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Sicilians are not included. Sicilians are the closests to Myceaneans from modern populations according to an other PCA similar to this but it didn't have Thracians, thus I choosed this one.They seem very far even from south Italians. Aren't Sicilians included? I have seen PCAs where they all cluster together.
Crete Armenoi is from a later period than the Myceneaens, so I originally thought perhaps it was just the result of later admixture culture wide. I no longer believe that's the case. I then thought perhaps it was just an outlier, the product of some individual admixture with a mate from elsewhere.
However, given the bad quality of the sample I'm really not drawing any conclusions from it, and sort of ignoring my own match with it, even though it's my best using the K12b.
5.96067110 I9123_Bronze_Age_Armenoi_Crete 5.96285167 I8475_NE_Iberia_RomP_atypical 6.06036303 I3313_Balkans_BronzeAge 6.16793320 R1285_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria 6.20598904 R1287_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria 6.36315173 Szolad43
Fwiw, it doesn't even show up in my top 50 matches on mta, so I don't know what's going on there. Every other good match I get on K12b shows up there, usually with closer distance.
We should realize that we have in total 6 samples from pre-classical Balkans. And we are too eager to discard two samples which are close to the modern populations. In particular mainland Greeks. Two out of six samples can not be discarded.
If people further North were close to the Thracians, then waves may have migrated South and influenced the population. Crete_Armenoi may be an example of the migration of people further North who ventured South into Mycenaean Greece. Perhaps we should compare Crete_Armenoi to the Thracian.
Sicilians are not included. Sicilians are the closests to Myceaneans from modern populations according to an other PCA similar to this but it didn't have Thracians, thus I choosed this one.
IMO this ones looks better, look at Illyrians, they plot closer to Spaniards in the other PCA.
We should realize that we have in total 6 samples from pre-classical Balkans. And we are too eager to discard two samples which are close to the modern populations. In particular mainland Greeks. Two out of six samples can not be discarded.
If people further North were close to the Thracians, then waves may have migrated South and influenced the population. Crete_Armenoi may be an example of the migration of people further North who ventured South into Mycenaean Greece. Perhaps we should compare Crete_Armenoi to the Thracian.
Two samples? That's only one.We should realize that we have in total 6 samples from pre-classical Balkans. And we are too eager to discard two samples which are close to the modern populations. In particular mainland Greeks. Two out of six samples can not be discarded.
If people further North were close to the Thracians, then waves may have migrated South and influenced the population. Crete_Armenoi may be an example of the migration of people further North who ventured South into Mycenaean Greece. Perhaps we should compare Crete_Armenoi to the Thracian.
Doric was the most conservative of the ancient Greek dialects, and is thus the one more akin to proto-Greek. Mycenaean (as attested on the Linear B tablets) on the other hand was an early form of Arcadocypriot, and could thus be designated as proto-Arcadocypriot. Furthermore, autosomal profiles don't equate linguistics of which we currently know more of, rendering respective classifications safe. In any case, we are observing minor autosomal differences between Mycenaeans and Thracians, and i foresee Doric samples to be somewhere in between complementing geographical distribution.or the Dorians who replaced the mycenaeans where a proto-thracian group
Bulgaria_IA is a Thracians.
Ihype, do you know how many reference Southern Italian samples G25 has? Do these dots represent the whole set? Are they all Calabrians from a certain paper or is it a mix of Southern Italian people who volunteered to be part of the Eurogenes project? If this is all he has for Italy, and he has many more samples, relatively, for eastern and northern and central Europe, this PCA map is going to be totally off.
Also, what's the sample number of the Iron Age Moldovan?
As is clear from both this and the K15 PCA, there was variation among the Myceneaens, with one sample quite a bit closer to modern southern Italians and probably especially Sicilians, who would fill the space in between.
Is there any reason why the Sicilians weren't included in this sample set?
As to the classical Greek sample from Spain, how do we know he was from mainland Greece? He could have been an Islander Greek or the coast of Asia Minor, yes?
Angela, here two PCA including Sicilians as well as Empuries:
As for Empuries, it was founded in Spain by the ancient Greeks colonists coming from Ionia, Phocea in particular. But Phocaea was not originally an Ionic colony it was founded by Phocis from mainland Greece.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phocis_(ancient_region)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phocaea
The ancient Greek geographer Pausanias says that Phocaea was founded by Phocians under Athenian leadership, on land given to them by the Aeolian Cymaeans, and that they were admitted into the Ionian League after accepting as kings the line of Codrus.[5] Pottery remains indicate Aeolian presence as late as the 9th century BC, and Ionian presence as early as the end of the 9th century BC. From this an approximate date of settlement for Phocaea can be inferred.[6]
The Bronze Collapse affected the islands too it is just that the main center of the Myceanean civilisation were in the mainland so it looks more drastic there. Keep in your mind that Crete was Dorian in the Classical antiquity.
Angela, here two PCA including Sicilians as well as Empuries:
As for Empuries, it was founded in Spain by the ancient Greeks colonists coming from Ionia, Phocea in particular. But Phocaea was not originally an Ionic colony it was founded by Phocis from mainland Greece.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phocis_(ancient_region)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phocaea
The ancient Greek geographer Pausanias says that Phocaea was founded by Phocians under Athenian leadership, on land given to them by the Aeolian Cymaeans, and that they were admitted into the Ionian League after accepting as kings the line of Codrus.[5] Pottery remains indicate Aeolian presence as late as the 9th century BC, and Ionian presence as early as the end of the 9th century BC. From this an approximate date of settlement for Phocaea can be inferred.[6]
The Bronze Collapse affected the islands too it is just that the main center of the Myceanean civilisation were in the mainland so it looks more drastic there. Keep in your mind that Crete was Dorian in the Classical antiquity.
Thank you but I did not make the PCA. I found it in Anthrogenica. I don't know who the author this.Thanks, I appreciate you including the Sicilian samples in the PCA plot.
Thank you but I did not make the PCA. I found it in Anthrogenica. I don't know who the author this.
IBD analysis is tricky because inheritance is so random. I'm not saying it's not useful, because it is, but it's just part of the picture. It's reliability would depend on who is doing it, with what tools, and the size of the group being examined.
We'll have to wait for papers examining different groups.
Using yDna, or mtDna, for that matter, is the worst way to draw such conclusions. I'm the child of a U-152 father and a U2e mother, both steppe lineages, and yet steppe is the smallest of my ancestral groups, 25-30% at the most. Founder effects in certain areas can make interpretation very difficult.
Turkish people have more Turkic ancestry, in addition to representing many assimilated ethnic groups and not just one. For example, look at the following map that presents the frequencies for East Asian/Eurasian admixture in each (or rather most) Turkish province, as well as certain Greek-Anatolian/Cypriot and Turkic sub-populations in the boxes. For example, you can see that based on this, Greeks in Cyprus have a frequency of 0.93%, while the Turkish average would be around 10.88%, and contrary to common belief more concentrated in western Turkey than eastern. This also makes sense by the way, since the original Turkic populations that migrated were nomadic, and they would rationally only stop where they couldn't continue any further, namely the Sea. In addition to that, let's also consider the Anatolian invasion of Timur at the beginning of the 1400s, which could have also contributed to that distribution.I would like to see the Empuries sample added to the PCA’s.
Also surprised somewhat that Turks are not relatively close to Mycenaeans, as are modern south Balkan populations (seen in heat maps).
As for classical Greeks, I would like to see if they are further east-shifted like modern Greeks, and whether the steppe ancestry seen in Mycenaeans became more diluted.
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