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Thread: Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cato View Post
    cool... He looks like Jimmy Page

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    I can see it

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    I can see it
    Jimmy Page!, good one. Shows there are some folks here with not only bright minds, but great taste in music. All we need now is an Ancient reconstruction to look like John Paul Jones, Robert Plant and the late John Bonham and we can have a new band, the Led Zeppelin Ancients or Ancient Led Zeppelin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post


    Here is a screen cap from the lecture video by Lazaridis on the admixture rates for the Eastern and Northern Model.



    I don't know about the Mycenaeans, particularly, but the Northern Model actually works well for my own personal genome, according to Maciamo's new and improved version of the the Dodecad K12b coordinates:

    Interesting, but from 2017.

    Lazaridis: “It could be some gradual arrival of migrants from steppe over a long time period that make the mainland somewhat different from Create”.


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    Hello, I have recently become very interested in Greek history (mostly with regards to Christianity). I've watched many YouTube videos recently and came across one that suggests that the Minoans were more similar to modern western/northern Europeans than to modern Greeks.

    Here is the video:

    [Moderated]


    The video cites the following study:

    nature.com/articles/ncomms2871

    and highlights the following figure:

    nature.com/articles/ncomms2871/tables/1

    Is is true that the Minoans are more similar to modern western/northern Europeans than to modern Greeks?
    Last edited by Jovialis; 30-04-21 at 05:06. Reason: YT channel associated with racism

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    Quote Originally Posted by benjaminfish View Post
    Hello, I have recently become very interested in Greek history (mostly with regards to Christianity). I've watched many YouTube videos recently and came across one that suggests that the Minoans were more similar to modern western/northern Europeans than to modern Greeks.

    Here is the video:

    [Moderated]

    The video cites the following study:

    nature.com/articles/ncomms2871

    and highlights the following figure:

    nature.com/articles/ncomms2871/tables/1

    Is is true that the Minoans are more similar to modern western/northern Europeans than to modern Greeks?
    No, Minoans are very far from Western/Northern Europeans. They do not even have steppe admixture in them. They are mostly Anatolian_N, with some Iran_N/CHG.
    Last edited by Jovialis; 30-04-21 at 04:57.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by benjaminfish View Post
    Hello, I have recently become very interested in Greek history (mostly with regards to Christianity). I've watched many YouTube videos recently and came across one that suggests that the Minoans were more similar to modern western/northern Europeans than to modern Greeks.

    Here is the video:

    [Moderated]

    The video cites the following study:

    nature.com/articles/ncomms2871

    and highlights the following figure:

    nature.com/articles/ncomms2871/tables/1

    Is is true that the Minoans are more similar to modern western/northern Europeans than to modern Greeks?
    FYI, this study is very old and is no longer viable. The main author of the study you cited, is also an author on the study this thread is based on.
    Last edited by Jovialis; 30-04-21 at 05:13.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    I have given you a warning, because you may not have known better. We cannot have content like this posted on our website. Not only is this person completely wrong, they are clearly biased:

    Jean-François Gariépy - Wikipedia

    If you would like to learn about ancient DNA, please read the various threads we have here on the studies made by actual geneticists. For example, the study this thread is based on is a good start.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    I have not read all posts here since a long enough time (lack of time) so I don't know if this study has been cired here. I found it in Eurogenes and give us/you the link; the little I've crossread seems senseful and not too surprising.
    https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...92867421003706

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    I have not read all posts here since a long enough time (lack of time) so I don't know if this study has been cired here. I found it in Eurogenes and give us/you the link; the little I've crossread seems senseful and not too surprising.
    https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...92867421003706
    It's being discussed here:
    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...117#post623117


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    OK! I found it today.

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    LBA Myceneans: Armenia versus Steppe-like gene flow

    The last phase of the BA is associated with a Late Helladic culture termed Mycenaean. Around 1,200 BCE, the Mycenaean civilization began to decline, the palaces were destroyed, the system of writing (Linear B) was abandoned, and their arts and crafts ceased. The causes of their decline are disputed (e.g., climatic change, invasions) (Middleton, 2020). Lazaridis et al., 2017 showed that Mycenaeans were quite distinct from present-day populations, but it remained unclear how they relate to EBA populations.
    Despite cultural similarity with the Helladic-Logkas-MBA individuals, analyses suggest that the Mycenaean-Peloponnese-LBA were quite distinct genetically, occupying a position in-between the Logkas and the EBA Aegean and the Minoan-Lasithi-MBA in MDS (Figure 2). Unlike the Logkas individuals, they carry a lower European-HG-like component in ADMIXTURE (Figure 3) and do not share significantly more alleles with Iran_N/CHG or EHG compared to Anatolia_N in the D-statistics (Figure S6). However, like the Helladic-Logkas-MBA, they share more alleles with Steppe_EMBA. Mycenaean-Peloponnese-LBA had previously been shown to be consistent with a qpWave/qpAdm model that either involved BA Steppe- or Armenian-related populations (Lazaridis et al., 2017). We recapitulated this result and we additionaly found that Mycenaean-Peloponnese-LBA data are also consisent with a model involving an EBA Aegean and Anatolia_N as source populations (Table 3). In contrast, the Helladic-Logkas-MBA require a Steppe-like source and cannot be explained with a simple model involving an Armenian-like source (Tables 3, S3, and S5).
    There are further alternative explanations consistent with the data. First, the Mycenaean-Peloponnese-LBA could be the descendants of populations closely related to the MBA Logkas population and to an EBA Aegean population—a 2-way admixture between populations related to Helladic-Logkas-MBA (∼21%–36%) and the Minoan_Odigitria_EMBA and Minoan_Lasithi_MBA (∼64%–79%). Similarly, a 2-way admixture between the Helladic-Logkas-MBA Log04 individual (∼34%–36%) and EBA Aegeans (∼64%–66%) could not be rejected (Table S3). Second, populations related to Armenia BA may have contributed to the Aegeans in a geographically localized fashion during the LBA or earlier (Table S5). This scenario was proposed in the archaeological literature (Drews, 1988) and would imply that the Mycenaeans would not have left much trace in individuals from later generations.


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    As a result, the genomic data could support both dominant linguistic theories explaining the emergence of Proto-Greek and the evolution of Indo-European languages (Gray et al., 2011). Namely, that these languages either originated in Anatolia (Renfrew, 1972, Renfrew, 1989, Renfrew, 2000) (correlating with the Anatolian and Caucasus-like genetic ancestries) or they originated in the Pontic-Caspian Steppe region (Anthony, 2010) (correlating with the Steppe-like ancestry). Future Mesolithic to BA genomes from Armenia and the Caucasus regions in general could help to further pinpoint the origins and the mode of gene flow into the Aegean and to better integrate the genomic data with the existing archaeological and linguistic evidence.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Palermo Trapani View Post
    Jimmy Page!, good one. Shows there are some folks here with not only bright minds, but great taste in music. All we need now is an Ancient reconstruction to look like John Paul Jones, Robert Plant and the late John Bonham and we can have a new band, the Led Zeppelin Ancients or Ancient Led Zeppelin.
    Led Zeppelin is already ancient .

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    Does anybody know any DNA studies of the Phrygians? Their language is a close relative to Ancient Greek so I want to know whether they are also genetic cousins.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    Led Zeppelin is already ancient .
    Not to me, I "Ramble On" over to youtube everyday and get the Lead out!

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