Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

[blevins13]

Who? who relates Dorians with Hallstat?

All moderns say 2 possible things

1, they were always present, and Dorians means woodcutters, village people, (Dor possible meaning is Drys=oak tree, or Dor from leather cloths Dora=Fur)
2. they were from the same stuff of Greco-Brygians and came from Vucedol, (from 1928 till today archaiologist say so), and habited Central-North Greece, and moved South (return of Temenides) with sons of Hercules.

Vucedol is not Halstatt

you hust polute every thread about Greeks, and wat to turn out the meaning of every papper, saying whatever, and providing points,
In past you claim Mycenean ancestry,
then you claim the Mycenean were N hg and Seima-Turbino culture,
etc etc etc,

and if this post, cost me an infraction
I would gladly accept it,

people are tired of your Agenda,
yours and some others psychopathetics.
who at 2020 claim Fallmaier is better and wiser than genetics,

You guys do not convice noone,
Only you want to spread a sneaky mist so others to get lost in fog.

Greeks from Halstatt, !!! ????
Who the hell Genetist or serious scholar say so?

I am glad you are alive....considering what has happened in the last months...all Ballkan people have agendas, so probably I have one as well in my mind. But I am definitely not polluting, Eupedia is spreading this information, and then keep doing so for many years. If I have said something in the past in this forum...they are easy to find so do not spread lies. I never claimed any relation to Mycenaean, I might have said that my R1b-Z2103 relate to Dorians based on Maciamo’ views. And again Dorians from Hallstatt not Greeks.....I see Greeks similar to Great Britain different people coming together in different times, their language English does not make them all Anglo-Saxon.


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[Shahmiri]

I now see what's the narrative. I am not going to continue this discussion, believe whatever you want mate.

First because i am a supporter of the "Caucasian Substrate" hypothesis by Allan Bomhard, and second because the modern distribution of J2a does suggest that some might have been expanded with the IEs (Pontic-Caspian steppe, Tarim Basin, northwestern India).

The interesting thing is that you almost believe the same thing, anyway it is what David Reich says, not me.

 

[Demetrios]

The interesting thing is that you almost believe the same thing, anyway it is what David Reich says, not me.

Go read that paper, and then come and claim the same thing. Don't judge it from the title. Also, the comment i made for some of the J2a being expanded with the IEs, pertained to the steppe IE expansions, beginning from the Pontic-Caspian steppe, not Transcaucasia, and certainly not Iran.

 

[blevins13]

Don't tell me what the Lazaridis paper says again. Explain to me how does it corroborate the notions you are promoting, because it obviously doesn't. You don't even understand the simple English that the paper is conveying.

You asked, where would the proto-Greek region be? Lazaridis provides clues.
Dorian and Hallstatt, Look Eupedia.
Is my English clear for you?


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[Deird]

J2 and Anatolian PIE farmers

Anyway, i am certain that some J2a was even present among the PIEs. I say this for two reasons mainly. First because i am a supporter of the "Caucasian Substrate" hypothesis by Allan Bomhard, and second because the modern distribution of J2a does suggest that some might have been expanded with the IEs (Pontic-Caspian steppe, Tarim Basin, northwestern India). Of course most of Greek J2a doesn't fall into this category probably, but still, there isn't only one source of J2a.

This map is quite extraordinarily supportive of the PIE homeland in Anatolia !

 

[Demetrios]

But I am definitely not polluting, Eupedia is spreading this information, and then keep doing so for many years. If I have said something in the past in this forum...they are easy to find so do not spread lies. I never claimed any relation to Mycenaean, I might have said that my R1b-Z2103 relate to Dorians based on Maciamo’ views. And again Dorians from Hallstatt not Greeks.....I see Greeks similar to Great Britain different people coming together in different times, their language English does not make them all Anglo-Saxon.

You asked, where would the proto-Greek region be? Lazaridis provides clues.
Dorian and Hallstatt, Look Eupedia.
Is my English clear for you?
Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

A single author has written a quote in a Eupedia article and you treat it as dogma because you have no serious academic corroboration to support what you initially claimed, nor does the quote you cite for that matter. Now you even claim that Dorians were not Greeks (which was itself a collective name back then). Go figure. Let me enlighten you on the fact that in contrast with many of the other palaeo-Balkan languages and from elsewhere for that matter, that aren't sufficiently recorded (or recorded) in order for us to be able to analyze them and classify them, Greek with its varieties happens to be one of the most recorded languages throughout history. Dorian Greek is not a hypothetical language but a fact. Dorians spoke Greek, with a number of varieties. This is not even debatable, it is an academic fact. Now, you think you are promoting an agenda but quite honestly you are only ridiculed with what you write.

The Lazaridis paper gave his suggestion for proto-Greek as having formed the southern wing of a steppe intrusion of Indo-European speakers, and he then went on and touched upon an Anatolian IE language such as Pisidian. Is Greek part of the Anatolian IE languages in your book? Or maybe southern wing of a steppe IE intrusion translates as central Europe? If anything, the fact that Anatolian IEs didn't have that steppe component further negates your notion that the proto-Greek route was through Anatolia, as you suggested three months ago.

 

[Demetrios]

This map is quite extraordinarily supportive of the PIE homeland in Anatolia !

OK buddy...

 

[Shahmiri]

Go read that paper, and then come and claim the same thing. Don't judge it from the title. Also, the comment i made for some of the J2a being expanded with the IEs, pertained to the steppe IE expansions, beginning from the Pontic-Caspian steppe, not Transcaucasia, and certainly not Iran.

Allan Bomhard says "Evidence will be presented to demonstrate that Proto-Indo-European is the result of the imposition of a Eurasiatic language-to use Greenberg's term-on a population speaking one or more primordial Northwest Caucasian languages."

I think you know that Caucasologists believe primordial Northwest Caucasian languages were spoken in the South of Caucasus and Northeast of Anatolia, in fact Kaskian language is believed to be the ancestor of Circassian, Abkhaz and other Northwest Caucasian languages.

 

[Deird]

A single author has written a quote in a Eupedia article and you treat it as dogma because you have no serious academic corroboration to support what you initially claimed, nor does the quote you cite for that matter. Now you even claim that Dorians were not Greeks (which was itself a collective name back then). Go figure. Let me enlighten you on the fact that in contrast with many of the other palaeo-Balkan languages and from elsewhere for that matter, that aren't sufficiently recorded (or recorded) in order for us to be able to analyze them and classify them, Greek with its varieties happens to be one of the most recorded languages throughout history. Dorian Greek is not a hypothetical language but a fact. Dorians spoke Greek, with a number of varieties. This is not even debatable, it is an academic fact. Now, you think you are promoting an agenda but quite honestly you are only ridiculed with what you write.

Please note that Dorian is a female name and the word is normally Doric for the language.

The Lazaridis paper gave his suggestion for proto-Greek as having formed the southern wing of a steppe intrusion of Indo-European speakers, and he then went on and touched upon an Anatolian IE language such as Pisidian. Is Greek part of the Anatolian IE languages in your book? Or maybe southern wing of a steppe IE intrusion translates as central Europe? If anything, the fact that Anatolian IEs didn't have that steppe component further negates your notion that the proto-Greek route was through Anatolia, as you suggested three months ago.

yes, of course. The steppe intrusion in Anatolia is called Phrygian or Armenian (North-East) or Mittani-Aryan (South).
(Proto-)Greek did not go thru that area.

 

[Deird]

OK buddy...

Thanks. Efharisto.

 

[Demetrios]

Allan Bomhard says "Evidence will be presented to demonstrate that Proto-Indo-European is the result of the imposition of a Eurasiatic language-to use Greenberg's term-on a population speaking one or more primordial Northwest Caucasian languages."

I think you know that Caucasologists believe primordial Northwest Caucasian languages were spoken in the South of Caucasus and Northeast of Anatolia, in fact Kaskian language is believed to be the ancestor of Circassian, Abkhaz and other Northwest Caucasian languages.

Yeah, beyond that quote from the abstract you can also go and read his basic premises. Here is the first one:
"Let us begin with some basic premises:
1. The most likely homeland of speakers of the unified Indo-European parent language was located to the north of and between the Black and Caspian Seas (see figure 1). This scenario is supported not only by linguistic evidence, but also by a growing body of archeological and genetic evidence. The Indo-Europeans have been identified with several cultural complexes existing in that area between 4,500—3,500 BCE. The literature supporting such a homeland is both extensive and persuasive (many of these works are listed in the references at the end of this paper). Consequently, other scenarios regarding the possible Indo-European homeland, such as Anatolia, have now been mostly abandoned."
Other than that i suggest you read his whole paper, as well as others related to it. Anyway, i am not looking to continue this discussion mate. Take care.

 

[Yetos]

Please note that Dorian is a female name and the word is normally Doric for the language.



yes, of course. The steppe intrusion in Anatolia is called Phrygian or Armenian (North-East) or Mittani-Aryan (South).
(Proto-)Greek did not go thru that area.

What?

female name?

 

[Shahmiri]

Yeah, beyond that quote from the abstract you can also go and read his basic premises. Here is the first one:
"Let us begin with some basic premises:
1. The most likely homeland of speakers of the unified Indo-European parent language was located to the north of and between the Black and Caspian Seas (see figure 1). This scenario is supported not only by linguistic evidence, but also by a growing body of archeological and genetic evidence. The Indo-Europeans have been identified with several cultural complexes existing in that area between 4,500—3,500 BCE. The literature supporting such a homeland is both extensive and persuasive (many of these works are listed in the references at the end of this paper). Consequently, other scenarios regarding the possible Indo-European homeland, such as Anatolia, have now been mostly abandoned."
Other than that i suggest you read his whole paper, as well as others related to it. Anyway, i am not looking to continue this discussion mate. Take care.

It seems to be clear why you don't want to continue this discussion, you just don't want to know about new studies regarding Proto-Indo-European homeland and migrations.

Journal of Indo-European Studies (a peer-reviewed academic journal of Indo-European studies): https://www.jies.org/

The current double issue is Volume 47, Numbers 3 & 4 (Fall/Winter 2019):

 

[Deird]

Dorian is a female first name

What?

female name?

yes, Dorian is a female first name,
did you miss something ?

 

[Deird]

It seems to be clear why you don't want to continue this discussion, you just don't want to know about new studies regarding Proto-Indo-European homeland and migrations.

Journal of Indo-European Studies (a peer-reviewed academic journal of Indo-European studies): https://www.jies.org/

The current double issue is Volume 47, Numbers 3 & 4 (Fall/Winter 2019):

yes, the JIES is a Buffoonery, dedicated to the Pontico-Caspian Archeo-Fable.
So what ?

 

[bigsnake49]

yes, Dorian is a female first name,
did you miss something ?

Not according to Wikipedia. Dorian is a masculine first name. Doris on the other hand is a female first name. But these Celtic names do not have anything to do with the ancient Dorians. The Ancient Greek name for the tribe is Δωριείς.

There is a lot of discussion about how accurate the descent of the ancient Dorians as described by Herodotus actually is. There is no archaeology that supports it. It was used by historians in the past to try and explain the deterioration/destruction of the Mycenean civilization but there is no evidence for it. We just don't know. We don't know that the descent happened and when it happened.

"It has of late become an acknowledged scandal that the Dorians, archaeologically speaking, do not exist. That is, there is no cultural trait surviving in the material record for the two centuries or so after 1200 which can be regarded as a peculiarly Dorian hallmark. Robbed of their patents for Geometric pottery, cremation burial, iron-working and, the unkindest ***** of all, the humble straight pin, the hapless Dorians stand naked before their creator – or, some would say, inventor." - Cartledge, Paul (2002). Sparta and Lakonia: A Regional History, 1300–362. Routledge. p. 68

 

[Yetos]

yes, Dorian is a female first name,
did you miss something ?

noun
male o Δωριευς Engl Dorian
fem η Δωριης Dorian

epithet-on
male o Δωρικος Engl Doric
fem η Δωρικη Doric
Neut to Δωρικον Doric

Toponym
Δωρις (Fem as all countries) Land were Dorians first settle on their descent

 

[Angela]

People, some comments are just so stupid that it's sometimes just as well to ignore them, and then maybe the crazies will go away.

 

[Shahmiri]

yes, the JIES is a Buffoonery, dedicated to the Pontico-Caspian Archeo-Fable.
So what ?

Ok, but are you serious? Your posts don't seem to be so.

 

[Yetos]

Not according to Wikipedia. Dorian is a masculine first name. Doris on the other hand is a female first name. But these Celtic names do not have anything to do with the ancient Dorians. The Ancient Greek name for the tribe is Δωριείς.

There is a lot of discussion about how accurate the descent of the ancient Dorians as described by Herodotus actually is. There is no archaeology that supports it. It was used by historians in the past to try and explain the deterioration/destruction of the Mycenean civilization but there is no evidence for it. We just don't know. We don't know that the descent happened and when it happened.

There is a lot of archaiology that certifies the change of architectural rythm, decoration, mettalurgy, etc
around 911 BC we see these.

But it is true that we do not see huge devastations, marks of population replacements etc etc
that is why many modern scholars claim that Dorians existed same places the times of Mycaenae collapse,
and probably lived on mountains dressed as woodcutters with leathers and furs,
But this does not explain on how Dorians existed on Dodecanese Crete etc,

So the chance in some industries, life style etc etc suggest that probably happened a -long period, short distances- kind of dwelling,
possible for decades, low numbers, and not that far, than Central-North Epirotic Greece