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Thread: Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

  1. #2576
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    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    As I expressed in the past, I believe that Mycenaean come from Anatolia due to their advanced culture, it will be strange that something like that came from the steppe.
    In addition after 2017 low steppe DNa provides additional support to this view.
    Use evidence, reason, and logic to contradict my views not what will be my reason to have these views. (it seems Trump has affected all with his way of attacking his opponents).
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    Sorry, but this is just ignorant and has been answered multiple times already. Mycenaean Greek is just a branch of Greek, not proto-Greek nor pre-proto-Greek (which pertains to the hypothetical north/south IE migrational route). Also, when you say that Mycenaeans came from Anatolia it's like saying that the rest of the Greek branches also came from Anatolia, yet in the case of Aeolians we are aware of a west-to-east migration, while in the case of Dorians a north-to-south. Forget the fact that Anatolia lacks archaic Greek toponyms. And no, the results of the 2017 paper present indications for the northern route to have been more likely.

    How does a small steppe ancestry support this view? First of all, small or big is relative, because by the time the Mycenaean civilization began, pre-proto-Greek-speaking groups had already been in the Greek peninsula for a number of centuries and would have intermixed with the locals thus diluting the original steppe ancestry and linguistically giving rise to proto-Greek (that has a pre-Greek substrate). Furthermore, it's also relative because the ultimate steppe ancestry of the Mycenaeans is calculated between ~4-16% and the proximal source population of that steppe ancestry that is included in the model that shares the most drift with Mycenaeans, namely Europe_LNBA, is calculated at 21%. Now compare this to the negligible amounts of steppe ancestry found in every pre-IA Anatolian sample that has been studied, hence Reich's statement supporting a Transcaucasian PIE hypothesis. Also, look at this following paper,
    "The First Horse Herders and the Impact of Early Bronze Age Steppe Expansions into Asia" (2018), which included Anatolian samples from many different periods.

    Last, advanced culture? And why do you need to come from Anatolia during the Early Bronze Age to explain advanced culture? You seem to be focusing so much on the steppe ancestry (that is lacking from Anatolia) forgetting that Mycenaeans originated mostly from pre-steppe and pre-IE Aegean populations. Do you forget the neighboring Minoans who were akin to the Mycenaeans (the best model calculates 79% Minoan_Lasithi) or that the latter were greatly influenced by the former? Even their Linear B writing script was adapted from the Minoan Linear A script. Minoans had created one of the few State societies in the world by the time Greeks were beginning to form. Do you really need to move outside the Aegean to explain advanced culture?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    Sorry, but this is just ignorant and has been answered multiple times already. Mycenaean Greek is just a branch of Greek, not proto-Greek nor pre-proto-Greek (which pertains to the hypothetical north/south IE migrational route). Also, when you say that Mycenaeans came from Anatolia it's like saying that the rest of the Greek branches also came from Anatolia, yet in the case of Aeolians we are aware of a west-to-east migration, while in the case of Dorians a north-to-south. Forget the fact that Anatolia lacks archaic Greek toponyms. And no, the results of the 2017 paper present indications for the northern route to have been more likely.

    How does a small steppe ancestry support this view? First of all, small or big is relative, because by the time the Mycenaean civilization began, pre-proto-Greek-speaking groups had already been in the Greek peninsula for a number of centuries and would have intermixed with the locals thus diluting the original steppe ancestry and linguistically giving rise to proto-Greek (that has a pre-Greek substrate). Furthermore, it's also relative because the ultimate steppe ancestry of the Mycenaeans is calculated between ~4-16% and the proximal source population of that steppe ancestry that is included in the model that shares the most drift with Mycenaeans, namely Europe_LNBA, is calculated at 21%. Now compare this to the negligible amounts of steppe ancestry found in every pre-IA Anatolian sample that has been studied, hence Reich's statement supporting a Transcaucasian PIE hypothesis. Also, look at this following paper,
    "The First Horse Herders and the Impact of Early Bronze Age Steppe Expansions into Asia" (2018), which included Anatolian samples from many different periods.

    Last, advanced culture? And why do you need to come from Anatolia during the Early Bronze Age to explain advanced culture? You seem to be focusing so much on the steppe ancestry (that is lacking from Anatolia by the way) forgetting that Mycenaeans originated mostly from pre-steppe and pre-IE Aegean populations. Do you forget the neighboring Minoans who were akin to the Mycenaeans (the best model calculates 79% Minoan_Lasithi) or that the latter were greatly influenced by the former? Even their Linear B writing script was adapted from the Minoan Linear A script. Minoans had created one of the few State societies in the world by the time Greeks were beginning to form. Do you really need to move outside the Aegean to explain advanced culture?

    Sorry, out of juice, but that was a good post.


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    Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    Sorry, but this is just ignorant and has been answered multiple times already. Mycenaean Greek is just a branch of Greek, not proto-Greek nor pre-proto-Greek (which pertains to the hypothetical north/south IE migrational route). Also, when you say that Mycenaeans came from Anatolia it's like saying that the rest of the Greek branches also came from Anatolia, yet in the case of Aeolians we are aware of a west-to-east migration, while in the case of Dorians a north-to-south. Forget the fact that Anatolia lacks archaic Greek toponyms. And no, the results of the 2017 paper present indications for the northern route to have been more likely.

    How does a small steppe ancestry support this view? First of all, small or big is relative, because by the time the Mycenaean civilization began, pre-proto-Greek-speaking groups had already been in the Greek peninsula for a number of centuries and would have intermixed with the locals thus diluting the original steppe ancestry and linguistically giving rise to proto-Greek (that has a pre-Greek substrate). Furthermore, it's also relative because the ultimate steppe ancestry of the Mycenaeans is calculated between ~4-16% and the proximal source population of that steppe ancestry that is included in the model that shares the most drift with Mycenaeans, namely Europe_LNBA, is calculated at 21%. Now compare this to the negligible amounts of steppe ancestry found in every pre-IA Anatolian sample that has been studied, hence Reich's statement supporting a Transcaucasian PIE hypothesis. Also, look at this following paper,
    "The First Horse Herders and the Impact of Early Bronze Age Steppe Expansions into Asia" (2018), which included Anatolian samples from many different periods.

    Last, advanced culture? And why do you need to come from Anatolia during the Early Bronze Age to explain advanced culture? You seem to be focusing so much on the steppe ancestry (that is lacking from Anatolia) forgetting that Mycenaeans originated mostly from pre-steppe and pre-IE Aegean populations. Do you forget the neighboring Minoans who were akin to the Mycenaeans (the best model calculates 79% Minoan_Lasithi) or that the latter were greatly influenced by the former? Even their Linear B writing script was adapted from the Minoan Linear A script. Minoans had created one of the few State societies in the world by the time Greeks were beginning to form. Do you really need to move outside the Aegean to explain advanced culture?

    What is ignorant here, the answer together with evidence is not supposed to come from you, all you can provide here is your opinion, but not to me but to someone that care to hear it.

    In case you are a researcher, than show this research that answers the questions laid down by Lazaridis 2017, don’t waste my time with all this.....


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    Greece between 1600 BC-1400 BC
    Through most of the Middle Helladic period the Greek mainland had resembled, if we may answer Oliver Dickinson’s question in the affirmative, a “third-world” country when compared to Middle Kingdom Egypt or Minoan Crete. The material remains from Greece show no sign of a formal state, a ranked society, or anything other than a simple village economy.

    Parts of the mainland, especially if they had important natural resources, were apparently under the control of the ruler at Knossos. Two hundred years later, ca. 1400 BC, the Greek mainland was home to one of the most important kingdoms in western Eurasia. Knossos and the rest of Crete were now under the control of this mainland kingdom, which was also embarking on expeditions to western Anatolia and Cyprus.



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    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    Greece between 1600 BC-1400 BC
    Through most of the Middle Helladic period the Greek mainland had resembled, if we may answer Oliver Dickinson’s question in the affirmative, a “third-world” country when compared to Middle Kingdom Egypt or Minoan Crete. The material remains from Greece show no sign of a formal state, a ranked society, or anything other than a simple village economy.

    Parts of the mainland, especially if they had important natural resources, were apparently under the control of the ruler at Knossos. Two hundred years later, ca. 1400 BC, the Greek mainland was home to one of the most important kingdoms in western Eurasia. Knossos and the rest of Crete were now under the control of this mainland kingdom, which was also embarking on expeditions to western Anatolia and Cyprus.



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    I read all your posts in Forum,

    and understand what you want to say? I guess you do not even know what you write,
    any way,

    Crete is considered the first naval power at 3 continents, offcourse this has to be with geogrphic location,
    the first full organised for these eras society, and probably the first which had a full organised merchant and exchange model,
    and probably the first that had a Judging system, maybe written, the later Greeks put Minoan Judges at Underworld, and monotheistic religions chnge it with God,

    Crete was destroy by Thera volcanoe,

    so my Question to you is simple
    What you you want to prove every time you post?
    you think we do not know history or genetics?

    and a second question
    are you get payed or work for someones?
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    ΝΕΜΕΣΙΣ ΚΑΙ ΤΙΣΗ ΑΚΟΛΟΥΘΟΥΣΙ ΔΕ

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    Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    I read all your posts in Forum,

    and understand what you want to say? I guess you do not even know what you write,
    any way,

    Crete is considered the first naval power at 3 continents, offcourse this has to be with geogrphic location,
    the first full organised for these eras society, and probably the first which had a full organised merchant and exchange model,
    and probably the first that had a Judging system, maybe written, the later Greeks put Minoan Judges at Underworld, and monotheistic religions chnge it with God,

    Crete was destroy by Thera volcanoe,

    so my Question to you is simple
    What you you want to prove every time you post?
    you think we do not know history or genetics?

    and a second question
    are you get payed or work for someones?
    Personal questions again!
    My reasons for posting here are probably same as yours, genuine interest for history and genetics.
    I serve multiple masters (my clients), considering my profession.

    Coming back to Greece 1600 BC.

    What happened on the Greek mainland shortly before 1600 BC has recently been summarized by Helène Whittaker: Toward the end of the Middle Helladic period we see a fundamental break with the values of Middle Helladic society. There is an opening up to influences from the wider world, and the presence of rich and exotic grave goods indicates that wealth and conspicuous consumption were starting to become important to the expression and reinforcement of social and political status. In particular, using material culture to advertise contacts with the Minoan elites became a new way for members of the emerging Mycenaean elites to show how rich and powerful they were. In the political sphere, we see the development of a powerful military culture that was expressed through the material elaboration of the lifestyle of the warrior.

    Drews argue that this was indeed a fundamental break rather than a development: the military culture, that is, was the result not of a process but of an event, a sudden interruption of the longue durée on the Greek mainland around 1600 BC.

    The most likely explanation for the sudden appearance of a ranked society and militarism is that shortly before 1600 BC there arrived in the harbors of the Greek mainland military forces and their leaders. The linguistic argument about wheeled vehicles identifies the language of the intruders as Indo-European.



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  7. #2582
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    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    What is ignorant here, the answer together with evidence is not supposed to come from you, all you can provide here is your opinion, but not to me but to someone that care to hear it.
    In case you are a researcher, than show this research that answers the questions laid down by Lazaridis 2017, don’t waste my time with all this.....
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    First of all, my opinion is meant to be read not heard. Second, the prior comment you wrote didn't even make sense for the most part and i explained to you why. The irony is that you prompted for the use of reason. If you can't find reason in what i wrote then this was a waste of my time.

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    Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    First of all, my opinion is meant to be read not heard. Second, the prior comment you wrote didn't even make sense for the most part and i explained to you why. The irony is that you prompted for the use of reason. If you can't find reason in what i wrote then this was a waste of my time.
    I said use evidence, reason, and logic. The first one is evidence for the topic at hand. Based on evidence we can reason using logic.

    It seems that you don’t have new evidence, with what was available in 2017 , Lazaridis was not able to conclude.
    On the other side you are certain on the Northern Model. Beyond this point any exchange is repetion of the same.



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    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    Personal questions again!
    My reasons for posting here are probably same as yours, genuine interest for history and genetics.
    I serve multiple masters (my clients), considering my profession.

    Coming back to Greece 1600 BC.

    What happened on the Greek mainland shortly before 1600 BC has recently been summarized by Helène Whittaker: Toward the end of the Middle Helladic period we see a fundamental break with the values of Middle Helladic society. There is an opening up to influences from the wider world, and the presence of rich and exotic grave goods indicates that wealth and conspicuous consumption were starting to become important to the expression and reinforcement of social and political status. In particular, using material culture to advertise contacts with the Minoan elites became a new way for members of the emerging Mycenaean elites to show how rich and powerful they were. In the political sphere, we see the development of a powerful military culture that was expressed through the material elaboration of the lifestyle of the warrior.

    Drews argue that this was indeed a fundamental break rather than a development: the military culture, that is, was the result not of a process but of an event, a sudden interruption of the longue durée on the Greek mainland around 1600 BC.

    The most likely explanation for the sudden appearance of a ranked society and militarism is that shortly before 1600 BC there arrived in the harbors of the Greek mainland military forces and their leaders. The linguistic argument about wheeled vehicles identifies the language of the intruders as Indo-European.



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    If you ever read my posts, surely you knew what happen,
    But No, YOU NEVER READ, the only you want us to do is REAPEAT, REPEAT,

    your questions are answered many times,
    once again, Read the book of Giannopoulos,
    and Georgiev about Hellenic language (proto-Hellenic)

    Minoan and Minyan world



    Mycenean world




    proto Greek world, the Hellenic,





    and since you never read, I will raise the scale to make it easy to your eyes.


    The Minoan eruption was a major catastrophicvolcanic eruptionthat devastated theAegean island of Thera (now called Santorini) in around 1600 BCE.[1]It destroyed the Minoan settlement at Akrotiri, as well as communities and agricultural areas on nearby islands and the coast of Crete with subsequent earthquakes and tsunamis.[2] With a VEI magnitude between 6 and 7, resulting in an ejection of approximately 60 km3 (14 cu mi) of dense-rock equivalent (DRE),[3][4] the eruption was one of the largest volcanic events on Earth in human history.[5][6][7]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minoan_eruption

    Now you have your answers,


    at the bellow photo you can see the THERA VOLCANIC ASH (pozolane called Theraiki gi, Θηραικη γη) at today Crete


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    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    I said use evidence, reason, and logic. The first one is evidence for the topic at hand. Based on evidence we can reason using logic.
    It seems that you don’t have new evidence, with what was available in 2017 , Lazaridis was not able to conclude.
    On the other side you are certain on the Northern Model. Beyond this point any exchange is repetion of the same.
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    The thing is that i am also using evidence, and it's what i have been citing all along. Furthermore, no, i am not certain of the northern route, but it is a matter of weighing information. The reason i am confident in it isn't only due to genetics that seem to favor it, but linguistics and archaeology as well. Some of that information has already been shared in the past in this thread, while other information hasn't. Regardless, as aforementioned a couple of days ago, interdisciplinary analysis is very useful in these kind of questions.

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    Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    If you ever read my posts, surely you knew what happen,
    But No, YOU NEVER READ, the only you want us to do is REAPEAT, REPEAT,

    your questions are answered many times,
    once again, Read the book of Giannopoulos,
    and Georgiev about Hellenic language (proto-Hellenic)

    Minoan and Minyan world



    Mycenean world




    proto Greek world, the Hellenic,





    and since you never read, I will raise the scale to make it easy to your eyes.


    The Minoan eruption was a major catastrophicvolcanic eruptionthat devastated theAegean island of Thera (now called Santorini) in around1600 BCE.[1]It destroyed the Minoan settlement at Akrotiri, as well as communities and agricultural areas on nearby islands and the coast of Crete with subsequent earthquakes and tsunamis.[2] With a VEI magnitude between 6 and 7, resulting in an ejection of approximately 60 km3 (14 cu mi) of dense-rock equivalent (DRE),[3][4] the eruption was one of the largest volcanic events on Earth in human history.[5][6][7]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minoan_eruption

    Now you have your answers,
    I have read it, but since was not enough for Lazaridis 2017 than I will wait for more evidence. What you are posting is old and not conclusive. In addition tell Lazaridis to test in Epirus not in Anatolia to find Greeks. LOL


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    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    I have read it, but since was not enough for Lazaridis 2017 than I will wait for more evidence. What you are posting is old and not conclusive. In addition tell Lazaridis to test in Epirus not in Anatolia to find Greeks. LOL


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    Offcourse as I said before,
    you only post under Agenda.
    But thank you, cause you admit that Epirus is archegonos Hellas proto-Greek,
    or Better as Aristoteles said Greeks and Selloi (Hellenes)

    Beside do not forget, that Greek and Cretan might be from same Linguistic origin. at the Doric dialect called Groussa.

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    S


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    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    The thing is that i am also using evidence, and it's what i have been citing all along. Furthermore, no, i am not certain of the northern route, but it is a matter of weighing information. The reason i am confident in it isn't only due to genetics that seem to favor it, but linguistics and archaeology as well. Some of that information has already been shared in the past in this thread, while other information hasn't. Regardless, as aforementioned a couple of days ago, interdisciplinary analysis is very useful in these kind of questions.

    Lazaridis 2017 “Second, is the ‘northern’ ancestry in Mycenaeans due to sporadic infiltration of Greece, or to a rapid migration as in Central Europe? Such a migration would support the idea that proto-Greek speakers formed the southern wing of a steppe intrusion of Indo-European speakers. Yet, the absence of ‘northern’ ancestry in the Bronze Age samples from Pisidia, where Indo-European languages were attested in antiquity, casts doubt on this genetic– linguistic association, with further sampling of ancient Anatolian speakers needed.”

    So this according to you means that the Northern model si favored. I guess that my understanding of English is different from yours. Anyway I rest my argument here looking forward for additional research and evidence.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    Offcourse as I said before,
    you only post under Agenda.
    But thank you, cause you admit that Epirus is archegonos Hellas proto-Greek,
    or Better as Aristoteles said Greeks and Selloi (Hellenes)

    Beside do not forget, that Greek and Cretan might be from same Linguistic origin. at the Doric dialect called Groussa.
    The mountains of Epirus, they surely are the Cradle of Greeks, like Kosovo for Serbs. LOL.
    And I have an agenda, I have already disclosed that in the past.

    As Angela said: “Albanian northern origin will be used as a stick to beat our greek neighbors, in case Anatolian route prevails”. But you know better what is in game here, don’t you? So your reaction and posts are understood.

    How that sound for an agenda?


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    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    The mountains of Epirus, they surely are the Cradle of Greeks, like Kosovo for Serbs. LOL.
    And I have an agenda, I have already disclosed that in the past.

    As Angela said: “Albanian northern origin will be used as a stick to beat our greek neighbors, in case Anatolian route prevails”. But you know better what is in game here, don’t you? So your reaction and posts are understood.

    How that sound for an agenda?


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    or the oposite?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    or the oposite?
    You mean your agenda.


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    To my opinion

    the much talk about Lazarides discussion is not needed,

    the above papper just proved the bellow

    Minoan civilization



    Mycenean civilization





    Both civilizations maybe are, or share high % of the same genetics population.

    So the true questions are the 3 bellow,

    1. Did Minoans and Myceneans arrive same time at Aegean pelago

    that is basic question, why they develop different cultures? as also at language matters,


    2. Was Minoan a IE language?

    if Minoan as Myceneanan was an IE language means 2 things,
    a. IE either was a Neolithic, or an early agricultural language, and back to C. Renfrew.
    b. Minoan-Mycenean language originated at S Caucasus, but passed through all Anatolian IE languages and Hatti language to Aegean.

    3. Could Myceneans change language to IE? and not Minoans

    That is the other model, the Minoan-Mycenian population spoke an unknown language, which may was or evolute to Minoan and Linear A, but accept or adopt or assimilated by the IE creating the Mycenean Greek and Linear B.
    to that model we are quided if we Follow the Paleobalkan languages, and Primitive Greek languages or as known NW dialects, like Epirotan and Makedonian.
    and the archaiology as descibed last decade by Giannopoulos.

    I am placing a map again




    So the models placed by Jiovalis

    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post




    Here is why the Eastern Model may be viable imo:


    I think can be answered if you can answer the 3 questions I place above,

    1. Did Minoans and Myceneans arrive same time at Aegean pelago

    2. Was Minoan a IE language?

    3. Could Myceneans change language to IE? and not Minoans,

    here I must add 2 maps

    1 The Greco-Aryan IE theory model.





    2 the S Caucasus model





    3, The Anatolian Hypothesis, IE is a Neolithic, Anatolian Farmers language






    Choose,

    Personally, I believe Myceneans were Minoans who got IE

    and I think Lazarides papper is obvious from the 2 first maps I copy/paste at the begin of post, and certifies both maps

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    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    Lazaridis 2017 “Second, is the ‘northern’ ancestry in Mycenaeans due to sporadic infiltration of Greece, or to a rapid migration as in Central Europe? Such a migration would support the idea that proto-Greek speakers formed the southern wing of a steppe intrusion of Indo-European speakers. Yet, the absence of ‘northern’ ancestry in the Bronze Age samples from Pisidia, where Indo-European languages were attested in antiquity, casts doubt on this genetic– linguistic association, with further sampling of ancient Anatolian speakers needed.”
    So this according to you means that the Northern model si favored. I guess that my understanding of English is different from yours. Anyway I rest my argument here looking forward for additional research and evidence.
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    Blevins, if you paid some closer attention to what i am writing you wouldn't have to wait for additional research and evidence. You cited Lazaridis et al.'s (2017) quote that called for additional sampling of ancient Anatolian individuals needed. Yet, in the post at the top of this page i shared a paper that came after the 2017 paper, namely "The First Horse Herders and the Impact of Early Bronze Age Steppe Expansions into Asia" (2018), which included Anatolian samples from many different periods. Specifically, 10 from central Anatolia spanning from the Early Bronze Age (~2200 BCE) to the Iron Age (~600 BCE), and even 2 Anatolian Ottoman (1500 CE) samples for comparison; all newly sequenced individuals. Some relevant quotes, "The PCA (Fig. 2B) indicates that all the Anatolian genome sequences from the Early Bronze Age (~2200 BCE) and Late Bronze Age (~1600 BCE) cluster with a previously sequenced Copper Age (~3900–3700 BCE) individual from Northwestern Anatolia and lie between Anatolian Neolithic (Anatolia_N) samples and CHG samples but not between Anatolia_N and EHG samples.", and, "Our results indicate that the early spread of IE languages into Anatolia was not associated with any large-scale steppe-related migration, as previously suggested (61).". Furthermore, it's not only the lack of steppe ancestry in Anatolia during the period that is contemporary to the arrival of pre-proto-Greeks in the Greek peninsula, but also the aforementioned model of 79% Minoan_Lasithi and 21% Europe_LNBA that shares the most drift with Mycenaeans. In the end, you are free to support any hypothesis you want but available genetic evidence suggests for a northern route to have been more likely (not certain, more likely). But personally i am not resting my view on genetics alone, as aforementioned.

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    1 members found this post helpful.

    Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    Blevins, if you paid some closer attention to what i am writing you wouldn't have to wait for additional research and evidence. You cited Lazaridis et al.'s (2017) quote that called for additional sampling of ancient Anatolian individuals needed. Yet, in the post at the top of this page i shared a paper that came after the 2017 paper, namely "The First Horse Herders and the Impact of Early Bronze Age Steppe Expansions into Asia" (2018), which included Anatolian samples from many different periods. Specifically, 10 from central Anatolia spanning from the Early Bronze Age (~2200 BCE) to the Iron Age (~600 BCE), and even 2 Anatolian Ottoman (1500 CE) samples for comparison; all newly sequenced individuals. Some relevant quotes, "The PCA (Fig. 2B) indicates that all the Anatolian genome sequences from the Early Bronze Age (~2200 BCE) and Late Bronze Age (~1600 BCE) cluster with a previously sequenced Copper Age (~3900–3700 BCE) individual from Northwestern Anatolia and lie between Anatolian Neolithic (Anatolia_N) samples and CHG samples but not between Anatolia_N and EHG samples.", and, "Our results indicate that the early spread of IE languages into Anatolia was not associated with any large-scale steppe-related migration, as previously suggested (61).". Furthermore, it's not only the lack of steppe ancestry in Anatolia during the period that is contemporary to the arrival of pre-proto-Greeks in the Greek peninsula, but also the aforementioned model of 79% Minoan_Lasithi and 21% Europe_LNBA that shares the most drift with Mycenaeans. In the end, you are free to support any hypothesis you want but available genetic evidence suggests for a northern route to have been more likely (not certain, more likely). But personally i am not resting my view on genetics alone, as aforementioned.
    Damgaard at al (2018) confirms Lazaridis for the lack of steppe in Anatolia but say nothing about Greece.

    While Lazaridis (2017) says “Second, is the ‘northern’ ancestry in Mycenaeans due to sporadic infiltration of Greece, or to a rapid migration as in Central Europe? Such a migration would support the idea that proto-Greek speakers formed the southern wing of a steppe intrusion of Indo-European speakers. Yet, the absence of ‘northern’ ancestry in the Bronze Age samples from Pisidia, where Indo-European languages were attested in antiquity, casts doubt on this genetic– linguistic association, with further sampling of ancient Anatolian speakers needed.”

    Mathieson at al (2018) adds “While we find sporadic steppe-related ancestry in Balkan Copper and Bronze Age individuals, this ancestry is rare until the late Bronze Age.”

    As I said, I guess my comprehension of English is different from yours.
    In addition, you might suggest Lazaridis to conclude if all evidence is available now, or you can conclude yourself in a research paper.
    Be the one to solve Lazaridis dilemma.


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    Last edited by blevins13; 25-02-21 at 15:32.

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    The "casts doubt on this genetic–linguistic association" pertains more to the broader IE linguistic family and whether we should be associating "steppe" ancestry with IE linguistic expansion in general, than to the Greek branch itself. It refers to the Anatolian IE branch (different from Greek) and whether it diverged south of the steppe (Anatolia and/or Transcaucasia) which would explain the lack of steppe ancestry, or it didn't. That's where Reich's (an author of the 2017 paper) excerpt provided by Jovialis comes and elaborates on the aforementioned rationale.



    The lack of steppe ancestry in Anatolia discussed by the Lazaridis et al. (2017) paper suggests this as a possibility, and the Damgaard et al. (2018) that came later essentially enforces this with additional evidence (Hittites as well). Furthermore, as has been repeated multiple times already, that's also one of the reasons that the northern migrational route of the pre-proto-Greeks seems more likely, because if they had migrated through Anatolia, you would expect to find a trace associated with their notable steppe ancestry. The steppe ancestry of the Mycenaeans obviously came from somewhere and differentiated them from pre-Greek populations such as the related Minoans, and that somewhere appears to be the north more so than the east, regardless of sporadic or not migration. Indeed, more analysis is required for identifying that proximal (surrogate) source, as mentioned in that other quote i shared a couple of days ago, "
    However, we do notice that the model 79%Minoan_Lasithi+21%Europe_LNBA tends to share more drift with Mycenaeans (at the |Z|>2 level). Europe_LNBA is a diverse group of steppe-admixed Late Neolithic/Bronze Age individuals from mainland Europe, and we think that the further study of areas to the north of Greece might identify a surrogate for this admixture event – if, indeed, the Minoan_Lasithi+Europe_LNBA model represents the true history.".

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    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    The mountains of Epirus, they surely are the Cradle of Greeks, like Kosovo for Serbs. LOL.
    And I have an agenda, I have already disclosed that in the past.

    As Angela said: “Albanian northern origin will be used as a stick to beat our greek neighbors, in case Anatolian route prevails”. But you know better what is in game here, don’t you? So your reaction and posts are understood.

    How that sound for an agenda?


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    Please list the number of the post where I said that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    Mathieson at al (2018) adds “While we find sporadic steppe-related ancestry in Balkan Copper and Bronze Age individuals, this ancestry is rare until the late Bronze Age.”
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    Here is Mathieson et al.'s (2018) context for that statement, "In two directly dated individuals from southeastern Europe, one (ANI163) from the Varna I cemetery dated to 4711-4550 BCE and one (I2181) from nearby Smyadovo dated to 4550-4450 BCE, we find far earlier evidence of steppe-related ancestry (Figure 1B,D). These findings push back the first evidence of steppe-related ancestry this far West in Europe by almost 2,000 years, but it was sporadic as other Copper Age (~5000-4000 BCE) individuals from the Balkans have no evidence of it. Bronze Age (~3400-1100 BCE) individuals do have steppe-related ancestry (we estimate 30%; CI: 26-35%), with the highest proportions in the four latest Balkan Bronze Age individuals in our data (later than ~1700 BCE) and the least in earlier Bronze Age individuals (3400-2500 BCE; Figure 1D).". If anything, all these can be used as additional evidence to corroborate the northern route.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Please list the number of the post where I said that.
    #2560


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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    The mountains of Epirus, they surely are the Cradle of Greeks, like Kosovo for Serbs. LOL.
    And I have an agenda, I have already disclosed that in the past.

    As Angela said: “Albanian northern origin will be used as a stick to beat our greek neighbors, in case Anatolian route prevails”. But you know better what is in game here, don’t you? So your reaction and posts are understood.

    How that sound for an agenda?


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    This is what I actually said:
    Who cares, other than as a matter of intellectual interest, for God's sake, other than the Albanians, who apparently like to think that would make them more "European" than the Greeks. Just another stick to beat the Greeks over the head with, when Albanians are almost indistinguishable from Northern Greeks. (That includes you, Ailchu.)

    How dare you put quotation marks around your own interpretation of my words? Don't ever do it again. If you're going to quote me QUOTE ME.

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