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Quotes are to long so I used a paraphrase, I guess I should have followed APA format, but I did not know that was required in this thread.Originally Posted by Angela
Did I get the meaning correctly or you mean something else?
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Your interpretation makes it sound as if I think Albanians are more "northern" than Greeks, when actually they are NOT more "northern" than Greeks. They're only more "Northern" than "SOME" Greeks, given the variation in Greeks and the fact that Albanians are very much like Thessalians, and nestle right within the larger scope of Greek variation.
Plus, I wasn't talking about "Northern" but about European.
Thirdly whether steppe admixed people arrived from the east or from the more northern Balkans is irrelevant as to whether they are just as "European".
So, yes, in paraphrasing, you did distort what I said.
However, I do indeed believe there is an agenda held by some Albanians specifically to try to show that Greeks have MORE or DIFFERENT Anatolian ancestry or Iran Neo Ancestry than do Albanians, making Albanians more "European" than they are. I've seen it for twelve years, unfortunately.
Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci
So let me fix it:
Albanians, who apparently like to think that the eastern model would make them more "European" than the Greeks, another stick to beat the Greeks over the head with, when Albanians are almost indistinguishable from Northern Greeks.
I guess, it is worst than I remembered. Also the “Europeaness” of the Greeks is in play under Albanian Agenda. LOL.
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Yes, you've got it, and then there's the other one: the Greeks in Greece somehow "all" disappeared, and Greece was completely resettled by Albanian shepherds and Slavs, leading to the Greeks of today. Why else would you and Albanians who think like you have held so tightly to that 19th century German travel writer, Fallermayer, who had not one shred of genetics to support him, or a real knowledge of history and linguistics. As if Albanians and Slavs could create the Peloponnesians of today. (Who, after all is closer to the Mycenaeans and Classical Era Greeks, the Albanians or the Peloponnesians?)
If all else failed there was always the canard that Greeks were descendants of Ottomans, where if there was any intermarriage with Ottomans where the progeny remained in Greece it would have taken place with the converted Muslim Albanians and Kosovars. Not, I hasten to add that I believe there was much of that.
This is what I've read for years, and this kind of attempt to rob a people of their history by made up facts a la Fallermayer and twisted logic that because some Albanians settled in Greece it means Greeks are not descended from Mycenaeans and Classical Greeks is appalling and does neither you personally nor Albanians in general any credit. Neither does the constant bleating about the Illyrians, when Northern Italians are closer genetically to Illyrians than are Albanians. The Balkans has been a melting pot for all kinds of people; no one can pretend to be "pure" descendants of ancient tribes, as, indeed, Italians can't pretend to be 100% descendants of the Italic tribes or Ligures even if they descend from them.
It's time to grow up, and that goes for all of Europe. The myths promulgated by dictators, whether they're Albanian or Mussolini, or Hitler, or the guy in Hungary and on and on to get people unified and ready to put up with a loss of freedom, and ready to commit acts of aggression over this bit of land or the other, have to be thrown in the waste basket. The bleeding from World War I, which had the largest loss of life by soldiers in modern history, which, indeed, slaughtered an entire generation of young men, was in a lot of ways for nothing and just a cause of World War II.
How many Italian mothers and fathers and wives grieved for the rest of their lives for young men who died to get the Trentino/Alto-Adige/South Tyrol, Gorizio, Fiume? For what? Gabriele D'Annunzio has a lot to answer for. What good does it do Italy? If an area was one where the majority considered themselves Italian and were Italian speaking, ok, if it could be achieved diplomatically or through plebiscite, but otherwise it's insanity. I mean, if we could "peacefully" have gotten Nizza, and Corsica back from France (one of Cavour's mistakes), with their consent, well, that's the kind of Italia Irredenta I could have gotten behind, but the Alto-Adige, Bolzano with their German speakers, Fiume and Istria with their mismatch of ethnicities and languages, what was that about? Look at all these special privileges that the Trentino/Alto Adige get to stay in the country. What does Italy get out of it? Kick them out and good riddance.
Italians don't care any more, but in the Balkans, fifty years behind because they were dominated by the Soviet Union, these kinds of claims led to genocide and brutality, a horror which Europe seemed incapable of controlling. Hold Plebiscites and have done with it. Have a conference of all the countries, hold plebiscites, and stop the stupidity.
Can I ask why for the umpteenth time Sicilians have been mentioned in a discussion that had nothing to do about them? It was about ancient Greeks.
It is very peculiar though that Sicilians have literally 0% Levant dna ( in excess to what was already present in the farmers) in every genetic papers I have seen, and I think I have read enough of them, and they are just regular southern Italians with a bit of north african admixture, perfectly in line with that you'd expect from their history and geographic position.
The fact that only random internet samples (c'mon, we know how much easy it is to label samples however you want, and an odd obsession about south Italians and Sicilians by many hobbiest warrant a healthy amount of skepticism, granted that those samples, or the results given by the amateurish calculator, are at odds with those from professional studies) show such a trace leads me to be pretty confident that it isn't genuine and a batch of other explanations is more likely (as for example the one proposed by Jovialis).
Last edited by Leopoldo Leone; 27-02-21 at 00:50.
Well
Just intrested in them
I cluster with them in all these calculators
You say are amature...
Now most of my ancestery is western jewish
And maybe a levant ancestery in them is what cause this overlapp....
( becsuse i sure do have this levant ancestery )
But if you say academic papers say they have nada of it than who knows...
Sefhardi, aschenazi, bulgarian
die Überlebenden
https://www.yfull.com/live/tree/E-Y62418/
https://yfull.com/mtree/H3ap/
k12b ancient
Closest:
3.30708331 R136_Imperial_Era_Marcellino_&_Pietrophenotype: east med with pontic vibe
Well, Mycenaeans and Sicilians cluster near one another, and we have it on the authority of this paper that Mycenaeans have no Levantine admixture.
You can land on a PCA near someone of another ethnicity and not have the same ancestry. That's why a half Japanese/half German can cluster near Uighers.
A PCA is only one measure of analysis.
Ok
I am more closer to greek islander
Like cretan because i have some slavic genes and i am less western than sicilian ( but there still high up there in total autosomal picture)
P.s
It is enigma to me so the pheonicians left no genetic signiture in sicilians at all ...
Maybe when the Reich paper comes out they'll find some; I don't know.Ok
I am more closer to greek islander
Like cretan because i have some slavic genes and i am less western than sicilian ( but there still high up there in total autosomal picture)
P.s
It is enigma to me so the pheonicians left heno genetic signiture in sicilians at all ...
I do know that I've said for over ten years that the Phoenicians were traders not traders and "settlers" like the Greeks. They set up trading emporia, farming the land in a sort of factory system for trade. They didn't set up little Phoenician towns everywhere they had an emporia and bring over the whole family, and then seed other towns. Anyone who knows Greek and Phoenician history should know that. The only sizeable Phoenician "colony" was Carthage, and even Carthage never had enough men for its wars of expansion. Their army was made up of allied tribes and mercenaries, like the Ligures I might add.
Plus, in Sicily there was only one Phoenician Emporia and that was right near Palermo. Now, it's true Carthage controlled Sicily during the series of wars with Rome, but most of the soldiers quartered there were, as I said, from allied tribes in Sicily or the mainland or Spain, or they were mercenaries.
If we should have learned anything after all these years, it's that passing armies and merchants may deposit some exotic y dna that shows up, but for significant change to the local genome you need folk migrations, and even then they have to be pretty large.
Leopoldo: Thanks for the post and Angela same to you. With respect to this "pee pee" match between Albanians and Greeks and the Myceneans, I am not now, as in the past, going to get into this. However, since Sicilians were mentioned and I am 100% American of Sicilian_Italian Ancestry and just as Leopoldo states, and I cluster with modern Sicilian and other Southern Italian Samples (which Leopoldo correctly noted; and I have a long enough history and posting record of results to document that) I am going to post these 2 MDLPK11 models using both my NAT GENO and ANCESTRY DNA. And then say Basta and let the models speak for themselves.
Target: PalermoTrapani_NATGENO
Distance: 1.2981% / 1.29813940 | ADC: 0.25x RC79.7 Mycenaean_I9041 7.0 Bell_Beaker 6.9 Corded_Ware_Chalcolithic 6.4 British_Roman
Target: PalermoTrapani_ANCESTRY
Distance: 1.2092% / 1.20923081 | ADC: 0.25x RC65.1 Mycenaean_I9041 16.6 Bell_Beaker 15.9 British_Roman 2.4 Armenia_Chalcolithic
Much of this is political and off topic, i have nothing to add. More interesting would be, to have your views in relation with eastern or northern model and why one can be more favored against the other. Don’t try anymore to conclude about my reasons for being interested in the origin of Mycenaeans or any other population in the Balkans, adds no value to this thread, and without any proof it might be prejudice and/or speculation.
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Last edited by blevins13; 27-02-21 at 18:54.
ok you don't score levant bronze age
though the british roman 15.9% is realy a levantine gladiator from york
so this could be levantine influence ....
you do have a huge mycenean 65.1% so angela was correct
here is a greek islander full chios gedmatch kit in mdlp k11 values in vahaduo
for comparision
Target: chios
Distance: 0.7598% / 0.7598463525.3 Minoan_Lasithi_I0070 21.2 Levant_BA 13.6 Minoan_Odigitria_I9131 13.5 Bell_Beaker 9.6 Armenia_MLBA 7.5 Kotias_CHG 6.8 Hungary_IronAge 1.4 Karsdorf_LN 1.1 Ancient_Australian
Target: chios
Distance: 0.7598% / 0.7598463525.3 Minoan_Lasithi_I0070 21.2 Levant_BA 13.6 Minoan_Odigitria_I9131 13.5 Bell_Beaker 9.6 Armenia_MLBA 7.5 Kotias_CHG 6.8 Hungary_IronAge 1.4 Karsdorf_LN 1.1 Ancient_Australian
I ask for permission to post my results of admixture Vahaduo MDLP K11, out of curiosity and for comparison, without wanting to go into the merit of theme of thread. Thanks all.ok you don't score levant bronze age
though the british roman 15.9% is realy a levantine gladiator from york
so this could be levantine influence ....
you do have a huge mycenean 65.1% so angela was correct
here is a greek islander full chios gedmatch kit in mdlp k11 values in vahaduo
for comparision
Target: chios
Distance: 0.7598% / 0.7598463525.3 Minoan_Lasithi_I0070 21.2 Levant_BA 13.6 Minoan_Odigitria_I9131 13.5 Bell_Beaker 9.6 Armenia_MLBA 7.5 Kotias_CHG 6.8 Hungary_IronAge 1.4 Karsdorf_LN 1.1 Ancient_Australian
Target: chios
Distance: 0.7598% / 0.7598463525.3 Minoan_Lasithi_I0070 21.2 Levant_BA 13.6 Minoan_Odigitria_I9131 13.5 Bell_Beaker 9.6 Armenia_MLBA 7.5 Kotias_CHG 6.8 Hungary_IronAge 1.4 Karsdorf_LN 1.1 Ancient_Australian
Target: Duarte
Distance: 0.1988% / 0.19878011
18.0 Bell_Beaker 13.6 GermanStuttgart_LBK 13.4 Bell_Beaker_Czech 6.6 British_Roman 6.6 Samara_HG 6.1 LBK_EN 4.5 Baltic_LBA 3.5 Greek_Neolithic 3.4 Salzmuende_MN 3.3 Halberstadt_LBA 2.6 Levant_BA 2.3 Hungary_CA 2.1 AfontovaGora3_Paleolithic 2.0 GoyetQ53_1_Gravettian 1.9 Denisovan 1.8 Minoan_Lasithi_I0070 1.7 Tyrolean_Iceman_EN 1.6 Ancient_Australian 1.1 Neandertal_Mezmaiskaya 0.9 Ancient_Denisova 0.7 Ancient_Neandertal 0.6 Natufian 0.6 Neandertal_Altai 0.5 Levant_N 0.4 Starcevo_EN 0.2 Luxembourg_Mesolithic
Target: Duarte
Distance: 1.9837% / 1.98372200 | ADC: 0.25x RC52.7 Maros_BA 17.3 Crete_Armenoi_I9123 13.0 Nordic_MN_B 12.1 British_Roman 4.9 Mota_EastAfrica
KingJohn: I agree there is some Levant ancestry that is in Sicily, as well as other places in Italy, but it largely is part of the Anatolian Farmers. Feldman et al 2019 I think provided evidence of this in their Nature publication "Late Pleistocene human genome suggests a local origin for the first farmers of central Anatolia". The Early European Farmers were modeled as 80%_90% local Hunter Gathers who adopted Farming plus 2 other source ancestries from the Caucuses_Iran and Levant.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-019-09209-7
So my theory has always been that by the time of the Greek and Roman period, the ancestry in Sicily was pretty much what it was. As Angela stated the Phoenicians were sea people and largely used NW Sicily as a base for ports for their trade network. I would love to get some samples from Sicily from the period 800 BC to the early Imperial Roman Period. And of course data from subsequent periods, later Roman Imperial just before the collapse in the West, and down to the Norman period.
As the Western Roman empire started to collapse and before the Byzantines ruled Sicily, the Franks and Vandals (Germans) ruled it for roughly a 100 year period. The Saracens (Abbasid Caliphate based in the Levant) who invaded in 827 and by 965AD had complete control over Sicily were shortly after kicked out by the Normans, who at the Pope Leo IX's Request, or signal to do so, came into Sicily in 1060 and by 1095 took total control over Sicily. After the Normans, various Spanish and French crowns ruled it (from afar), etc. So what does all this mean? Well my take speaking only for me, I am today pretty no different than the C6 Med. European Cluster that Antonio et al 2019 documented in their paper. Jovialis put together the 127 ancient Lazio Samples by the C1, C2....C7 clusters defined in that paper.
Target: PalermoTrapani_NATGEN
Distance: 0.3524% / 0.35242553 | ADC: 0.25x RC55.5 C6_Iron_Age_Mediterranean 24.4 Balkans_IronAge 20.1 Mycenaean
Target: PalermoTrapani_AN
Distance: 0.0239% / 0.02385788 | ADC: 0.25x RC73.1 C6_Iron_Age_Mediterranean 11.6 Foggia_MA 7.0 C6_Imperial_Mediterranean 4.3 C6_Medieval_Mediterranean 4.0 Varna
KingJohn: I am going through other calculators. I think the updated K13 at vahadou has the Roman Gladiator from the Levant (in K13 referred to as sample 3TD26_England_Roman_MiddleEast). So running my Ancestry and NAT GENO DNA but can't get them to post directly. May have to go with imgur. Sorry about that.
@kingjohn
Ok, I see now your interest in Sicilians and Greek islanders because of your own ancestry.
By the way, given that it has been brought up as a topic, it sounds new to me that there is autosomal similarity between Siciliians (and Greek islanders I presume) and Jews (I presume you are talking especially about ashkenazi): though they often overlap in 2D PCAs all the papers I've read point to a very significant autosomal difference between them (always talking about an European perspective: Jews still cluster closer to Europe than to the Near East), first because ashkenazi results around 40%-60% Levant_BA(I think there's no need to link the commonly known study but it is a good wont to always link one's sources, https://journals.plos.org/plosgeneti...l.pgen.1006644 ) whereas Sicilians have none; secondly because by FST Sicilians (taking the italian americans of southern origins as a good proxy for Sicilians, and it is very likely that some are of Sicilian origins, https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2730349/ ; also this: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/art...PMC2211542/#s2 ) seem closer to Germans and even eastern europeans than to ashkenazi jews ( to be thorough, I have some doubts regarding Irish because the Irish community in America had high rates of intermarriages, as far as I know, but Germans would have wedded regularly Englishmen I suppose, so I take the German american results as a good proxy for Germans from Germany); even if it is possible that the results would be different today I don't think it is plausible that they would turn out completely wrong ( let's say that maybe South Italians are by FST closer to AJ than Germans but almost certainly not closer to AJ than to other Italians or south Europeans).
It is true that in vahaduo the distance results much lower but between professional papers (though a bit old, but I haven't found recent) and the rest I think the former deserves more trustworthiness.
I agree with Angela that it is certain that Phoenician left some traces in Sicily, but that would amount to some Y lineages and it doesn't seem plausible to expect they left a traceable autosomal impact given the nature of their presence (only an Emporium and some merchants, what you'd expect from the so-called "mercantile empire" of Carthage), but only accurate studies could have the last word.
Good observation regarding Palermotrapani's results, but I think that the 6.4 British Roman gladiator (whose autosomal profile seemed from Jordan if I recall correctly) is what captures the 4-5% north african-like admixture in Sicilians: given that south Levantines are (much) closer and similar genetically to Europeans it isn't a mystery that it results a little tad higher than true north african-like admixture in Sicilians. About the other model I don't think it is much accurate.
As a last word, a "subjective" clarification of intentions, because I have the inkling that this might be causing some mistunderstanding: you are jewish, so it might be that you take my or others' refutation of Levantine ancestry in Sicilians and/or other south Italians as an "insult" towards part of your ancestry, as if we acted because there's something wrong with it. Speaking of me, but I think what I am going to say can apply to the others, the cause isn't that bit it is just that I don't see any evidence whatsoever for it in the literature; I'd lie if I said that it doesn't bother me at all when I read the usual lies spread by anthrofora regarding south Italians and Levantine ancestry, but what irks me in those cases are the intentions ( "south Italians aren't really European and ought to be kicked out of Europe" kind of discourses), but I have already said I know it isn't your case.
A fortiori, if I wanted to reduce as much the "exotic" ancestry in Sicilians I'd wish to swap the north african-like admixture with Levantine one, since the latter is significantly similar to the "average" European autosomal profile, but my point is that the former is plausible ( and supported by the literature) given Sicily's geographic position and history, whereas the latter not.
40-60% bronze age look very high to me
i think more in the 30 % levant bronze age would be the right number
here is mine :
Target: Adam
Distance: 0.3357% / 0.3356617328.4 Minoan_Lasithi_I0070 21.1 Levant_BA 18.0 Bell_Beaker 7.9 Hungary_IronAge 6.6 Corded_Ware_Estonia 5.4 Armenia_MLBA 3.1 Satsurblia_CHG 3.0 Natufian 2.1 Kotias_CHG 1.4 Minoan_Odigitria_I9131 1.1 MiddleDorset_Arctic 1.0 Alberstedt_LN 0.9 Armenia_EBA
Target: Adam
Distance: 0.3357% / 0.3356617328.4 Minoan_Lasithi_I0070 21.1 Levant_BA 18.0 Bell_Beaker 7.9 Hungary_IronAge 6.6 Corded_Ware_Estonia 5.4 Armenia_MLBA 3.1 Satsurblia_CHG 3.0 Natufian 2.1 Kotias_CHG 1.4 Minoan_Odigitria_I9131 1.1 MiddleDorset_Arctic 1.0 Alberstedt_LN 0.9 Armenia_EBA
p.s
i am 1/4 bulgarian so that could effect the results a little bit ( hungary iron age+ corded ware estonia)
and 1/4 mizrahi that could be the showing (chg allells + armenia MLB)
KingJohn/Leopoldo: First off, I agree with what Leopoldo is saying and I agree, not to put words in Leopoldo's mouth, that much of what is driving this particular thread is who claims the Myceneans, just like the ancient Romans, etc. Second, and this is largely, again in my opinion much of what goes on in these blogs related to DNA discussions is driven by WASP ideology in the USA and more recently the Nordicist who long argued that Ancient Greece and Rome were North West or Northern European civilizations. I heard this first hand growing up in the 1970's when the BBC shows on Ancient Rome would run on PBS Masterpiece theatre and listening to some of the Country Club WASP kids, you would think the Romans spoke the BBC's Received Pronunciation. Finally, Kingjohn I have always enjoyed your post and respect them and you are always someone who I read.
So let me be clear my posts are not in any way intended to be directed at you. I want to be clear. However, I will admit that given my child hood days I do enjoy posting my close genetic affinity with the Ancient Greek and Roman samples. So in light of my paragraph above, I think you are smart enough to figure out the rest.
a full cretan
mdlp k11 values in vahaduo
Target: crete
Distance: 0.2291% / 0.2290943329.5 Minoan_Lasithi_I0070 13.8 Levant_BA 13.2 Bell_Beaker 9.5 Minoan_Odigitria_I9131 8.3 Armenia_EBA 7.9 Corded_Ware_Estonia 6.8 Satsurblia_CHG 2.8 British_Roman 2.7 Minoan_Lasithi_I9005 2.5 Mycenaean_I9041 0.9 Ancient_Australian 0.8 Botocudo_Amerindian 0.8 Kotias_CHG 0.4 Natufian 0.1 Minoan_Odigitria_I9127
Target: crete
Distance: 0.2291% / 0.2290943329.5 Minoan_Lasithi_I0070 13.8 Levant_BA 13.2 Bell_Beaker 9.5 Minoan_Odigitria_I9131 8.3 Armenia_EBA 7.9 Corded_Ware_Estonia 6.8 Satsurblia_CHG 2.8 British_Roman 2.7 Minoan_Lasithi_I9005 2.5 Mycenaean_I9041 0.9 Ancient_Australian 0.8 Botocudo_Amerindian 0.8 Kotias_CHG 0.4 Natufian 0.1 Minoan_Odigitria_I9127
Last edited by kingjohn; 28-02-21 at 15:42.
Can this Levant admixture be separated into 2 parts ?
ie....lebanon levant was still under the Hittites up to 1100BC and still spoke luwian until 600BC
israel levant was phoenician and philistine lands
so, can 2 different levant admixtures be done ?
Fathers mtdna ... T2b17
Grandfather mtdna ... T1a1e
Sons mtdna ... K1a4
Mum paternal line ... R1b-S8172
Grandmum paternal side ... I1-Y33791
Wife paternal line ... R1a-Z282
Torzio: Eurogenes K13 has the ancient Sidon Samples which are from what would be the Phoenician era are close to it. These samples are from about 1700 BC or 3,700 years ago. So I think these samples would be a good proxy for Phoenicians that started the Pheonician civilization which seems to appear in the written records of the Egyptians shortly after, around 1500 BC.
So it this sidon sample a Phoenician due to some type of phoenician trading post or was it a person under hittite rule
we know by history , that the hittite-egyptian border was still 10km south of Kadesh.......see map below
this border remained in place until the demise of the Hittites
Syrian-lebaon border Kadesh is spelt
Qadesh - Tell Nebi Mend
Torzio: I think the Egyptians sent trading merchants to that area around 1,500 BC and that is when their were contacts between Ancient Egyptians at that time and the ancient Phoenicians and thus appearing in the Egyptian texts. The Phoenician territory was more coastal along what is modern Syria and Lebanon to modern Northern Israel, with coastal Lebanon being the core of the territory, consistent with them being traders using shipping and sea lanes for trading, (i.e. Sea Peoples so to speak).
I think the proper term for the border was
Qadesh - Tell Nebi Mend and Not Kadesh ..............the battle was fought at Kadesh, who knows
Torzio: I really don't know about the genetic affinity of those Sidon samples. I need to go find the paper that analyzed them. All I am suggesting is that they can provide a reasonable proxy for the genetic admixture or genetic profile of peoples in that area at that time including not only Phoenicians, but Canaanites, Samaritans, etc.
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