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Thread: Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Indeed, an example I like to use about the possible flaws in using PCAs is the fact that South Asians, and South and Central Americans overlap. Nevertheless, we know that they are radically different in terms of their actual autosomal composition:
    Because the variation is multidimensional, and PCA is just a two-dimensional projection along the 2 axes with most variation.
    But it is a very easy and fast visual representation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Philjames100 View Post
    It's ~62% Steppe MLBA
    Steppe MLBA like in Corded Ware / Sintashta ?

    I think these people didn't come directly from the steppe, rather from the Carpathian Basin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur 2 View Post
    Because the variation is multidimensional, and PCA is just a two-dimensional projection along the 2 axes with most variation.
    But it is a very easy and fast visual representation.
    Indeed the z-axis on the 3D PCA demonstrates differences better.

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    The link in my signature has a good resource to demonstrate that:

    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...l=1#post615989

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    It's very likely those Middle Bronze Age Helladic were the actual Greek speakers. The Cycladic, Minoan and more Southern Greek were probably non-Proto-Greek Farmer + CHG mix.

    I wonder what happened to G2a, during Early Neolithic they became so dominant in Europe, then again during Late Neolithic and then Bronze Age they became a relic of the past.

    I was expecting E-V13 to be the dominant Neolithic Y-DNA in Balkans, but yet again G2a was all over the place.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Dodecad Globe 13 for Mik15 vs available modern populations:

    Distance to: Mik15
    14.79754372 Morocco_Jews
    16.63085386 Sephardic_Jews
    17.52413479 Sicilian_D
    17.78300593 S_Italian_Sicilian_D
    19.19753370 Ashkenazi_D
    19.37811394 C_Italian_D
    19.41410055 Ashkenazy_Jews
    22.80840415 Tuscan
    23.31169878 TSI30
    23.33840826 Moroccan_D
    24.24646985 Greek_D
    25.28409184 Cypriots
    25.50218226 Sardinian
    25.87959235 Algerian_D
    26.61235240 Canarias_1KG
    26.75319233 Mozabite
    26.88983637 North_Italian
    27.19590594 Turkish_Cypriot_D
    27.83072583 O_Italian_D
    29.10995191 Andalucia_1KG
    29.12918296 Moroccans
    29.31107811 Murcia_1KG
    30.27208780 N_Italian_D
    31.58302234 Baleares_1KG
    31.68168714 Portuguese_D

    Here is Mik15 vs the other ancient Greek samples:

    He is very close to Minoans, which we know are mostly Anatolian_N with about 15% CHG/IN. There is no way Algerian_Jews are composed of that admixture. We can't really compare these samples so much to modern populations, because the inferences made by doing so are bound to be false:

    Distance to: Mik15
    4.73667605 I2937
    5.72554801 I9129
    5.90445594 I9010
    7.59130424 Pta08
    7.62219785 I9128
    9.00139989 I9005
    9.35317593 I0074
    9.42462731 Kou01
    9.80234156 I0071
    11.08796194 I0073
    11.33379460 I0070
    11.56451901 I9130
    12.19090235 I9127
    12.45656453 I9131
    13.06872985 I9041
    13.70391915 I9006
    14.52259274 I9033
    15.10968564 Kou03
    18.59169438 I9123
    18.99046866 I2495
    22.03010667 I2499
    22.92758600 I2683
    25.84222707 Log02
    34.33169236 Log04

    Autosomal-wise Mik15 looks like a Minoan, with an additional small amount of Steppe. Again, there is no way Algerian_Jews or Moroccan_Jews look like that in terms of autosomal DNA. This is why we must be careful with these tools:




    the fits are bad for everyone so it could be correct. it's maybe just that all other populations are so far away from them now so that jewish populations are closest.
    the thing is maybe that the "levantine farmer" ancestry is not differentiated strong enough from anatolian farmer/CHG to pull jewish people, who also have anatolian_N/CHG further away than the other populations who also have different admixtures.

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    Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Dodecad Globe 13 for Mik15 vs available modern populations:

    Distance to: Mik15
    14.79754372 Morocco_Jews
    16.63085386 Sephardic_Jews
    17.52413479 Sicilian_D
    17.78300593 S_Italian_Sicilian_D
    19.19753370 Ashkenazi_D
    19.37811394 C_Italian_D
    19.41410055 Ashkenazy_Jews
    22.80840415 Tuscan
    23.31169878 TSI30
    23.33840826 Moroccan_D
    24.24646985 Greek_D
    25.28409184 Cypriots
    25.50218226 Sardinian
    25.87959235 Algerian_D
    26.61235240 Canarias_1KG
    26.75319233 Mozabite
    26.88983637 North_Italian
    27.19590594 Turkish_Cypriot_D
    27.83072583 O_Italian_D
    29.10995191 Andalucia_1KG
    29.12918296 Moroccans
    29.31107811 Murcia_1KG
    30.27208780 N_Italian_D
    31.58302234 Baleares_1KG
    31.68168714 Portuguese_D

    Here is Mik15 vs the other ancient Greek samples:

    He is very close to Minoans, which we know are mostly Anatolian_N with about 15% CHG/IN. There is no way Algerian_Jews are composed of that admixture. We can't really compare these samples so much to modern populations, because the inferences made by doing so are bound to be false:

    Distance to: Mik15
    4.73667605 I2937
    5.72554801 I9129
    5.90445594 I9010
    7.59130424 Pta08
    7.62219785 I9128
    9.00139989 I9005
    9.35317593 I0074
    9.42462731 Kou01
    9.80234156 I0071
    11.08796194 I0073
    11.33379460 I0070
    11.56451901 I9130
    12.19090235 I9127
    12.45656453 I9131
    13.06872985 I9041
    13.70391915 I9006
    14.52259274 I9033
    15.10968564 Kou03
    18.59169438 I9123
    18.99046866 I2495
    22.03010667 I2499
    22.92758600 I2683
    25.84222707 Log02
    34.33169236 Log04

    Autosomal-wise Mik15 looks like a Minoan, with an additional small amount of Steppe. Again, there is no way Algerian_Jews or Moroccan_Jews look like that in terms of autosomal DNA. This is why we must be careful with these tools:



    All Minoan samples yield similar results.

    Minoan Moni Odigitira 2000 BC. This is known from 2017, looks reasonable to me considering location and relations over time. I don’t see anything misleading in these cases. Certainly there are other cases that might be misleading, so ingredients should be checked.

    Closest Modern.

    1. Algerian_Jewish (10.90)
    2. Italian_Jewish (12.46)
    3. Tunisian_Jewish (13.79)
    4. Libyan_Jewish (15.23)
    5. South_Italian (16.78)
    6. Maltese (17.77)
    7. West_Sicilian (18.49)
    8. East_Sicilian (19.64)



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    Last edited by blevins13; 14-05-21 at 16:14.

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    Do we have ancient Jewish autosomal DNA?
    Were they mostly Anatolian_N ? How would they compare to these Minoan samples? What about Phoenician autosomal (they were moving around, and could have been a vector of transmission)?
    “Man cannot live without a permanent trust in something indestructible in himself, and at the same time that indestructible something as well as his trust in it may remain permanently concealed from him.”

    Franz Kafka

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    On the other hand, I'm rather inclined to believe that the peoples from which Log02 and Log04 originate are not the true carriers of the ancient Greek language (or that they are secondary). More likely they are the carriers of that portion of steppic DNA that later diluted into the Minoan substrate, giving rise to the Mycenaeans proper a few centuries later.
    I'd be more willing to bet that the bulk of the Mycenaean language (and culture) is probably an inheritance that came mainly from Anatolia/Caucasus, perhaps on a par with the language of the Minoans (already several scholars had gone so far as to speculate that there were extremely ancient Caucasian or Anatolian Indo-European languages behind the mysterious Linear A itself). I'm thinking of various statistical and glottochronological models according to which the Greek language, although much later, still remains quite close to that of the Hittites, which at the time is considered the most archaic of the family, and in any case quite distinct from the superclade of other linguistic families carried into continental Europe by the Yamnaya and their Corded-Ware or related heirs.


    This may imply, if we want to save the day, that the Indo-Europeanisation of the archaic Greek world is perhaps the result of two combined directions (Eastern Model + Northern Model mentioned by Lazaridis a few years ago), overlapping and alternating over centuries or even millennia, which like a pincer imposed itself and infiltrated the Neolithic and Minoan substrate.


    Warning: I'm NOT referring to Renfrew's old hypothesis about the Indo-Europeanisation of the continent through Neolithic expansion, but to an archaic Indo-European proto-component different from the steppic one and initially distinct from the Neolithic farmers - composed mostly of CHG - and located perhaps between the inner Caucasus and Iran that continued to operate and ravage the region in a substantially autonomous way from the steppe peoples (a part of this component in earlier periods joined with the EHG to form the Yamnaya proper).


    It is a hypothesis that could hold together the linguistic and genetic data (an Indo-European language showing some important divergences from the other families + ancient Indo-European peoples of the Anatolian and Aegean region who at the time of their peak were characterised by a very modest genetic signal from the steppe)

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ailchu View Post
    the fits are bad for everyone so it could be correct. it's maybe just that all other populations are so far away from them now so that jewish populations are closest.
    the thing is maybe that the "levantine farmer" ancestry is not differentiated strong enough from anatolian farmer/CHG to pull jewish people, who also have anatolian_N/CHG further away than the other populations who also have different admixtures.
    I don't have Algerian_Jews, but Moroccan_jews are quite different from minoans in autosomal DNA

    Minoans are mostly Anatolian_N with a bit of CHG, as demonstrated by the study of this thread.

    Moroccon_Jews are as such:



    They are different too, Natufian is very different from CHG as demonstrated by PCA analysis:



    Also there are other exotic admixture in them which make Moroccan_Jews different as well.

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    What makes Natufians different primarily is 27% Talforat-like (Ancient North African) admixture:


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    Quote Originally Posted by Stuvanè View Post
    On the other hand, I'm rather inclined to believe that the peoples from which Log02 and Log04 originate are not the true carriers of the ancient Greek language (or that they are secondary). More likely they are the carriers of that portion of steppic DNA that later diluted into the Minoan substrate, giving rise to the Mycenaeans proper a few centuries later.
    I'd be more willing to bet that the bulk of the Mycenaean language (and culture) is probably an inheritance that came mainly from Anatolia/Caucasus, perhaps on a par with the language of the Minoans (already several scholars had gone so far as to speculate that there were extremely ancient Caucasian or Anatolian Indo-European languages behind the mysterious Linear A itself). I'm thinking of various statistical and glottochronological models according to which the Greek language, although much later, still remains quite close to that of the Hittites, which at the time is considered the most archaic of the family, and in any case quite distinct from the superclade of other linguistic families carried into continental Europe by the Yamnaya and their Corded-Ware or related heirs.


    This may imply, if we want to save the day, that the Indo-Europeanisation of the archaic Greek world is perhaps the result of two combined directions (Eastern Model + Northern Model mentioned by Lazaridis a few years ago), overlapping and alternating over centuries or even millennia, which like a pincer imposed itself and infiltrated the Neolithic and Minoan substrate.


    Warning: I'm NOT referring to Renfrew's old hypothesis about the Indo-Europeanisation of the continent through Neolithic expansion, but to an archaic Indo-European proto-component different from the steppic one and initially distinct from the Neolithic farmers - composed mostly of CHG - and located perhaps between the inner Caucasus and Iran that continued to operate and ravage the region in a substantially autonomous way from the steppe peoples (a part of this component in earlier periods joined with the EHG to form the Yamnaya proper).


    It is a hypothesis that could hold together the linguistic and genetic data (an Indo-European language showing some important divergences from the other families + ancient Indo-European peoples of the Anatolian and Aegean region who at the time of their peak were characterised by a very modest genetic signal from the steppe)
    Check this out Stuvane. https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...guistics-V8-I1

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stuvanè View Post
    On the other hand, I'm rather inclined to believe that the peoples from which Log02 and Log04 originate are not the true carriers of the ancient Greek language (or that they are secondary). More likely they are the carriers of that portion of steppic DNA that later diluted into the Minoan substrate, giving rise to the Mycenaeans proper a few centuries later.
    I'd be more willing to bet that the bulk of the Mycenaean language (and culture) is probably an inheritance that came mainly from Anatolia/Caucasus, perhaps on a par with the language of the Minoans (already several scholars had gone so far as to speculate that there were extremely ancient Caucasian or Anatolian Indo-European languages behind the mysterious Linear A itself). I'm thinking of various statistical and glottochronological models according to which the Greek language, although much later, still remains quite close to that of the Hittites, which at the time is considered the most archaic of the family, and in any case quite distinct from the superclade of other linguistic families carried into continental Europe by the Yamnaya and their Corded-Ware or related heirs.


    This may imply, if we want to save the day, that the Indo-Europeanisation of the archaic Greek world is perhaps the result of two combined directions (Eastern Model + Northern Model mentioned by Lazaridis a few years ago), overlapping and alternating over centuries or even millennia, which like a pincer imposed itself and infiltrated the Neolithic and Minoan substrate.


    Warning: I'm NOT referring to Renfrew's old hypothesis about the Indo-Europeanisation of the continent through Neolithic expansion, but to an archaic Indo-European proto-component different from the steppic one and initially distinct from the Neolithic farmers - composed mostly of CHG - and located perhaps between the inner Caucasus and Iran that continued to operate and ravage the region in a substantially autonomous way from the steppe peoples (a part of this component in earlier periods joined with the EHG to form the Yamnaya proper).


    It is a hypothesis that could hold together the linguistic and genetic data (an Indo-European language showing some important divergences from the other families + ancient Indo-European peoples of the Anatolian and Aegean region who at the time of their peak were characterised by a very modest genetic signal from the steppe)
    Very well though out post by the way.


    Figure 25

    MLE tree with bootstrap scores (NJ start tree)
    Citation: Indo-European Linguistics 8, 1 (2020) ; 10.1163/22125892-20201000




    Your theory adds ideas in my mind about possible early Indo European expansions. A not yet published possible l283 sample in Moldova could be as old as 6000 years, since it is speculated it is from the Eneolithic. Which for my own clade changes the whole picture. Albeit we have to wait for them to publish such a paper after 2 years of the leak.

    Considering the old basal L283 are found around North Caucasus, next to the steppes, as well as considering L283* is found in a Modern Armenian, and J was around Zargos early on, you theory in my mind has some circumstantial, albeit weak support.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Do we have ancient Jewish autosomal DNA?
    Were they mostly Anatolian_N ? How would they compare to these Minoan samples? What about Phoenician autosomal (they were moving around, and could have been a vector of transmission)?
    The study of which this thread is based on has dismissed this possiblity:

    Other proposed migrations, such as settlement by Egyptian or Phoenician colonists22 are not discernible in our data, as there is no measurable Levantine or African influence in the Minoans and Myceneans, thus rejecting the hypothesis that the cultures of the Aegean were seeded by migrants from the old civilizations of these regions.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5565772/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    The study of which this thread is based on has dismissed this possiblity:
    Which possibility?

    Oh I just saw the quote.

    Yeah I wasn't talking about that. Was asking what Ancient Jews and Phoenician auDNA composition is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    I don't have Algerian_Jews, but Moroccan_jews are quite different from minoans in autosomal DNA

    Minoans are mostly Anatolian_N with a bit of CHG, as demonstrated by the study of this thread.

    Moroccon_Jews are as such:



    They are different too, Natufian is very different from CHG as demonstrated by PCA analysis:



    Also there are other exotic admixture in them which make Moroccan_Jews different as well.

    sure, but how different is Natufian to CHG or Anatolian_N relative to the distances that exist between CHG/Anatolian_N/WHG/EHG? the Natufian in Jewish people might not pull them as far away from Minoans as the other admxtures that nowadays are present in other populations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailchu View Post
    sure, but how different is Natufian to CHG or Anatolian_N relative to the distances that exist between CHG/Anatolian_N/WHG/EHG?
    Distance to: Early_Neolithic_Anatolia_(n=7)
    49.01237089 Epipaleolithic_Levant_(Natufians)_(n=6)

    Distance to: Epipaleolithic_Mesolithic_Caucasus_(CHG)_(n=2)
    75.82553396 Epipaleolithic_Levant_(Natufians)_(n=6)

    Distance to: Early_Neolithic_Anatolia_(n=7)
    61.35627678 Epipaleolithic_Mesolithic_Caucasus_(CHG)_(n=2)

    Distance to: Mesolithic_West_Europeans_(WHG)_(n=21)
    95.20301938 Epipaleolithic_Mesolithic_Caucasus_(CHG)_(n=2)

    These populations are extremely different from one another.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Which possibility?

    Oh I just saw the quote.

    Yeah I wasn't talking about that. Was asking what Ancient Jews and Phoenician auDNA composition is.
    Ancient DNA of Phoenician remains indicates discontinuity in the settlement history of Ibiza
    accession numbers: MH43585-43559
    It seems the author of this study hasn't yet uploaded the data files. I e-mailed him about it in the past, but thus far no response. I can't tell you personally, but the information is out there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Distance to: Early_Neolithic_Anatolia_(n=7)
    49.01237089 Epipaleolithic_Levant_(Natufians)_(n=6)

    Distance to: Epipaleolithic_Mesolithic_Caucasus_(CHG)_(n=2)
    75.82553396 Epipaleolithic_Levant_(Natufians)_(n=6)

    Distance to: Early_Neolithic_Anatolia_(n=7)
    61.35627678 Epipaleolithic_Mesolithic_Caucasus_(CHG)_(n=2)

    Distance to: Mesolithic_West_Europeans_(WHG)_(n=21)
    95.20301938 Epipaleolithic_Mesolithic_Caucasus_(CHG)_(n=2)

    These populations are extremely different from one another.

    and isn't this a possible explanation why modern jewish people might be the closest to minoans? populations in europe might be admixed more with EHG/CHG/WHG who btw are all further away from the Minoans main component Anatolia_N, than Natufian is, according to these results.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailchu View Post
    and isn't this a possible explanation why modern jewish people might be the closest to minoans? populations in europe might be admixed more with EHG/CHG/WHG who btw are all further away from the Minoans main component Anatolia_N, than Natufian is, according to these results.
    No, I have already demonstrated in the graphic that they have a different autosomal admixture.

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    I find it quite remarkable that Log02 and Log04, two Middle Bronze Age inhabitants from the same settlement do not genetically overlap. This indicates to me that one of the two may be mixed. If we look more closely, then we can notice that Log02 plots half way between Log 04 to the Mycenaeans of the Early Bronze Age. Furthermore, in between we can find the Late Bronze Age sample from Crete (Armenoi) which chronologically is very close to the Iron Age and significantly closer to the Northern Greek samples than the Mycenaens. Crete_Armenoi (I9123) plots somewhere between Log02 and Minoans.

    This clearly indicates that there is a migration North to South during the Bronze Age. So there was intermixture in the North of Greece and starting the Middle Bronze Age there was intermixture in the South of Greece and Crete.
    EBA.MBA.GR.jpg
    Last edited by Dianatomia; 15-05-21 at 13:58.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    No, I have already demonstrated in the graphic that they have a different autosomal admixture.
    there is no modern population that has the same autosomal admixture as minoans.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailchu View Post
    there is no modern population that has the same autosomal admixture as minoans.
    Indeed, which is why we need to be careful when comparing them to modern populations.

    I would say, that they are at least part of the ancestry of some modern populations though. However small it may be.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Indeed, which is why we need to be careful when comparing them to modern populations.
    why that? we constantly compare populations who have different autosomal profiles. which population do you think is closest to minoans and why? they will also have different "exotic" admixtures that explain their pull away from minoans.

    if the distances you posted are correct you probably need way less WHG-admixture for example to be pulled away from minoans the same distance as someone who has natufian admixture.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ailchu View Post
    why that? we constantly compare populations who have different autosomal profiles. which population do you think is closest to minoans and why? they will also have different "exotic" admixtures that explain their pull away from minoans.

    if the distances you posted are correct you probably need way less WHG-admixture for example to be pulled away from minoans the same distance as someone who has natufian admixture.
    You answered your own question in the previous post, of which I agreed with. There is no modern population that has the same admixture rates as Minoans. Also, there is no WHG or Natufian in Minoans, so that point is moot. Minoans are however ancestral to some modern populations, for example Modern Greeks.

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