripheral sites like quora which places Tuscans in the same "Circle" as Greeks and Kosovars. It's ridiculous. The latter two descend partly from Slavs and the former emphatically do not, carrying "western" not "eastern" ancestry. It's particularly ridiculous given that, if I recall correctly, the Tuscans even in that graph don't overlap with Kosovars or Greeks and are merely "near" them.

That's even without taking into account that PCAs take into account only two dimensions, and a small percent of total genetic variation.

It's the same nonsense of trying to claim people, and perhaps their accomplishments, who have nothing to do with the Balkans and/or Slavic ancestry.

As to Greeks versus Albanians, I can't at the moment find the link to the graphic but one showing Albanian genomes falling within the broader spectrum of Greek genetic variation. They are very near Thessalians.

THAT SAYS NOTHING ABOUT HOW THAT HAPPENED, so it has nothing to do with your unending wars about who moved where when.

If people don't understand the difference between those two things they have no business discussing genetics.

Indeed, Tuscans do not overlap with Albanians, they are to the "west" of them genetically.

[Angela]

I only asked jovialis
I get the message they do not overlapp
Lets move on

Excuse me, but are you suggesting that posters aren't allowed to respond to a question which isn't directed specifically at them?

I know of no such rule.

Also, perhaps I'm wrong, but I detect a slight hostility here. I get it all the time from some of our Albanian members, but I don't understand why I should get it from you.

Enough said. Let's indeed move on.