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Thread: Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cato View Post
    cool... He looks like Jimmy Page

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    I can see it

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    I can see it
    Jimmy Page!, good one. Shows there are some folks here with not only bright minds, but great taste in music. All we need now is an Ancient reconstruction to look like John Paul Jones, Robert Plant and the late John Bonham and we can have a new band, the Led Zeppelin Ancients or Ancient Led Zeppelin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post


    Here is a screen cap from the lecture video by Lazaridis on the admixture rates for the Eastern and Northern Model.



    I don't know about the Mycenaeans, particularly, but the Northern Model actually works well for my own personal genome, according to Maciamo's new and improved version of the the Dodecad K12b coordinates:

    Interesting, but from 2017.

    Lazaridis: “It could be some gradual arrival of migrants from steppe over a long time period that make the mainland somewhat different from Create”.


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    Hello, I have recently become very interested in Greek history (mostly with regards to Christianity). I've watched many YouTube videos recently and came across one that suggests that the Minoans were more similar to modern western/northern Europeans than to modern Greeks.

    Here is the video:

    [Moderated]


    The video cites the following study:

    nature.com/articles/ncomms2871

    and highlights the following figure:

    nature.com/articles/ncomms2871/tables/1

    Is is true that the Minoans are more similar to modern western/northern Europeans than to modern Greeks?
    Last edited by Jovialis; 30-04-21 at 05:06. Reason: YT channel associated with racism

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    Quote Originally Posted by benjaminfish View Post
    Hello, I have recently become very interested in Greek history (mostly with regards to Christianity). I've watched many YouTube videos recently and came across one that suggests that the Minoans were more similar to modern western/northern Europeans than to modern Greeks.

    Here is the video:

    [Moderated]

    The video cites the following study:

    nature.com/articles/ncomms2871

    and highlights the following figure:

    nature.com/articles/ncomms2871/tables/1

    Is is true that the Minoans are more similar to modern western/northern Europeans than to modern Greeks?
    No, Minoans are very far from Western/Northern Europeans. They do not even have steppe admixture in them. They are mostly Anatolian_N, with some Iran_N/CHG.
    Last edited by Jovialis; 30-04-21 at 04:57.

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    Quote Originally Posted by benjaminfish View Post
    Hello, I have recently become very interested in Greek history (mostly with regards to Christianity). I've watched many YouTube videos recently and came across one that suggests that the Minoans were more similar to modern western/northern Europeans than to modern Greeks.

    Here is the video:

    [Moderated]

    The video cites the following study:

    nature.com/articles/ncomms2871

    and highlights the following figure:

    nature.com/articles/ncomms2871/tables/1

    Is is true that the Minoans are more similar to modern western/northern Europeans than to modern Greeks?
    FYI, this study is very old and is no longer viable. The main author of the study you cited, is also an author on the study this thread is based on.
    Last edited by Jovialis; 30-04-21 at 05:13.

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    I have given you a warning, because you may not have known better. We cannot have content like this posted on our website. Not only is this person completely wrong, they are clearly biased:

    Jean-François Gariépy - Wikipedia

    If you would like to learn about ancient DNA, please read the various threads we have here on the studies made by actual geneticists. For example, the study this thread is based on is a good start.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    I have not read all posts here since a long enough time (lack of time) so I don't know if this study has been cired here. I found it in Eurogenes and give us/you the link; the little I've crossread seems senseful and not too surprising.
    https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...92867421003706

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    I have not read all posts here since a long enough time (lack of time) so I don't know if this study has been cired here. I found it in Eurogenes and give us/you the link; the little I've crossread seems senseful and not too surprising.
    https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...92867421003706
    It's being discussed here:
    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...117#post623117


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    OK! I found it today.

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    LBA Myceneans: Armenia versus Steppe-like gene flow

    The last phase of the BA is associated with a Late Helladic culture termed Mycenaean. Around 1,200 BCE, the Mycenaean civilization began to decline, the palaces were destroyed, the system of writing (Linear B) was abandoned, and their arts and crafts ceased. The causes of their decline are disputed (e.g., climatic change, invasions) (Middleton, 2020). Lazaridis et al., 2017 showed that Mycenaeans were quite distinct from present-day populations, but it remained unclear how they relate to EBA populations.
    Despite cultural similarity with the Helladic-Logkas-MBA individuals, analyses suggest that the Mycenaean-Peloponnese-LBA were quite distinct genetically, occupying a position in-between the Logkas and the EBA Aegean and the Minoan-Lasithi-MBA in MDS (Figure 2). Unlike the Logkas individuals, they carry a lower European-HG-like component in ADMIXTURE (Figure 3) and do not share significantly more alleles with Iran_N/CHG or EHG compared to Anatolia_N in the D-statistics (Figure S6). However, like the Helladic-Logkas-MBA, they share more alleles with Steppe_EMBA. Mycenaean-Peloponnese-LBA had previously been shown to be consistent with a qpWave/qpAdm model that either involved BA Steppe- or Armenian-related populations (Lazaridis et al., 2017). We recapitulated this result and we additionaly found that Mycenaean-Peloponnese-LBA data are also consisent with a model involving an EBA Aegean and Anatolia_N as source populations (Table 3). In contrast, the Helladic-Logkas-MBA require a Steppe-like source and cannot be explained with a simple model involving an Armenian-like source (Tables 3, S3, and S5).
    There are further alternative explanations consistent with the data. First, the Mycenaean-Peloponnese-LBA could be the descendants of populations closely related to the MBA Logkas population and to an EBA Aegean population—a 2-way admixture between populations related to Helladic-Logkas-MBA (∼21%–36%) and the Minoan_Odigitria_EMBA and Minoan_Lasithi_MBA (∼64%–79%). Similarly, a 2-way admixture between the Helladic-Logkas-MBA Log04 individual (∼34%–36%) and EBA Aegeans (∼64%–66%) could not be rejected (Table S3). Second, populations related to Armenia BA may have contributed to the Aegeans in a geographically localized fashion during the LBA or earlier (Table S5). This scenario was proposed in the archaeological literature (Drews, 1988) and would imply that the Mycenaeans would not have left much trace in individuals from later generations.


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    1 members found this post helpful.
    As a result, the genomic data could support both dominant linguistic theories explaining the emergence of Proto-Greek and the evolution of Indo-European languages (Gray et al., 2011). Namely, that these languages either originated in Anatolia (Renfrew, 1972, Renfrew, 1989, Renfrew, 2000) (correlating with the Anatolian and Caucasus-like genetic ancestries) or they originated in the Pontic-Caspian Steppe region (Anthony, 2010) (correlating with the Steppe-like ancestry). Future Mesolithic to BA genomes from Armenia and the Caucasus regions in general could help to further pinpoint the origins and the mode of gene flow into the Aegean and to better integrate the genomic data with the existing archaeological and linguistic evidence.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Palermo Trapani View Post
    Jimmy Page!, good one. Shows there are some folks here with not only bright minds, but great taste in music. All we need now is an Ancient reconstruction to look like John Paul Jones, Robert Plant and the late John Bonham and we can have a new band, the Led Zeppelin Ancients or Ancient Led Zeppelin.
    Led Zeppelin is already ancient .

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    Does anybody know any DNA studies of the Phrygians? Their language is a close relative to Ancient Greek so I want to know whether they are also genetic cousins.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    Led Zeppelin is already ancient .
    Not to me, I "Ramble On" over to youtube everyday and get the Lead out!

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    Considering most of the Ancient Greek texts are written after the Iron Age, it is quite possible that the Helladic and Cycladic people of the Early Bronze Age are the people the later Greeks would refer to as the 'Pelasgians'. The people with a lot of Steppe admixture residing in Thessaly and Epirus around 2000 B.C. were the proto-Hellenic speakers.

    This would make the Mycenaean Greeks largely Pelasgian. Even though they have already absorbed some waves of proto-Hellenes.

    We have to consider the fact that the Greeks after the Iron Age didn't have access to written material of the people who spoke Linear B. After all, they were using a different alphabet. In that respect, for the Classical Greeks there was some obscurity as to who the Mycenaeans Greeks really were. They had the knowledge that they spoke Greek, so perhaps they may have assumed they were entirely similar to themselves. Even though the classical Greeks may have had much more Steppe ancestry due to subsequent migrations.

    This is what Herodotus has to say:
    I am unable to state with certainty what language the Pelasgians spoke, but we could consider the speech of the Pelasgians who still exist in settlements above Tyrrhenia in the city of Kreston, formerly neighbors to the Dorians who at that time lived in the land now called Thessaliotis; also the Pelasgians who once lived with the Athenians and then settled Plakia and Skylake in the Hellespont; and along with those who lived with all the other communities and were once Pelasgian but changed their names. If one can judge by this evidence, the Pelasgians spoke a barbarian language. And so, if the Pelasgian language was spoken in all these places, the people of Attica being originally Pelasgian, must have learned a new language when they became Hellenes. As a matter of fact, the people of Krestonia and Plakia no longer speak the same language, which shows that they continue to use the dialect they brought with them when they migrated to those lands.
    He explains that in Thessaly (Central Greece), the Dorians (Middle Bronze AGe High Steppe admixed Greek speakers) lived alongside Pelasgians. And the people of Attica were largely Pelasgian (Eearly Bronze Age/ low steppe admixed) who adopted Greek.

    And the he continues to say:
    As for the Hellenes, it seems obvious to me that ever since they came into existence they have always used the same language. They were weak at first, when they were separated from the Pelasgians, but they grew from a small group into a multitude, especially when many peoples, including other barbarians in great numbers, had joined them.
    He clearly describes that native people (Early Bronze Age probably) adopted the Hellenic language. So the Hellenes grew in numbers and became stronger.

    Thucydides confirms this exact same view when he says:

    Before the time of Hellen, son of Deucalion [...] the country went by the names of the different tribes, in particular of the Pelasgian. It was not till Hellen and his sons grew strong in Phthiotis, and were invited as allies into the other cities, that one by one they gradually acquired from the connection the name of Hellenes; though a long time elapsed before that name could fasten itself upon all.
    Just for the sake of clarity, Phthiotis is in Thessaly. Hellen and his sons are the high Steppe admixed people who spread around Greece and acquired the name Hellenes. Now, the term 'Hellenes' is also worth noticing here. The Mycenaeans never identified themselves as Hellenes. That term was slowly acquired after the Iron Age. So this indicates that the sons of Hellen were invited into other cities after the Bronze Age collapse. These migrants, sons of Hellen, from the North of Greece settled further South, mixed with the natives and formed what was to become the classical Greeks.


    Lastly, there are also some ancient Greek historians who can not distinguish between Hellenes and Pelasgians (native EBA people). This probably has to do with the perspective they have. That's because many of these Hellenes were once Pelasgian, mixed with Hellenes and changed their language. So one can look at it from a perspective of origin, or a perspective of language. Since the Hellenes mixed and were biologically absorbed by native Early Bronze Age people, it would make sense that they would view the Pelasgians as their ancestors and thus of the same Hellenic race.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dianatomia View Post
    Considering most of the Ancient Greek texts are written after the Iron Age, it is quite possible that the Helladic and Cycladic people of the Early Bronze Age are the people the later Greeks would refer to as the 'Pelasgians'. The people with a lot of Steppe admixture residing in Thessaly and Epirus around 2000 B.C. were the proto-Hellenic speakers.

    This would make the Mycenaean Greeks largely Pelasgian. Even though they have already absorbed some waves of proto-Hellenes.

    We have to consider the fact that the Greeks after the Iron Age didn't have access to written material of the people who spoke Linear B. After all, they were using a different alphabet. In that respect, for the Classical Greeks there was some obscurity as to who the Mycenaeans Greeks really were. They had the knowledge that they spoke Greek, so perhaps they may have assumed they were entirely similar to themselves. Even though the classical Greeks may have had much more Steppe ancestry due to subsequent migrations.

    This is what Herodotus has to say:


    He explains that in Thessaly (Central Greece), the Dorians (Middle Bronze AGe High Steppe admixed Greek speakers) lived alongside Pelasgians. And the people of Attica were largely Pelasgian (Eearly Bronze Age/ low steppe admixed) who adopted Greek.

    And the he continues to say:


    He clearly describes that native people (Early Bronze Age probably) adopted the Hellenic language. So the Hellenes grew in numbers and became stronger.

    Thucydides confirms this exact same view when he says:



    Just for the sake of clarity, Phthiotis is in Thessaly. Hellen and his sons are the high Steppe admixed people who spread around Greece and acquired the name Hellenes. Now, the term 'Hellenes' is also worth noticing here. The Mycenaeans never identified themselves as Hellenes. That term was slowly acquired after the Iron Age. So this indicates that the sons of Hellen were invited into other cities after the Bronze Age collapse. These migrants, sons of Hellen, from the North of Greece settled further South, mixed with the natives and formed what was to become the classical Greeks.


    Lastly, there are also some ancient Greek historians who can not distinguish between Hellenes and Pelasgians (native EBA people). This probably has to do with the perspective they have. That's because many of these Hellenes were once Pelasgian, mixed with Hellenes and changed their language. So one can look at it from a perspective of origin, or a perspective of language. Since the Hellenes mixed and were biologically absorbed by native Early Bronze Age people, it would make sense that they would view the Pelasgians as their ancestors and thus of the same Hellenic race.
    Great history lesson. The problem is that Logkas samples are closer to North Italy than Greece. Can they be the ones that brought the Greek language in Greece?



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    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    Great history lesson. The problem is that Logkas samples are closer to North Italy than Greece. Can they be the ones that brought the Greek language in Greece?



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    That's not actually a problem, if it were true. The samples are from 2000 BC, and the population density of Greece during that time was very low. We may be talking about 200.000 people. Perhaps less. Now, the rest of Europe was even more scarcely populated during that. But not so much Anatolia and Crete. A few migrations can make a lot of changes. Modern Greeks have more East Med admixture than these middle Bronze Age pre-Greeks. That is the only essential difference.

    On that note, I don't think we should take North Italy seriously either. These calculators notice that North Italy has less East Med admixture than Greeks, so North Italians come up as closely related.

    I think that these people from 2000 BC had an impact on the Mycenaean genetic make up of mainland Greece. But there must have been some other migration as well, from the East Med. This elevated the East Med levels, lowered the Steppe again somewhat. But the Slavs brought it to similar levels as these North Middle Bronze Age Greeks.

    I was thinking that, given that the western Anatolian coast became part of the Greek habitat around 1000 BC, there could have been mobility going back and forth the Aegean, elevating the East Med levels in Greeks. But the problem is that Albanians and South Italians also have elevated East Med levels compared to the Middle Bronze Age North Greeks. So the additional East Med admixture must have come very early. Dorians, Sea Peoples, who knows?
    Last edited by Dianatomia; 13-05-21 at 17:11.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dianatomia View Post
    That's not actually a problem, if it were true. The samples are from 2000 BC, and the population density of Greece during that time was very low. We may be talking about 200.000 people. Perhaps less. Now, the rest of Europe was even more scarcely populated during that. But not so much Anatolia and Crete. A few migrations can make a lot of changes. Modern Greeks have more East Med admixture than these middle Bronze Age pre-Greeks. That is the only essential difference.

    On that note, I don't think we should take North Italy seriously either. These calculators notice that North Italy has less East Med admixture than Greeks, so North Italians come up as closely related.

    I think that these people from 2000 BC had an impact on the Mycenaean genetic make up of mainland Greece. But there must have been some other migration as well, from the East Med. This elevated the East Med levels, lowered the Steppe again somewhat. But the Slavs brought it to similar levels as these North Middle Bronze Age Greeks.

    I was thinking that, given that the western Anatolian coast became part of the Greek habitat around 1000 BC, there could have been mobility going back and forth the Aegean, elevating the East Med levels in Greeks. But the problem is that Albanians and South Italians also have elevated East Med levels compared to the Middle Bronze Age North Greeks. So the additional East Med admixture must have come very early. Dorians, Sea Peoples, who knows?
    Do you think that the those 2 samples are good represantives of regions like the Macedonia overall in that time, or were there a minority of newcommers?
    Like assuming Slavs were Slovene-like before entering Greece, if we find 2 samples from 6th century that plot with Slovenes that does not necessarily mean that the inhabitants of Macedonia and Epirus were Slovene-like.

    I think we need severall samples from Classical period and late Bronze Age one in northern Greece.

    As for differences Abruzzes and Sicilians have their differences too, so it all depends on context.

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    [QUOTE=ihype02;623965]Do you think that the those 2 samples are good represantives of regions like the Macedonia overall in that time, or were there a minority of newcommers?

    Given what we have so far from that area, including the Illyrians of the Iron Age (who plot even further North) and Thracian samples I would say that they are good representatives of most tribes living in that area around 2000-1900 B.C. Although there could be Early Bronze age (low Steppe) people in the Macedonian region as well. These people would be the older inhabitants. Likewise, I think that in Greece overall, even further South, there may have been tribes similar to these 2 samples we found. They could have been living a seperately, according to their own customs. Some intermixing here and there may have taken place. Hence the low Steppe admixture in Mycenaeans. It may even be possible that, further down the line, even though almost everyone spoke Greek during the iron Age, there may still have been substantial differences between the tribes in Greece. Some may have had more Steppe admixture, and some less.

    As for classical Macedonia, I think they must have been somewhat different compared to those samples. We know Slavs were absorbed, especially in that region, around the 6th century A.D. So how can the people in that area today have the same level of Steppe admixture as these pre-Greeks from around 2000 B.C.? The people prior to the Slavic migration must have had less Steppe admixture.



    I think we need severall samples from Classical period and late Bronze Age one in northern Greece.
    Definitely. Samples of Classical Greece from different regions. That said, I am almost sure the Classical Greeks were not entirely homogeneous. There were some differences between Cypriots, Ionian Greeks, mainland Greeks, Cretans even then. Same is probably also true for Thracians and Illyrians.

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    [QUOTE=Dianatomia;623971]
    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    Do you think that the those 2 samples are good represantives of regions like the Macedonia overall in that time, or were there a minority of newcommers?

    Given what we have so far from that area, including the Illyrians of the Iron Age (who plot even further North) and Thracian samples I would say that they are good representatives of most tribes living in that area around 2000-1900 B.C. Although there could be Early Bronze age (low Steppe) people in the Macedonian region as well. These people would be the older inhabitants. Likewise, I think that in Greece overall, even further South, there may have been tribes similar to these 2 samples we found. They could have been living a seperately, according to their own customs. Some intermixing here and there may have taken place. Hence the low Steppe admixture in Mycenaeans. It may even be possible that, further down the line, even though almost everyone spoke Greek during the iron Age, there may still have been substantial differences between the tribes in Greece. Some may have had more Steppe admixture, and some less.

    As for classical Macedonia, I think they must have been somewhat different compared to those samples. We know Slavs were absorbed, especially in that region, around the 6th century A.D. So how can the people in that area today have the same level of Steppe admixture as these pre-Greeks from around 2000 B.C.? The people prior to the Slavic migration must have had less Steppe admixture.





    Definitely. Samples of Classical Greece from different regions. That said, I am almost sure the Classical Greeks were not entirely homogeneous. There were some differences between Cypriots, Ionian Greeks, mainland Greeks, Cretans even then. Same is probably also true for Thracians and Illyrians.
    In my opinion Aegean Islanders probably have some Anatolian ancestry, and Macedonians were somewhat more northern shifted compared to Myceaneans.
    Also I believe most post-BronzeAge Anatolian ancestry in Aegean Islands and Mainland Greece came during the Hellenistic and Roman period, which makes sense.
    Last edited by ihype02; 13-05-21 at 20:10.

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    Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

    [QUOTE=Dianatomia;623971]
    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    Do you think that the those 2 samples are good represantives of regions like the Macedonia overall in that time, or were there a minority of newcommers?

    Given what we have so far from that area, including the Illyrians of the Iron Age (who plot even further North) and Thracian samples I would say that they are good representatives of most tribes living in that area around 2000-1900 B.C. Although there could be Early Bronze age (low Steppe) people in the Macedonian region as well. These people would be the older inhabitants. Likewise, I think that in Greece overall, even further South, there may have been tribes similar to these 2 samples we found. They could have been living a seperately, according to their own customs. Some intermixing here and there may have taken place. Hence the low Steppe admixture in Mycenaeans. It may even be possible that, further down the line, even though almost everyone spoke Greek during the iron Age, there may still have been substantial differences between the tribes in Greece. Some may have had more Steppe admixture, and some less.

    As for classical Macedonia, I think they must have been somewhat different compared to those samples. We know Slavs were absorbed, especially in that region, around the 6th century A.D. So how can the people in that area today have the same level of Steppe admixture as these pre-Greeks from around 2000 B.C.? The people prior to the Slavic migration must have had less Steppe admixture.





    Definitely. Samples of Classical Greece from different regions. That said, I am almost sure the Classical Greeks were not entirely homogeneous. There were some differences between Cypriots, Ionian Greeks, mainland Greeks, Cretans even then. Same is probably also true for Thracians and Illyrians.
    The open question here is no how much steppe they had, but where they the carriers of the Greek language?

    Kit: Ancient Middle Helladic Elati-Logkas Greece (Log04_wgs_trim5bp)

    closest genetic modern populations...

    Info

    1. Kosovar (10.17)
    2. Romanian (10.39)
    3. Bosnian (11.01)
    4. Bulgarian (11.17)
    5. Serbian (11.56)
    6. North_Italian (12.04)
    7. Albanian_Tosk (12.36)
    8. Macedonian (13.03)


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  25. #2675
    Regular Member blevins13's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Dianatomia;623971]
    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    Do you think that the those 2 samples are good represantives of regions like the Macedonia overall in that time, or were there a minority of newcommers?

    Given what we have so far from that area, including the Illyrians of the Iron Age (who plot even further North) and Thracian samples I would say that they are good representatives of most tribes living in that area around 2000-1900 B.C. Although there could be Early Bronze age (low Steppe) people in the Macedonian region as well. These people would be the older inhabitants. Likewise, I think that in Greece overall, even further South, there may have been tribes similar to these 2 samples we found. They could have been living a seperately, according to their own customs. Some intermixing here and there may have taken place. Hence the low Steppe admixture in Mycenaeans. It may even be possible that, further down the line, even though almost everyone spoke Greek during the iron Age, there may still have been substantial differences between the tribes in Greece. Some may have had more Steppe admixture, and some less.

    As for classical Macedonia, I think they must have been somewhat different compared to those samples. We know Slavs were absorbed, especially in that region, around the 6th century A.D. So how can the people in that area today have the same level of Steppe admixture as these pre-Greeks from around 2000 B.C.? The people prior to the Slavic migration must have had less Steppe admixture.





    Definitely. Samples of Classical Greece from different regions. That said, I am almost sure the Classical Greeks were not entirely homogeneous. There were some differences between Cypriots, Ionian Greeks, mainland Greeks, Cretans even then. Same is probably also true for Thracians and Illyrians.
    I doubt it that these people where the ones that spread the Greek language over Greece.

    Kit: Ancient Middle Helladic Elati-Logkas Greece (Log04_wgs_trim5bp)

    Closest genetic modern populations...

    Info

    1. Kosovar (10.17)
    2. Romanian (10.39)
    3. Bosnian (11.01)
    4. Bulgarian (11.17)
    5. Serbian (11.56)
    6. North_Italian (12.04)
    7. Albanian_Tosk (12.36)
    8. Macedonian (13.03)


    Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

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