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Thread: Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

  1. #2676
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    [QUOTE=blevins13;623975]
    Quote Originally Posted by ;623971
    The open question here is no how much steppe they had, but where they the carriers of the Greek language?
    Not Greek yet. But they could have been speaking an IE Graeco-Phrygian language from which it branched into separate languages. The Phrygians split off early, then a proto-Hellenic language remained in the region from which the Greek southern dialects and Northerwest dialects like Epirot and Macedonian evolved. After all, the archaeological record shows that Epirus/Thessaly/South Macedonia to be part of the proto-Greek area.

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    [QUOTE=Dianatomia;623987]
    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post

    Not Greek yet. But they could have been speaking an IE Graeco-Phrygian language from which it branched into separate languages. The Phrygians split off early, then a proto-Hellenic language remained in the region from which the Greek southern dialects and Northerwest dialects like Epirot and Macedonian evolved. After all, the archaeological record shows that Epirus/Thessaly/South Macedonia to be part of the proto-Greek area.
    So basically the original Greeks are closer to Kosovar than Modern Greeks. This is a big discovery.


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    [QUOTE=blevins13;623988]
    Quote Originally Posted by Dianatomia View Post
    So basically the original Greeks are closer to Kosovar than Modern Greeks. This is a big discovery.


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    I would not call them Greek yet. But in the same way Ashkenazi Jews are closer to Mycenaeans, Log 04 could be closer to Kosovars or North Italians or other Balkan peoples, than the average modern Greek. And Kosovars may have not existed with their current genetic signature until much later. But totally irrelevant if you ask me.

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    [QUOTE=Dianatomia;623990]
    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post

    I would not call them Greek yet. But in the same way Ashkenazi Jews are closer to Mycenaeans, Log 04 could be closer to Kosovars or North Italians or other Balkan peoples, than the average modern Greek. And Kosovars may have not existed with their current genetic signature until much later. But totally irrelevant if you ask me.
    In the same way was concluded that modern Greeks are mythical decent of Mycenaeans.


    https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017...nt-dna-reveals


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    Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

    [QUOTE=Dianatomia;623990]
    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post

    I would not call them Greek yet. But in the same way Ashkenazi Jews are closer to Mycenaeans, Log 04 could be closer to Kosovars or North Italians or other Balkan peoples, than the average modern Greek. And Kosovars may have not existed with their current genetic signature until much later. But totally irrelevant if you ask me.
    Kit: Ancient Middle Helladic Elati-Logkas Greece (Log04_wgs_trim5bp)

    Closest Ancient populations...

    Gaul + Gallo-Roman (8.365)
    Gaul + Illyrian (9.087)
    Thuringii + Gallo-Roman (9.346)
    Gallo-Roman + Frank (9.41)
    Gaul (9.457)
    Thuringii + Illyrian (10.6)
    Illyrian (11.88)
    Gallo-Roman (11.93)
    Frank (13.31)
    Thuringii (14.17)

    It is hard for me to see this ancient person as carrier of the Greek Language in Greece. She looks like a recent migrant from the Pannonia Basin.


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    Last edited by blevins13; 13-05-21 at 23:56.

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    I tried to figure out what kind of 50% Steppe admixture Log4 and Log2 had. The authors conclude that the Pontic Steppe groups that arrived in Greece were more of Eastern European hunter-gatherer ancestry than CHG. So the EBA steppe can be modeled as 66% EHG and 34% CHG. While the Yamnaya from other studies had an almost even mix of EHG: CHG ratio.


    …..Because EHG and CHG are the major components of Steppe-related populations (e.g., Steppe_EMBA with 66% EHG-like and 34% IranN/CHG-like0 (Figure 3), consistent with previous results (de Barros Damgaard et al., 2018), this. -
    Supplementary, p. 8



    Here the thing, if Log 4 was 50% "Steppe MLBA" then she‘s not closest to Scots since from what I recall Northern Europeans can be modeled as 70-100% "Steppe MLBA" aka Corded Ware/Sintashta

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    Quote Originally Posted by real expert View Post
    if Log 4 was 50% "Steppe MLBA" then she‘s not closest to Scots since from what I recall Northern Europeans can be modeled as 70-100% "Steppe MLBA" aka Corded Ware/Sintashta
    It's ~62% Steppe MLBA

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    Quote Originally Posted by Philjames100 View Post
    It's ~62% Steppe MLBA


    Okay, but Log4 still scores lower Steppe MLBA than modern Northern European folks. Anyway, from her Pontic Steppe side she has more EHG than CHG. Which I find is interesting to note.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    So basically the original Greeks are closer to Kosovar than Modern Greeks. This is a big discovery.
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    What about Mik15, which is early bronze age Helladic?

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    [QUOTE=Jovialis;623998]
    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    What about Mik15, which is early bronze age Helladic?
    What about that?


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    [QUOTE=blevins13;623999]
    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    What about that?


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    Is is not an older sample from Helladic culture?

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    [QUOTE=Jovialis;624000]
    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post

    Is is not an older sample from Helladic culture?
    I can’t see that in MTA. What did you see?


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    [QUOTE=blevins13;624001]
    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post

    I can’t see that in MTA. What did you see?


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    The study they are from has Mik15 labeled as EBA Helladic, while Log04 is MBA Helladic.

    At any rate, I am actually uploading it to MTA right now. However, I don't find MTA to be as accurate as Dodecad.

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    Mik15 results for MTA:



    1. Early Helladic Manika Euboea Island Greece
    2827 BC - Genetic Distance: 6.165 - Mik15_wgs
    Top 100 % match vs all users


    2. Ancient Petras Siteias Crete
    2735 BC - Genetic Distance: 6.525 - Pta08_wgs
    Top 100 % match vs all users


    3. Minoan Moni Odigitria
    2000 BC - Genetic Distance: 6.752 - I9130
    Top 100 % match vs all users


    4. Minoan Lasithi
    2000 BC - Genetic Distance: 7.405 - I9005
    Top 100 % match vs all users


    5. Mycenaean Galatas
    1350 BC - Genetic Distance: 8.06 - I9010
    Top 100 % match vs all users


    6. Minoan Lasithi
    2000 BC - Genetic Distance: 8.321 - I0071
    Top 100 % match vs all users


    7. Minoan Lasithi
    2000 BC - Genetic Distance: 8.752 - I0074
    Top 100 % match vs all users


    8. Ashkelon Philistine Minoan
    1150 BC - Genetic Distance: 9.129 - ASH067_ASH_IA1
    Top 100 % match vs all users


    9. Early Helladic Manika Euboea Island Greece
    2827 BC - Genetic Distance: 9.376 - Mik15_wgs_trim5bp
    Top 100 % match vs all users


    10. Neolithic Greece
    4000 BC - Genetic Distance: 9.687 - Klei10
    Top 100 % match vs all users

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Mik15 results for MTA:



    1. Early Helladic Manika Euboea Island Greece
    2827 BC - Genetic Distance: 6.165 - Mik15_wgs
    Top 100 % match vs all users


    2. Ancient Petras Siteias Crete
    2735 BC - Genetic Distance: 6.525 - Pta08_wgs
    Top 100 % match vs all users


    3. Minoan Moni Odigitria
    2000 BC - Genetic Distance: 6.752 - I9130
    Top 100 % match vs all users


    4. Minoan Lasithi
    2000 BC - Genetic Distance: 7.405 - I9005
    Top 100 % match vs all users


    5. Mycenaean Galatas
    1350 BC - Genetic Distance: 8.06 - I9010
    Top 100 % match vs all users


    6. Minoan Lasithi
    2000 BC - Genetic Distance: 8.321 - I0071
    Top 100 % match vs all users


    7. Minoan Lasithi
    2000 BC - Genetic Distance: 8.752 - I0074
    Top 100 % match vs all users


    8. Ashkelon Philistine Minoan
    1150 BC - Genetic Distance: 9.129 - ASH067_ASH_IA1
    Top 100 % match vs all users


    9. Early Helladic Manika Euboea Island Greece
    2827 BC - Genetic Distance: 9.376 - Mik15_wgs_trim5bp
    Top 100 % match vs all users


    10. Neolithic Greece
    4000 BC - Genetic Distance: 9.687 - Klei10
    Top 100 % match vs all users
    I don’t see anything unusual for this sample considering location and time.


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    Right, but my point is that this is an older Helladic sample, with very little steppe.

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    Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Right, but my point is that this is an older Helladic sample, with very little steppe.
    I find it difficult that Logkas samples or population similar to them can be the carriers of the Greek language during MBA. Other than that the rest seems logical.


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    For me, I find it interesting that EBA Helladic is similar to LBA Myceneans. To me it shows these Ancient Greeks remained relatively consistent throughout the Bronze Age in the south.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    For me, I find it interesting that EBA Helladic is similar to LBA Myceneans. To me it shows these Ancient Greeks remained relatively consistent throughout the Bronze Age in the south.
    This is a good point as well.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Mik15 results for MTA:



    1. Early Helladic Manika Euboea Island Greece
    2827 BC - Genetic Distance: 6.165 - Mik15_wgs
    Top 100 % match vs all users


    2. Ancient Petras Siteias Crete
    2735 BC - Genetic Distance: 6.525 - Pta08_wgs
    Top 100 % match vs all users


    3. Minoan Moni Odigitria
    2000 BC - Genetic Distance: 6.752 - I9130
    Top 100 % match vs all users


    4. Minoan Lasithi
    2000 BC - Genetic Distance: 7.405 - I9005
    Top 100 % match vs all users


    5. Mycenaean Galatas
    1350 BC - Genetic Distance: 8.06 - I9010
    Top 100 % match vs all users


    6. Minoan Lasithi
    2000 BC - Genetic Distance: 8.321 - I0071
    Top 100 % match vs all users


    7. Minoan Lasithi
    2000 BC - Genetic Distance: 8.752 - I0074
    Top 100 % match vs all users


    8. Ashkelon Philistine Minoan
    1150 BC - Genetic Distance: 9.129 - ASH067_ASH_IA1
    Top 100 % match vs all users


    9. Early Helladic Manika Euboea Island Greece
    2827 BC - Genetic Distance: 9.376 - Mik15_wgs_trim5bp
    Top 100 % match vs all users


    10. Neolithic Greece
    4000 BC - Genetic Distance: 9.687 - Klei10
    Top 100 % match vs all users
    I do not have access to MTA. What modern populations is this sample closest to?
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    I do not have access to MTA. What modern populations is this sample closest to?
    I seriously doubt this is remotely correct, but here it is:

    1. Algerian_Jewish (18.13)
    2. Italian_Jewish (20.13)
    3. Maltese (20.31)
    4. South_Italian (22.00)
    5. Tunisian_Jewish (22.27)
    6. West_Sicilian (22.31)
    7. Greek_Islands (23.82)
    8. Libyan_Jewish (23.95)

    This is a very poor fit across the board.

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    Here is a 3D PCA with Dodecad Globe 13 using the samples from this study, and the Clemente et al. 2021 samples:


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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Dodecad Globe 13 for Mik15 vs available modern populations:

    Distance to: Mik15
    14.79754372 Morocco_Jews
    16.63085386 Sephardic_Jews
    17.52413479 Sicilian_D
    17.78300593 S_Italian_Sicilian_D
    19.19753370 Ashkenazi_D
    19.37811394 C_Italian_D
    19.41410055 Ashkenazy_Jews
    22.80840415 Tuscan
    23.31169878 TSI30
    23.33840826 Moroccan_D
    24.24646985 Greek_D
    25.28409184 Cypriots
    25.50218226 Sardinian
    25.87959235 Algerian_D
    26.61235240 Canarias_1KG
    26.75319233 Mozabite
    26.88983637 North_Italian
    27.19590594 Turkish_Cypriot_D
    27.83072583 O_Italian_D
    29.10995191 Andalucia_1KG
    29.12918296 Moroccans
    29.31107811 Murcia_1KG
    30.27208780 N_Italian_D
    31.58302234 Baleares_1KG
    31.68168714 Portuguese_D

    Here is Mik15 vs the other ancient Greek samples:

    He is very close to Minoans, which we know are mostly Anatolian_N with about 15% CHG/IN. There is no way Algerian_Jews are composed of that admixture. We can't really compare these samples so much to modern populations, because the inferences made by doing so are bound to be false:

    Distance to: Mik15
    4.73667605 I2937
    5.72554801 I9129
    5.90445594 I9010
    7.59130424 Pta08
    7.62219785 I9128
    9.00139989 I9005
    9.35317593 I0074
    9.42462731 Kou01
    9.80234156 I0071
    11.08796194 I0073
    11.33379460 I0070
    11.56451901 I9130
    12.19090235 I9127
    12.45656453 I9131
    13.06872985 I9041
    13.70391915 I9006
    14.52259274 I9033
    15.10968564 Kou03
    18.59169438 I9123
    18.99046866 I2495
    22.03010667 I2499
    22.92758600 I2683
    25.84222707 Log02
    34.33169236 Log04

    Autosomal-wise Mik15 looks like a Minoan, with an additional small amount of Steppe. Again, there is no way Algerian_Jews or Moroccan_Jews look like that in terms of autosomal DNA. This is why we must be careful with these tools:




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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Dodecad Globe 13 for Mik15 vs available modern populations:

    Distance to: Mik15
    14.79754372 Morocco_Jews
    16.63085386 Sephardic_Jews
    17.52413479 Sicilian_D
    17.78300593 S_Italian_Sicilian_D
    19.19753370 Ashkenazi_D
    19.37811394 C_Italian_D
    19.41410055 Ashkenazy_Jews
    22.80840415 Tuscan
    23.31169878 TSI30
    23.33840826 Moroccan_D
    24.24646985 Greek_D
    25.28409184 Cypriots
    25.50218226 Sardinian
    25.87959235 Algerian_D
    26.61235240 Canarias_1KG
    26.75319233 Mozabite
    26.88983637 North_Italian
    27.19590594 Turkish_Cypriot_D
    27.83072583 O_Italian_D
    29.10995191 Andalucia_1KG
    29.12918296 Moroccans
    29.31107811 Murcia_1KG
    30.27208780 N_Italian_D
    31.58302234 Baleares_1KG
    31.68168714 Portuguese_D

    Here is Mik15 vs the other ancient Greek samples:

    He is very close to Minoans, which we know are mostly Anatolian_N with about 15% CHG/IN. There is no way Algerian_Jews are composed of that admixture. We can't really compare these samples so much to modern populations, because the inferences made by doing so are bound to be false:

    Distance to: Mik15
    4.73667605 I2937
    5.72554801 I9129
    5.90445594 I9010
    7.59130424 Pta08
    7.62219785 I9128
    9.00139989 I9005
    9.35317593 I0074
    9.42462731 Kou01
    9.80234156 I0071
    11.08796194 I0073
    11.33379460 I0070
    11.56451901 I9130
    12.19090235 I9127
    12.45656453 I9131
    13.06872985 I9041
    13.70391915 I9006
    14.52259274 I9033
    15.10968564 Kou03
    18.59169438 I9123
    18.99046866 I2495
    22.03010667 I2499
    22.92758600 I2683
    25.84222707 Log02
    34.33169236 Log04

    Autosomal-wise Mik15 looks like a Minoan, with an additional small amount of Steppe. Again, there is no way Algerian_Jews or Moroccan_Jews look like that in terms of autosomal DNA. This is why we must be careful with these tools:
    Fantastic visualizations Jovialis.

    Yes, I think its quite normal when you have such a poor fit to modern populations. Those distances are of course gonna reflect changes in genetic makeup components from the modern populations to the ancient sample. The case still remains, that if any modern population is close (no matter how far), it seems to be some sort of Jewish continuum.

    Love the rainbow by the way. Do you think the smooth gradient of ancient samples in itself, with reference to this sample, points out to how heterogeneous the Myceneans, Minoans and Ancient Greeks were?

    I think myself these conversations that pop up from time to time about x ancient people was y modern population is a bit ridiculous, also knowing how these PCAs are created in theory.

    Take a Portuguese Father, Russian Mother, and the kid pops up German. Might as well give him a German pass*port right?
    It gets more accurate when you add more components, two + way calculators etc..., but the flaw still remains that with the same ingredients you can make different dishes that taste quite different.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Fantastic visualizations Jovialis.

    Yes, I think its quite normal when you have such a poor fit to modern populations. Those distances are of course gonna reflect changes in genetic makeup components from the modern populations to the ancient sample. The case still remains, that if any modern population is close (no matter how far), it seems to be some sort of Jewish continuum.

    Love the rainbow by the way. Do you think the smooth gradient of ancient samples in itself, with reference to this sample, points out to how heterogeneous the Myceneans, Minoans and Ancient Greeks were?

    I think myself these conversations that pop up from time to time about x ancient people was y modern population is a bit ridiculous, also knowing how these PCAs are created in theory.

    Take a Portuguese Father, Russian Mother, and the kid pops up German. Might as well give him a German pass*port right?
    It gets more accurate when you add more components, two + way calculators etc..., but the flaw still remains that with the same ingredients you can make different dishes that taste quite different.
    Indeed, an example I like to use about the possible flaws in using PCAs is the fact that South Asians, and South and Central Americans overlap. Nevertheless, we know that they are radically different in terms of their actual autosomal composition:


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