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Thread: Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

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    Torzio: Here is an article that focused specifically on the Sidon Samples. I have not read this paper but I think I will check it out. A quick read of the abstract indicates that the ancient Greeks referred to the Canaanites as Phoenicians so assuming the ancient Greeks were accurate, it suggest these ancient Sidon samples are a reasonable source to try to capture Phoenician ancestry vs. other ancestry further North in the Levant, say Hittites, etc.

    https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...02929717302768
    Last edited by Palermo Trapani; 27-02-21 at 23:11. Reason: clarification

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    I think the levant bronze age in mdlp k11
    Is based on jordan bronze age rather than sidon bronze age ...
    ( but i might be wrong )
    ancestery :
    mostly western jewish here is the overlapp with south europe[U]

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    ..,the british roman 15.9% is realy a levantine gladiator from york
    so this could be levantine influence .... ‘
    Vahaduo MDLP K11 British Roman:

    Target: British_Roman
    Distance: 2.8738% / 2.87381497
    84.2 Levant_BA
    10.0 Armenia_MLBA
    3.9 Ancient_Neandertal
    1.0 Satsurblia_CHG
    0.9 Iran_Chalcolithic

    Target: Duarte
    Distance: 0.1912% / 0.19121953
    19.8 Bell_Beaker
    13.3 GermanStuttgart_LBK
    12.1 Bell_Beaker_Czech
    9.0 Samara_HG
    5.2 GermanStuttgart_LBK
    5.1 Greek_Neolithic
    5.1 Levant_BA
    4.8 Baltic_LBA
    4.8 LBK_EN
    2.7 GoyetQ53_1_Gravettian
    2.4 Minoan_Lasithi_I0070
    2.1 Natufian
    1.8 Denisovan
    1.6 Tyrolean_Iceman_EN
    1.5 Ancient_Australian
    1.4 Salzmuende_MN
    1.3 Neandertal_Altai
    1.2 Ancient_Denisova
    1.2 Hungary_CA
    1.1 AfontovaGora3_Paleolithic
    0.8 Halberstadt_LBA
    0.7 Neandertal_Mezmaiskaya
    0.4 Ancient_Neandertal
    0.4 Levant_N
    0.1 Clovis_Amerindian
    0.1 Esperstedt_MN

    Target: British_Roman
    Distance: 2.8889% / 2.88891241 | ADC: 0.25x RC
    83.4 Levant_BA
    6.7 Armenia_LBA
    6.3 Iran_Chalcolithic
    3.6 Denisovan

    Target: Duarte
    Distance: 1.9604% / 1.96038514 | ADC: 0.25x RC
    43.3 Maros_BA
    24.7 Crete_Armenoi_I9123
    16.6 Bell_Beaker_Czech
    9.6 Levant_BA
    5.8 Mota_EastAfrica
    Genomic signals of migration and continuity in Britain before the Anglo-Saxons

    “The European ancestral component predominates in the majority of ancient samples (which show similar profiles to modern northwestern Europeans), whereas 3DRIF-26 again shows a majority West Asian/Middle Eastern component.”



    https://static-content.springer.com/...ESM417_ESM.pdf

    https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms10326#MOESM417


    Last edited by Duarte; 01-03-21 at 16:48.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Duarte View Post
    Vahaduo MDLP K11 British Roman:

    Target: British_Roman
    Distance: 2.8738% / 2.87381497
    84.2 Levant_BA
    10.0 Armenia_MLBA
    3.9 Ancient_Neandertal
    1.0 Satsurblia_CHG
    0.9 Iran_Chalcolithic

    Target: Duarte
    Distance: 0.1912% / 0.19121953
    19.8 Bell_Beaker
    13.3 GermanStuttgart_LBK
    12.1 Bell_Beaker_Czech
    9.0 Samara_HG
    5.2 GermanStuttgart_LBK
    5.1 Greek_Neolithic
    5.1 Levant_BA
    4.8 Baltic_LBA
    4.8 LBK_EN
    2.7 GoyetQ53_1_Gravettian
    2.4 Minoan_Lasithi_I0070
    2.1 Natufian
    1.8 Denisovan
    1.6 Tyrolean_Iceman_EN
    1.5 Ancient_Australian
    1.4 Salzmuende_MN
    1.3 Neandertal_Altai
    1.2 Ancient_Denisova
    1.2 Hungary_CA
    1.1 AfontovaGora3_Paleolithic
    0.8 Halberstadt_LBA
    0.7 Neandertal_Mezmaiskaya
    0.4 Ancient_Neandertal
    0.4 Levant_N
    0.1 Clovis_Amerindian
    0.1 Esperstedt_MN

    Target: British_Roman
    Distance: 2.8889% / 2.88891241 | ADC: 0.25x RC
    83.4 Levant_BA
    6.7 Armenia_LBA
    6.3 Iran_Chalcolithic
    3.6 Denisovan

    Target: Duarte
    Distance: 1.9604% / 1.96038514 | ADC: 0.25x RC
    43.3 Maros_BA
    24.7 Crete_Armenoi_I9123
    16.6 Bell_Beaker_Czech
    9.6 Levant_BA
    5.8 Mota_EastAfrica
    Genomic signals of migration and continuity in Britain before the Anglo-Saxons

    “The European ancestral component predominates in the majority of ancient samples (which show similar profiles to modern northwestern Europeans), whereas 3DRIF-26 again shows a majority West Asian/Middle Eastern component.”



    https://static-content.springer.com/...6_MOESM417_ESM.pdf

    https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms10326#MOESM417


    yes he was a gladiator found in york
    a cool dude he belonged to haplogroup j2
    and autosomally was different from the other gladiators
    might have been north egyptian or nabataeans background

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    @KingJohn,

    Ancient Cretans are not from the Levant.

    Crete for a time was influenced by the Moors, in the Middle Ages.

    The population history of Crete can be traced to the early Neolithic when the island was colonized by farmers from Anatolia who established in Knossos, at about 7000 B.C.E., one of the first Neolithic settlements in Europe (Evans, 1994); other Neolithic settlements were subsequently established all over Crete (Tomkins, 2008). These Neolithic settlers and subsequent waves of Neolithic migrants (Broodbank & Strasser, 1991; Cherry, 1981; Nowicki, 2008; Weinberg, 1965) established the first advanced European civilization, the Minoan civilization, which flourished in Crete from 3000 to about 1450 B.C.E. (Evans, 1921). The island was subsequently conquered by the Myceneans of mainland Greece (Bennet, 2011; Chadwick, 1976; deFidio, 2008) who ruled from around 1450 to 1100 B.C.E. Homer (1650) describes Crete as a populous island with 90 cities inhabited by several tribes: the Achaeans, who correspond to the people now called Myceneans (Bennet, 2011; Schofield, 2007); the Pelasgians who were the pre‐Hellenic population of the Helladic space (Herodotus, 1999; Strabo, 2006); the Eteocretans (Cretans of the old stock); the Kydonians; and the Dorians (Strabo, 2006). Eteocretans and Kydonians were considered to be autochthonous Cretans while the other tribes originated from Greece (Strabo, 2006). There is little of significance coming from Crete during the classical times other than the frequent wars between the city‐states (Detorakis, 2015). Following the Hellenistic period during which there is no record of population migrations to Crete, the island was conquered in 69 B.C.E. by the Romans (Sanders, 1982). The almost 400 years of Roman occupation was followed by about 500 years of relatively peaceful rule by the Byzantines (Tsougarakis, 1988) until Crete fell in 827 C.E. to Arab exiles from Andalusia (Brooks, 1913; Christides, 1984; Detorakis, 2015; Vassiliev, 1980). The Arab Emirate of Crete was frequently raided the Aegean and Eastern Mediterranean, but after 134 years of Arab rule, the island was recaptured in 961 C.E. by the Byzantines (Norwich, 1998; Vassiliev, 1980). The 243 years of the second Byzantine rule ended when the Byzantine Empire fell to the Francs and the Venetians of the Fourth Crusade. The Venetians purchased the island in 1204 C.E. from the crusader Boniface of Montferrat; they ruled Crete for 465 years and established a feudal system that provoked several revolutions of the population (Detorakis, 2015; Xanthoudidis, 1939). From 1645 to 1669, Ottomans and Venetians fought for 24 years over Crete and the island was captured by the Ottomans who ruled for 267 years during which the Cretans revolted several times (Detorakis, 2015). The island gained its autonomy in 1889 and was unified with Greece in 1913.

    https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/ahg.12328
    This is why people should read genetic studies, corroborated with historical references, rather than making false assumptions with amateur calculators. Also, you are running those calculators without any ADC penalty, so it is producing nonsensical results.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    The Moors were mostly North African Berbers, which is why they could be modeled with bringing a Levant_BA-like contribution. Because the Levant was strongly influenced by the lasting impact of the Natufians, who were descended from ancient North Africans. Also Arabs had invaded North Africa several times as well. Ergo, this so called "Levant_BA" influence, is from Moors brought in the Middle Ages, not ancient times. The Ancient Greeks, and Romans were not Levantine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    @KingJohn,

    Ancient Cretans are not from the Levant.

    Crete for a time was influenced by the Moors, in the Middle Ages.



    This is why people should read genetic studies, corroborated with historical references, rather than making false assumptions with amateur calculators. Also, you are running those calculators without any ADC penalty, so it is producing nonsensical results.

    Ok the ancient minoan
    Didn't carry this signiture
    But modern cretans and other greek islanders do

    ..
    Could be the moors influence as you mention
    Is why we see it

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Cretans and Sicilians are far closer genetically to the ancient Greeks. A trivial amount of admixture from the middle ages does not negate that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Cretans and Sicilians are far closer genetically to the ancient Greeks. A trivial amount of admixture from the middle ages does not negate that.

    I know but it is still there even if in low %

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    I know but it is still there even if in low %
    And of course it doesn't matter. This is just about being accurate.

    Also, just like it shouldn't matter that Ashkenazi are more European, than they are Semitic/Levantine.


    In the PCA of Crete vs Europe, the Cretans overlap with three populations: the Peloponneseans, the Sicilians and the Ashkenazi Jews (see Figures 4a, S17, and S18). Southern European and Mediterranean ancestry of the Ashkenazi Jews has also been demonstrated before (Atzmon et al., 2010; Behar et al., 2010; Bauchet et al., 2007; Price et al., 2008; Seldin et al., 2006; Tian et al., 2008). Furthermore, we find in both PCA and ADMIXTURE analysis, that the Ashkenazi are more similar to the Cretans than to the two Levantine Semitic populations. One possible explanation is that this relation might reveal a common Mediterranean ancestry that the Cretan and Ashkenazi populations share.

    https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/ahg.12328

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    Ok the ancient minoan
    Didn't carry this signiture
    But modern cretans and other greek islanders do
    ..
    Could be the moors influence as you mention
    Is why we see it
    Could be, as Jovialis is pointing out, that it is because you are using amateur calculators and in addition using them incorrectly.


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    The Moors were mostly North African Berbers, which is why they could be modeled with bringing a Levant_BA-like contribution. Because the Levant was strongly influenced by the lasting impact of the Natufians, who were descended from ancient North Africans. Also Arabs had invaded North Africa several times as well. Ergo, this so called "Levant_BA" influence, is from Moors brought in the Middle Ages, not ancient times. The Ancient Greeks, and Romans were not Levantine.
    Do they miss you at anthrogenica even though they banned you?

    So, they have to come here to debate you? :)

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    Jovialis/King John: I went to the K13 Eurogenes on Vahaduo, which has really added lots of samples to that K13 Ancient Spreadsheet. I just ran my K13 coordinates against the ancient Levant and North African samples that I found on there (and included the Gladiator from England who was from the Levant). So nothing close, but closest among them are the Sidon Samples which are close to what was the Phoenician territory and from the time period when the Phoenicians were at their peak of power. So Phoenician/Carthaginian period in Sicily, Roman period (Imperial) with migrants from the Levant and later Saracen_Muslim period) you in my opinion pretty much get Sicily, and all of Southern Italy, pretty much where it was during the Greek/Roman period and no later than Imperial Roman period which is Sicilians, Southern Italians, etc plot with the Ancient Romans from that period (Antonio et al 2019) and when you move 2,000 years later, Parolo et al 2015 (Figure 1), Sazzini et al 2016 (Figure 2) , Raveane et al 2019 (Figure 1). Results are presented with Gradiant of 100 for clearer resolution.

    Distance to: PalermoTrapani
    28.66420241 Sidon_BA_ERS1790729_
    29.27878925 Sidon_BA_ERS1790730_
    30.49686869 65_Lebanon_Canaanite_MBA.SG_3650_ybp
    30.56379067 KEB_4_(Morocco_5000_BP_keb.4_Morocco_378003650y.ol d
    31.01886200 63_Lebanon_Canaanite_MBA.SG_3650_ybp
    31.13120942 Sidon_BA_ERS1790732_
    31.78487691 54_Lebanon_Canaanite_MBA.SG_3770_ybp
    32.46734359 Sidon_BA_ERS1790733_
    32.52556533 JK2134_Egypt_New_Kingdom_3250_ybp
    32.60410710 Sidon_733_Lebanon_
    33.21028907 Sidon_731_Lebanon_
    33.22275877 Sidon_BA_ERS1790731_
    34.61362882 3DT26_England_Roman_MiddleEast.SG_1750_ybp
    35.85934048 I1699_Jordan_PPNC_8700_ybp
    36.04020116 I0867_Israel_PPNB_8700_ybp
    36.08874340 JK2888_Egypt_Hellenistic_2000_ybp
    36.14046071 I0867_LevantN_
    36.70365922 I1710_Jordan_PPNB_9580_ybp
    36.99612818 JK2911_Egypt_Late_Period_2449_ybp
    37.00179860 I1707_Jordan_PPNB_9582_ybp
    37.78274739 46_Lebanon_Canaanite_MBA.SG_3750_ybp
    38.54688185 I1704_Jordan_PPNB_9202_ybp
    38.93668579 jk2911_Egypt_769_560_BC_2_
    39.14742903 I1730_Jordan_EBA_4344_ybp
    40.30247511 I1705_Jordan_EBA_4032_ybp
    41.28234611 I1706_Jordan_EBA_4345_ybp
    42.52424838 Natufian_merged_M041601_
    47.67782189 I1072_Israel_Raqefet_M_Natufian_12750_ybp
    47.68746062 3DT16_England_Roman.SG_1750_ybp
    51.58530702 iam_5_N_Africa_5199_5176y_old_
    Last edited by Palermo Trapani; 02-03-21 at 16:57. Reason: additional information

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Do they miss you at anthrogenica even though they banned you?

    So, they have to come here to debate you? :)
    It is possible. But no matter, because the facts remain the same.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Could be, as Jovialis is pointing out, that it is because you are using amateur calculators and in addition using them incorrectly.


    Or that people here don't like
    The levant and they disregard influence from there even if minor 5-10 % ....

    P.s
    I didn't claim mainland greeks have this influence
    But modern day greek islanders and sicilians do
    And mdlp k11 is not by davidski it is by vadim different person....

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    Excuse me, but nobody has disregarded there has been some input. Hence my point about the Moors. This impassioned accusation is totally inappropriate.

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    My take on this is that people want to deal with facts and try to stay with that the Academic research indicates with respect to DNA and genetic relationships. I use all these amateur calculators just like anyone else. However, I have never relied 100% on any one of them. I always run as many of them as possible and see who the amateur calculator results converge with the published DNA literature. So I just used Eurogenes K13 Ancient, which in the past has not been the best for Southern Europeans, particularly Greeks, Southern Italians (including Sicilians). However, I must say the Ancient samples now in the K13 Ancient is really impressive. So I did just 2 runs. The first I just used source data from Anatolian Neolithic (the Source for EEF) and Bronze Age and Neolithic Age Lazio Samples from Antonio et al 2019. So just with the source data below, I can get a 4 way admixture model and distance of 2.7.

    Bar31_Anatolia_Early_Neolithic_,16.28,0.00,41.45,0 .00,34.40,6.14,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.44,1.29
    Bar8_Anatolia_N.SG_8071_ybp,10.93,0.00,45.07,0.00, 40.17,3.82,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00
    Bon002_Anatolia_N_Boncuklu.SG_10078_ybp,17.64,0.40 ,44.91,0.00,33.21,2.73,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,1.12,0. 00,0.00
    Boncuklu002,20.71,0.00,42.81,0.00,30.75,4.24,0.00, 0.00,0.00,0.00,1.01,0.00,0.48
    I0707_Anatolia_N_8092_ybp,7.33,0.00,46.18,0.00,41. 13,5.35,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00
    I0708_Anatolia_N_8097_ybp,7.25,0.00,43.57,0.08,44. 29,4.81,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00
    I0709_Anatolia_N_8086_ybp,8.75,0.00,46.20,0.00,40. 49,4.57,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00
    I0723_Anatolia_N_7870_ybp,6.40,0.00,47.49,0.00,41. 94,4.11,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.07,0.00,0.00
    I0724_Anatolia_N_7950_ybp,12.29,0.00,47.43,0.00,35 .97,4.05,0.00,0.00,0.26,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00
    I0726_Anatolia_N_7950_ybp,9.55,0.00,46.27,0.00,37. 57,6.60,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00
    I0727_Anatolia_N_7950_ybp,1.40,0.00,51.31,0.00,41. 58,5.70,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00
    I0736_Anatolia_N_8300_ybp,9.05,0.00,43.92,0.00,42. 32,4.71,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00
    I0744_Anatolia_N_8273_ybp,7.26,0.00,47.78,0.00,42. 05,2.91,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00
    I0745_Anatolia_N_8251_ybp,10.49,0.00,42.35,0.00,39 .56,7.54,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.06,0.00,0.00
    I1096_Anatolia_N_8300_ybp,10.55,0.00,43.86,0.00,41 .95,3.64,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00
    I1097_Anatolia_N_8288_ybp,5.09,0.00,47.04,0.00,44. 06,3.82,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00
    I1098_Anatolia_N_8288_ybp,8.97,0.00,40.63,0.00,45. 08,5.32,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00
    I1099_Anatolia_N_8300_ybp,11.33,0.00,44.13,0.00,41 .04,3.50,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00
    I1100_Anatolia_N_8300_ybp,6.96,0.00,48.01,0.00,40. 77,3.84,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.42,0.00,0.00
    I1101_Anatolia_N_8300_ybp,10.27,0.00,43.37,0.00,42 .30,4.06,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00
    I1102_Anatolia_N_8300_ybp,11.70,0.00,45.89,0.00,36 .40,5.80,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.11,0.00,0.10
    I1103_Anatolia_N_8300_ybp,5.63,0.00,46.90,0.00,39. 72,7.71,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.04,0.00,0.00
    I1580_Anatolia_N_8195_ybp,7.32,0.00,47.45,0.00,38. 61,6.62,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00
    I1581_Anatolia_N_8254_ybp,6.99,0.00,48.39,0.00,38. 11,6.51,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00
    I1583_Anatolia_N_8281_ybp,4.17,0.00,48.75,0.00,41. 73,5.35,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00
    I1584_Anatolia_C_5776_ybp,9.90,0.00,24.65,25.27,35 .62,2.63,1.46,0.00,0.48,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00
    Tep002_Anatolia_N_Tepecik_Ciftlik.SG_8585_ybp,7.21 ,0.00,41.68,0.00,43.08,8.04,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0. 00,0.00,0.00
    Tep002_Tepecik_Ciftlik_level_5_c_6500_BCE_8500_BP_ ,12.96,0.00,33.37,1.13,39.75,9.07,0.00,0.00,0.44,0 .00,0.00,2.71,0.54
    Tep003_Anatolia_N_Tepecik_Ciftlik.SG_8505_ybp,4.96 ,0.00,32.53,11.24,45.49,5.78,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0 .00,0.00,0.00
    Tep004_Anatolia_N_Tepecik_Ciftlik.SG_8295_ybp,6.08 ,0.00,34.12,0.84,45.53,13.43,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0 .00,0.00,0.00
    Tepecik002_Tepecik002_,12.96,0.00,33.37,1.13,39.75 ,9.07,0.00,0.00,0.44,0.00,0.00,2.71,0.54
    R10_Abruzzo_Neolithic_Farmer_Italy,14.30,0.00,46.3 6,0.00,34.52,4.82,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0. 00
    R2_Abruzzo_Neolithic_Farmer_Italy,13.37,0.00,49.33 ,0.00,33.67,3.63,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.0 0
    R3_Abruzzo_Neolithic_Farmer_Italy,12.78,0.00,48.34 ,0.00,34.59,4.29,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.0 0
    R8_Abruzzo_Neolithic_Farmer_Italy,15.43,0.00,46.33 ,0.00,35.46,2.78,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.0 0
    R6_Abruzzo_Neolithic_Farmer_Italy,32.18,0.88,53.51 ,0.00,11.47,1.79,0.00,0.00,0.13,0.00,0.04,0.00,0.0 0
    R9_Abruzzo_Neolithic_Farmer_Italy,10.08,0.00,46.86 ,0.00,38.39,4.67,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.0 0
    R1_Abruzzo_Teramo_Late_Bronze_Age_Italy,28.96,13.5 9,21.58,9.88,19.66,3.43,0.00,0.00,1.43,0.99,0.48,0 .00,0.00



    Target: PalermoTrapani
    Distance: 2.7970% / 2.79697573 | R6P | ADC: 0.25x RC
    45.0 R1_Abruzzo_Teramo_Late_Bronze_Age_Italy
    29.0 I1584_Anatolia_C_5776_ybp
    13.5 Tep002_Tepecik_Ciftlik_level_5_c_6500_BCE_8500_BP_
    12.5 Tepecik002_Tepecik002_

    If I use all 1,784 ancient Samples in the K13 Ancient, I can get a distance of 0.6742

    Target: PalermoTrapani
    Distance: 0.6742% / 0.67422881 | ADC: 0.25x RC
    54.1 SZ40_Hungary_Langobard_1442_ybp
    14.8 R131_Lazio_Rome_Roman_Imperial
    14.3 I9033_Mycenaean_1352_bc_M_
    7.1 R1283_Lazio_Rome_Medieval_Italy
    7.1 R35_Lazio_Rome_Italy_Late_Antiquity
    2.6 R132_Lazio_Rome_Roman_Imperial


    So again, these various calculators to me are sensitive to the source samples included (do they capture ancestries for different populations accurately, or Not?), the estimation technique used (Statistical estimation), etc.

  18. #2643
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    Or that people here don't like
    The levant and they disregard influence from there even if minor 5-10 % ....
    P.s
    I didn't claim mainland greeks have this influence
    But modern day greek islanders and sicilians do
    And mdlp k11 is not by davidski it is by vadim different person....
    It's a junk calculator for Italians. Doesn't get me any closer than a 5 in genetic distance. Even Eurogenes does better than that.

    As for not "liking" Moorish influence in Sicily, I estimated such influence in Sicily at around perhaps seven percent long before you ever showed up here, based, by the way, on looking at both yDna and mtDna. Check for it; you'll find it.

    So get your facts straight and stop throwing around of false accusations.

  19. #2644
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    Or that people here don't like
    The levant and they disregard influence from there even if minor 5-10 % ....

    P.s
    I didn't claim mainland greeks have this influence
    But modern day greek islanders and sicilians do
    And mdlp k11 is not by davidski it is by vadim different person....
    Personally I have already explained my view, but no genetic paper shows this minor influence (precisely from the Levant) in either Sicilians or Greek islanders, and as to specify, Greek islanders aren't so different at all from (some) mainland Greeks given the distance between southern Peloponnesians (with whom Sicilians plot, a result known since 2014 and confirmed by the peloponnese paper, https://www.pnas.org/content/111/25/9211) and Greek islanders is small. so what Greek islanders have likely also Greek mainlanders have.

    It is far, far more likely that the Levant-like admixture in Sicilians in those models is north african (pre islamic-trade SSA gene flow), and actually I do not trust the samples you find in online calculators, especially when it comes to certain peoples that have been "trolled" relentlessly during the years (still now go take a look at the "sicilian" and "south Italian" results at the 23andMe subreddit from accounts who only post about south Italians and greek Islanders and talk about their having 50% (sic) "WANA" admixture). Naturally I hold my skepticism because of that trend and because of the discrepancy between online results and those of academic studies ( not that every study is the Truth, but usually they are more trustworthy and you can still say what they got wrong because of a certain transparency, whereas in the calculators I've seen online I can't get to know whether the samples are genuine or not.

    According to the literature, south Italians don't have any levantine admixture and Sicilians and some Calabrese have some north african admixture, while as for Greek islanders I haven't seen many studies but judging from the results of the Cretan paper they don't seem to harbor any such ancestry (at least it wasn't detected, I recall, but if I am mistaken feel free to correct me of course).
    The only paper I recall that supports this view is the "east med continuum" paper by Sarno, but it had serious flaws, as you can check if you check the "near east" label that spans populations from Anatolia to Jordan, so I think that the "near east" part in the admixtures was anatolian-like rather than Levantine-like.

  20. #2645
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leopoldo Leone View Post
    Personally I have already explained my view, but no genetic paper shows this minor influence (precisely from the Levant) in either Sicilians or Greek islanders, and as to specify, Greek islanders aren't so different at all from (some) mainland Greeks given the distance between southern Peloponnesians (with whom Sicilians plot, a result known since 2014 and confirmed by the peloponnese paper, https://www.pnas.org/content/111/25/9211) and Greek islanders is small. so what Greek islanders have likely also Greek mainlanders have.

    It is far, far more likely that the Levant-like admixture in Sicilians in those models is north african (pre islamic-trade SSA gene flow), and actually I do not trust the samples you find in online calculators, especially when it comes to certain peoples that have been "trolled" relentlessly during the years (still now go take a look at the "sicilian" and "south Italian" results at the 23andMe subreddit from accounts who only post about south Italians and greek Islanders and talk about their having 50% (sic) "WANA" admixture). Naturally I hold my skepticism because of that trend and because of the discrepancy between online results and those of academic studies ( not that every study is the Truth, but usually they are more trustworthy and you can still say what they got wrong because of a certain transparency, whereas in the calculators I've seen online I can't get to know whether the samples are genuine or not.

    According to the literature, south Italians don't have any levantine admixture and Sicilians and some Calabrese have some north african admixture, while as for Greek islanders I haven't seen many studies but judging from the results of the Cretan paper they don't seem to harbor any such ancestry (at least it wasn't detected, I recall, but if I am mistaken feel free to correct me of course).
    The only paper I recall that supports this view is the "east med continuum" paper by Sarno, but it had serious flaws, as you can check if you check the "near east" label that spans populations from Anatolia to Jordan, so I think that the "near east" part in the admixtures was anatolian-like rather than Levantine-like.
    Indeed, the Sarno (2017) paper identifies traces of Post-Neolithic Caucasus and Near-Eastern related ancestries. We already know of the Caucasus-related ancestry among the Minoans and Mycenaeans and the absence of Near-Eastern ancestry among them, but a Near-Eastern trace among the modern populations of the "Mediterranean genetic continuum" would suggest a more recent admixture event. At least i thought so initially, until i saw that in their admixture projection of ancient individuals that Near-Eastern component was also present in a similar/identical frequency among the Neolithic Anatolians, Eneolithic LBK, Eneolithic Hungary, etc., therefore i don't know why they refer to the Near-Eastern respective ancestry as Post-Neolithic when it appears to have been Neolithic or Eneolithic, and associated with the pre-IE farmers.

  21. #2646
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    Here is a reface of Achilles of the movie Troy, I made with the Mycenaean Griffin Warrior.

  22. #2647
    Regular Member blevins13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post




    Here is a reface of Achilles of the movie Troy, I made with the Mycenaean Griffin Warrior.
    His sword looks like Naue II.


    Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

  23. #2648
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    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    His sword looks like Naue II.


    Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum
    Well done.

  24. #2649
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post




    Here is a reface of Achilles of the movie Troy, I made with the Mycenaean Griffin Warrior.
    cool... He looks like Jimmy Page

    Inviato dal mio POT-LX1T utilizzando Tapatalk

  25. #2650
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    Here is a screen cap from the lecture video by Lazaridis on the admixture rates for the Eastern and Northern Model.



    I don't know about the Mycenaeans, particularly, but the Northern Model actually works well for my own personal genome, according to Maciamo's new and improved version of the the Dodecad K12b coordinates:


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